OKC Bombing Trial Transcript - 06/04/1997 22:11 CDT/CST
06/04/1997
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH,
Defendant.
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REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury - Volume 133)
컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴�
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 1:37 p.m., on the 4th day of June,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK M. RYAN, United States Attorney for the
Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400,
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
JOSEPH H. HARTZLER, LARRY A. MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON,
SCOTT MENDELOFF, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, AITAN GOELMAN, and VICKI
BEHENNA, Special Attorneys to the U.S. Attorney General, 1961
Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver, Colorado, 80294, appearing
for the plaintiff.
STEPHEN JONES, ROBERT NIGH, JR., RICHARD BURR, and
STEVEN ENGLAND, Attorneys at Law, Jones, Wyatt & Roberts, 999
18th Street, Suite 2460, Denver, Colorado, 80202; MANDY WELCH,
Attorney at Law, 412 Main, Suite 1150, Houston, Texas, 77002;
CHERYL A. RAMSEY, Attorney at Law, Szlichta and Ramsey, 8 Main
Place, Post Office Box 1206, Stillwater, Oklahoma, 74076, and
CHRISTOPHER L. TRITICO, Attorney at Law, Essmyer, Tritico &
Clary, 4300 Scotland, Houston, Texas, 77007, appearing for
Defendant McVeigh.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(Reconvened at 1:37 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 1:38 p.m.)
THE COURT: Call your next witness.
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you, your Honor. Government
calls Tillie Westberry. Miss Wilkinson will question her.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Mathilda Westberry affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My legal name is Mathilda,
M-A-T-H-I-L-D-A, Westberry, W-E-S-T-B-E-R-R-Y.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Miss Wilkinson.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Westberry. How you doing?
A. Okay.
Q. You okay this afternoon?
A. Yes.
Q. Why don't you tell the jury where you currently live.
A. In Keystone Heights, Florida.
Q. How long have you lived there?
A. Since October of '95.
Q. Where did you live before that?
A. Oklahoma City.
Mathilda Westberry - Direct
Q. And where did you grow up?
A. Enid, Oklahoma.
Q. And did you go to high school in that area?
A. Yes, I went to Kremlin High School, which is about 8 miles
north of Enid.
Q. And after you finished high school, did you go on to
college?
A. Yes, I went to nursing school at Enid General School of
Nursing and then went up to St. Paul Bible College in
Minnesota.
Q. When you were at St. Paul Bible College, did you meet
somebody special there?
A. Yes, I met Bob Westberry.
Q. Did you marry him?
A. Yes.
Q. How long were you married to him?
A. 36 1/2 years.
Q. Tell us what happened to him.
A. On the morning of April the 19th, it was a usual morning,
and we got up and were preparing to go to work and at breakfast
had spoken about the fact that the next day would be the
anniversary date of our daughter's death on the 20th. And I
went to -- well, it was my practice to follow him to the door
when he left for work. And on that particular morning, for
some reason, I gave him a whack on the seat of the pants and
Mathilda Westberry - Direct
told him an extra I love you, and then I went back to the
cabinet, was fixing my lunch for the day. And I knew about how
long it would take for him to back out, and then I quick ran to
the front door and watched him back off.
Q. Did you ever see him again?
A. No. No.
Q. Now, you told us or you just mentioned that you had a
daughter who passed away; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. How old was she when she died?
A. She was 28.
Q. And how long ago was that?
A. On April the 20th of 1988.
Q. Do you have other children?
A. I have three other children.
Q. How old are they?
A. Sue is 36, Robin is 34, and Glen is 32.
Q. Do all of your children have children?
A. Yes.
Q. How many children does Sue have?
A. Three.
Q. And how old are they?
A. Rachael is 10, Stephen is 12, and Timothy is 14.
Q. What about Robin, how old are her children?
A. Joshua is six and Rebecca is five months.
Mathilda Westberry - Direct
Q. And your youngest child is Glen, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Your baby boy?
A. Yes.
Q. And does Glen have a child?
A. Yes, David.
Q. How old is David right now?
A. He's six and a half.
Q. Now, as you and your husband -- during your married years,
did you have an opportunity to live close to any of your
children?
A. We lived the closest to Glen and Bev and David.
Q. And that was after all your kids left the house, obviously;
right?
A. Yeah.
Q. And when were you living close to Glen and his wife and his
child?
A. When we lived the first seven years in Hollywood, Florida,
from '85 to '92, and then for a short time they relocated to
Oklahoma when we moved to Oklahoma City in '92, November of
'92.
Q. And did your husband develop a relationship with David,
your grandson?
A. Very close. Very close relationship between the two of
them.
Mathilda Westberry - Direct
Q. Describe that for us briefly, could you?
A. Well, he was -- Bob was known as "papa" to all the
grandchildren. And David had always been at our house a lot
and of course preferred Bob much -- you know, which I didn't
mind. And it was like the one time we -- the first Christmas
that -- after we moved back -- after they moved back to Orlando
and we went to visit them and I was standing first in the
doorway, you know, he just bypassed me and just shot straight
into Bob's arms.
