IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                 FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
 Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
     Plaintiff,
 vs.
 TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH,
     Defendant.
 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
                      REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
                 (Trial to Jury - Volume 140)
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
         Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 1:31 p.m., on the 9th day of June,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.







 Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
  Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
    P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
                          APPEARANCES
         PATRICK M. RYAN, United States Attorney for the
Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400,
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
         JOSEPH H. HARTZLER, LARRY A. MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON,
SCOTT MENDELOFF, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, AITAN GOELMAN, and VICKI
BEHENNA, Special Attorneys to the U.S. Attorney General, 1961
Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver, Colorado, 80294, appearing
for the plaintiff.
         STEPHEN JONES, ROBERT NIGH, JR., RICHARD BURR, RANDALL
COYNE, AMBER McLAUGHLIN, and STEVEN ENGLAND, Attorneys at Law,
Jones, Wyatt & Roberts, 999 18th Street, Suite 2460, Denver,
Colorado, 80202; JERALYN MERRITT, 303 East 17th Avenue, Suite
400, Denver, Colorado, 80203; MANDY WELCH, Attorney at Law, 412
Main, Suite 1150, Houston, Texas, 77002; CHERYL A. RAMSEY,
Attorney at Law, Szlichta and Ramsey, 8 Main Place, Post Office
Box 1206, Stillwater, Oklahoma, 74076, and CHRISTOPHER L.
TRITICO, Attorney at Law, Essmyer, Tritico & Clary, 4300
Scotland, Houston, Texas, 77007, appearing for Defendant
McVeigh.
                         *  *  *  *  *
                          PROCEEDINGS
    (Reconvened at 1:31 p.m.)
         THE COURT:  Be seated, please.
         We have this affidavit which has been marked A1, which
I've reviewed.
         And, Mr. Hartzler, you've now reviewed it?
         MR. HARTZLER:  We have.  Mr. Mackey is prepared to
address it.
         THE COURT:  All right.  There are two sentences that I
think clearly should come out, the last two sentences on the
first full paragraph of the first page.  I don't believe this
jury should be informed about that.
         What else?  Do you have other problems with it?
         Also, I would give a limiting instruction with it,
which I have prepared.  Let me give you this because it might
facilitate it.
         All right.  Let me ask the defense if you have any
objection to the limiting instruction.
         MR. JONES:  I don't have any objection to this
instruction, your Honor.  I think it is appropriate.
         THE COURT:  All right.  Now, Mr. Mackey?
         MR. MACKEY:  Your Honor, I think this affidavit --
proposed affidavit goes far beyond the solution that the Court
crafted at one of our hearings last week; and that is,
following the Court's language in the instruction, simply to
serve as a foundation for the testimony of two of the
witnesses.  What I would propose is the affidavit would be
rewritten in such a fashion that it does that and nothing more,
simply lists those exhibits that according to Tim McVeigh's
affidavit he had seen or read or been exposed to on or about
the dates of the publications.
         There are a number of paragraphs and sentences that go
beyond simply foundation, that predicate fact and talk about
where he was on certain days, where he was on the day, for
example, of April 19, how he reacted to news accounts.  There
is a tremendous amount of testimony that is woven into the
affidavit itself.
         So back to the Court's solution, I think the affidavit
ought to be redrawn in such a way that it is nothing more than
a listing of those exhibits that Mr. McVeigh has seen.
         In that regard, even taking the affidavit to be
facially accurate, your Honor, it does not list all of the
exhibits that the two defense witnesses intend to testify
about, at least according to disclosure.  There are at least 15
exhibits that Mr. Reavis and Mr. Pate are listed as being
responsible for that according to Mr. McVeigh's affidavit he's
not seen or read or been exposed to.  So even the foundational
objective seems to have missed the mark as well.  I don't think
this is going to be a matter that we'll get to yet today, but
I'd ask the Court to urge the defense to redraw the affidavit
in a much more narrow fashion consistent with the Court's
direction and instruction.
         THE COURT:  Well, I agree that some of it is
testimonial and not foundational.
         Do you intend to get to these exhibits and witnesses
today?
         MR. JONES:  It is possible, your Honor, that Mr. Pate
may testify this afternoon, but I don't know that we would
finish with him.  I think he's the ninth witness for the
afternoon.  Mr. Reavis I feel quite certain would not testify
until tomorrow because he comes after Mr. Pate.

         THE COURT:  Is Mr. Pate Soldier of Fortune?
         MR. JONES:  Yes, sir, but all he's going to do is
identify the articles as written by him and address certain
writings of Mr. McVeigh, which I don't think there's any
dispute that Mr. McVeigh wrote them because some of them are
items that the Government has introduced into evidence.  But
he's not going to -- his testimony is not like that of
Mr. Reavis who will be on the stand for several hours.
         THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, we'll discuss the affidavit
further at 5:00.
         All right.  Let's bring in the jury.
    (Jury in at 1:37 p.m.)
         THE COURT:  Members of the jury, we apologize for
keeping you waiting this last several minutes, but I had
several matters to discuss with counsel, and we needed to do
that outside of your hearing, and that's why we were delayed a
few minutes.
         We're ready to proceed now with the next witness.
         MS. WELCH:  Lynn Drzyzga.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right
hand, please.
    (Lynn Drzyzga affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         THE WITNESS:  Yes.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you state your full name
for the record and spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  Lynn Drzyzga.  Last name is spelled
D-R-Z-Y-Z-G-A.
         THE COURT:  I think we're going to need to have you
speak a little more into the microphone.
         THE WITNESS:  Sorry.
         THE COURT:  Thank you.
         Miss Welch.
         MS. WELCH:  Thank you, your Honor.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WELCH:
Q.  Good afternoon, Miss Drzyzga.
A.  Hi.
Q.  How are you?
A.  Nervous.
Q.  Are you a little nervous?  Can you lean over just a little
bit toward the microphone and you won't have to worry about
speaking up.


                     Lynn Drzyzga - Direct
A.  Yes.
Q.  That's perfect.  Thank you.  Can you tell us where you are
living now?
A.  In Amherst, New York.
Q.  In Amherst, New York?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Is that a suburb of Buffalo?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Now, have you always lived there?
A.  No, I lived in Pendleton.
Q.  That's -- Pendleton is outside of Buffalo?
A.  Correct, that's a suburb.
Q.  Go ahead, I'm sorry.
A.  It's a suburb in another county.
Q.  And that's a rural area, isn't it?
A.  Correct.
Q.  When did you move to Amherst?
A.  1992.
Q.  And how long had you lived in the Pendleton area before
that?
A.  16 years.
Q.  You have two sons; is that right?
A.  Correct.
Q.  And do you know Timothy McVeigh?
A.  Yes, I do.


                     Lynn Drzyzga - Direct
Q.  Is he the same age as your oldest son?
A.  He's a year older.
Q.  Do you remember how old Mr. McVeigh was when you first met
him?
A.  Yes, I do.  He was nine.
Q.  Nine years old?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Can you recall the circumstances of meeting him?
A.  He was playing with my son.  He was another child in the
neighborhood.  And he and my son dug my car out twice during
the blizzard of '77.
Q.  That was a pretty bad blizzard.
A.  Absolutely.
Q.  How far from the McVeighs did you live?
A.  Four houses down on the same side of the road.
Q.  So I imagine Tim was over there quite a bit, wasn't he?
A.  Yes, off and on, yes.
Q.  Did your children and Tim play together for -- regularly,
frequently?
A.  Yes, when they were smaller, yes.
Q.  Did Tim become quite comfortable at your home?
A.  Yes, he did.
Q.  Would you tell us a little bit about that.
A.  Well, we were very strict parents, and Tim would come over;
and I think he enjoyed the family unity that we had, and we


                     Lynn Drzyzga - Direct
enjoyed including him.
Q.  What do you remember about Tim as a small boy?
A.  He was very active, always on the go and wanted to do
things.
Q.  Anything stand out in your mind?
A.  He was very friendly and easy to like, and I just enjoyed
having him around.
Q.  Did you ever have problems with him going barefooted?
A.  I certainly did.
Q.  Would you tell us about that.
A.  Well, Tim enjoyed running down the road barefooted, and I'm
kind of particular about my housekeeping, so one day he did
come down, and he was sitting on the couch, and I noticed the
bottom of his feet were very black.  And I said, Tim, you're
welcome, but you must put on a pair of socks if you're going to
stay.  And it became a routine thing, when Tim would arrive
barefooted, either I would supply the socks or he would.  And
sometimes he left with them, and sometimes he left them there.
Q.  Did he ever do anything to indicate to you how much that
meant to him?
A.  Yes.  Years later when he was a young man, he arrived at
the door, and this time he didn't run down the road, he drove
in the driveway; and when he knocked on the door, he goes, Hi,
Mrs. D, and there was socks on his shoulder.  That meant --
that was special.


                     Lynn Drzyzga - Direct
Q.  How did Tim -- well, let me back up.
         You mentioned that you were pretty strict with your
children?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Can you go into that a little bit more.
A.  They had curfews, we had to know where they were going, who
they were going with, and we enforced it.  They said they were
going to a neighbor and we called and they weren't there, then
we felt that they weren't honest with us and we had to deal
with it.
Q.  When Tim was with your children or at your house, how did
you -- did you treat him with the same kind of strictness and
discipline?
A.  I certainly did.
Q.  Could you tell us how he responded to that.
A.  If he did something that I did not approve of because I
wouldn't even let my own boys do it, I would give him a
tongue-lashing as well.
Q.  And how did he respond?
A.  Okay, Mrs. D, and he respected my wishes.
Q.  He called you Mrs. D; is that right?
A.  He did.
Q.  Do you recall things that Tim did over the years that you
felt really demonstrated his caring and concern for you?
A.  Yes.  Three come to mind.


                     Lynn Drzyzga - Direct
         One, when Tim was probably 12, I believe, he was
having a garage sale.  And he came running down the road and up
the driveway and knocked on the door and said, Mrs. D, I have
something for you.  And it was a little tin with a flip lid.
And Tim knew I collected tins; and instead of selling it in his
garage sale, he brought it to me, and I still have it today;
and it's quite special for a little fellow to do that.  So I
knew he must have cared something.
Q.  And sort of making money at things like that was pretty
important to Tim, wasn't it?
A.  Right.  That's why it made it extra special, because he
gave it to me, he didn't ask me to pay for it, even though I
collected tins.
Q.  You said three things stood out.
A.  Oh, I'm sorry.
         I don't remember mentioning, but one Christmas Tim
came to the house and he bought me a box of chocolate-covered
cherries, which is my favorite candy; and for the life of me, I
don't remember telling him that, but somehow he knew it and he
presented it to me.
Q.  Your family is not much into guns, is it?
A.  No, we're not.
Q.  How do you feel about guns?
A.  I have nothing . . . I don't fear guns because I do have
people in my family that are policemen, and I've seen them wear


                     Lynn Drzyzga - Direct
them.  I just knew nothing about them, and I just preferred not
to have them in my home when it wasn't warranted on a visit; so
I just felt that they shouldn't be there.
Q.  Were you aware of Tim's interest in guns?
A.  Absolutely.
Q.  And was he aware of your feelings about guns?
A.  Yes, I made it very clear.  And he respected them when he
did come to the house.
Q.  Did you ever talk with Tim about politics?
A.  Nothing more than I was complaining about paying my income
tax and couldn't find a receipt, similar things like that, but
nothing else that I can recall.
Q.  You don't remember having any conversations that would
indicate that Tim held antigovernment feelings during the time
that you knew him?
A.  Absolutely not.
Q.  Now, you're aware that after a few years after high school,
Tim joined the Army?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Did you stay in touch with him after he went into the
military?
A.  Yes, I did.  I wrote to him.
Q.  Did you see him during that time?
A.  Tim stopped by to see us before he left and spent quite a
lengthy time.  And as Tim was leaving, I followed him to -- we


                     Lynn Drzyzga - Direct
had a garage connected to the house --
Q.  Now, is this -- is this before he went into the military,
or is this before he went away to the Gulf War?
A.  Oh, the Gulf War, pardon me.
Q.  So this was after he had been in the military for a short
while?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And you said he visited with you and your husband?
A.  Correct.
Q.  For quite a while.
A.  Yes.
Q.  And did you have a private conversation with him before he
left?
A.  Yes.  I followed Tim out to our garage, which was connected
to the house, and for some reason, my husband stayed behind;
and I just wished him well and told him I knew how hard it was.
And he started down the stairs, and I was sitting on the stoop;
and he turned around and he said, Mrs. D, I'm coming home in a
body bag.
         I cried, and I said, No, you're not.  You must get
those thoughts out of your mind.  Tears welled up in his eyes.
He hugged me, and he walked away very slow.  And that was just
like my own son was leaving at that moment.
Q.  Did you do anything to sort of express how you felt about
him going to war?


                     Lynn Drzyzga - Direct
A.  Yes, I did.  At that time everyone was putting yellow
ribbons on trees.  We didn't have an oak tree, but we had a
maple tree, so I stuck a big, yellow ribbon on it; and no one
in the neighborhood knew who the yellow ribbons were for but
Tim and I, and I told them that it would stay there till he
returned.  And when he returned, the ribbons came down.
Q.  Do you recall when he did get back from the Gulf?
A.  I can't recall, I'm sorry.
Q.  You can't remember when.  You mentioned that Easter, Easter
of the year that Tim got out of the Gulf.
A.  Well, Tim was still there.  And Easter came along.  And I
always knew that Tim liked Cadbury eggs.
Q.  And what are Cadbury eggs?
A.  They're chocolate eggs with a filling that usually they
only sell in stores around Eastertime.  So I bought a dozen of
them, and I put them in the freezer.  And when Tim -- I knew
Tim was going to stop by again.  When, I didn't know.  So he
did.  And when he was talking to my husband, I went to the
freezer, and I put these frozen eggs into a big bowl and
presented it to him.  And he had this big smile.  And he put
one in his mouth, but it was a hard egg, and I made him happy.
He went through so much, and that meant a lot to me.
Q.  Did you see him after he returned home?
A.  Yes.
Q.  I'm sorry, you just were talking about the time he came


                     Lynn Drzyzga - Direct
over.  Did you talk to him after he came home about being in
the Gulf?
A.  Yes, very briefly.  He would not go into detail other
than -- I was more interested in the sand dunes and these
machines he was driving around, how they worked, and it was
kind of that type of conversation.
Q.  And that would have been sometime in '91.  And then Tim
left the Army at the end of '91 and came back to New York
around 1992.
         Do you remember seeing him after he left New York at
the end of '92?
A.  No.  The last time I saw Tim was either late June or early
July of 1992.
Q.  And what was that occasion?
A.  We had moved to -- out of Pendleton, into the Amherst
suburb, and he stopped over on his way to work just to say hi
and see how we were doing.  The visit lasted about 10 minutes,
and he was on his way to work.
Q.  Did you correspond with Tim while he was in the Gulf?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  After he left New York, did you correspond with him?
A.  I did one other time.  It was quite a lengthy time that I
hadn't heard from him, so I called Bill McVeigh, Tim's mom --
or Tim's dad, and said, Do you have Tim's latest address?  I'd
like to contact him.  So Bill gave me the address, and I did


                     Lynn Drzyzga - Direct
write to Tim.
Q.  And did you hear back from him?
A.  Once, yes.  I did.
Q.  Did he write you a letter?
A.  No, he did not.  He sent me a tape of Waco with an outline,
couple pages of typed outline with little notes in the margin
explaining the tape that I was going to view of Waco.
Q.  Was this sometime toward the end of 1993?
A.  To be honest with you, I'm not sure, but it --
Q.  Do you recall how long after the Waco incident that it was?
A.  I've been trying to think about that, and I can't come up
with an answer, I'm sorry.
Q.  Were you familiar with what had happened at Waco at that
time?
A.  I was, because I watched it on TV.
Q.  Did you follow it at all?
A.  Not any more than any other story.
Q.  And did you watch the tape?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  Do you recall what your reaction was?
A.  I saw this on TV.  I mean it just did not present anything
that I did not see on TV in either a clip on a newscast or the
tape that was being run over and over and over again.
Q.  Let me make sure I'm understanding you.  You're saying that
what was in the video were clips of things that you had seen on


                     Lynn Drzyzga - Direct
TV and they were repeated on the video?
A.  Nothing was -- well -- what was on TV was what I saw in the
tape.  Yes.
Q.  Based on your association with Tim as he was growing up and
the contact that you had with him, can you tell us what kind of
person he was.
A.  He was friendly, he cared, and he always showed feeling in
his own way.  And I think that's how we started to build a
relationship and respect each other, because he would stop over
whether my boys were home or not.  And that was kind of
special.
Q.  So you had a relationship with Tim that was special to you
separate from his friendship with your son?
A.  Correct.
Q.  And is that also true of Tim and Mr. D?
A.  Yes.  They were more on a guy type of talk, and Tim and
I -- I mean we'd play Scrabble together.  He would help me with
a puzzle once in a while.  I would do those big puzzles with
the big pieces, and we'd just sit around and talk, have
something cold to drink, and he was off again.  His visits
weren't really all that long, but they were cherished.
Q.  How do you feel about him today?
A.  Tim is my friend, and I will always cherish all our
memories because I think it was a relationship that was special
because it was my son's friend and I was a mom, and really


                     Lynn Drzyzga - Direct
friendships like that do not come along, and that's why I feel
it is so special.
         MS. WELCH:  Thank you.
         THE WITNESS:  You're welcome.
         MS. WELCH:  I have no further questions, your Honor.
         Mr. Mackey.
         MR. MACKEY:  Nothing.
         THE COURT:  You're excusing the witness, then?
         MS. WELCH:  Yes.
         THE COURT:  You are excused.  You may step down.
         THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  Next, please.
         MS. WELCH:  Richard Drzyzga.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right
hand, please.
    (Richard Drzyzga affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  Richard Drzyzga, and it's spelled
D-R-Z-Y-Z-G-A.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  Proceed, Ms. Welch.
         MS. WELCH:  Thank you, your Honor.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION


                    Richard Drzyzga - Direct
BY MS. WELCH:
Q.  Good afternoon, Mr. Drzyzga.
A.  Good afternoon.
Q.  How are you this afternoon?
A.  Uptight, nervous.
Q.  I'm a little bit that way, too.
         The woman that just testified, Lynn Drzyzga, is that
your wife?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And I assume that you also live in Amherst?
A.  I hope so.  Yes.  Yes, I do.
Q.  And you and Mrs. Drzyzga lived in Pendleton for quite a few
years before you moved to Amherst; is that right?
A.  16 years, yes.
Q.  What is your occupation?
A.  I'm in the insurance industry.  I'm part of an organization
that works with agents of other companies, and we broker out
product and assist agents.  And I teach continuing education in
several of the local colleges for insurance professionals so
they can keep up their licenses and such.
Q.  Do you know Timothy McVeigh?
A.  Yes, I do.
Q.  And you've known him since he was a young boy; is that
right?
A.  Since about eight or nine.  When we moved into Pendleton, I


                    Richard Drzyzga - Direct
believe he and his parents had either just moved in or . . .
our boys were close to the same age.  We have two sons.  One's
a year younger than Tim and the other one's about three years
younger.  They rode the same school bus, and so consequently we
got to know Tim.
Q.  Can you tell me what Tim was like as a young boy.
A.  Great kid.  Funny.  Always, always cheerful, always looking
for a laugh.  He would . . . he would con a little bit.
Q.  In what way?
A.  Well, my wife and I were very strict.  We ran our household
very strict, and our boys sometimes didn't like it.  All right.
Tim came from a household that probably wasn't as strict.
Probably there's not another household on the street that was
as strict as us.
         So when our boys couldn't do something and they wanted
to, you know, it was like Tim and they would get together and
come up with some kind of a plan or excuse to try to get us to
change our mind.
Q.  So he would try to get you to let your sons do things he
wanted to do --
A.  Yeah.
Q.  -- that you didn't normally let them do?
A.  But it was just normal kid stuff.
Q.  Did that gradually change?
A.  Yeah, because Tim learned quickly that our rules didn't


                    Richard Drzyzga - Direct
change.  They were there.  They're fair, but they didn't
change.  And what was good for one was good for everybody.
         In fact, I can remember one of the major . . . 
discourses that he had with my wife.  The boys had to always
take their shoes off -- not only the little boys, the big boys,
too -- when we came into the house.
Q.  Yeah, Mrs. Drzyzga told us about the white socks.
A.  Oh, okay.
Q.  Was that quite a -- quite a story in your home; you
remember that?
A.  Well, what brought it to heart was years later, okay, when
Tim came for a visit; and there he was with his boots on and
everything else, and he was a man.  He wasn't a little boy
anymore.  And he walked up to the house with the white socks
over his shoulder, and he just asked if he could come in.  I
mean he learned the rules, didn't object to them; and once he
got to know the rules, he played by them.
Q.  Do you remember what Tim's interests were when he was in
school, in high school?
A.  Oh, in high school.  Well -- That was about the time that
he was working at Burger King with my son.
Q.  Was he into computers?
A.  Very much so.  Very much so.  In fact, I thought that he
was going to make a career out of it.  And when he graduated
from high school -- and he graduated, you know, with some


                    Richard Drzyzga - Direct
pretty good marks -- I was surprised that he didn't immediately
move into that direction, all right?  For some reason Tim just
didn't want to proceed or go on, and --
Q.  You said that he worked with your son at Burger King?
A.  Yeah.  Yeah.
Q.  How long did they work together?
A.  I don't know, my son worked there for about three -- three
years.  And I don't think Tim worked there for the full length
of time because then he transferred to another store up in
Lockport, but it was still Burger King.
Q.  What kind of worker was Tim?
A.  He never worked under me, so I couldn't really say.  But I
never heard anything negative.
Q.  Are you aware of Tim's interest in guns?
A.  Yep, always was.
Q.  And Mrs. Drzyzga said that your family didn't share that
interest and really didn't have guns around.
A.  Right, we don't have guns in the house.  We never allowed
guns in the house, and Tim was aware of that.
Q.  Did there --
A.  That was one of the rules we had, by the way.
Q.  And he followed that rule?
A.  To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Q.  Did a time come when he asked you to sign for a gun permit
for him?


                    Richard Drzyzga - Direct
A.  Yes.  Yeah.  He was working for a security firm at the
time, and he approached me and he asked me if I would be a
party to sign.  He needed three signatures.
Q.  In New York you needed three signatures for the permit?
A.  For the permit.  In New York there's two types of permits.
Okay.  There's a carrying permit and just a permit to, for
target practice and such.  And this was supposed to be for a
carrying permit.  Okay.
Q.  And did you agree to sign it?
A.  Well, I told him this:  I had no problem, you know, with
him and his guns.  Okay?  I just said I want to find out why he
needed the permit signed because this was for a carrying
permit.  Okay.  And I would have done this for anybody that
would have asked me.  Okay?  So I said, Give me your
supervisor's name, because he told it was job related.  I said,
Let me call your supervisor; if your supervisor says, yes, this
is so, you've got my signature.
Q.  What kind of a job was it for?
A.  Well, it was armored car job, and he was going to be
promoted to a situation where he needed to have a gun, a
sidearm.
Q.  Did you ever talk politics with Tim?
A.  Not really.  At least not from his side.  We might have got
a few from my side.
Q.  What do you mean by that?


                    Richard Drzyzga - Direct
A.  Well, in my business, you know -- I was a financial
planner, still am.  You know, so I'm always working with people
on readjusting their finances so that they can limit their
taxes, so taxes was an issue.
Q.  So you might have expressed your opinions to him?
A.  Sure.
Q.  But you don't recall him expressing his opinions to you?
A.  No.
Q.  Do you remember how Tim was as an older teenager?
A.  Yeah, he was just an extension of what he was when he was a
younger kid.  The only thing is -- right after high school, he
started -- I'm not going to say floundering, because that's not
the right word.  He was undecided as to what he wanted to do
with the future.  And he was working for the armored car
company.  You know, and I kept prodding him because, you know,
he kept showing up at the house.  It was almost like a
father-and-son relationship, but it really wasn't.
         I just kept saying to him, I said, Tim, you've got to
do something with your life.  You've got to focus.  Why don't
you join the service, get into the military?  It's a perfect
solution for you.  You like weapons.  They can give you all the
weapons you want; and you can learn something besides, and
maybe you can bring something home and be useful in that
respect.
         And after doing that three or four times, to my


                    Richard Drzyzga - Direct
surprise, Tim come over one day and says, Guess what?  I joined
the Army.
         I said, Well, great.  Great.
Q.  And did you stay in touch with him after he went to the
Army, went into the military?
A.  Yes.  My wife wrote a couple letters.  I'm a terrible
letter writer.  I write in my business.  But as far as personal
letters, my wife calls me "the iceman."  She says I can't share
my emotions, I really don't know how to bring out myself, you
know, in the warm way, I guess.
Q.  But you did see Tim after he came back from the Gulf War,
didn't you?
A.  Well, we saw him before that.
Q.  You saw him while he was home --
A.  One time when he was on leave, and then another time
shortly before going over, he stopped over to the house.  He
was bringing his car back, because he didn't want to leave it
at Fort Riley.  And he stopped over to the house.  In fact, he
was there for a little while when he came over, he and my wife
had been talking.  It was not an unusual thing, because even
after our boys went away to school and were not present, Tim
felt very comfortable coming over and just sitting and talking.
And it was never anything serious, it was just chatting.
That's all it was.  But this time was a little bit different.
         Okay.  He was a few days away from having to be back


                    Richard Drzyzga - Direct
at Fort Riley, and he was going to be shipping overseas, and
there was a serious tone about him at the time, serious tone
because he was telling me about how the fact that he had to go
and rearrange his -- his will, you know, make sure that was in
order and they were talking about the insurances and everything
else and that they had meetings about, you know, some of his
guys weren't going to be coming back, and that kind of
concerned him, although he was trying to be brave and he kept a
stiff upper lip.
         It was a little later, really about the time that he
was leaving, that he told my wife that probably the next time
she'd see him, he'd be in a body bag, and she scolded him.  And
it brought tears to her eyes, and it's the first time I ever
saw tears in his eyes.
Q.  Did you talk to him again when he returned?
A.  Yes.  Yeah.  In fact, when he was gone, we put up yellow
ribbons.  Okay?  We had moved to the other end of the road, and
we were in a, almost like a new neighborhood; right.  But we
put up yellow ribbons on our tree and we wrote him to let him
know that the yellow ribbons wouldn't come down until he came
home.
         So the day he came home, I'm not sure it was the exact
same day, he came to the house, and we had the yellow-ribbon-
taking-down ceremony.  Okay?  And then he stayed for a while
and the boys came, and he was starting to share just a few


                    Richard Drzyzga - Direct
things that were going on, you know, in the Gulf, things that,
you know, he had seen.
Q.  I think you said there were two things that particularly
made an impression on you.
A.  Yes.  The one thing that really struck me was -- mean here
he was telling us about all the action that was going on and
the fact that there was a lot of carnage out there, that the
sights that we had on our tanks and equipment was so far
superior to what the Iraqis had, you know, that they could
actually see through the clouds of burning oil and everything.
It was a virtual turkey shoot; it was an unfair advantage.
Okay?  And coming from somebody that was pulling the trigger,
you know, that kind of struck me.
         But the other thing that struck me was the fact that
he had time in this three-day thing -- because it was a very
fast, you know, push through -- to notice the Iraqi kids.
There was an element of Iraqi people that were kind of
abandoned by the Iraqi government, and they were just kind of
floating out there and they were starving.  And as soldiers,
they couldn't do anything, either.  The U.S. government wasn't
allowed to do anything positive for these Iraqis, so that
really struck him just to see the kids kind of wandering around
and begging for food and them not really being able to do
anything.  It saddened him.
Q.  Did he talk about the Iraqi soldiers that they encountered?


                    Richard Drzyzga - Direct
A.  Yeah, he said that when they were coming out of the
trenches, he said these were like the dregs of the Iraqi Army.
It was almost like Hussein had sent, you know, everybody that
he didn't want left into those trenches because he knew they
were going to be virtually annihilated.
Q.  What do you know about his performance during the war?
A.  Only what, you know, we read and seen on TV.  And
supposedly it was superior.  He did, though, talk about one --
one situation about a time when he was in his Bradley, he was
in one of the lead vehicles, and he says there was some Iraqi
prisoners -- not prisoners, but Iraqi coming towards him.  And
it was in the heat of -- heat of action.  He took sight on
someone, pulled the trigger, and killed them.
Q.  Was he doing that in any way --
A.  No, he wasn't bragging about it.  In fact, I think his
emotion at that point was, you know, it was something that he
had to do, but he didn't feel good about doing it.
Q.  Did he brag about how he did in the Army or in the Gulf?
A.  No.  In fact, we did because we saw him on TV, you know,
standing in front of Schwarzkopf's tent, you know, when the
generals were having their discussions.  We thought that was
pretty good.
Q.  I think you told me there was one thing he bragged about.
Do you remember what that was?  Did he meet Tom Brokaw?
A.  Yes.  Yes.  In fact, that made a big impression on him


                    Richard Drzyzga - Direct
because when we were telling him about, you know, how proud we
were of him standing in front of the tent, he kind of dismissed
it like, you know, there was a bunch of other guys there, too.
But the fact that he met Tom Brokaw, shook his hand, made a big
impression.  I don't even know if they conversed.
Q.  Were you aware that after he came back home from the Gulf,
that he tried out for Special Forces?
A.  Well, I knew that Special Forces was something that he
wanted.  I didn't recall that he had gone through the tryout
until after he was home and he was talking about it.  He was
disappointed because he really -- I guess the time in the
desert from a physical standpoint kind of wore him down a
little bit.  Didn't have a chance to recoup his energies or
build himself back up for whatever test he had to go through to
get into the Special Forces.  And the only thing I knew was
that he washed out after a couple of days.
Q.  Based on your contact with Tim before the war and after,
did you have an opinion about whether or not his military
service had affected him?
A.  The amount of time that I saw him afterwards wasn't that
extensive.  Timings were brief, and I really couldn't say,
that, you know, I could see a dramatic change, one way or the
other.  In fact, it was hard to tell whether there was any kind
of change.  To me, Tim was Tim.

Q.  After he left New York, in -- at the end of '92, early '93,


                    Richard Drzyzga - Direct
did you hear from him?
A.  Well, there was a time that we didn't hear anything,
period.  All right.  And it wasn't unusual for us not to hear
anything from Tim for periods of time.  But it was never a
real, real long period.  But in this particular time, the
period just kind of extended itself to the point where my wife
and I talked and she decided to call Bill McVeigh to find out
what's going on with Tim.  All right?  And at that time he told
her that Tim had gone out West, out towards Arizona, looking
for work, you know, something better than what was offered
locally.
         And she said, Well, if you have an address, could you
please give it to me.
         He said, Well, here's the last address that I have.
It was in Kingman.  And consequently she wrote a letter and
sent out a picture of our son, our youngest son who had just
graduated from boot camp, because he's in the Air Force.  And
we're very proud of him.
Q.  And did you hear back from him?
A.  Yes.  It wasn't right away, but it was a little while
later.
Q.  Did you get a tape about Waco?
A.  Yes.  A package came, and in the package was a tape about
Waco.  Kind of like a mimeographed -- I'm not even going to say
a letter, just mimeographed sheet, step-by-step instructional


                    Richard Drzyzga - Direct
about putting the tape in, stopping it here, taking a good look
at this, taking a good look at that.  And along with that was
just a tiny, little note and a picture of our son that we sent
to Tim.
         And that kind of confused me.  It really confused me
because it was bent in half, and there was a little note and
the note said, Did you ever wonder why there's yellow fringes
on the flag?  And it was a question that I had no answer for.
I still don't.
Q.  And that was -- in that package was also a tape of -- about
Waco?
A.  Yes.  Yeah.
Q.  Do you remember how long after the Waco incident that you
received that?
A.  It was roughly around six months.
Q.  Did you watch the tape?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  Can you tell us what your reaction was.
A.  Well, it was the same thing that I saw on TV.  Okay?  The
tape that I was looking at was exactly what the news media was
putting on TV except as a watcher of the news on TV, it was
something that I just watched.  Okay?  And I said, Wow, you
know, because like anybody -- everybody else that watched what
was going on, we got enthralled in it.  This was exactly the
same thing, but when you stopped the tape and, you know, read


                    Richard Drzyzga - Direct
the little notations that were on the printed piece of material
and you focused on what it said, it kind of brought to light
what was really going on.
         And, yeah, it did make an impression on me.  But it
also scared me.  It scared me to the point that I turned to my
wife and -- my exact words were, What the hell's he gotten
into?
Q.  Were you worried about him at that point?
A.  Yes.  Because, again, it frightened me.  I mean because the
tape was basically focused as a denial -- a government denial.
Okay?  It wasn't that the people in Waco were the culprits.  It
was that the government was the culprit.  And that just ran
chills through my spine, not that I couldn't believe that that
couldn't be true, but just the fact that, you know, that's the
government.
Q.  Have you seen Tim since then?
A.  No, I haven't.
Q.  Have you had any -- you didn't have any contact with him,
then, in 1994?
A.  Today is the first time that I've seen Tim McVeigh since he
left to go out West.
Q.  Can you tell us how you feel about him today.
A.  Torn, confused.  There's a part of me that still remembers
Tim, little kid.
         And then there's a part that sees what everybody else


                    Richard Drzyzga - Direct
sees on TV and gets angry.  And I can't put the two together.
I mean it just . . . hearing and listening and reading all that
was being said might have been true, but it just wasn't the Tim
that I knew.  I mean in me everything was just kind of going in
circles.
         As a kid growing up, you know, I was there along with
some of the other neighbors and some of his teachers, and we
virtually prodded Tim to do good, and he did do good.  I mean
he was a great kid.  He wasn't mischievous.  He didn't get in
trouble.  He was always there.
         He even sided with us at one occasion when my oldest
son was starting to flex his wings a little bit and trying to
break the bonds of -- you know, the rules, and Tim was at the
dinner table.  And Scott was saying -- oh, he was trying to
make us out to be the bad guys.  All right?  And Tim just
turned around and looked at him and punched him in the shoulder
and said, Hey, wait a minute.  They may be strict, but they're
fair.
         And that was the first time that I ever really was
made aware of Tim's feelings.  I mean he kind of closed himself
off a little bit, you know, he kept his feelings to himself.
But it made me feel good because I felt what I was doing as a
parent was a positive thing and somebody else besides my kids
noticed it.
Q.  And you still care about Tim?


                    Richard Drzyzga - Direct
A.  Yeah, I do.  I do.  And it's a hard situation for me, it
really is.  Because, you know, I have to face people every day,
and there are people out there that, you know, that detest him.
I mean . . . and they detest me because I knew him.  They
detest me because I still have feelings for him.
         MS. WELCH:  Thank you, Mr. Drzyzga.  No further
questions.
         MR. MACKEY:  None, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  All right.  You may step down.
         I take it he's excused?
         MS. WELCH:  Yes, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  You're excused.
         Next please.
         MR. COYNE:  Defense calls Vincent Capparra.
         THE COURT:  Okay.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right
hand, please.
    (Vincent Capparra affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  Vincent Capparra, C-A-P-P-A-R-R-A.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
         MR. COYNE:  Thank you, your Honor.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
BY MR. COYNE:
Q.  Good afternoon, Mr. Capparra.
A.  Good afternoon.
Q.  There is water in front of you.  If you happen to get dry,
help yourself.
A.  Okay.
Q.  Mr. Capparra, where do you live?
A.  In Derby, New York.
Q.  Is Derby 20 to 25 miles or so outside of Buffalo, New York?

A.  Yes.
Q.  How long have you lived in Derby, sir?
A.  About 12 years, 13.
Q.  Are you currently employed?
A.  Yes, I am.
Q.  For whom do you work?
A.  RJD Security.
Q.  What sort of business is RJD Security?
A.  It's a security company in Buffalo.
Q.  What sort of security does RJD provide?
A.  They provide securities for businesses and stores and
warehouse.
Q.  And when you say "provide security," you mean furnish
guards?
A.  Armed guards, unarmed guards, yes.
Q.  What are your responsibilities at RJD Security?