And he was just very close.
Q. And how old was David when Bob passed away?
A. Four.
Q. Now, before we talk about the impact on David, can you tell
us a little bit about your husband's career.
A. He -- when we first got married, he started with law
enforcement. He was a Daytona Beach police officer, and then
he was a Florida state trooper for about seven years. And then
in '69, he went with Navy intelligence. He spent a year in
Vietnam from August of '70 to '71; and when he came back, he
was assigned to San Antonio, Texas. And then in 1972, when DIS
or Defense Investigative Services was started, and he was a
charter employee of DIS until he died.
Q. So he was employed by the Defense Investigative Service in
April of 1995?
A. Yes, yes, he was.
Mathilda Westberry - Direct
Q. How long had he been an employee with them?
A. Since 1992.
Q. 1992?
A. '72, I'm sorry.
Q. And what was his assignment at the time of the bombing?
A. He was the senior agent in charge or SAC. They called them
SACs.
Q. So he ran the office there in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, he was a supervisor, uh-huh.
Q. Now, after the bombing, did you find out immediately what
had happened to your husband?
A. No, I didn't. I didn't know for about 45 minutes.
Q. And what did you learn?
A. Well, I was at work at Aetna, and there had been a lot of
confusion in the office about the explosion and a fire
downtown, and I tried to call him twice and with no response.
And I was -- continued to do my job, and then one of the
fellows walked in that worked for Aetna and said it -- you
know, there was some thought that it might have been the
courthouse. And he said it wasn't the courthouse, it was the
federal building, and that's when -- the first time that I knew
that anything could have possibly happened to him.
Q. Did there come a time when your pastor called you and
brought -- or you went down to the church?
A. Yes. I terminated the phone call that I was on at the time
Mathilda Westberry - Direct
and went to the conference room where they had a TV on and went
and looked to -- for myself to make sure that it was the
federal building. And when I came back from the conference
room, he had left a voice message that he had seen the news and
that -- he would come pick me up or I could come spend the
morning over there.
Q. Now, over April 19 and April 20, you didn't know the
whereabouts of your husband; right?
A. No, I didn't, not until Saturday, four days later.
Q. While you were waiting for him, did your children and
grandchildren come to Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, Glen came in that first evening. He flew in about
11:00. And Sue and Robin and their families came in the next
day. And then Glen's wife, Beverly, and David flew in the
following day.
Q. On Saturday, you found out about your husband?
A. Yes, that evening, at about 6:00.
Q. And did you tell your family?
A. Well, we were all there when the DIS regional officers came
in and told us. We all found out at the same time.
Q. And how did your grandson, David, respond?
A. Well, when Glen and Bev told him . . . he cried . . .
sorry -- he cried uncontrollably. He would not be comforted.
He wanted to see his papa right now. And so in the next day or
so, he had to -- he asked to see the building, because he had
Mathilda Westberry - Direct
been in the federal building to visit Bob when Glen and Bev
lived there. And so he -- they had taken, you know -- he had
been there and he knew what the building looked like, and so he
asked to be taken down there so he could see. So they took him
as close as they could get to the building, and he found out
for himself, he needed to know that, that he was really not
just at work.
Q. And has this bombing had an impact on all of your
grandchildren?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell the jury just briefly about what it's done to
your grandchildren?
A. Well, Rachael and Timothy and Stephen, Sue's children, have
been in counseling for quite some time. And Rachael was the
only granddaughter at the time, was very close to her
grandfather. And she had developed some heart problems. She
has a prolapsed mitral valve, and they thought she was getting
symptomatic from that, but they found out it was panic attacks.
Q. Let's -- go ahead. You can finish. I didn't mean to
interrupt you.
A. I forgot where I was at.
Q. Can we take a look at a picture before you move on to the
next grandchild?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1467. Is that a
Mathilda Westberry - Direct
photograph of you and your husband and Rachael?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we offer 1467.
MS. WELCH: No objections, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received, may be displayed.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. That's you on the left and Rachael in the middle and Bob on
the right?
A. Right. That was taken at our last Christmas at their
house.
Q. Now, tell us about your other grandchildren.
A. My oldest daughter had two children, two boys. The oldest
one was born out of wedlock and was adopted, and we knew the
parents who adopted him. And the summer before Bob died, we
were going to pick Jonathan up and take him to all the
children's homes so he wanted to meet his other family, and of
course that never happened. We met him for the first time at
Bob's services in Orlando.
Q. Now, has your husband's death had a special impact on
David?
A. Yes. Very much so.
Q. And you told us that he had a close relationship with his
grandfather; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us after he went home to Florida, did he have
Mathilda Westberry - Direct
any behavioral problems in school?
A. Yes. He became very aggressive. He would sit in the
classroom and put his hands over his ears and ask the kids to
be quiet. He was very, very afraid because he was afraid his
school was going to get blown up.
Q. Did you all explain to him --
A. Yes.
Q. -- his school wouldn't get blown up?
A. Yes, this school was not in a building where people worked
for the government and so he was safe at his school, and it
took a little while for him to feel safe when he went to
school.
Q. What happened after he started to act out in school?
A. They -- between the school's advice -- and Glen and Bev
decided to take him to counseling. And at counseling, they had
him reconstruct the building with blocks, but he would not ever
let anybody break it down. And even at home he would -- he
would play in his playing with building Legos and stuff. He
would -- he would build the building and talk about his papa
dying in the building.
Q. How old was he when he went to counseling?
A. About five years old.
Q. And did the therapy help him in dealing with his anger?
A. Yes. He -- in the process of the therapy, he found out
that he could communicate with his papa by sending up helium
Mathilda Westberry - Direct
balloons with massages.
Q. And has he continued to do that to this day?
A. Yes.
Q. Did there come a time when David expressed a desire to die?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He would ask Bev when they were traveling, like to the day
care and so forth -- he would ask Bev to run a red light so
they could crash and die and he could go be with papa.
Q. Has the counseling helped him to deal with his feelings
about the bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. Is he doing better in school?
A. Yes, much better.
Q. For just a moment, I'd like you to tell the jury about the
impact the loss of your husband has had on you.
A. Well, I've lost my best friend. It's very, very lonely
when you're used to -- and you get used to your children being
gone, and you have fun going places and doing things together.
And we always did something for our anniversary and other times
of the year. Saturday was always our day to kind of bum
around, go out to eat or whatever. And so it's been very, very
difficult, especially probably driving long distances or even
driving home from church on Sunday night and going home to an
empty house by yourself.
Mathilda Westberry - Direct
So last week I was at my daughter's house, in South
Carolina, and to drive home that five-and-a-half-, six-hour
drive was so lonely. And, you know, it just -- I saw -- I
passed another car with a husband -- apparently a husband and
wife in it, and she was kind of massaging his neck, apparently
had been driving a while. And I used to do that for him, you
know, when we'd be traveling long distances between Oklahoma
and Florida or vice versa. So it's -- it just changes your
total lifestyle, you know, it's so -- it's hard, very hard.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you very much, Miss Westberry.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MS. WELCH: We have no questions of Miss Westberry.
Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
MR. HARTZLER: Pursuant to stipulation, Miss Behenna
would like to present a video. It's a short video.
THE COURT: All right.
(Government's Exhibit 1444 was played.)
THE COURT: Is there an exhibit number for that?
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, it's Government's Exhibit
1444.
THE COURT: All right. 1444?
MS. BEHENNA: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. It's been displayed.
MR. HARTZLER: The Government calls David Florence.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. HARTZLER: Miss Behenna will question him.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(David Florence affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Okay. It's John David Florence II,
F-L-O-R-E-N-C-E.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Miss Behenna.
MS. BEHENNA: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Mr. Florence, where do you live?
A. Oklahoma City.
Q. Do you work in Oklahoma City as well?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Are you married, Mr. Florence?
A. Yes. Well, I was.
Q. You're widowed?
A. I'm a widow (sic).
David Florence - Direct
Q. Who was your wife?
A. Linda Florence.
Q. May I show you an exhibit right now, Government's Exhibit
1129A.
A. That's Linda.
Q. Is that your wife, Mr. Florence?
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, I would move just for the
admission of Government's Exhibit 1129A.
THE COURT: It's received.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. How long had you and Linda been married?
A. 17 years.
Q. And did Linda work outside the home?
A. Yes, she worked for the department of HUD.
Q. HUD. On the --
A. The 7th floor.
Q. On the 7th floor of the Murrah Building?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you and Linda have children?
A. Yes, we had one, a little boy.
Q. And his name?
A. His name is John David Florence III, but she wanted to call
him Tray.
Q. Is that what he's known by?
A. Yes, Tray.
David Florence - Direct
Q. Did you and Linda try for a long time before Tray came
along?
A. Yes, we had tried for 10 years to have a child and had no
success. And we had tried to adopt; and in December of '92, an
adoption agency informed us that we were accepted to their
agency. And then in December -- or February I got home from
work and I was sitting on the couch, and she came in and she
says, "You're not going to believe this."
And I said, "What's that?"
And she said, "I'm pregnant."
Q. And you all were pretty excited about that?
A. Yes, he's our miracle baby.
Q. What day was Tray born?
A. October 22, 1993.
Q. And I assume you were there when it happened?
A. Oh, yes. In the delivery room. That was one of the best
days of my life.
Q. Did Linda want to continue working after Tray was born?
A. Yes. She enjoyed her job at HUD. She felt like she was
doing something to help people, and it was a job where she felt
like she had a chance to advance and do something with her
career.
Q. What did she do for HUD?
A. She was a secretary with the multi-family division.
Q. Let me direct your attention to April 19, 1995.
David Florence - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Were you at work that morning?
A. Yes, I was. I had gone in early like usual. We were
having trouble with the computer at work, and I had called
downtown and got a hold of Tommy there, and she hung up the
phone and said something happened. And I called back and got
ahold of another one of my employees, Viola, and she said,
There's been some kind of explosion, and she didn't know where.
She thought maybe the jail because of all the trouble they had
there at the city jail.
And then I walked to the front of the building because
something was wrong. And they had the television on up there.