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
A.  I'm an inspector for RJD Security, and I oversee all the
guards and how they work and how they uniform and attend their
jobs.
Q.  So you have supervisory responsibility for a number of
employees?
A.  Yes.
Q.  About how many?
A.  I'd say close to around 3-, 400.
Q.  Okay.  Have you ever worked for an outfit called Burke
Armored Car Service?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And when did you work for that operation?
A.  When did I work for it?
Q.  Yes.
A.  It was back in -- from about '77 to '90.
Q.  Okay.  And during your employment at Burke Armored Car, did
you come to know Tim McVeigh?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  Explain to the jury how it is that you happened to know Tim
McVeigh during that period.
A.  Tim worked for me for a couple years.
Q.  Okay.  He worked for you in what capacity?
A.  He was an armed guard, and then he became a supervisor.
Q.  Do you remember when Tim was first hired to work for Burke?
A.  Yes.


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
Q.  What year would that have been?
A.  It had to be just after he got out of high school.
Q.  So it was -- 1986 or so sound about correct?
A.  Somewhere in there.
Q.  Is there any particular reason you hired Tim McVeigh, if
you recall?
A.  He applied to us through an ad.  We did a full background
investigation on him.  He had a pistol permit.  We put him on.
He passed the polygraph test.
Q.  Okay.  Did he supply references?
A.  Yes, he did.
Q.  And would you have checked those references?
A.  Yes, we did.
Q.  It sounds like you go to a lot of trouble before you hire
people at Burke Armored Car.  Why would that be?
A.  The insurance company that insured Burke for the armored
car had us do this.  That was one of their requirements.
Q.  And why did they have such a requirement?
A.  Because of the volume of money we carried for people and
the United States Government, for the Federal Reserve.
Q.  You'd been transporting large sums of money for various
customers?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Throughout the New York area?
A.  Yes.


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
Q.  And what would the range of money be that would be
transported --
A.  Varied --
Q.  -- in the armored car?
A.  It varies.  Anywheres from 80,000 to millions.
Q.  $80,000 to several million --
A.  Yes.
Q.  -- dollars might be located on a armored car.  Was it
common for you to hire folks right out of high school to do
this kind of work?
A.  No.
Q.  Was there a policy on age at the company at the time?
A.  Yes.  Burke had a policy on age, and he didn't hire anybody
over -- or under 21.
Q.  Tim McVeigh was --
A.  He was younger, yes.
Q.  How was it that you came to hire him notwithstanding the
fact --
A.  We hired a few of them because the qualifications that they
met and what he did and how he handled himself.
Q.  Were you Tim McVeigh's direct and immediate supervisor?
A.  Yes, I was.
Q.  And you said he worked there for a couple of years?
A.  Two years.
Q.  How often would you see him during that two-year period?


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
A.  Almost every day.
Q.  Monday through --
A.  Monday through Friday.
Q.  Okay.  Did he receive any training at Burke?
A.  Yes, he did.
Q.  What sort of training?
A.  Everybody who comes on first goes on what we call our
"downtown run"; that there's a three-man crew, and he worked as
a guard as the third man downtown moving coin and moving money
all day long.
Q.  This would be during a day shift?
A.  Day shift, 8:30 to around 4:30, 5:00.
Q.  Is that how all employees start at Burke?
A.  Every one of them.
Q.  From there, did he move on to another assignment?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Do you recall what that assignment was?
A.  Yeah, he moved on to the throughway run, which is a night
shift, and from there, about six or seven months into when he
was working for us, we made him a supervisor and he ran the
throughway.
Q.  How soon after he began working, if you recall, did you
make him a supervisor?
A.  Oh, maybe somewhere around six to eight months.
Q.  So not yet a year out of high school, a young Tim McVeigh


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
was made a supervisor of an armored car?
A.  Right.
Q.  Would he have supervisory authority of the other two
persons inside the armored car?
A.  Right, whoever was with him and who was the driver.
Q.  Can you describe to the jury what kind of employee you
found Tim McVeigh to be?
A.  Tim was a good, honest employee.
Q.  Can you explain what you mean, what the basis for that
opinion is?
A.  He did his job.  He was left to run the truck, and he made
all his stops on time, got there and got back, never had a loss
in his truck.
Q.  Did he do what he was told?
A.  All the time.
Q.  A typical shift would be how many hours, sir?
A.  About an eight-hour shift.  He started about midnight and
get back about 8 in the morning.
Q.  Would he ever work any extra hours?
A.  Yep, if we had specials and we asked Tim to come to work,
yes, he would.
Q.  You called them "specials"?
A.  They were "specials."  They would stay over.
Q.  And what would a special be?  What might an example be of a
special that Tim might be required --


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
A.  If we needed a run to, say, a bank that was out of money
that needed the money right away, we would ask them to help
out, and his truck would help out all the time.
Q.  Would Tim be paid extra money for that?
A.  No.
Q.  Special duty?
A.  Nope.
Q.  Why not?
A.  Because they were on salary.
Q.  Did he ever complain about drawing special assignment?
A.  No.
Q.  Did he seem to welcome such work?
A.  Yeah.  He never gave us a hard time about it.
Q.  How about the fact that he was relatively young?  Did that
present any problems to you?
A.  Nope.
Q.  Would you say that Tim was reliable?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Show up for work on time?
A.  Showed up for work.  I think in the two years that he was
there, he only called off twice.
Q.  Did he ever call in sick?
A.  That's about it, just two.
Q.  The two times?
A.  Yeah.


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
Q.  Do you have an opinion -- I think you stated that you found
Tim to be an honest employee.  Was there a basis for that
particular opinion?
A.  Yeah.  They found a money bag containing quite a bit, a lot
of money in it, and he turned it in to us; and we turned it
back in to the bank.
Q.  Can you explain that more fully to the jury; that Tim found

a bag full of money that he turned in?
A.  When they got to the bank at Rochester and they pick up
empties, they throw the empties back into the bags, to the
boxes that they pick up; and when they did that, there was a
bag with $8,000 that Tim and them found and brought back to us.
Q.  The bag had not been emptied?
A.  No.
Q.  The bank employee assumed that she had emptied it, perhaps?
A.  They emptied it, it was all pushed through the papers and
everything.  It was all checked out.  There was no way they
could even tell who had it.
Q.  No way the bank could have told who might have had that
money?
A.  Nope.  Because in the New York throughway, they all use the
same color bags, from Buffalo, to Syracuse, to Rochester; and
that area there, and up to New York City.  And there's three
different armored cars that brought these bags in.
Q.  If Tim wanted to keep that money, he could have --


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
A.  Absolutely --
Q.  -- with virtually no risk of being caught?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  Did he have responsibility for any money in the armored car
itself?
A.  Yep.  He had a cash box with $2500 that he had to keep and
keep that up to what he had and checked on that every day.
Q.  What was that for?
A.  That was to make change for the Throughway Authority, for
each booth.
Q.  Do you ever encounter any problems with Tim's cash box?
A.  No.
Q.  The figures always squared at the end of the day?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  Never short at all?
A.  Nope.
Q.  What about Tim's attitude towards work and his fellow
employees?
A.  He had a good attitude.
Q.  Can you explain what you mean by that?
A.  He never -- you know, anything we told him to do, he did
it.  Never gave anybody a hard time.  He got along with all the
guys.
Q.  Did you ever see Tim outside the work environment?
A.  He was at my house a couple of times and at my parents'


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
home for dinner.
Q.  So you had him at your home for dinner and your parents had
him into their home for dinner as well?
A.  Right.
Q.  Did you ever receive any complaints about Tim McVeigh?
A.  The only complaint I got was that he was in the armored
car, from two of the older gentleman; and he would turn the
radio all the way up and put earplugs in his ears and just
drive with the music blasting.
Q.  He would put the radio on at a loud volume?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  And this disturbed the older gentlemen?
A.  Yeah, Russ Andolino and Jerry Zambricki didn't like the
rock-and-roll music.
Q.  They preferred some other style of music?
A.  Right.
Q.  Did Tim ever receive a promotion while at Burke?
A.  He made supervisor.
Q.  He made supervisor.  You told us that was a relatively
short period of time.
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  Do you know how long he operated as a supervisor for during
his employment there?
A.  Better than a year.
Q.  So over a period of a year?


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
A.  Just before he left us to go into the service.
Q.  And he had additional responsibilities while in that
supervisor position?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  What were those?
A.  He was in charge of the truck.  He had to maintain all the
records and sign for money from each bank.
Q.  Now, you spent about 26 years, by my calculation, in the
security business; is that not right?
A.  Right.
Q.  How many men and women have you supervised over that period
of time?
A.  I'd say close to 400.
Q.  How would you rank Tim McVeigh within that group of 400
employees?
A.  Up in the first 25 of them.  He was a good employee.
Q.  In the top 25?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  Percent?
A.  Right.
Q.  Did you ever have occasion, other than having Tim over to
your house for dinner, to see him socially outside of work?
A.  When you say "socially," what do you mean?
Q.  Just at some nonwork situation, a ball game, maybe
Christmas party?


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
A.  We had him -- I call him to come to the house one night; I
was having some trouble with some kids, and I wanted him to
help me.
Q.  You asked Tim to come out to your house to help you with
trouble that you were having?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  Tell the jury what the trouble was.
A.  They were throwing ice balls at the house windows, and we
couldn't catch them, so we laid -- the police didn't do
nothing; so we laid in the yard and we grabbed them.
Q.  Who was throwing these ice balls?
A.  It was about eight kids from the neighborhood.
Q.  Were these just normal ice balls, or were these Buffalo
special ice balls?
A.  They had some good ice balls.  They had some eggs inside of
them.
Q.  Eggs inside of them.  You don't get that in Oklahoma.
A.  Nope.
Q.  So when they hit the windows or the frame of the house, it
made quite a mess.
A.  That's true.
Q.  So you decided that you would try to bring a stop to that?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  You invited Tim and another fellow over to the house?
A.  Uh-huh.


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
Q.  Another person from work.  What happened?
A.  We got them.  We caught them that night.
Q.  How did you manage to catch them?
A.  We laid in the back in a trench, and finally they came
around throwing ice ball and we got them.
Q.  What did you do when you got them?
A.  We just roughed them up a little bit.
Q.  Did you try to dissuade them from pelting ice balls at the
house in the future?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  Now, you were interviewed by the FBI in connection with
this case, weren't you, back in April of 1995?
A.  Uh-huh, telephone interview.
Q.  You told them about the incident, didn't you?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  Did you tell them anything particular about what Tim had
done at that time?
A.  I said he said he could blow the kid up.
Q.  What did he say?  Put that in context for the jury, if you
would.
A.  Well, I had the guy on the ground; Tim came over, he said
he wanted to know his name, he could really blow his house up
and that.
Q.  And what did you think about that at the time?
A.  We just thought it was funny and he was joking.


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
Q.  The kid think he was joking at the time?  Do you have a
sense?
A.  He didn't say.
Q.  He didn't say.  But the point of all that was to do what?
A.  Just to scare them.
Q.  And do you think the kids were scared that night?
A.  They've never thrown ice balls again.
Q.  Do you recall when Tim left his job at Burke Armored Car?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  When did that occur?
A.  That was just before he went into the service, about '83.
Q.  1988, maybe, be more accurate?
A.  '88, yeah.  That could be.
Q.  You said he started in '86, when he graduated from high
school --
A.  Yeah, '86.
Q.  -- so '88 might be a better date.  Did you have any contact
with him after he left Burke?
A.  He stopped back once when he was on -- got out of boot
camp.
Q.  Okay.
A.  And talked to him for a few minutes.
Q.  Come to the office?
A.  They come to the office, yeah.
Q.  Were you happy to see him?


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  Do you recall anything he might have said at that time?
A.  About what?
Q.  Do you recall anything that Tim might have said when he
came by the office to visit on leave from boot camp.
A.  Just told us he was trying out for Special Forces.
Q.  Did he express how he liked the Army?
A.  Yeah.  Said he wanted to go; he didn't mind it.
Q.  Did he seem any different on that occasion than he had when
he worked for you?
A.  Nope.
Q.  Then after Tim left the Army, did you have any further
contact with him?
A.  Just that he sent me a letter once asking if I wanted to
buy some handguns that he had and some weapons.
Q.  And did you respond to the letter?
A.  No.
Q.  Did you end up buying any weapons from him?
A.  Nothing, no.
Q.  Have any idea why he might have sent you that letter, why
he might have been trying to sell the weapons?
A.  I think he sent it to a lot of the guys that he used to
work with.
Q.  Trying to make some extra money?
A.  We thought he was getting married.


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
Q.  You thought he was getting married?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  What made you think he might be getting married?
A.  I know a lot of guys that sell their guns in the security
business for one thing or another if they get married and they
need the money.
Q.  Just might be getting rid of some guns in order to get
married.
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  During the course of Tim's employment with you, do you
recall any particular magazines that he might have read?
A.  Just like Guns and Ammo and, you know, Soldier of Fortune.
Q.  Okay, was that unusual for a person in your employ to read
magazines of that type?
A.  No.  A lot of our guys read that stuff.
Q.  Do you recall Tim ever telling you about purchasing some
land near Hinsdale, New York?
A.  Uh-huh.  He told us that he purchased land.
Q.  Did he tell you what he hoped to do with that land?
A.  He wanted to build a bunker.
Q.  Why did he want to build a bunker on that land?
A.  He was a survivalist.  That's what he told us.
Q.  And by survivalist, do you have a sense of what that means?
Can you tell the jury --
A.  He said if they ever blew up a bomb or anything, you know,


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
we ever were bombed, he would have a place he could put his
stuff and be safe.
Q.  Put his stuff and be safe?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  Did he ever ask you anything about the walls of the vault
at Burke Armored Car Division?
A.  Yeah, everybody we hired asked how they were built.  We had
pictures of it and diagram of how they were and everything.
Q.  What was so special about those walls?
A.  They were 20 inches thick, poured concrete after the
building was made; plus they had vault steel rods going in all
different directions, half-inch steel rods.
Q.  Did he relate his interest to the walls in the vault to the
land that he purchased in Hinsdale?
A.  He just said it would be a good bunker.
Q.  If he were able to make his bunker out of that material --
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  -- that would be a useful material.
         You mentioned to the jury that Tim at one point sent
you a letter and offered to sell you some guns but that you
didn't purchase guns.  You were generally aware that while Tim
worked for you that Tim was interested in guns, beyond the need
to have one for his employment?
A.  Right.
Q.  Carrying a gun was a requirement, was it not, of working


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
for --
A.  For our armored people, yes.
Q.  And did you share that interest with Tim?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  Did the two of you have occasion to shoot together?
A.  Yeah.  We shot on Burke's range together.  We all had to
qualify there.
Q.  There was a range at the office?
A.  Right at the office, yes.
Q.  You and Tim went upstairs.  I take it the range was
upstairs?
A.  Most of the guys that went up there to qualify and shoot.
Q.  Was he a good shot?
A.  Yes, he was.
Q.  The employees under your immediate supervision at Burke at
the time that Tim was working for you as well:  What percentage
of them had such an interest in guns?
A.  Almost every one of them.
Q.  Did Tim ever express to you any concern about the
Government trying to restrict gun ownership?
A.  Yes, he did.  They were -- in New York State, you have to
have a pistol permit; and it's classified for business
protection, personal protection, or hunting and target.  In
Niagara County, they give you carry permits; but at one point
in time, when the judge wanted to restrict where you only could


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
have two handguns on your permit at any time.
Q.  Did Tim have an opinion about that judge's proposal?
A.  Like everybody else, they didn't like it.
Q.  Do you have an opinion about that?
A.  Uh-huh.  I have eight guns on my permit.
Q.  So I trust it you didn't much like that judge's proposal,
either?
A.  No.
Q.  Mr. Capparra, during your April, 1995 interview with the
FBI, did you tell them that Tim knew how to make explosives out
of dishwashing detergent and household products?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  Did you also tell them that Tim would make his own
fireworks?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  Did any of that strike you as unusual, the fact that Tim
McVeigh would have the knowledge how to do these things?
A.  No, because there was a lot of guys that worked at Burke
Armored that knew how to do that.
Q.  How is it that they came to know how to make firecrackers
and explosives?
A.  A lot of them make their own bullets, too, because it's
cheaper.
Q.  How do they come to know those things?
A.  They read it out of the books.  It's all printed in the


                   Vincent Capparra - Direct
books.
Q.  The books and magazines that they read?
A.  Right.
Q.  Were there other people at Burke who made their own
fireworks?
A.  Uh-huh.  Yes there was.
Q.  Why would they do that?  Why not just --
A.  Because they're illegal in New York State.
Q.  Fireworks are illegal in New York State?
A.  Right.  You have to go out of the state to buy them.
Q.  Is that illegal as well?
A.  Sure is.
Q.  Mr. Capparra, do you recall how you first learned about the
bombing in Oklahoma City?
A.  I heard it on TV.
Q.  And do you recall when you first learned that Tim McVeigh
was a suspect in that bombing?
A.  Pardon?
Q.  Do you recall when you first learned that Tim McVeigh was a
suspect in the bombing?
A.  When I seen them bringing him out, in handcuffs.  When they
first had him in handcuffs, bringing him out.
Q.  And did you have a reaction to the news that Tim had been
arrested for this crime?
A.  I couldn't believe that he would do it.
         MR. COYNE:  No more questions, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Any cross-examination?
         MR. MACKEY:  None, your Honor.
         MR. COYNE:  Yes, sir.
         THE COURT:  You may step down, you're excused.
         Next, please.
         MR. BURR:  Linda Daigler.
         THE COURT:  Okay.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right
hand, please.
    (Linda Daigler affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  Linda Daigler, D-A-I-G-L-E-R.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BURR:
Q.  Good afternoon.
A.  Good afternoon.
Q.  Where were you born?
A.  I was born in Lockport, New York.
Q.  Did you grow up in that area?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  Have you continued to live there through your life?