And at first I didn't recognize it, and then --
Q. You didn't recognize it as the Murrah Building?
A. Right. And then it kind of hit me what it was. And I
tried calling and no answer. And I had called my other
employee to see if she had heard anything, and then Loren,
another supervisor, put me in the car. And . . . we got as
close as possible to the building, and I got out and I made my
way up to the building and . . . .
Q. You saw the sight and you realized --
A. I came to the front of the building, and I knew Linda
worked in the front of the building, and it was gone.
Q. And then --
A. From there I started working my way around the building,
David Florence - Direct
trying to find someone or something. I ran into another
employee, Fred Jones, and his wife worked at HUD, too, Steve.
And we kept looking. And they had pushed us back because of
bomb threats. And then we ended up at St. Anthony's Hospital.
Q. And you spent some time at St. Anthony's Hospital; right?
A. Spent most of the rest of the day there; until they closed
it down, they put the names on the walls of people.
Q. Looking for the injured and the survivors that were
committed to the hospital?
A. Right. Right.
Q. And at some point, you leave St. Anthony's Hospital and you
go to the First Christian Church -- is that right -- where
they're telling all the family members to go?
A. Yeah. With Trent. Steve was there. And I remember what
he said because I asked him if he was going up there. And he
said no, because he wasn't going to go up there because that's
where the dead would be.
Q. Well, you knew the First Christian Church was a place where
they were taking information on missing people; right?
A. Uh-huh. And went up there and waited a while. Some people
from work and friends came.
Q. And you provided information there about --
A. About Linda, what she looked like.
Q. Where she worked?
A. And where she worked and that information.
David Florence - Direct
Q. And that evening of the 19th, you go home?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell the jury about a phone call that you received
at about midnight that night?
A. Well, it was -- it was our next-door -- my mom's next-door
neighbor -- I'd been living there since that happened -- went,
she had volunteered for the Red Cross, and she had seen a list
with Linda's name on it.
Q. A list of injured?
A. Injured.
Q. At a local hospital?
A. Uh-huh. At St. Anthony's. And so we got in the car. I
threw all my clothes, and we went down there.
Q. To St. Anthony's?
A. To St. Anthony and went up to the reception desk and asked
to see Linda or where she was at.
Q. And they told you that it was wrong, that it was a mistake;
right?
A. She wasn't there.
Q. All right. You wait for Linda, for word from her for
several days, do you not?
A. It was the following Wednesday, about 4:00 in the
afternoon.
Q. During the meantime, you go get a prescription filled at a
High Drug; do you remember that?
David Florence - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. And while you're at High Drug, you decide to check to see
if Linda has dropped off a roll of film?
A. Right. We had finished a roll of film Easter, and I'd
given it to her and she had put it in her purse. And for some
reason, I just thought, well, maybe it would be there. And it
was. She had put it in the afternoon of the 18th on the way
home from work.
Q. And you picked up that roll of film?
A. Yes.
Q. During that week?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And on the roll of film -- did you look at the pictures?
A. Yes.
Q. And in those pictures were family pictures as well as some
pictures that she had taken of the day-care children in the
Murrah Building; right?
A. Yes, she was a member of the federal women's group and they
had an Easter party for the children, and she had taken
pictures of it as they were going out for an Easter egg hunt.
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1485.
Can you identify that?
A. That's one of the pictures with the kids in the carts to go
out.
Q. And that's one of the pictures that you picked up during
David Florence - Direct
the week following the bombing?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. At the High Drug?
A. Yes.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, I'd move to the admission of
Government's Exhibit 1485.
THE COURT: All right. It's received, may be
published.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. You don't know any of these children, do you, Mr. Florence?
A. Just what I've seen on the news since then.
Q. Mr. Florence, I don't think I asked you before. Let me ask
you now. How old was Tray when Linda was killed?
A. He would have been 18 months old the 22d of April.
MS. BEHENNA: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
Turn the picture off.
Do you have any cross-examination?
MR. BURR: No.
THE COURT: You may step down, Mr. Florence. You're
excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.
MR. HARTZLER: The Government calls Teresa Brown.
Miss Behenna will question her.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand.
(Teresa Brown affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Teresa Brown, B-R-O-W-N.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
MS. BEHENNA: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Miss Brown, where do you live?
A. Oklahoma City.
Q. Are you employed?
A. Yes.
Q. Where do you work?
A. Deaconess Hospital.
Q. How long have you worked there?
A. Six months.
Q. Prior to that, did you work for a day-care center?
A. Yes.
Q. What day-care center did you work for?
A. America's Kids.
Q. Was that the day-care center located at the federal
building?
Teresa Brown - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you work for America's Kids?
A. A year.
Q. Did you know most of the children and the other teachers in
that day-care center?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell the jury approximately what time the day-care
center opened?
A. 7:30.
Q. And it closed when?
A. 5:30.
Q. And you were a teacher at the day-care center?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there a particular age group of children that you took
care of?
A. All age groups.
Q. All of them? Just wherever they needed you that day?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember how many children were in the day-care
center in April -- enrolled in the day-care center is what I
mean -- in April of 1995?
A. 30.
Q. And what age group of children are we talking about?
A. Six weeks to five years.
Q. So did you have an infant room?
Teresa Brown - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. And a pretoddler room?
A. Yes.
Q. All the way up through kindergarten?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall the Friday before the bombing on April 19,
1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there a party for the children?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was that party held?
A. In HUD.
Q. Was that on the 7th floor of the Murrah Building?
A. Yes.
Q. And were the children invited up there to go to this party?
A. Yes.
Q. And were pictures taken of the children while they were up
on the 7th floor of the HUD?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1485 which has
previously been introduced.
That should be on the computer screen down in front of
you. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you seen this photograph before?
Teresa Brown - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Can you identify the children in this photograph?
A. Yes.
Q. I'm going to try and help you out a little bit here,
because I think it might be easier for you. I'm just going to
point, and if you'd just identify the child by name.
A. Okay. Erin Langer.
Q. And how old was Erin Langer?
A. She was one.
Q. Was she injured in the bombing?
A. No.
Q. Was she there that day?
A. No.
Q. What about this child?
A. Joseph Webber.
Q. Was he injured in the bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. And that child?
A. Elijah Coverdale.
Q. Was Elijah killed that day?
A. Yes.
Q. Next child -- I didn't get it very . . .
A. Tevin Garrett.
Q. And Tevin was killed that day?
A. Yes.
Teresa Brown - Direct
Q. The children behind Tevin, the child behind Tevin?
A. Blake Kennedy.
Q. And Blake was also killed that day?
A. Yes.
Sheridan McKisick.
Q. And Sheridan wasn't there at the day-care center on
April 19?
A. No.
Q. Let's go to the back part of the buggy. Who is that?
A. That's Anthony Cooper.
Q. And Anthony also was killed on April 19?
A. Yes.
Q. And next to Anthony?
A. That's Rebecca Denny.
Q. And Rebecca was injured in the bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me move to that second row. Who is that child?
A. Jaci Coyne.
Q. And was Jaci killed on April 19?
A. Yes.
Q. And next to Jaci would have been who?
A. Colton Smith.
Q. And Colton was also killed that morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Who is that child?
Teresa Brown - Direct
A. Zackary Chavez.
Q. And Zackary was killed on the morning of the 19th?
A. Yes.
Q. Next to Zackary was who?
A. Chance Henderson.
Q. Was Chance there on April 19?
A. No.
Q. Let's go to the front now. Who is this child?
A. Aaron Coverdale.
Q. Aaron was killed on the 19th?
A. Yes.
Q. And next to Aaron?
A. Chase Smith.
Q. Was Chase in the day-care center on April 19?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he injured?
A. He was killed.
Q. That child?
A. Kwame McNeeley.
Q. Was Kwame in the day-care center on the 19th?
A. No.
Q. It gets a little more difficult. I'll try and point. Who
is that child?
A. Angela Nielson.
Q. Was Angela there on the 19th?
Teresa Brown - Direct
A. No.
Q. And next to Angela?
A. Christopher Nguyen.
Q. Was Christopher in the day-care center on the 19th?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he injured?
A. Yes.
Q. And behind Christopher?
A. Brendon Denny.
Q. Was Brendon injured --
A. Yes.
Q. -- on the 19th?
A. Yes.
Q. And next to Brandon?
A. Daxton Scott.
Q. Was Daxton there?
A. No.
Q. And the child right behind Daxton?
A. Dominique London.
Q. Was Dominique killed on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. And I believe behind Brandon is another child who you can't
see very well. Do you know who that was?
A. It was Nekia McCloud.
Q. Was Nekia injured as a result of the bombing?
Teresa Brown - Direct
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Were you at work at the day-care center, Ms. Brown, on
April 19, 1995?
A. No.
Q. Why weren't you there?
A. I called in sick.
Q. I forgot to go through the rest of this picture.
MS. BEHENNA: If I could have it up again, your Honor?
THE COURT: All right.
MS. BEHENNA: I apologize.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. I left out the adults standing in the back of the picture.
Can you tell me who --
A. Dana Cooper.
Q. She was a worker at the day-care center?
A. Yes.
Q. Next to Dana?
A. Melva Noakes.
Q. Was she at the day-care center on the 19th?
A. No.
Q. Who is that woman?
A. Wanda Howell.
Q. Was she killed in the building?
A. Yes.
Q. On April 19?
Teresa Brown - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Next to Wanda is who?
A. Brenda Daniels.
Q. Brenda killed --
A. Yes.
Q. -- on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, that's all I have.
THE COURT: Did you say that concluded the
questioning?
MS. BEHENNA: Yes, your Honor.
MR. TRITICO: We have no questions.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. You're now
excused as a witness.
MR. HARTZLER: The Government call Sharon Medearis.
Miss Wilkinson will question her.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Sharon Medearis affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Sharon Annette Medearis,
M-E-D-E-A-R-I-S.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good afternoon, Miss Medearis.