                     Linda Daigler - Direct
A.  Yes, I have.
Q.  What town do you live in now?
A.  I live in the town of Lockport.
Q.  What is your occupation?
A.  I'm a dental assistant at the University of Buffalo.
Q.  Do you have any children?
A.  Yes, I do.  Three.
Q.  What are their names and ages?
A.  Kenneth, 28; Kerry, 26; and Kyle, 23.
Q.  What is Kyle's last name?
A.  Kraus.
Q.  Did he testify in this trial in the first part of it?
A.  Yes, he did.
Q.  Are you related to Timothy McVeigh?
A.  Yes, I am.
Q.  What's the relation?
A.  I am a cousin, and I'm also his godmother.
Q.  Did Tim live fairly close by as he was growing up?
A.  Yes, he did.
Q.  Did you see him fairly often?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  Up until about the time he was 12, do you have any memories
of that early part of his life?
A.  He was a typical young kid, playing, joking, always
teasing.  Same as any normal child.


                     Linda Daigler - Direct
Q.  After he was a teenager, did you continue to see him?
A.  Yes.  He and my older son used to sometimes go rabbit
hunting and hang out a little bit.  But as they got a little
bit older, they kind of both went to high schools and kind of
both went their own way.
Q.  Did Tim continue to have a relationship with you?
A.  Yes, always.
Q.  Tell us about that.
A.  He would stop by.  He would never call, he'd just stop by
and walk in the house and get a can of Coke out of the
refrigerator and sit down and we'd chat, and, you know, we had
a real good relationship.  He would come home always on leave,
because I made him promise to stop and see me.  And, you know,
very -- a nice relationship.
Q.  Did -- did -- were there occasions where he helped you out
with various things you needed help with?
A.  Tim was always very helpful.  He would help us put up our
pool, and one time we got all this wood that we had delivered
and he just happened to stop by and he helped us split it and
stack it, and he was a hard-working kid.
Q.  Did you have a chance to see how Tim related to other
members of the family, the extended family, I guess?
A.  I think he probably saw my family, myself and my children,
the most.  He had a very good relationship with his
grandfather.  He would go over there all the time and help him


                     Linda Daigler - Direct
and, you know, they were -- had a real loving, close
relationship.
Q.  Did that continue on through Tim's life as he became an
adult?
A.  Yes, it did.  Yes, it did.
Q.  How about after high school?  Did you -- did you continue
to have some contact with him --
A.  Uh-huh.  Yeah.  Our family always get together on Christmas
Eve and have big Christmas Eve parties, and Tim would be there.
And as I said, he would stop by and . . . after high school
he -- excuse me, after high school?
Q.  Yeah.
A.  He was going to college nearby, so -- and my older son had
already joined the Army.  And he would stop by and see how he
was doing and stuff.
Q.  Were you aware that at some point not too long after high
school, Tim joined the Army?
A.  Was I aware of it?
Q.  Yes.
A.  Yes, I was.
Q.  Did you have contact with him off and on during the time he
was in the Army?
A.  Yes, I would.
Q.  What would be the occasion for you to see him?
A.  Well, I wrote him letters, and he would always, you know,


                     Linda Daigler - Direct
write back.  When he was in the Persian Gulf, I tried to send
him packages occasionally 'cause my son was also there.  And,
you know, he would write letters.
Q.  On one of the times when he came home on leave from Fort
Riley, did he tell you about an unusual incident --
A.  Yes.
Q.  -- that happened on the way?
A.  He told me that he was on his way home -- 'cause Tim would
come home like -- nobody ever knew when he was coming home.  He
would just come home.  And he would come home, and there was an
accident on the road and he stopped, and the person was badly
injured.  And he stopped and helped them, and he administered
an i.v.  He said he waited till the person was stable and the
police were coming, and then he left.
Q.  Did you ever ask him how he happened to be traveling with
an i.v. in his pocket?
A.  No, I didn't.
Q.  Were you aware that he had some emergency medical or
first-aid training in the Army?
A.  Yes, because I believe that they -- all soldiers are
trained in some form of emergency 'cause I knew my son also
was.
Q.  Did you have occasion to visit with Tim after he got back
from the Gulf War?
A.  Yes, I did.


                     Linda Daigler - Direct
Q.  Do you recall anything about what you talked with him
about?
A.  He came over and he sat down at our kitchen table where we
always sat, and he said that -- you know, that he had spent
many hours in his Bradley like sleeping, you know, that he
would spend like -- work 17 hours and that he felt sorry for
the children there because they would be begging for food and
that he was unable to -- they were unable to give them food.
And he also told me about -- that he had killed an Iraqi
soldier at close range.
Q.  Did he express any emotion about that?
A.  It's -- he was telling a series of events, and it wasn't as
if -- I think he had remorse, you know.  I mean I don't really
see -- I mean he wasn't saying, Oh, yea, yippee, I did it, you
know, or anything like that.  He was just telling -- we asked
what had happened and, you know, how he . . . .  Just, you
know.
Q.  Did Tim take after his father, Bill, in any ways that
you -- that struck you?
A.  Yes.
Q.  How is that?
A.  He likes the country; he doesn't like city living.  He
likes to save his money.  But if you ever wanted to borrow
money from Tim, he would give it to you if he had it.  A kind,
loving person.


                     Linda Daigler - Direct
Q.  Were you aware that Tim owned guns?
A.  Pardon me?
Q.  Were you aware that Tim had owned guns?
A.  Yes, I was.
Q.  How were you aware of that?
A.  Well, I know he used to go hunting with my -- you know,
with my son.  And I knew that later on in life he went to gun
shows and stuff, you know.  I don't really know how many guns,
you know, prior to going into the military or anything he did
have.
Q.  Was that ever a matter of concern for you?
A.  No, because a lot of people do -- you know, do have that

interest, and it was not.
Q.  Did Tim ever strike you as a little fearful that bad things
might happen, not knowing exactly what it would be, but
something just sort of ominous?
A.  Well, he was -- went to my daughter's apartment, and he was
real concerned 'cause she never had any food there.  It was a
college apartment, and I think they lived on cereal.  And he
had had barrels delivered to his dad's house for -- there were
two barrels delivered, and Bill had put them in the basement,
and they were going to be for water.  I don't know if they ever
filled them or not, but he had -- so I don't -- you know, I
never questioned him about that.  You know.
Q.  Does -- do the blizzards that you have there sometimes make


                     Linda Daigler - Direct
you want to have water in your basement?
A.  Well, you need to have enough food 'cause sometimes you
can't get out.
Q.  Looking back over Tim's life from where we sit today, in
trying to help people understand the fellow that he is, how
would you describe him?
A.  Well, the person that people have been describing is not
the Tim I know.  Tim is kind, loving, funny, always like to
crack a joke, and very loving.  I don't think he ever came in
my house when he didn't give me a hug or tease me or something.
You know, and he has his family's unconditional love.  That's
not something you can just turn off.
         MR. BURR:  Thank you.  No other questions, your Honor.
         MR. MACKEY:  Nothing.
         THE COURT:  Any cross?
         All right.  You may step down.  You're excused.
         Next.
         MR. NIGH:  Sergeant Major James Hardesty.
         THE COURT:  Okay.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Raise your right hand, please.
    (James Hardesty affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  James David Hardesty, H-A-R-D-E-S-T-Y.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
         MR. NIGH:  Thank you, your Honor.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NIGH:
Q.  Good afternoon, sir.
A.  Good afternoon.
Q.  You're currently a sergeant major in the United States
Army?
A.  Master sergeant.
Q.  Master sergeant.  I'm sorry.  And where are you currently
stationed?
A.  Right now I'm in Republic of Korea.
Q.  A little bit of a flight away from here?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Before we get to your military career, can you tell us
where you grew up?
A.  I grew up in New Castle, Pennsylvania.
Q.  And is that where you went to high school?
A.  Yes, I went to high school in New Castle.
Q.  When you were in 18 years old, was it then that you joined
the United States Army?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Where did you go first?
A.  My first station was Korea.
Q.  You went directly from basic training to Korea?


                    James Hardesty - Direct
A.  Yes.  I did basic training and AIT in Georgia, and then I
went to Korea.
Q.  How long were you stationed in Korea the first time?
A.  12 months.
Q.  And after that, had there been any other places you've been
stationed for a long period of time?
A.  I did six years in Germany and four years at Fort Riley.
Q.  When was the four years at Fort Riley?
A.  I got there in September of 1989, and I was there until
'93.
Q.  What is your current MOS?
A.  I'm infantry.
Q.  What kind of -- you're an operations sergeant; isn't that
right?
A.  My job title is operations sergeant.
Q.  What does an operations sergeant do?
A.  As an operations sergeant, we do -- do planning of combat
operations, and we run a tactical operations center, command
control group.
Q.  Are you fairly close to the DMZ now?
A.  Yes, 20 kilometers from the DMZ.
Q.  Let's go back now to the time that you were at Fort Riley.
When was it that you got stationed there?
A.  1989, September.
Q.  And were you in Alpha Company at that time?


                    James Hardesty - Direct
A.  Yes, initially I was in Alpha Company.
Q.  And then in January of 1990, did you transfer to Charlie
Company?
A.  Yes.
Q.  At that point in time was Mr. McVeigh in the 1st Platoon,
Mr. Tim McVeigh?
A.  Yes, he was in the 1st Platoon.
Q.  Was that your platoon?
A.  Negative.  I was a 2d Platoon sergeant.
Q.  How many people were in your company at that time?
A.  Company averaged anywhere from 105 to 115 soldiers.
Q.  When you first arrived at Fort Riley, did you begin --
spend the beginning months getting familiar with the soldiers
in your company?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Was Mr. McVeigh among them, or was he in a different
company?
A.  He was in my company, yes.
Q.  Did you become familiar with him?
A.  I come -- with all the soldiers in the company, yes.
Q.  Was there anything about Mr. McVeigh that you noticed in
particular?
A.  Well, the way the company runs, it's -- you know, you want
to have the best platoon, you want to have the best company.
And as a platoon sergeant, I have 30 soldiers that work for me


                    James Hardesty - Direct
directly.  And kind of like build your team there, you want the
best soldiers; and Tim was one of the standouts in the company,
and I did try to get him into my platoon.
Q.  Sounds like baseball players.
A.  Yes.  Very similar.  Well, I tried to make some trades to
get him in my platoon.
Q.  Were you able to do so?
A.  No, platoon sergeant didn't want to part with him that was
in charge of him.
Q.  Even though you weren't able to get him into your platoon,
were you able to have some contact with him during that period
of time?
A.  Yes.
Q.  How -- what circumstances would you have contact with
Mr. McVeigh?
A.  Well, daily when we have our first formation in the
morning, we'd see all the soldiers at morning formation.
Usually our first formation would be physical activities, and
then our work-out formation, about 09 in the morning.  1300 or
1:00 p.m. formation.  So through the day, off and on I would
see all soldiers.
         Also whenever we did company-level training, then we
trained directly together.  It would be practical gunnery
skills test; common task training; EIB which is Expert
Infantryman's Badge, training.  So there was numerous events


                    James Hardesty - Direct
that would happen through the year that we would be training
together.
Q.  Did that occur more frequently towards the times of the
Gulf War?
A.  When we got closer to the Gulf War, we did nuclear,
biological, and chemical training and intense weapons
qualifications, so, yeah, there was more activity at that time.
Q.  So there would have been more activity when you would have
been in connection with Mr. McVeigh?
A.  Yes.
Q.  You couldn't very well speak to him on an informal basis at
that time, could you?  Or could you?
A.  Well, most of my dealings were just professional.  'Cause
when you're doing the training like you're doing, there's a lot
of people you're trying to get through the training, so it's
pretty intense.
Q.  How would another platoon sergeant feel about you talking
to one of his soldiers on an individual basis?
A.  Basically if there's a chance that he knows I'm trying to
get him, then he would tell me to basically leave the soldiers
alone.
Q.  Is that why you weren't able to have much dealings with
Mr. McVeigh?
A.  Yes.  Well, when you're a platoon sergeant, you're
basically in this case named "Platoon Daddy," and you're like


                    James Hardesty - Direct
their father.  And you're responsible to -- their welfare,
their training, everything.  So the platoon sergeant basically
told me to leave his people alone.
Q.  Even though you weren't able to have direct or much direct
contact with Mr. McVeigh on informal basis, did you come to
learn about him from discussions with other people?
A.  I would talk to my soldiers and, you know, try to get the
best soldiers for me.  And I talked to my good soldiers and
find out who they'd like to have in the platoon.  And through
those dealings, soldiers that went through basic training and
advanced training with Tim would tell me, Hey, you know, this
is a guy we need to get.  So, yes, you know, I did put feelers
out there trying to get information.
Q.  How quickly was Mr. McVeigh promoted in relation to the
promotion over his peers?
A.  Quickly.  A lot quicker than most of the soldiers.  A lot
of potential.  He had all the professional attributes that
you'd want for your junior NCOs, or noncommissioned officers.
Q.  Now, both of you went to the Gulf War, as I understand it?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And -- but you didn't -- you weren't in much -- or any
contact with Mr. McVeigh during the Gulf War?
A.  No.  The way the task organization for the battalion is,
you break down into company teams which ends up becoming a mix
of infantry and armor.  And his platoon went with an armored


                    James Hardesty - Direct
company, so they were detached from us.
Q.  And you came -- yourself, came back early from the Gulf
War; is that right?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Without going into a great deal of detail, would you tell
us briefly why that was.
A.  We were clearing mines between our vehicles during --
matter of fact, it was the night before the cease-fire, and we
were doing a flanking maneuver to let our rear -- let our
follow-on brigade take the lead; and when they took the lead,
we did some clearing missions.  And when we stopped for the
evening, we were trying to remove some mines between vehicles,
and I took shrapnel cross my legs.
Q.  Injured pretty severely?
A.  Yes, I almost lost my right leg.
Q.  And you came back and eventually to Fort Riley as a result
of that injury; is that right?
A.  Yes.  It must have been three or more months in and out of
hospitals before I finally got back to the unit.
Q.  I'd like to ask you, if I may, about some of the things
that occurred at Fort Riley, both before and after the Gulf
War.  Fort Riley was infantry position; is that correct?
A.  Roger.
Q.  That means yes?
A.  Yes.


                    James Hardesty - Direct
Q.  And would it be unusual for the soldiers there to read
Soldier of Fortune magazine?
A.  No, it wouldn't be.
Q.  Was that -- was that a rare occurrence, a frequent
occurrence, or how would you describe it?
A.  It was a pretty usual because most of your young soldiers
come in, a lot of them are in the infantry, you watch a Rambo
movie.  I mean that's basically infantry is what Rambo is.  And
Gung Ho magazine, Soldier of Fortune magazine, Guns and Ammo,
rifle magazines, hunting magazines are common place, anything
dealing with guns, ammunition.  I knew guys have more basic
issue items than what we actually get -- as far as combat gear,
they buy more personal combat gear than what they're issued by
the military, 'cause some people really take their job serious.
Q.  Was the military or the soldiers at Fort Riley -- did they
all have the same interests, or was there some diversity there?
A.  Well, in the infantry, it's kind of a large -- when you say
infantry, it's a branch, but our branch deals with mechanized
infantry, airborne infantry, straight leg infantry.  And when
you're looking at our branch and you take that, then you look
at what our interests are.  We got guys that are into
demolitions 'cause that's part of our job; guys that are into
tactics, which is also part of our job; some guys are into guns
and ammunition, which is kind of the gunsmith kind of the job.
And everyone has their specialty that they want to get into.


                    James Hardesty - Direct
Q.  What was your specialty or what was your interest at the
time you were at Fort --
A.  Mine was basically working with the Bradleys, mechanized
infantry side of the house.
Q.  What was Mr. McVeigh's interest?
A.  Tim was more into the gunsmith side of the house where he
liked to play with the guns, and there was a lot of soldiers,
especially the younger ones, that were really into the small
arms stuff 'cause that's more the Rambo, gung ho kind of thing.
Q.  Did you ever do anything while you were at Fort Riley or
while you were a young soldier that would be similar to the
kinds of things we see depicted?
A.  When I was a lower enlisted guy when I first came in the
military, I also had my interest.  And there's the stealth side
where you're trying to be walking through the woods and not be
detected or walk through the dark and not be seen.  And my
thing was when I was coming up through the ranks was not being
detected.  So I might camouflage, paint up after duty hours and
run through the woods.  But, you know, there was numerous guys
that we all had our little thing, and it was just -- it's part
of growing up in the military.
Q.  Was that something that was part of your regular duty, or
was that something that you did on your own?
A.  It was something I did on my own after duty hours.
Q.  There's been testimony that Mr. McVeigh left the Army


                    James Hardesty - Direct
shortly after Desert Storm.  Was that unusual for a
noncommissioned officer to be leaving the service at that time?
A.  No.  What had happened was prior to -- prior to Desert
Storm, we were probably at about 80 percent strength as a
military, as far as infantry branch.  Once Desert Storm started
to come upon us and we seen it coming, when Desert Shield
initially came, we got up to about a hundred percent strength.
They were starting to beef the units up, because they knew
something was in the wind.  And then when we deployed over for
Desert Storm, we were up to about 130 percent strength.  So we
got pretty strong.
         When they got this strong and the war ended so
quickly, then the draw-down started.  When the draw-down
started, they were trying to -- they were just dumping people
left and right, trying to get people out.
Q.  How did they go about dumping people?
A.  Some people were getting early outs, where they were given
like a severance pay and asked to leave.  Some people were just
not given the option for reenlistment.  They started a point
ratio system where people couldn't meet the points to stay in.
And there were other ways, too, that they basically were just
trying to weed the force down to the number that they decided
they wanted to keep, and a lot of that dealt with getting rid
of the senior side and keeping the lower enlisted personnel
because they make less money than the seniors.