A. Hi.
Q. Can you tell us where you grew up?
A. Grew up in Norman, Oklahoma.
Q. Where do you live right now?
A. In Norman, Oklahoma.
Q. And were you married?
A. I'm not married now. My husband was killed in the bombing.
Q. And what's your husband's name?
A. Claude Arthur Medearis.
Q. What was his job at the time of the bombing?
A. He was a senior special agent for Customs.
Q. And when did you meet Claude; when was the first time you
met?
A. I met Claude when I was 12.
Q. And how old were you when you married him?
A. 17.
Q. Did you have any children?
A. We had one together, Kathryn.
Q. And how old is Kathryn right now?
A. She's 25.
Q. How long had Claude been with the Customs Service?
Sharon Medearis - Direct
A. He joined Customs in '87.
Q. Can you tell us just a little bit about what he did before
that.
A. He was with the Department of Corrections in Oklahoma,
probation and parole board.
Q. And when he was a Customs agent, what type of assignments
did he have?
A. Mostly drugs. He worked on the border with drug
eradication.
Q. Did you worry about him when he was doing that type of
work?
A. Sometimes.
Q. You told us you have one daughter named Kathryn. Does she
have any children?
A. She has three daughters.
Q. How old are they?
A. Andy is six, Taylor is four, and Elisa 17 months.
Q. Now, when were you all assigned down at the Texas border?
A. We were in Texas from 1987 to 1991.
Q. And was there some reason that you left Texas in 1991?
A. We got an emergency transfer to come home to Norman when
Kathryn's husband was killed in Desert Storm.
Q. And on what day of Desert Storm was Kathryn's husband
killed?
A. The last day.
Sharon Medearis - Direct
Q. And at the time of his death, who was responsible for
informing her that he was --
A. I was.
Q. -- had passed away?
And did she have any special condition at the time?
A. She was six and a half months pregnant.
Q. And because of that, did your husband take on a special
role with her?
A. He was -- she -- she asked him to be her coach when Andy
was born.
Q. And after Andy was born, what type of relationship did Andy
have with your husband?
A. Claude was her surrogate father. He was the only father
she ever knew.
Q. Now, let's turn to April 19, 1995. Do you recall saying
good-bye to your husband that morning?
A. I normally got up and had coffee with him, gave him a kiss,
asked him what he was going to do, and kissed him good-bye.
Q. Did you know whether he was going to his office that day?
A. He told me he needed to go to El Reno that day, and that's
where I thought he was going.
Q. When you heard about the bombing, what did you think?
A. I was hoping he was on the way to El Reno. I called his
mobile and didn't get an answer, and I knew immediately he was
in the building.
Sharon Medearis - Direct
Q. Did you know the location of his office?
A. It was on the glass side of the building.
Q. And did you talk to your daughter that day?
A. She immediately tried calling the house when the bomb went
off and couldn't get ahold of me and sent her boyfriend over to
tell me that something had happened in Oklahoma City, because
she thought I had already left to go up there. And then she
immediately got the babies dressed and came over.
Q. Did you get any news about your husband on April 19?
A. Just that he was still in the building.
Q. Did you receive any contact from representatives of the
Customs Service?
A. Daily. Daily. Two and three times a day. The
commissioner of Customs flew in from Washington, D.C., to be
with the Customs families.
Q. Did you have visitors at your house during that time?
A. Constantly.
Q. And how long did you have to wait before you found out
about your husband?
A. Nine days.
Q. How did you find out?
A. Customs called me.
Q. And why did they call instead of visiting with you?
A. Because I had waited long enough and asked them to call me
from Oklahoma City as soon as he was found.
Sharon Medearis - Direct
Q. Did you receive the phone call?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And were you responsible for telling your family members
about Claude's death?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall what you thought when you realized you were
going to have to tell your daughter?
A. I didn't know how I was going to tell her that she'd lost
another man in her life.
Q. And did she have another special condition at that time?
A. She was four and a half months pregnant.
Q. What did you say to her?
A. I just told her he wasn't coming home.
Q. And since you've lost your husband and she's lost her
father, have you developed a certain special relationship?
A. We're extremely close. I have the biggest fear now that
with him gone, there would be nobody to take care of her if
something happens to me.
Q. And have you suffered some loss emotionally and physically
because of Claude's death?
A. Emotionally I'm home alone every day. I have nobody at my
house since Kathryn is grown. Physically I've lost down to in
the 80 pounds range. I find myself real tired. It's extremely
hard.
Q. Now, you told us that Claude was a special agent with the
Sharon Medearis - Direct
Customs Service. And how do you think he defined himself or
how would you define him?
A. He was very gentle, very caring. He never belittled
anyone. Even the people he arrested, he called them sir. He
treated them with the respect that he would want them to
respect him. I never heard a unkind word said against him. He
was a practical joker. He loved to make people smile.
Q. And how important was his relationship with his daughter
and his granddaughter?
A. It was very important. That was the only man in her life
after her husband was killed. With Andy that was -- that was
the only man she knew when she was little.
Q. Have you and your daughter been able to provide some
comfort to each other because of the losses that you have
suffered?
A. She says that God took her husband first so that she would
be able to help me through this, and we spend as much time
together as we can. My granddaughter's afraid of losing
everyone that she loves. She's only six years old. She
shouldn't have to know that fear.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, very much, Miss Medearis.
MS. RAMSEY: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. You're
excused.
Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, we call Susan Walton.
She's going to need some assistance. I think she could hold
the microphone but would not be able to enter the witness
stand.
THE COURT: All right. Perhaps we could be right in
front of the witness stand.
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: We'll get the microphone.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Susan Walton affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you state your full name
for the record and spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Susan Kay Walton, W-A-L-T-O-N.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Hartzler.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Miss Walton, I can't even see you there. Let's get
readjusted there, okay?
THE COURT: Move the video out of the way.
MR. HARTZLER: Okay.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. There we go. How are you?
A. Just fine.
Susan Walton - Direct
Q. Good. Mrs. Walton, would you tell us where you live now.
A. In Oklahoma City.
Q. And who do you live with?
A. My husband, Richard.
Q. Do you have any children?
A. Yes, we do. He has two boys, and I have two girls.
Q. And how old? Are they grown?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. No longer living with the two of you?
A. No, sir.
Q. How long have you lived in the Oklahoma City area?
A. All my life.
Q. So you were born and raised in that area?
A. Born and raised, yes.
Q. How far did you go in school?
A. I completed high school and some college.
Q. How old are you now?
A. 46.
Q. And did you ever work for the federal government?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What agency did you work for?
A. I worked for the FDIC, division of liquidation.
Q. That's Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation?
A. Right.
Q. What years did you work for FDIC?
Susan Walton - Direct
A. From about 1985 until '93.
Q. And were your offices then in the Murrah Building?
A. No. They were not.
Q. But you were a member of the Federal Employees Credit
Union?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And at that time were the offices for that credit union in
the Murrah Building?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. Now, after you left the federal government employ --
employment, did you continue to be a member of that credit
union?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. So the credit union membership consisted of current federal
employees and former federal employees?
A. As long as you kept an account open, yes, sir.
Q. There was no prohibition upon your membership after you
left federal employment?
A. No, and in fact, I'm still a member today.
Q. Did you occasionally visit the credit union when you were a
federal employee?
A. Not too often because my checks went directly to the bank,
so unless I had other business, I just wrote my checks and that
was it.
Q. And after you left the federal employment, did you have
Susan Walton - Direct
occasion to visit the credit union?
A. Yes, more frequently because I had to take my payroll
checks to the bank, myself.
Q. And you'd take them down to the 3d floor of the Murrah
Building?
A. Right.
Q. Were you employed on April 19, 1995?
A. I was a full-time student and employed part-time by my
husband, who is self-employed.
Q. What school were you attending full-time?
A. Oklahoma State University, Oklahoma City branch.
Q. And that's obviously there in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was your course of study?
A. I was studying to be an interpreter for the deaf.
Q. And how far along had you gotten in that course of study?
A. I had gotten about halfway through the program. I entered
at an unusual time, well in the middle of the program, so I was
not quite with the program; but I still lacked about three
semesters.
Q. So how long had you gone and how much did you have to go
before you completed and became certified or whatever is
required in that area?
A. I had gone for probably about five semesters and still had
three to go, I think.
Susan Walton - Direct
Q. And upon completion of that course of study, what
certification or degree would you receive?
A. I would have been -- had to test, but I would have been
certified to be an interpreter for the deaf.
Q. And would you have received a degree?
A. Yes, I would have had an associate's degree.
Q. Was your pursuit of an associate's degree cut short by the
bombing?
A. Yes, it was. I didn't get to complete my spring semester
and have not been able to go back to date, but I still plan on
doing so.
Q. Okay. Well, tell us what you were doing on April 19, 1995.
A. Well, I had gotten up and taken my husband to work because
his car had broken down. And I was setting in his parking lot
trying to study for a test I had later that morning, and he --
I was getting antsy, because I thought, well, I don't want to
be late for class; and so I thought, well, I'll just go ahead
and run my errand to the credit union and go on to school and
go to the library where it would be peaceful and quiet and
where I could study before I went into class.
And I can remember heading to the credit union and
thinking, man, I'm getting there real quick this morning, where
is everybody? And that's basically the last I remember of that
day.
Q. So -- well, do you know where your body was after the
Susan Walton - Direct
bombing?
A. I have been told by rescuers that I was pulled out of the
pit area.
Q. But you in effect have a short-term amnesia of some sort so
you don't recall parking or where you parked or anything of
that sort?
A. Right. Right.
Q. Or actually going up to -- was your check deposited?
A. No, it was not.
Q. But you understand that you had made it to the credit union
that morning?
A. Right. My billfold was in the credit union. It was
retrieved by the coroner's office and given back to us. My
purse was in the ambulance, so I had no identification on me
when I got to the hospital.
Q. And when -- did you gain consciousness in the hospital that
day?
A. Just a very short time that I'm aware of. All I can
remember is looking up at the ceiling and every now and then a
face would come into my range of vision and say, I'm sorry,
honey, I don't understand what you're trying to tell me. And I
was unable to speak because of the injuries to my face; so I
was signing my name to them, trying to communicate who I was.