                    James Hardesty - Direct
Q.  How did you feel about that?
A.  At the time I was -- my future in the military was very
dim.  One, I was wounded, and I didn't expect to stay in.  I
had a good chance even at that point to still lose my leg, and
I didn't know -- I was very -- I'm surprised I'm still in now.
My leg just held up long enough for me to stay in.
Q.  It would appear also that you've changed your attitude
about it since then as well.
A.  When I came -- at that point I was over 10 years, and it
was kind -- you know, I figured I better tough it out, try and
stay in.  I did see a lot of seniors get out.  'Cause it does
get very disillusioning when you go there, you know, you're
sacrificing for your country, and all of the sudden you come
back and you're discarded baggage.
Q.  Was the training that you received at Fort Riley -- how did
that prepare you as soldiers for the Gulf War?
A.  A lot of the training we did just prior to going was trying
to get us refreshed on a lot of the training we do on a routine
basis.  It's just that we kind of get away from some of our
training during the year, and that was to get us back up to the
level of proficiency we needed to be at to go over to war.  So
it was a lot of nuclear, biological, and chemical training that
went on at that time.
Q.  As I understand it, you haven't seen Mr. McVeigh since you
were both at Fort Riley; is that correct?


                    James Hardesty - Direct
A.  Yes.
Q.  So you don't know anything about what he's done since
leaving the Army?
A.  No.  The guys that I went to Desert Storm with, we try to
keep in contact and keep in communication with each other.  So
the only thing I've gotten was just basically hearsay from
other guys that, hey, how's this guy doing, how's that guy
doing, so . . . no direct contact.
Q.  Would you please tell us what your description of
Mr. McVeigh was from the time that you knew him.
A.  Well, one, since I tried really hard to get him into my
platoon, I wouldn't have tried that unless I had a lot of -- or
seen a lot of potential in him.  And at that time I seen a lot
of potential.
         He had all the leadership qualities that you want in a
soldier:  Drive, determination, bit arrogant, but the thing is
with most of your soldiers, the best soldiers are your more
arrogant soldiers.  They got a lot of, you know, self-pride,
they got a lot of self-motivation, and they think highly of
themselves, and he was one of the better soldiers and very
professional, a good soldier.
         MR. NIGH:  Thank you.
         That's all I have, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Miss Wilkinson.
                       CROSS-EXAMINATION


                     James Hardesty - Cross
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q.  Good afternoon, Master Sergeant Hardesty.  How are you?
A.  I'm fine.
Q.  You've been in the service for how long?
A.  Just under 18 years.
Q.  And I take it you're proud of your service to your country?
A.  Yes.
Q.  You're proud of the Army, aren't you?
A.  Yes, I am.
Q.  Proud of the training that they've provided to you?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And when you joined the Army, you took an oath, didn't you?
A.  Yes.
Q.  You took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of
the United States, didn't you?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And when you took that oath and you joined the Army, you
learned about the rules of engagement and the law of the war,
didn't you?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And over your 17 or 18 years in the military, you've dealt
with a lot of soldiers?
A.  Yes.
Q.  You've seen some good ones and some bad ones?
A.  Yes.


                     James Hardesty - Cross
Q.  And you've become familiar with the training that the Army
gives to its soldiers; is that right?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And you've had lots of experiences including injury at war?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And nothing in your military experience or in the training
that you have observed would ever make you turn on your country
and kill your own citizens, would it?
         MR. NIGH:  I object to that, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Sustained.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q.  Master Sergeant Hardesty, would you consider it a privilege
to serve in the military?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And it's not an excuse, is it?
A.  No.
         MS. WILKINSON:  No further questions, your Honor.
         MR. NIGH:  That's all the questions I have, your
Honor.  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  All right.  He's excused, I take it?
         MR. NIGH:  Yes, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  You may step down.  You're excused.
         Next witness.
         MR. JONES:  Sergeant Major Robert Harris.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Raise your right hand, please.
    (Bob Harris affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  My name is Bob Harris.  My last name is
Harris, H-A-R-R-I-S.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Sergeant, what is your rank?
A.  My rank is sergeant major.
Q.  And what is a sergeant major of the United States?
A.  That is the highest rank of an enlisted man can achieve.
Q.  And where are you presently stationed?
A.  I'm stationed in Panama.
Q.  And how long have you been stationed there?
A.  I've been there, sir, since the 25th of November, 1995.
Q.  And as a sergeant major in Panama, what are your
responsibilities there?
A.  I am the operations sergeant major for U.S. Army south.
Q.  And what is the United States Army south?
A.  Well, the MACOM, major Army command that is responsible for
the entire -- the freedom of movement of ships for the entire
Latin American, South American, to include the Carribeans.
Q.  You are the operational sergeant major for that command?


                      Bob Harris - Direct
A.  Right it is, sir.
Q.  How long have you been in the Army?
A.  I've been in the Army for 22 years, sir.
Q.  Where were you born?
A.  Excuse me.  Say again, please.
Q.  Where were you born?
A.  I was born in Brazil.
Q.  And when did you come to the United States?
A.  I came to the United States on the 14th of June, 1996 --
'66.
Q.  During the period of time that you've been in the Army of
the United States, Sergeant Major, where have you been
stationed, or at least some of the stations?
A.  Quite a few places.  I took basic training in Fort Jackson,
South Carolina; AIT, advanced training, was at Fort Polk,
Louisiana.  My first duty station, I was stationed in Fort
Hood, Texas.  From there I went to Panama, and spent three
years there.
         From there I went on to Fort Dix, New Jersey, where I
served as a drill sergeant.  And later, my following
assignment, I went back to Fort Hood; and from there, I went to
Germany, where I instruct all the units in Germany on the
Bradley fighting vehicle.
         From there, I came to Fort Riley, Kansas.  Later after
that, Fort Riley tour, sir, I went to Carlisle, Pennsylvania,


                      Bob Harris - Direct
where I instruct ROTC.  And from there I came to Fort Carson,
Colorado, and moved on to Panama, which I'm currently stationed
there.
Q.  Sergeant Major, have you been to war?
A.  I was in Desert Storm, sir; yes, sir.
Q.  Do you know an individual by the name of Timothy James
McVeigh?
A.  Yes, I do, sir.
Q.  Would you tell me, please, how you first became acquainted
with him?
A.  Well, sir, I assumed control of Charlie Company 216 on the
8th of November of 19 -- correction, 8th of January, 1990.  And
I became the first sergeant of a company.  And, well, I
initially became -- began to know the people of that company as
a first sergeant; I started inspecting the company on a daily
basis.  And I got to know those soldiers that stood out, you
know, from other folks in the formation.  And Timothy McVeigh
was one of the soldiers that stood out.
         And initially, when I started to inspect the company,
I made the standards were if you were the best-looking soldier
in the company as far as appearance and also general military
knowledge, I would give you the day off.  And right off the
bat, Timothy McVeigh was the first week, he know, he had won
the thing about three times, 'cause he stood out.
Q.  So did you discontinue the award?


                      Bob Harris - Direct
A.  Yes.  Very shortly afterwards.  Because, again, the company
has just -- was returned from the national training center; and
they was doing recovery of the vehicles, getting everything
ready to go to wherever the Army decide to send us.  And pretty
much about 7:00, the company was in the motor pool repairing
and fix things that, you know, to prepare to go on.
Q.  All right.  And --
A.  And this continue, I would say for about a month.
Q.  Excuse me just for a moment.
         Sergeant Major, I'm going to hand you a book of
exhibits through the deputy court clerk.  If you'd just put
those in front of you.
A.  Thank you.
Q.  Now, during the period of time that you were at Fort Riley
and you observed Mr. McVeigh, how did he spend his personal
time?
A.  Well, sir, many times on the weekends, Saturdays and
Sunday, would come to check on the barracks, check on the
soldiers that live in the barracks.  And many time, I saw
Timothy McVeigh there inspecting the equipment of his folks,
his troops, and also wall lockers to make sure that everything
was correct, they had the proper equipment to, you know -- to
go on to go to the field, in case we need to go or to go
wherever we need to go.
Q.  Did you have a role in selecting Mr. McVeigh as the company


                      Bob Harris - Direct
reenlistment NCO?
A.  I was the person that did, yes, sir.
Q.  First of all, tell us what a company reenlistment NCO is.
A.  A company reenlistment NCO is who we trust to sell the
military for the people who want to reenlist or to persuade the
folks that the military is not as bad as some people think it
is.
Q.  Why did you choose Sergeant McVeigh?
A.  Because, again, I was impressed with Sergeant McVeigh.  And
he was the type of soldier that possessed a level of discipline
that we wanted to serve as a role model.
Q.  Could you have asked for anything more in an NCO than what
Mr. McVeigh demonstrated?
A.  No, sir.  For a junior NCO, no, sir.
Q.  Now, you were interviewed by the Federal Bureau of
Investigation following the Oklahoma City bombing, were you
not?
A.  Right that, sir.
Q.  And you indicated in your statement that Mr. McVeigh was a
loner.  Do you recall that?
A.  Yes.
Q.  What did you mean by that, Sergeant Major?
A.  Well, because many times, I told him to get out of the
barracks; and he was -- again, like I stated earlier, on the
weekends, he was in the barracks doing, taking care of people,


                      Bob Harris - Direct
because his soldiers were not as -- less than favorable, I
should say.  Though they were -- some of them were not stellar
soldiers.  Some of them would -- give you an example.  Some of
them would go drink on a Friday night and, you know, just come
back and not know exactly where they were at.  Some of them had
a tendency to urinate on other soldiers because they were so
drunk.  And they were -- I tried to help by putting those
soldiers that were less favorable out of the military and to
make his job and other NCOs' job easier.
Q.  Now, on a scale of 1 to 100, how much did Tim McVeigh give?
A.  I don't understand that question, sir.
Q.  On a scale of 1 to 100, how much did Tim McVeigh give?
What percent did he give?
A.  Well, he give a hundred-plus, from my perspective, because
again, not everybody was there -- you know, on his own time and
inspecting and checking and counseling, guiding, motivating
soldiers to be all they could be.
Q.  Now, the Charlie Company had how many men in it when you
were there as First Sergeant?
A.  Sir, that vary a lot, because when I first got there, we
had approximately 90 soldiers and five officers, 90 enlisted
men and five officers.  A company like I had -- like we have,
we authorize 103 enlisted and five officers.  But it varies.
And any time we could have had 70 folks -- I mean as low as 70;
and other, as many as -- like in the Desert Storm, we picked up


                      Bob Harris - Direct
additional people and we had something like 120.
Q.  Now, did there come a time when you and the other troops
went to operation Desert Storm?
A.  I didn't understand that question.  I'm sorry.
Q.  Did there come a time when you and the other soldiers went
to Desert Storm to engage the enemy?
A.  Absolutely.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And when was that?
A.  That was during the portion where the ground war started.
Q.  And were you able to observe Sergeant McVeigh while you
were there?
A.  In some -- there were times that I did.  Sergeant McVeigh's
platoon, the 1st Platoon, was task organized or attached to
another element, which was the 3d of the 37th Armor.  And they
were not with us during -- you know, during the war itself.
Q.  Mr. McVeigh has been described as being a platoon leader
gunner.
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  What is that?
A.  That means that he is the NCO responsible for the vehicle
on the event that platoon leader dismount.  And because anytime
that the soldiers that are -- the dismount folks get off on the
ground, the platoon leader is supposed to be on the ground,
also.  And in case something happens to the platoon leader,
then the platoon sergeant will assume that position.  And the


                      Bob Harris - Direct
platoon sergeant is on the ground, based on the communication
that they have on the Bradley fighting vehicle, which the
platoon leader and the platoon sergeant vehicle each have dual
net radio -- two radios, in other words.  And based on that
fact, the platoon sergeant was on the ground, and then the
platoon leader vehicle would be in control of the platoon or
whomever is inside that vehicle, the senior man.
Q.  Sergeant Major, would you turn, please, to the book of
exhibits that I gave you earlier.  And would you turn, please,
to Tab 2.
A.  Excuse me.
Q.  That's marked McVeigh Exhibit AA2, down in the lower
right-hand corner.  Do you see that?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Is that a copy of the Bronze Star Medal awarded to Sergeant
Timothy James McVeigh?
A.  Yes, it is, sir.
Q.  And would you turn, please, to the next tab, which is Tab
3, and is marked McVeigh Exhibit AA3.
A.  Roger that, sir.
Q.  And is that the Army Commendation Medal awarded June 26,
1991, by the Secretary of the Army to Timothy James McVeigh for
Meritorious Achievement with Valor?
A.  Yes, sir.  Did you say the 25th or the 26th?
Q.  26th of June, 1991.


                      Bob Harris - Direct
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And then would you turn to the next one, which is Tab 4.
This is McVeigh Exhibit AA4.  Do you see that?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Is this the Army Commendation Medal awarded by the
Secretary of the Army to Sergeant Timothy James McVeigh on 27
September 1991, for Meritorious Achievement?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And then would you turn to the next tab, which is McVeigh
Exhibit AA5.
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  This is a Certificate of Achievement awarded to Sergeant
McVeigh -- I'm sorry, Private McVeigh by the colonel who was
commanding at that time?
A.  I couldn't tell you that 'cause I was not there during that
time frame, sir.
Q.  All right.  Sir, would you turn to the next one, which is
AA6.
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Is this during your time period there -- well, it wouldn't
be because this is 28 July 1989.
A.  Yeah, I didn't get there, didn't assume control, until 8th
of January 1990, sir.
Q.  All right.  Then let's turn to Tab 7, which is AA7.
A.  Yes, sir.


                      Bob Harris - Direct
Q.  I believe this was awarded during your time there, wasn't
it?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And is this a Certificate for Leadership Development from
the command sergeant major?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And would you look at AA8, which is behind Tab 8.
A.  Got it, sir.
Q.  And was this awarded while you were there?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And this is a certificate promoting him to sergeant?
A.  Roger that, sir.
Q.  And did you have any role in that promotion, Sergeant Major
Harris?
A.  Well, all enlisted soldiers, sir, in the company that the
platoon sergeant or platoon leader deemed that they have done a
good enough -- they have the potential to go to the next
promotion rank, all the paperwork comes through me.  And I in
turn will talk -- when I was a first sergeant, that is -- I
would in turn talk to the company commander because promotion
was pretty limited.  You know, specifically for core company,
and very limit.  And in turn there were times that five, six
soldiers qualified for a certain rank, but we could only
promote one.  And I would talk to the company commander, would
make a decision of whom was the best qualified to -- more


                      Bob Harris - Direct
deserving, if you will, to get the award.
Q.  Would you turn to AA9.
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Behind Tab 9.
         Do you recognize what is going on in that photograph?
A.  Yes, sir.  The brigade commander, Colonel Moreno -- at

least it appears to me that's who it is -- is presenting
Sergeant McVeigh with an award.
Q.  And is this for during Operation Desert Storm?
A.  Yes, sir.
         MR. JONES:  Move the admission of AA9 and -- McVeigh
Exhibit AA2, AA3, AA4, AA7, AA8, and AA9.
         MS. WILKINSON:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  They are received.
         MR. JONES:  May I publish AA9, your Honor?
         THE COURT:  Yes.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Now, this is -- can you see that, Sergeant Major?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  This is Sergeant McVeigh on the right of the photograph?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And the gentleman giving him the award is who?
A.  The brigade commander, sir.  At least it appears to me to
be the brigade commander, because he does not have a full
facial expression, I couldn't see his face, but it appears to


                      Bob Harris - Direct
be the brigade commander, Colonel Moreno.
Q.  All right.  I show you now what is AA2.  Is this the
certificate memorializing the award of the Bronze Star Medal
issued under the authority of the President of the United
States to Sergeant Timothy James McVeigh?
A.  Roger that, sir.
         MR. JONES:  No further questions.
         THE COURT:  Any cross-examination?
                       CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q.  Good afternoon, Sergeant Major Harris.
A.  How are you doing?
Q.  Fine, thank you.
         Have you said in the past that Bronze Stars were
handed out left and right in the Gulf War?
A.  Yeah, the Bronze Star was frequently award to just about --
many people, yes, ma'am.
Q.  Was that in part because there hadn't been a war for a
while and a lot of soldiers hadn't received awards?
A.  Ma'am, I do not have the answer to that.  You have to get
that answer from the division commander, which was Major
General Rames, and I was just there doing my job.  I don't know
the answer to that.
Q.  But it was your opinion that they were handed out quite
frequently?


                       Bob Harris - Cross
A.  Yes, that was my opinion.  Absolutely.
Q.  You were very impressed with Timothy McVeigh as a soldier;
is that right?
A.  You say I was or wasn't?
Q.  You were.
A.  Yes, ma'am.
Q.  Do you believe that he was a man who, based on his
discipline, his intelligence, and his dedication, could carry
out any mission that he took on?
A.  Yes, ma'am.
         MS. WILKINSON:  No further questions, your Honor.

                     REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Sergeant Major Harris, the truth of the matter is that
Operation Desert Storm was one of the most successful military
ventures this country ever undertook, isn't it?
A.  Absolutely, sir.
Q.  With a minimum of casualties.
A.  Absolutely.
Q.  And a complete surrender of the enemy within, what, 92
hours after the ground war started?
A.  On or about, sir, yes, sir.
Q.  A lot different than some of our other military
engagements, wasn't it?
A.  Yes, sir.


                     Bob Harris - Redirect
Q.  Do you know anyone in Desert Storm that received the Bronze
Star that didn't deserve it?
A.  That I know, no, sir.
Q.  Did Tim McVeigh deserve it?
A.  Absolutely.  We submit him for it and we thought he
deserved it, yes sir.
Q.  I take it the Secretary of the Army doesn't have a
reputation of just carrying them in his pocket and handing them
out, does he?
A.  No, no, sir.
         MR. JONES:  No further questions.  Thank you.
                      RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q.  Mr. Jones just pointed out that the Gulf War was very
successful; and you agree with that, don't you?
A.  Yes, ma'am.
Q.  Kept the casualties to a minimum?
A.  Yes, very minimum.
Q.  Very few American soldiers were killed due to direct combat
with the Iraqis during the Gulf War; isn't that true?
A.  That's correct, ma'am.
Q.  In fact, under 137 American citizens were killed in combat
during the Persian Gulf War; isn't that right?
A.  I do not know the stats, ma'am.  I couldn't tell you yes or
no to that.


                      Bob Harris - Recross
Q.  But you know that it was a very low number; is that right?
A.  Yes, ma'am.
         MS. WILKINSON:  No further questions, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Witness excused?
         MR. JONES:  Yes, sir.
         THE COURT:  You may step down.  You're excused.
         And we'll take the afternoon recess, members of the
jury, remembering, of course, during this 20-minute period, you
will follow the cautions given at all other recesses, avoiding
discussion of the matters that are at issue here and waiting
until you've heard it all before thinking about it even in your
own minds.
         You're excused now, 20 minutes.
    (Jury out at 3:26 p.m.)
         THE COURT:  All right.  We'll be in recess, 20
minutes.
    (Recess at 3:27 p.m.)
    (Reconvened at 3:45 p.m.)
         THE COURT:  Be seated, please.
    (Jury in at 3:46 p.m.)
         THE COURT:  All right.  Next witness.
         MR. BURR:  Debbie Carballo.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right
hand, please.
    (Deborah Carballo affirmed.)



         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  Deborah Carballo, C-A-R-B-A-L-L-O.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  Proceed.
         MR. BURR:  Thank you your Honor.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BURR:
Q.  Good afternoon, Ms. Carballo.
A.  Good afternoon.
Q.  What is your occupation?
A.  I'm a teacher.
Q.  Where do you teach?
A.  At Star Point Central School in Lockport, New York.
Q.  How long have you been teaching at Star Point?
A.  19 years.
Q.  Did you teach somewhere before that?
A.  Yes, I did.  I taught four years -- four and a half years
in private schools in the city of Buffalo.
Q.  So you've been teaching for almost 24 years; is that right?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Do you have any advanced degrees?
A.  Yes, I do.  I have two master's degrees.
Q.  And what are they in?


                   Deborah Carballo - Direct
A.  One is in secondary education, English, and the other is in
Spanish ESL, English as a Second Language.
Q.  What courses have you primarily taught at Star Point?
A.  When I was first hired at Star Point, I taught one Spanish
course and four eleventh-grade Regents' English courses.  And
in 1981, they changed the curriculum in New York State, and I
became a full-time foreign language teacher and chairperson of
that department.
Q.  And is Spanish the language that you teach?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Have you received any awards for teaching excellence?
A.  Yes.  I've been nominated several times for Who is Who
Among American High School Teachers; and an organization called
FIC, Friends for International Caring, gave me an award for the
number of exchange programs that I've arranged between Hispanic
countries and our high school.
Q.  So have you been involved in going with students from the
Lockport, New York, area to other countries?
A.  Yes.  I've gone to Costa Rica, I've gone to Venezuela, and
I've gone to Spain several times.
Q.  Now, in addition to teaching Spanish at Star Point, have
you taken on other responsibilities at the school?
A.  Yes, I have.  I am director of the drama club, and I direct
the school productions.  I also, for 16, 17 years, was the
advisor of the yearbook.


                   Deborah Carballo - Direct
Q.  Do you know Timothy McVeigh?
A.  Yes, I do.
Q.  Did you ever have him as a student in any of your classes?
A.  Yes, I did.  I had him as a student in my Spanish class.
Q.  What year for him was that?
A.  It was his freshman year.
Q.  Was that -- was Spanish a required -- foreign language a
required course in New York state at that time for --
A.  No, it was not.  It was an elective course.
Q.  Did you have a reputation as a hard teacher?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  Was it well deserved?
A.  Yes, it was.
Q.  How was Tim as a student in your class?
A.  He achieved the grades that he got, which were high 70's,
low 80's, doing -- just paying attention in class and not
studying a lot; but I did push him and sent home progress
reports, and he did cooperate and raise his grades.  He
participated very well.  He liked the oral part of it much
better, the talking and the group activity.
Q.  Did you have additional contact with Tim other than in the
one class that he took with you?
A.  Yes.  On various occasions, he helped me out with the stage
crew; and he also -- his senior year had to come to my room
many times because the senior portion of the yearbook requires


                   Deborah Carballo - Direct
that you turn in many things: your senior portrait, your
quotation, your baby picture, just lots of things that I had to
see them usually twice or three times a month.  But I saw him a
lot more.  He always stopped in to visit.
Q.  Did -- on the productions that he helped with, you said he
helped with the stage crew.  Is that right?
A.  Right.
Q.  What did he do?
A.  Painting and helping us build things; and he was pretty
handy, knew how to do things, and seemed to enjoy that a lot.
Q.  Was he helpful?
A.  Very helpful, very neat, well-organized.  When he did
something, I didn't have to clean up after him like I did after
most of the kids.
Q.  What did you think about him as a helper in that regard?
A.  Very responsible, cooperative, and willing to help.  He
used to ask if there was anything he could do.
Q.  Do you have a notebook on your desk right in front of you?
A.  Yes, I do.
Q.  If you would open it and turn to Tab 2.  This is for the
record SS2.  And just look at the very first page there.  Do
you recognize -- and flip through.  Do you recognize what the
document is behind Tab 2?
A.  Yes.  It's the yearbook, the 1986 yearbook that was Tim's
senior year.


                   Deborah Carballo - Direct
         MR. BURR:  Move to admit, your Honor.
         MR. MACKEY:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received, SS2.
BY MR. BURR:
Q.  If you could turn to page 36.  And I have to warn you, they
seem to be a little out of order.
A.  Yes.  I'm on 36.
         MR. BURR:  Can we publish that page, your Honor?
         THE COURT:  Yes.
BY MR. BURR:
Q.  Is Timothy McVeigh on that page?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Could you read what it says under his name.
A.  "People are able because they think they are able."
Q.  Where did that come from?
A.  I'm not sure exactly what source he took it from, but I
always had a lot of restrictions about these quotations.  They
could use Bartlett's book of quotations, and there were several
other books of quotations in the library.  I warned them that
they should not -- there should be no mention of violence or
sex or no rock and roll lyrics.  They should pick something
that represented something about their high school career or
something about themselves that they believed in or something
that reflected something about them, their ideas, their high
school career; and we were very strict about this.  They could


                   Deborah Carballo - Direct
also only pick a certain number of words; and I couldn't tell
you that, because I can't remember.  But only a certain number
of words would fit under the picture.
Q.  Did you actually counsel with students as to what to put
under their name or you just gave them these guidelines?
A.  I gave them the guidelines.  They had to hand in their
quote, and it had to be approved by myself.  If I had
questions, concerns, I went to my principal, who always said to
me, "If you feel it shouldn't go in, it doesn't go in."  So
there were many times when students had their quotations
returned.
Q.  Over the course of Tim's high school years, did you feel
like you got to know him pretty well?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  Knowing Tim as you did and reading what he chose for the
saying under his name, how do you understand what he was
saying?  Put it into context for us.
A.  He was a positive thinker, and I really feel that he felt
if -- he could do with hard work what he needed to do and be
successful.  I think it's an example of the fact that he had a
positive experience in high school and that he was a positive
thinker.
Q.  Now, was Tim chosen to -- as an outstanding person in some
particular category his senior year of high school?
A.  Yes.  He was voted by the senior class in their senior


                   Deborah Carballo - Direct
polls as the most talkative.
Q.  Now, some people in the media have suggested that that was
a joke.  Was it?
A.  Absolutely not.
Q.  Tell us about that.
A.  The senior class each year votes on certain categories:
best-looking, most likely to succeed.  Most talkative is one of
them.  They all vote, and my -- I tally the votes along with
the woman who does the business aspect of the yearbook.  And
the person who gets the most votes in that category is the
person who gets that honor, so to speak.  And it was Tim who
was an avalanche -- it was Tim.
Q.  Let's turn to page 42 of the book.
         MR. BURR:  And if we could publish that page, your
Honor.
         THE COURT:  Yes.
BY MR. BURR:
Q.  Is that reflective of the award we were just talking about?
A.  Yes, it is.
Q.  Ms. Carballo, I notice Tim is talking on the telephone, as
is his female counterpart.  How did -- how was the pose chosen?
Do you know?
A.  He chose it.  This is what they wanted -- he worked it out
with the photographer.  This is where he wanted the picture
taken; and, you know, they each got their chance to be


                   Deborah Carballo - Direct
creative, and he was very creative.  And that was the perfect
place for him to be as he was often there at that phone.
Q.  Was that a phone in the school itself?
A.  Yes.  That's outside the school lobby.
Q.  Some people talk because they don't have much to say and
others talk because they do.  How did Tim fall into that range
of options?
A.  He had a lot to say.  He was very friendly with the
teachers, as well as with the students.
         I wouldn't say that he was in a particular clique.  He
was friends with everybody and friends with all the teachers.
He always said hello to you in the hallway; and, you know, if
you were in your room and he was on his way out and he saw you,
he'd back up and say hi.
Q.  Did you ever see Tim after he graduated?
A.  On one occasion, he came to school and he was dressed in
his uniform, but I don't remember the year.  But I did see him
on one occasion, but I can't remember --
Q.  What uniform did he have on?
A.  His Army uniform.
Q.  Did he speak to you that day?
A.  Yes.  I don't remember the conversation, but I know he
spoke to me, and I remember --
Q.  How did he seem to you at that time?
A.  Very happy.  He looked very handsome and big.  He had grown


                   Deborah Carballo - Direct
up.
Q.  Now, this was -- he graduated in 1986.  Is that right?
A.  Correct.
Q.  So it was more than 10 years ago?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  Do you remember most students from that period of time?
A.  I remember many students.  After teaching for so long, I
can tell you that you remember two kinds of students, the
outstanding students and the very bad students.  And
unfortunately, the middle-of-the-road students sort of fall to
the bottom of your memory.  And I remember him as among the
best students.
Q.  In trying to help someone come to know Tim who had never
met him before, how would you describe him to that person?
A.  He was friendly; a very, very good student; responsible.
He went through high school without ever receiving a
disciplinary referral or detention or anything, which is
quite -- quite a feat.
         He was friends with everybody.  There was not a
teacher that didn't have a good word to say about him, and he
was an excellent student, very good student, very friendly,
helpful.  We knew that if we needed something, you know, we
could ask Tim.
         MR. BURR:  Thank you very much, Ms. Carballo.  Thanks
for waiting all day.
         I have no other questions.
         THE COURT:  Mr. Mackey?
                       CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q.  Ms. Carballo, I understand Mr. McVeigh graduated some 11
years ago.
A.  Yes.
Q.  All right.  And you've seen him once in that time period?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And during the four years he was at Star Point, he was a
class -- or a student of yours in a class of yours?
A.  Right.
Q.  His freshman year only?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Some 14 years ago.
A.  Correct.
Q.  And during the course of his high school career, you saw
him on a few other occasions when he assisted in the drama
club; is that correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  You have been teaching more than 24 years?
A.  Yes.
Q.  You have advanced -- more than one advanced degree.  As a
long-time teacher, can you tell us what the term "critical
thinking" means.


                    Deborah Carballo - Cross
A.  "Critical thinking" means that you consider all viewpoints
before answering a question.  For example, if you're writing a
critical essay, you think about it critically first.  You think
about the pros, the cons, all the different viewpoints before
you create your answer.
Q.  And that's a method of reasoning where students are
instructed to gather facts before they come to any conclusion
or set a course of action.
A.  Exactly.  And it's part of the New York State curriculum in
all areas.
Q.  And that was true during the years that Tim McVeigh was a
student at Star Point?
A.  Yes.
Q.  So the curriculum that he learned under for those four
years was one that supported or encouraged critical thinking?
A.  Yes, it did.
Q.  How did Tim McVeigh do in your Spanish class?
A.  78 to 82 was the range of -- were the range of his grades.
Q.  And you judge that to be an outstanding student?
A.  No, not in my class, not in Spanish.  His -- he was very
good in the speaking aspect of it.  He didn't like the grammar
and the -- I don't think he liked Spanish; but I still say for
somebody to take the course as an elective -- I mean, he
realized the importance of a foreign language and that he was
going to have to work because he knew who I was.


                    Deborah Carballo - Cross
Q.  Star Point keeps records of standardized tests that all of
its students take?
A.  Yes, they do.
Q.  Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1538.
         Is that a record of the standardized test scores of
Timothy McVeigh at Star Point?
A.  Yes, it is.
         MR. MACKEY:  Your Honor, I'd move to admit
Government's Exhibit 1538.
         MR. BURR:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received, 1538.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q.  At the top, it simply says, does it not, Ms. Carballo,
"Standardized Test Record of Timothy McVeigh"?
A.  Yes, it does.
Q.  And based on tests administered to Timothy McVeigh while at
Star Point, what was his IQ?
A.  119.
Q.  And what does that mean?
A.  Above average.
Q.  Well above average?
A.  An average IQ is between 98 and 101.
Q.  Let me direct your attention now to the Line No. 3, Test of
Achievement and Proficiency.  How did he do as reflected on
those scores?


                    Deborah Carballo - Cross
A.  He is in the -- absolute top percentile in both, because
both of those ranks are out of 100; so reading comprehension,
98 out of 100, and mathematics, 99 out of 100, the national
percentile.
Q.  And right below that are his ATC scores for English, math,
social studies, natural sciences and comprehension; correct?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Could you interpret those numbers for the jury, please.
A.  I can only interpret the bottom ones, because I don't
remember the ratio for the top; but the college-bound
percentiles are out of 100, which is the national percentile.
85 in English, 83 in math, 76 in social studies, 95 in natural
sciences, and 90 in comprehension.
Q.  And what do those numbers mean?
A.  That he is well above average in the nation, because
50 percent would be average; and he's at, well, from 76 to 95.
Q.  And how did he do on his SATs?
A.  Outstanding.
Q.  Ver --
A.  500 on verbal and 570 on math.  And both of those are out
of 600 at that time -- were out of 600 percentile.  Today
they're out of 700, so it's different.

Q.  Based on these test scores and what you know about Tim
McVeigh while at Star Point, could he have gotten into college?
A.  Yes.


                    Deborah Carballo - Cross
Q.  Did he go?
A.  To Bryant & Stratton, which was a business college.
Q.  How long did he stay there?
A.  I'm not sure.  I know that he did not graduate from that
school, but I'm not sure how long he stayed.
Q.  Clearly based on all your years of teaching and these
particular test scores, this was a man who had sufficient
intelligence to accomplish many good things?
A.  Yes, he did.
         MR. MACKEY:  That's all.
         MR. BURR:  No further questions, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Excusing the witness?
         You may step down.  You're excused.
         Next, please.
         MS. WELCH:  Sue Campbell.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right
hand, please.
    (Susan Campbell affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  Susan Jan Campbell, C-A-M-P-B-E-L-L.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
         MS. WELCH:  Thank you, your Honor.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION


                    Susan Campbell - Direct
BY MS. WELCH:
Q.  Good afternoon, Ms. Campbell.
A.  Good afternoon.
Q.  Tell us where you're from.
A.  I'm from Grand Island, New York.
Q.  And is Grand Island near Buffalo?
A.  Yes, it is.  It's a little bit south.
Q.  And it's also near the Pendleton/Lockport area?
A.  Yes, it is.
Q.  Are you an English teacher?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And are you teaching right now?
A.  No, I'm not.
Q.  Did you teach at Star Point High School in the past?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  When did you last teach there?
A.  I left in 1988.
Q.  Was Timothy McVeigh one of your students while you were at
Star Point?
A.  Yes, he was.
Q.  Do you recall which years you would have taught him?
A.  1985 and 1986.
Q.  Tell us which classes of yours that Tim was in.
A.  He was in my eleventh-grade Regents' class and in my
twelfth-grade English class.


                    Susan Campbell - Direct
Q.  Explain to us what the eleventh-grade Regents' class is.
A.  Eleventh-grade Regents' class is a class when I was there
that tracked students who were college-bound.  It was a college
prep course.  It had a state-mandated curriculum that I needed
to cover, and there was a state exam that the students had to
pass.
Q.  And if you passed that class, you would get credit for the
regent's diploma?
A.  Yes, that's correct.
Q.  And you could take the exam and get the scholarship?
A.  You can take a Regents' exam; and if you score high enough,
you would obtain a regent's scholarship.
Q.  What do you remember about Tim's performance in your
classes?
A.  I remember that Tim was always a very eager and willing
student.  He was cooperative and he was attentive.  He was
respectful to me as a teacher.  He was a pleasure to have in my
classroom.
Q.  What kinds of assignments were given in the eleventh-grade
Regents' class?
A.  There were a variety of assignments.  As far as writing,
very often it was based on literature that I'd asked the kids
to read.  It could be plays, novels.  They might have to then
write comparisons about characters or analyze the literature.
         There were also assignments, compositions, and essays,


                    Susan Campbell - Direct
along with the regular basics that we call vocabulary,
spelling, grammar.
Q.  And how did Tim approach his assignments?
A.  In general, I would say enthusiastically.
Q.  How did his performance in that class compare with other
students'?
A.  I would say that Tim was always, as I said, eager and
cooperative and would enjoy a challenge.  If something came up
that needed a little bit of extra thought, he was very willing
to do that.
Q.  Did his work show an unusual point of view, or did he --
how did he approach the written assignments that he was given?
A.  Okay.  Very often in a classroom situation, there will be
kids who have an assignment; and if I ask them, for example, to
talk about different characters, most of the kids will choose
main characters to talk about, because they're the easiest ones
there.  There might be the most to say.
         There were a group of kids -- I would always consider
them probably my above-average students -- who would perhaps
choose a more obscure character to write about, where you had
to do a little bit more thinking and maybe go a little bit more
in depth, so it took a little bit more work to come up with
something worthwhile to say.  And very often, that's what Tim
would do.
Q.  What do you remember about him as a person during that


                    Susan Campbell - Direct
period of time?
A.  The first thing I remember about him is probably his sense
of humor and his smile.  I will always remember that.
Q.  Did he tease a lot?
A.  Yes, he did.  He liked to tease, never disrespectful; and,
you know, if it got to a point where, okay, that's enough,
we've got to settle down or get to work or whatever, that's
what we did.  It was never in a -- disrespectful to me as a
teacher or as a person.
Q.  Was he ever a discipline problem that you know of?
A.  Never.
Q.  Did he take part in class discussions?
A.  Yes, he did.
Q.  Do you ever recall him appearing to be an angry person?
A.  No.
Q.  Did he tolerate disagreement with others?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Do you recall seeing Tim after he graduated from high
school?
A.  I don't have a specific recollection of that.
Q.  So really, the only time that you have had any contact with
him was during those two years that you had him as class --
A.  Yes.
Q.  -- in your class?
A.  Yes.
         MS. WELCH:  No further questions, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Any questions?
         MR. ORENSTEIN:  No questions, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  All right.  You may step down.  You're
excused.
         THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  Next?
         MR. JONES:  James Pate, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  All right.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Raise your right hand, please.
    (James Pate affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  James L. Pate, P, as in Paul, A-T-E.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Mr. Pate, what is your occupation?
A.  I'm a journalist.
Q.  And with whom do you currently work?
A.  I am national affairs editor for Soldier of Fortune
magazine.
Q.  And where do you live?
A.  I live in Maryland.  I work primarily in D.C.


                      James Pate - Direct
Q.  And where is Solder of Fortune's editorial offices?
A.  They are located in Boulder, Colorado, about 25 miles from
here.
Q.  When did you begin your career in journalism, Mr. Pate?
A.  1978, January.
Q.  Can you tell me just a little bit about your career from
then up to now, where you have worked and what you've written
in general category form, that type of thing.
A.  Right.  I studied journalism at the University of North
Carolina at Chapel Hill.  My first job out of college was went
back to my hometown, which is Fayetteville, North Carolina.
Worked for The Fayetteville Observer there on state desk,
primarily covering law enforcement and some military coverage
on the state desk.  I was working out in the counties.
         And I left there and went to The Daily News in
Jacksonville, North Carolina, where I was in charge of military
coverage for Camp Lejeune and Cherry Point Marine Corps Air
Station.  I also worked there -- it was a small daily.  I also
worked there in the mornings as an assistant city editor to
help the city editor move copy for an afternoon -- it was an
afternoon paper.
         I left The Daily News after two or three years -- I
can't remember without looking at my r,sum, -- in about, let's
see, '83.  It was the year of the Beirut bombing.
         I went to States News Service in Washington, D.C.,


                      James Pate - Direct
which some people have described as the outward bound of
journalism.  It's a small, independent, supplemental news
service with client newspapers around the country.  And I
worked there covering a variety of -- a variety of issues, but
primarily focusing on the military, did a lot of coverage of
armed services, that type of thing, on Capitol Hill.
         I left States News Service in 1984 after approximately
a year and took my -- took a job with Soldier of Fortune.  That
summer, I worked in El Salvador as a correspondent basically on
a freelance basis; and then they brought me to Boulder in
September of '84, as an associate editor to work in the office.
         I stayed at Soldier of Fortune until 19 -- late '86 or
early '87, and I left there and went to The Virginian Pilot in
Norfolk, Virginia, where I worked covering the Coast Guard, the
Norfolk naval shipyard, and as a police reporter.
         I left Norfolk in 1991 to move back to Colorado and
started -- I worked for a time at a local newspaper in the
mountains here in Winter Park and started -- started
freelancing and again started writing some for Soldier of 
Fortune and did a couple of things for the Denver papers and
freelanced full-time for a period of about five years until
January -- it was a year ago -- Soldier of Fortune magazine put
me back on staff in my present position.  So I've been in that
position about 18 months.
Q.  I want to talk to you just a little bit about the magazine


                      James Pate - Direct
Soldier of Fortune.  First of all, can you tell me what is,
from your experience as a writer for them -- what is the focus
of the reporting of Soldier of Fortune?
A.  Well, it's often described as a paramilitary journal.  It
covers -- it covers wars generally that -- it covers wars that
are covered in the daily press, but it also looks at wars,
low-intensity conflict, counter-insurgency wars in areas that
are often given very little attention or no attention by the
rest of the news media, to more the Korean and Burma, things of
that nature.
         It also does every month, I'm sure -- just about every
month there is an article on Vietnam veterans' affairs, usually
some type of experience or feature that someone had in Vietnam.
There will be a -- there will be a gun article every month,
primarily focusing on military-type infantry weapons at the
infantry level.  Soldier of Fortune is not a magazine that
deals with military topics normally of a strategic nature.
They deal more with the tactical level and the experience of
the foot soldier.
Q.  You indicated -- A moment ago in answering the question,
you made reference to "monthly," so I take it that Soldier of 
Fortune is published monthly?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And in the last several years, what has been the average
circulation figure?


                      James Pate - Direct
A.  Unlike most magazines which rely predominantly on their
subscription -- subscriber base, Soldier of Fortune has the
bulk of its circulation in monthly newsstand sales, so this is
a very broad average; but I called the office last week to find
out about this, because I'm not in the office and don't talk to
the circulation people, but they said approximately 100,000,
and that would be an average.
         And about 20 to 25 percent of that is subscribers and
the rest is newsstand.  For that reason, it fluctuates from
month to month.
Q.  So about 75 percent of the magazine sales are from
newsstands and maybe 25 percent are paid circulation?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And if average monthly sales are 100,000, then you'd have
about 25,000 paid subscribers and 75,000 pay for it over the
counter?
A.  Roughly.
Q.  Now, who makes up the readership of the Soldier of Fortune?
A.  It's been a long time since I've looked at a demographic
survey, but there are a lot of active-duty military readers,
primarily enlisted.  There is a significant portion of the
readership that are in law enforcement, because we do do quite
a bit of law enforcement coverage; Second Amendment advocates,
gun owners, because the editorial policy of the magazine is
stridently pro -- pro gun ownership, pro Second Amendment; a


                      James Pate - Direct
lot of young readers.  I get an occasional letter from, say, a
teenager.
         I once saw a -- I once saw an invoice.  One of the
circulation people brought it up and asked me if it was
legitimate.  The CIA was getting 23 copies a month; so it
circulates well, I think, in federal government.  I know the
ATF reads it very well.
Q.  But basically what, you're telling us aside from
institutional purchasers is that it appeals to young males and
gun owners?
A.  Primarily.  Primarily.  It's considered a men's magazine.
I think Folio magazine, which is a journal that covers the
magazine area, certainly classifies it as a men's magazine.
Q.  Let's talk a little bit about your work for Soldier of 
Fortune and what you write about.  First let me ask you if you
have any contact with the readers of Soldier of Fortune and, if
so, how.
A.  Occasionally.  Soldier of Fortune -- and I've worked for a
number of other publications -- is unusual in the amount of
reader contact that we get.  I think we get -- we have the type
of readers who are vitally interested in the type of issues we
cover, so we do get a lot of response.
         I'm in an office based in Maryland, so a lot of
response to me is indirect through the editorial office in
Boulder.  I get letters forwarded.  I do get some direct phone


                      James Pate - Direct
calls.  The magazine sponsors a convention and a three-gun
competitive shooting match in Las Vegas every September, and we
get quite a bit of reader contact then.
Q.  About how many people come to this annual convention and
shooting fest?
A.  Oh, between -- you're talking about competitors?  Or --
Q.  Attendance.  Conventioneers; right.
A.  Oh, 500 to 5,000, it's ranged over the years.
Q.  All right.  Now, what journalistic method do you use in
your work with Soldier of Fortune?
A.  Well, I don't have any military background, and a number of
people associated with the magazine do.  I'm different in that
I came into the magazine through journalism, but I generally
apply the same journalistic standards and procedures that I use
when I'm writing for the daily press or working for TV.
         The difference is that the type of magazine Soldier of 
Fortune is, I get considerably more leeway in my writing style.
Q.  What do you mean by that?
A.  Well, they certainly allow you to editorialize a little
bit.  Soldier of Fortune comes from a viewpoint.  There is no
doubt about that, and they've never made any secret of that.
For instance, we're pro Second Amendment.
         I -- but in gathering facts, I use the same -- same
methods and procedures that I've used in daily newspapers and
for television.


                      James Pate - Direct
Q.  Now, while you've been writing for Soldier of Fortune, have
you concentrated on any particular area of work particularly in
the last several years?
A.  Well, not only at Soldier of Fortune but through the years
just because of my interests.  When I first went to Washington,
for instance, people were not particularly interested in
covering the military -- reporters, at least the ones I was in
the office with.
         I've always been attracted to military coverage.  It's
a little more difficult than covering other bureaucracies
because of the nature of the military; but military, law
enforcement, terrorism and counterterrorism in the early 80's.
I was writing a lot about POW and MIA affairs, and lately I've
written -- certainly been better known for coverage of federal
law enforcement and particularly federal law enforcement abuse,
primarily by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.  I do
a number of articles every year on the ATF.
Q.  Now, in addition to your writing, have you also appeared on
various television shows and research projects for national
magazines outside Soldier of Fortune in these areas?
A.  Yeah.  I have an unusual relationship with Soldier of 
Fortune now in that I'm a staffer, but I'm still allowed
considerable leeway as a freelancer because my freelance

business was fairly successful.  I've worked as a producer, as
a story consultant for TV.  I've appeared as an unpaid guest on


                      James Pate - Direct
various TV shows, "Larry King Live."  I've been on "Crossfire"
a couple of times; "Tim Russert Show" on CNBC, commenting on
areas -- the First and the Second Amendment, the militarization
of civilian law enforcement, on this case on a couple of
occasions.
Q.  All right.  Now, you have in front of you, I believe, a
notebook with a series of exhibits which I'm going to ask you
to identify.  I'll just show this to you.
         Go ahead, there.
         Can you see your monitor in front of you?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Now, Mr. Pate, I don't know what's easier for you: that you
look at the monitor, or you look at the exhibit in the book, so
I'll leave it to you.
A.  If you give me the exhibit number, I can flip for it.
Q.  WW1.
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Have you got that in front of you?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  This is an article that you wrote for Soldier of Fortune
magazine which appeared in June of 1992?
A.  Yes, sir.  I think that's one of the first articles I had
done for Soldier of Fortune in some time, I believe.
Q.  All right.  And that's a -- looks like a three-page
article.  Is that correct?


                      James Pate - Direct
A.  That's correct.
         MR. JONES:  Move the admission of WW1.
         MR. RYAN:  Object.  Lack of foundation.
         THE COURT:  What's the lack of foundation?
         MR. RYAN:  I'm referring to the affidavit, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Overruled.  Received.
         MR. JONES:  I'll just publish the first page.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  That's WW1 showing on your monitor now?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  All right.  This is just for you, Mr. Pate.
         THE COURT:  I take it in offering these, you're not
expecting us to read everything in here.
         MR. JONES:  No, your Honor.  Not today.  Of course
not.
         THE COURT:  And he's going to be summarizing some of
this.
         MR. JONES:  Summarizing, yes; and then there is
another witness that will talk about some of these.  But no, we
don't intend to read them.
         THE COURT:  And you're offering this for the limited
purpose of explaining what's been in the magazine and therefore
what may have been an influence on Mr. McVeigh's views,
perceptions and opinion?
         MR. JONES:  Exactly, your Honor.


                      James Pate - Direct
         THE COURT:  All right.  It's going to be received for
the limited purpose of that and not, of course, for the truth
of anything that is in there.
         I'm not insulting you.
         THE WITNESS:  No, sir.  None taken.  None taken.
         MR. JONES:  All right.  I've forgotten where I was,
but I think I was moving WW3.
         THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Now, if you'll turn over to Tab 6 --
         MR. JONES:  I'm sorry.  I don't know if the Court
ruled on WW3 yet.
         THE COURT:  Well, you're going to have the same
objection to all.
         MR. RYAN:  Not on WW3, your Honor, no.  It's referred
to in the affidavit.
         THE COURT:  All right.  WW3 is received.
         MR. JONES:  WW6.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  WW6 received.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  WW6 is an article written by you, isn't it?
A.  Yes, sir.  That's the first article I wrote about the ATF
raid in Waco, Texas.
         MR. JONES:  All right.  May we publish this?


                      James Pate - Direct
         THE WITNESS:  I beg your pardon, sir?
         THE COURT:  He's talking to me.
         Yes, you may.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  This is an article that when the magazine was opened it
spread across two pages; so that's the reason they're side by
side, isn't it?
A.  Yes, sir.  It's called a -- I guess you'd say is a "double
truck."
         MR. JONES:  WW10.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  WW10 is an article that you wrote which appeared in Soldier 
of Fortune after the events of April 19, 1993?
A.  Yes, sir.  Actually, that article was written that day
because I was filing my second story and someone walked into
the editor's office and said, "Have you guys looked at TV?"
         And we turned on TV, and there was a fire; so we had
to start -- start over.
         MR. JONES:  Move the admission of WW10.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received.
         MR. JONES:  Publish?
         THE COURT:  Yes.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  This is WW10?


                      James Pate - Direct
A.  Yes, sir.  That's mine.
Q.  All right, sir.
         I show you now or you have in front of you WW13.  And
is this an article that you wrote which appeared in the Soldier 
of Fortune for August of 1993?
A.  Yes, sir, it is.
Q.  All right, sir.
         MR. JONES:  Move the admission of WW13.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  If you'll look at WW14, which is a Soldier of Fortune
article.  My exhibit tab has covered up the date, but September
of '93, I'm told.  Is this an article which you wrote?
A.  Yes, sir.
         MR. JONES:  Move the admission of WW14.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received.
         MR. JONES:  Move to publish.
         THE COURT:  Yes.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Now, this is labeled, "Exclusive:  BATF's Magic Bullet," so
just tell me in summary what you're saying here without
unnecessary detail.
A.  That is about some ammunition that we were told by a couple


                      James Pate - Direct
of federal law enforcement sources that had been used by the
ATF in their initial raid on Waco, Texas.
Q.  All right.  And then this article was accompanied by some
photographs of the various types of bullets.  It was about five
pages.  Is that correct?
A.  Yes, sir.  I believe they're all basically the same type of
ammunition, and there are just different manufacturing
variations at various stages of development.
Q.  All right, sir.  Would you turn to Tab 15.
         Now, is this an article which you wrote for the
Soldier of Fortune magazine in October of 1993?
A.  Yes, sir.
         MR. JONES:  Move to admit WW15.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received.
         MR. JONES:  May I publish?
         THE COURT:  Yes.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Now, again, is this one of those spread issues, so that
your article, you open it --
A.  It's on two pages, yes, sir.
Q.  Now, what is the gist of this article?
A.  This was a follow-up visit that I made to Waco after the
fire to find out how the -- some of the surviving Davidians
were doing and to in that context do some follow-up on new


                      James Pate - Direct
developments that we had learned of since we had written about
it before.  I think in the first year after Waco, we -- after
the raid in February -- and there is approximately a 90-day
delay that we have in -- from an event to actually getting the
magazine on the street.  But the first year, I think we did 11
or 12 issues in a row that had Waco stories in them.  The
readers were tremendously interested in that.
Q.  This is an article that was about almost 10 pages long,
wasn't it?
A.  I'd have to count them.
         Well, I count eight, including the jump.
Q.  Eight pages.
         Now, would you turn to Tab 16, WW16.
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Is WW16 an article that you wrote which appeared in the
October, 1993 issue of Soldier of Fortune concerning the ATF?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Now --
         MR. JONES:  I move to admit WW16.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received.
         MR. JONES:  Move to publish.
         THE COURT:  Yes.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Now, what -- you say here, "Exclusive Interview with Gun


                      James Pate - Direct
Gestapo Insider."  Do you see that?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  What are you saying here?  What's going on?
A.  We found someone who was in the ATF who had -- was not at
Waco but had quite a bit of dealings professionally through his
job with some of the key people from the ATF who were involved
in the Waco investigation, and this was a -- this person's
viewpoint on what it was like to work in ATF and particularly
dealing with management and how management dealt with
rank-and-file agents.
Q.  And this, you're interviewing a former ATF agent or
employee of the Bureau?
A.  That person -- and we did not identify that person in the
magazine.  He was identified by his pseudonym, because I
believe at the time this was published, that person was, I
think, still employed.  I know when I interviewed him, he was
still employed and there was -- he has since left ATF.
Q.  All right, sir.
         Now, turn to WW18.  Would you look at that, please.
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Is this a copy of an article that you wrote which appeared
in the November, 1993 issue of Soldier of Fortune?
A.  Yes, sir, it is.
Q.  Now --
         MR. JONES:  I move to admit WW18.


                      James Pate - Direct
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received.
         MR. JONES:  Move to publish.
         THE COURT:  You may.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Now, you've labeled this one, have you not, "Waco:  Behind
the Cover-up"?
A.  Well, that's the headline.  And journalists are familiar
with this old saw, but I don't write the headlines.  I file the
copy.  The editors who lay it out, they have a headline story
conference; and the headlines are a joint effort by people in
the office.  So when you say I labeled it, no, I did not.
Q.  Believe me, I'm familiar with the concept.
         What are you trying to say here in this article?
What's the highlight of this article?
A.  This is an interview with two people who happen to be
husband and wife, who were gun dealers, who sold firearms to
David Koresh and who were also socially acquainted with -- not
only with David Koresh but with many of the people at -- who
lived at Mt. Carmel.  And this is their experience after they
voluntarily contacted the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms on the day of the raid, the ATF raid in Waco, which
was February 28, 1993, and their attempts to cooperate in hopes
of defusing any further violence.
         One of the key aspects of this story is that Henry


                      James Pate - Direct
McMahon, the gun dealer who was visited by an ATF compliance
agent in July or August of '92, six or eight months prior to
the raid, had got David Koresh on the phone and gotten
Mr. Koresh's permission for the ATF agents who were asking
about these weapons transactions to come out and visit him at
Mt. Carmel and inspect his firearms.
Q.  So you were now interviewing this individual?
A.  Two individuals, Henry McMahon and Karen Kilpatrick.
Q.  And they were representing to you their experiences with
the ATF which you then wrote about and published?
A.  Right.  They now, I believe, have a lawsuit pending against
the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms due to the
experiences laid out in this article.
Q.  Now, I want to turn over, if I may, to WW19.  This is an
article which you wrote which appeared in the November, 1993
issue of Soldier of Fortune?
A.  It appeared in the same issue that the one we just
previously referred to, yes, sir.
Q.  All right.
         MR. JONES:  Move the admission of WW19.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received.  You may publish.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Now, Mr. Pate, this is not an article as such about Waco,
is it?


                      James Pate - Direct
A.  No, but it was an article that spun out of our interest in
Waco in trying to run down various leads.  This is an article
about a federal firearms licensee in South Carolina who had
sold gun parts to David Koresh and who was referred to by
reference in the search warrant affidavit and I believe was
referred to as a criminal suspect.
         And this is ultimately -- this article is about what
ultimately happened to him, when the ATF raided his business
and how that raid was conducted, the aftermath of that raid and
the dismissal -- subsequent dismissal of all charges.
Q.  All right.  Would you turn, please, to WW20.
         WW20:  This is an article written by you?
A.  Yes, sir, it is.
Q.  For Soldier of Fortune magazine?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  For December, 1993?
A.  Yes, sir.
         MR. JONES:  Move the admission of WW20.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received.  You may publish.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Now, this is labeled "ATF's Next Big Mistake" and appears
to be an aerial photograph of something.  Is that correct?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  What is the theme of this article?  What is it about?


                      James Pate - Direct
A.  This is an article about the Church Universal and
Triumphant in Montana, whom some have described as a,
quote/unquote, "survivalist cult."  Among other things, they
had one of the largest concentration of privately owned nuclear
bomb shelters in the United States, if not the western
hemisphere.
Q.  In fact, you've got pictures of that in here?
A.  Yes, sir, we do.
         And they were also believers in the Second Amendment,
and they had been under investigation by the ATF.  And they had
been the topic at that point of some TV magazine pieces, and
there was quite a bit of speculation because of the attention
they had drawn from ATF -- there was quite a bit of speculation
in the aftermath of the Waco raid that there was going to be a
similar-type operation in Montana, in Paradise Valley.
         This particular photograph, this compound is just
north of the Montana border, just outside of Yellowstone Park.
Q.  So your article is about their apprehensions and concerns
and anxiety about --
A.  Right, and about this relationship of this Church Universal
and Triumphant with the community at large in Park County,
Montana, and the frictions between the church members and the
community, the local sheriff's department, and the attention
that they had drawn from ATF.
Q.  All right.  Let's turn to WW21.


                      James Pate - Direct
         WW21 is an article written by you for the January,
1994 issue of Soldier of Fortune?
A.  Yes, sir.
         MR. JONES:  Move to admit WW21.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received.  You may publish.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  This article is entitled "The Government's Waco Whitewash,"
and you make some reference or someone makes a reference in the
headline to "Treasury Report on Raid, A Damage-Control
Masterpiece."  Do you see that?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And there is a photograph of something up in the upper
right-hand corner?
A.  That is the cover of the Treasury Department investigative
report on the Waco raid.
Q.  And Vernon Wayne Howell was the legal name of David Koresh.
Is that correct?
A.  Actually, when he died, his legal name was David Koresh;
but that was the name he had been more commonly known by in
McLennan County, Texas.
Q.  What is this article about?
A.  This is an analysis, if you will, or a critique of the
Treasury Department's Waco report.  It was remarkably candid in
many respects but also noteworthy for a number of areas of the


                      James Pate - Direct
raid that they failed to address.
Q.  And so you were critiquing the report?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  All right.  Now, would you turn to WW22.
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Is this an article written by you for Soldier of Fortune
for February of 1994?
A.  Yes, sir.
         MR. JONES:  Move to admit WW22.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received.  You may publish.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Now, this article says, "Waco Whitewash Continues."  Do you
see that?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Now, what is the theme of the article here?  What are you
suggesting in this article?
A.  Well, on the heels, I think -- I forgot the exact time --
two or three weeks after the Treasury report was released in
Washington, the Department of Justice released their report on
the conduct of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the Waco
standoff and subsequent fire.
         And it was another critique, an analysis; and it was,
I thought, less candid, less circumspect than the Treasury
report and thus a more out-and-out, just -- what the headline


                      James Pate - Direct
says:  It was a whitewash.
Q.  Now, I want to ask you to look just a moment at page 58 of
the article.
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And there are two photographs there.  Do you see them?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  All right.  Without in any way being argumentative about
it, just tell me what these two photographs are and what they
represent insofar as your article is concerned.
A.  These are still photos taken from a video which was -- they
look like black-and-white photographs.  They're actually
forward-looking infrared radar which shows heat, and heat shows
up as a light area and the absence of heat shows up as darker
areas.  And it doesn't necessarily mean cold but the relative
absence of heat compared to the warmer areas.
         And it shows various stages of Day 51 on February -- I
mean April 19, 1993, the final day of the Waco siege, when the
armored vehicles were dismantling Mt. Carmel; and I believe
this shows -- and this is taken from the Government report --
shows the FBI's contention on where there were points of
ignition just prior to the fire.
Q.  Now, someone reading this article:  What is the point you
want the reader to understand or believe about these two
pictures?
A.  Well, we were raising questions about whether the


                      James Pate - Direct
Government's interpretation -- the FLIR video was correct;
whether the points of ignition were in the same areas.  And I
think one photo, we point to what appears to be a point of
ignition in the rubble of the gymnasium behind Mt. Carmel that
was not considered to be a key point of ignition by the -- in
the FBI's interpretation or the interpretation of the Justice
Department report.
Q.  You say still photo from FLIR.  What's FLIR?
A.  Forward-looking infrared radar.
Q.  And where do you take that from?  How is that taken?
A.  That is taken from a video camera mounted in the nose of an
aircraft that was circling.  Actually I believe for various
times there were two and on some occasions three aircrafts at
different altitude shooting FLIR.  Some were FBI, civilian
aircraft at various times.  There were a couple of military
aircraft involved, too; FLIR video.
Q.  All right.  WW23.  Is this an article that you wrote which
appeared in the March, 1994 issue of Soldier of Fortune?
A.  Yes, sir, it is.
         MR. JONES:  Move the admission of WW23.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received, and you may publish.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Now, in this article, on page 80 -- or 62, rather, there is
a photograph of an individual that's identified as Dr. Alan


                      James Pate - Direct
Stone.  Do you see that?
A.  That's correct, yes, sir.
Q.  Now, what was the point that you were making to the reader
here?  What did you want the reader to understand?
A.  Dr. Stone is on the faculty at Harvard University of both
the medical school and the law school.  He is a forensic
psychiatrist.  He was one of a panel of experts who was invited
or solicited -- I believe paid by the Department of Justice to
compile the Justice Department report.
         And we got very interested in Dr. Stone because he
withheld his conclusions at the end of the time prior to
publication and insisted on issuing a separate report, because
his findings differed dramatically from other panel members in
the Department of Justice report.
         And he, interestingly, we thought, came to some of the
same conclusions about the government's conduct at Waco that we
had arrived at; so we found that of great interest.
Q.  Is it fair to say he was a critic of the official
government report?
A.  He was a strong critic.  I think the lead to the story
again -- the lead to the story is that he will probably never
again be asked to serve as a consultant for the U.S. Department
of Justice, he was so critical.
         And it was interesting to me that the Federal Bureau
of Investigation, within a very short time, less than a day of


                      James Pate - Direct
when he issued his report, they issued a press release --
         MR. RYAN:  Your Honor, I'm going to object, unless
this is contained in the article.  I can't tell.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Do you reference the press release in the article?
A.  Yes, sir, we do.  I'm not certain on that, but I believe it
is.
Q.  In any event, the FBI responded to Dr. Stone's criticism?
A.  Right.
Q.  All right.  Now, would you turn to WW25.
         I'm sorry.  I've overlooked one.  WW24.  Let's go to
'24.  Yes.  Turned one too many tabs.
         Is WW24 an article that you wrote for Soldier of 
Fortune which appeared in the April, 1994 issue?
A.  Yes, sir, it is.
         MR. JONES:  Move the admission of WW24.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received.  You may publish.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Now, what is the -- first of all, tell me what the article
is about, and then I want to ask you what it is you wanted the
reader to understand.
A.  This is an article about a man named Mark Domangue, who
owned a hotel in Waco, Texas, the Brittney, who befriended the
Branch Davidians after the fire, and it -- he provided them a


                      James Pate - Direct
place -- some of them -- a place to live in the aftermath of
the fire because they didn't have anywhere else to go and they
didn't have jobs.  I think he provided them some work.  There
was an exchange going on that they provided some work in the
hotel.
         The article is what happened to Mr. Domangue when he
ran afoul of the IRS.  It was not a major story in the Waco
coverage.  It was an interesting sort of sidelight that this
man befriended the IR -- befriended the Branch Davidians, and
it was the way that the IRS handled the case.
Q.  That is what you wanted the reader to understand?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  All right, sir.
A.  There was some implied retribution there, I think.
Q.  WW25.  Is this an article that you wrote which appeared in
Soldier of Fortune magazine for April of 1994?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And --
         MR. JONES:  Move to admit WW25, your Honor.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received, may be published.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Now, again, let's take this article, Mr. Pate.  Tell me,
first of all, what this article is about and then tell me what
it is you wanted the reader to understand from reading it.


                      James Pate - Direct
A.  This is an article about a man named Louis Katona III, who
was in the -- is in the real estate business in central Ohio.
He's also a part-time police officer for a couple of municipal
police departments and an avid gun collector.  As a matter of
fact, he was a Class III collector.  He collected machine guns.
And the story is about his experiences with the ATF after he
got in a dispute with his chief and what transpired.  It was a
particularly egregious raid, because it was alleged by
Mr. Katona and his wife that she miscarried a child in the
third trimester of her pregnancy after being pushed against the
wall by an ATF agent during the raid.
Q.  This is an article that you wrote which is critical of the
ATF but not related to Waco.  Is that correct?
A.  No, sir.  It was in no way related to Waco.
Q.  All right.  WW26.  This is an article you wrote for Soldier 
of Fortune which appeared in the May, 1994 issue?
A.  Yes, sir.
         MR. JONES:  Move the admission of WW26.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received, may be published.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  This article is entitled, "Special Forces Involved in Waco
Raid," is it not?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Would you take a moment and tell me first of all what is


                      James Pate - Direct
the article about and what is it that you wanted the reader to
understand about it.
A.  The article is about the fact that the ATF agents involved
in the Waco raid prior to that raid, up to the very time of the
raid, were trained by a detachment from 3d Battalion, 3d
Special Forces Group, at Fort Bragg, North Carolina; and in the
course of interviewing military sources for this story, it was
stated to me that this training detachment had crossed the line
in the types of training that they provided -- that they had
provided some types of training that they were not supposed to
provide to civilian law enforcement.
         And what we wanted to tell the reader -- suggest to
the reader was that there was some potential violations of the
Posse Comitatus Act -- potential.
Q.  All right.  And what is the Posse Comitatus Act as you
understand it?
A.  The Posse Comitatus Act was passed in the 1870's after the
Civil War; that it's generally understood to prohibit the
involvement of the active duty military in civilian law
enforcement, in the enforcement of civilian laws in this
country.  There have been a number of exceptions passed since
1980.
Q.  Now, would you turn to Tab 27, which is WW27.
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Is this an article that you wrote which appeared in Soldier 


                      James Pate - Direct
of Fortune magazine from May, 1994?
A.  Yes, it is.
         MR. JONES:  Move the admission of WW27.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received, may be published.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Now, this article by you is entitled, "Judgment Day:  The
Waco Trial"?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Would you tell me what the article is about and then what
was the point you were trying to make for the reader.
A.  The article is about the trial of 11 Branch Davidians in
San Antonio, Texas, approximately a year after the ATF raid on
Waco.  It covers various aspects of the trial, recounts
testimony.  It is critical of the judge in the case.
Q.  An exception, I'm sure.
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  That was the point you were making for the reader?
A.  Right.  It was what I thought were the -- in as much as you
can encompass in a two-month trial in 2- or 3,000 words what we
thought were significant portions of testimony and evidence.
Q.  All right.  Now, would you turn to WW28.  This is an
article that you wrote which appeared in the June, 1994 issue
of Soldier of Fortune?
A.  Yes, sir, it is.


                      James Pate - Direct
         MR. JONES:  Move to admit WW28, your Honor.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received.  May be published.
BY MR. JONES:
Q.  Now, this article is entitled, "Judgment Day:  The Waco
Trial, Part 2."  I take it it's in reference to the sentence
imposed.
A.  It also has some trial coverage in it.  It's Part 2 of our
trial coverage, and it dealt specifically with the fact that --
the first article was filed -- it had just gone to the printers
when the verdict came back, and we had some other testimony and
evidence that we wanted to inform our readers about.  And
probably more importantly is after the verdicts were rendered,
there was some confusion about the counts against the Davidians
and the guilt or the innocence on some of the counts.  And
there was a change made by Judge Walter Smith, I believe in
Count Three.  And don't hold me to that, because I don't have
the charge sheet in front of me; but that significantly altered
the length of the sentences that some of the key defendants
received.
Q.  So would it be fair to say that your article here, WW28, is
critical of the decisions made with respect to sentencing of
the Branch Davidians?
A.  Yes.
         THE COURT:  I think we'll interrupt it at this point.
         MR. JONES:  All right, sir.
         THE COURT:  It's close to 5, and we'll return tomorrow
morning, Mr. Pate, and you'll be back on the stand.
         THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
         THE COURT:  At 9:00 in the morning.  You're excused
till then.
         THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
         THE COURT:  Members of the jury, we're going to recess
now; but before we do, I want to give you a brief explanation
of what is happening with this witness and also will be with
respect to some witnesses tomorrow and some exhibits.
         We're not going to ask you, the jury, in that case to
decide what happened at Waco.  You already heard from this
witness that there have been reports done by Department of
Justice, the Treasury Department, and also a trial was held on
some charges there; but it isn't an issue here and we're not
going to try the events at Waco, what actually occurred or with
respect to any of the other matters that may be testified to by
this and other witnesses.
         The purpose of hearing information in the way of
testimony and exhibits about these views and opinions that some
have expressed concerning federal law enforcement activities,
including their perceptions of fairness, and so forth, is that
it may be considered with respect to the issues here possibly
as mitigation, like some of what you have heard and saw during
the trial.  At times, you'll remember I said that the material
was being admitted not for the truth of the matter but rather
for the mere fact that these things were being asserted.
         And here, what we are receiving now in evidence and
will be also tomorrow is being received for the limited purpose
of perhaps explaining something about Timothy McVeigh's views,
perceptions, and beliefs for whatever consideration you may
wish to give them with respect to the circumstances of the
offense and the character of the defendant.
         And then it will be for you to decide, as I will
explain to you in detail in the instructions when this matter
is given to you for deciding -- for you to decide -- it will be
for you to determine what relevance this may have with respect
to mitigating factors and the weighing process that I will talk
about in some detail.
         So I just wanted you to be reassured that we are not
opening up this for full trial of Waco or any other events; and
I also, of course, want to again caution you:  We are moving
right along here, but we haven't completed the taking of the
testimony or the receipt of the exhibits.  And as I told you
when we started last week on this phase, this is very much like
the trial phase, in that you've heard from Government
witnesses, you're hearing from defense witnesses.  Then you
will be hearing argument from the lawyers with respect to the
issues, and then you'll hear from me on the law that governs
you in the decisional process.
         And again, that will be given to you, just as I did in
the instructions at the trial.  It will be given to you by my
reading to you written instructions, and then you'll receive
copies of them again, as was the case during the trial.
         So that will help, I think, for you to follow a
deliberative process in approaching the important questions
that you must decide.
         We haven't gotten there yet.  So again, just as during
all of the recesses during the trial, I caution you to keep
open minds, avoiding discussion among yourselves and with all
other persons and, of course, continuing to avoid anything that
you might inadvertently see, hear, or come across in any form
of communication or publication, knowing that you should decide
based on what happens in front of you in this room.
         So with that, members of the jury, you're excused till
9:00 tomorrow morning.
    (Jury out at 5:02 p.m.)
         THE COURT:  Trial will be in recess till 9 a.m.
    (Recess at 5:03 p.m.)
                         *  *  *  *  *




                             INDEX
Item                                                      Page
WITNESSES
    Lynn Drzyzga
         Direct Examination by Ms. Welch       
    Richard Drzyzga
         Direct Examination by Ms. Welch       
    Vincent Capparra
         Direct Examination by Mr. Coyne       
    Linda Daigler
         Direct Examination by Mr. Burr        
    James Hardesty
         Direct Examination by Mr. Nigh        
         Cross-examination by Ms. Wilkinson    
    Bob Harris
         Direct Examination by Mr. Jones       
         Cross-examination by Ms. Wilkinson    
         Redirect Examination by Mr. Jones     
         Recross-examination by Ms. Wilkinson  
    Deborah Carballo
         Direct Examination by Mr. Burr        
         Cross-examination by Mr. Mackey       
    Susan Campbell
         Direct Examination by Ms. Welch       

WITNESSES (continued)
    James Pate
         Direct Examination by Mr. Jones       
                     PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS
Exhibit      Offered  Received  Refused  Reserved  Withdrawn
1538          12714    12714
                     DEFENDANT'S EXHIBITS
Exhibit      Offered  Received  Refused  Reserved  Withdrawn
AA2-AA4       12698    12698
AA7-AA9       12698    12698
SS2           12707    12707
WW1           12730    12730
WW10          12732    12732
WW13          12733    12733
WW14          12733    12733
WW15          12734    12734
WW16          12735    12735
WW18          12736    12737
WW19          12738    12738
WW20          12739    12739
WW21          12741    12741
WW22          12742    12742
WW23          12744    12744
WW24          12746    12746
WW25          12747    12747
               DEFENDANT'S EXHIBITS (continued)
Exhibit      Offered  Received  Refused  Reserved  Withdrawn
WW26          12748    12748
WW27          12750    12750
WW28          12751    12751
WW3           12731    12731
WW6           12731    12731
                         *  *  *  *  *
                    REPORTERS' CERTIFICATE
    We certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from
the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.  Dated
at Denver, Colorado, this 9th day of June, 1997.

                                 _______________________________
                                         Paul Zuckerman

                                 _______________________________
                                          Kara Spitler