Q. Other than injuries to your face, what was your condition
when you gained consciousness in the hospital?
Susan Walton - Direct
A. When I gained consciousness. Well, I had a basal skull
fracture, nerve damage behind both eyes. I had a broken nose,
six fractures in my face. I lost six teeth. I had a ruptured
spleen, and both legs were badly damaged from the knees down.
Q. And how long did you stay in the hospital after -- on your
first visit after April 19?
A. I was in the hospital for five weeks and rehab for three.
Q. How many operations have you had in total since that time?
A. Well, we've kind of lost track, but we anticipate around
20.
Q. What's your prognosis?
A. Well, I think I'll probably be 85 to 90 percent whole
again.
Q. Okay. I'm sure there are some things that you enjoyed
doing before you suffered your injuries and can't do now. Why
don't you tell us what some of those things are.
A. Well, I am beginning to get back into gardening a little
bit. Not quite the same. I have to transfer out of my chair
onto a little stool of a thing that I have with wheels that I
can kind of push myself around in the garden and dig and plant
and things like that.
There are many things that most of us take for granted
that I'm not able to do anymore like go to the grocery store by
myself. Everywhere I go, I have to be accompanied by someone,
my husband or a full-time nurse aide that takes care of me
Susan Walton - Direct
during the day.
Even getting a drink of water is a real struggle
sometimes. I have begun to cook a little bit now, but . . .
That's about it.
Q. I'm going to ask you just about the gardening. It appears
that you're probably not able to kneel down; isn't that
correct?
A. Right. I don't think I'll ever be able to kneel again, so
it's all done from sitting position.
Q. Okay. How about housework? You pretty disappointed you
haven't been able to do some housework?
A. Not a bit.
Q. It's obvious you've suffered from injuries to your mouth,
and you said you lost six teeth.
A. Correct.
Q. Has that affected your ability to eat?
A. Definitely. And to -- the healing process, my bite was
off, so my teeth were in like this on my lower. So I haven't
been able to eat anything that you can't mash with a fork. And
I eat a lot of mashed potatoes and gravy and green beans and
that kind of thing that you can -- we have a food chopper now
that we process our -- the meat with, and so I'm getting a
little protein that way; but I dropped about 45 pounds after
the bombing.
Q. Not on purpose?
Susan Walton - Direct
A. No.
Q. I only have a few more questions, but before you leave, I
wonder if you could explain to the Court and the ladies and
gentlemen of the jury this contraption on your leg. And I must
tell you that it looks as though it would be painful, but I
understand it is not.
A. Not now. At first, right after the surgery and it was very
swollen, it was very painful.
MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, I see that the jurors would
like to stand.
THE COURT: Yes, if you would like to stand to look at
this.
THE WITNESS: It's called an Ilizarov. It's a Russian
device that was developed to help people injured in the war to
repair their damage. I had a large wound in my left foot, and
my talus bone fell out in three pieces, so they chose not to
try to repair that. So by wearing this device, it has -- on
this lower ring, it has eight bolts on there that had to be
turned every six hours daily, night and day, until the bone was
pulled -- they made a cut in the bone and pulled it like
4 inches down where it has now fused and it became my ankle,
basically.
I have lost the ability in my foot to ever walk like
this, so I anticipate I'll kind of walk around marching, is
kind of the way I envision it. But at least the legs are the
Susan Walton - Direct
same length, and I hope within about a year to be walking with
a cane.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. It looks as though the contraption pokes through your skin
and might be painful. That's not the case?
A. Only when it -- it hangs down quite a bit and I'm up on it
and it swells, it's a little uncomfortable. But I only take
like two aspirins a day, not only for pain, but to keep the
blood a little thin so that I don't get blood clots.
Q. And you're no longer doing the adjustments?
A. No. It has been corrected.
Q. Okay. Did you say how much longer you expect to have this
on your leg?
A. Well, I was hoping it would come off last month, but I go
back to the doctor June the 10th; and my prayer is that it will
come off sometime in June.
Q. And do you have any plans to return and complete your
schooling?
A. Yes, I do. I plan on going back to school, I'm hoping this
fall. If this thing comes off, I will be able to drive myself
again, so I can go back to school. And I'm also working on
probably breaking the Guinness Book of World Records of
colleges attended to obtain one degree.
Q. So that's something you really --
A. That's my goal in life.
Susan Walton - Direct
Q. Okay. Good. Let me conclude by simply asking you what you
regard as the greatest loss that you suffered as a result of
your injuries from the bombing.
A. Well, basically my independence and my ability to carry
around my grandbabies that have been born in the last couple of
years. I can hold them in my lap; but, you know, that doesn't
always please them, you know. They like to be bounced and
walked, and I truly miss that. And, you know, they have to be
a little careful of grandma, you know. Everybody's going, no,
no, watch grandma, you know; so it's kind of like I don't get
to play with them the way I wish I could.
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you, Mrs. Walton.
Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any cross?
MR. JONES: No questions.
THE COURT: Thank you. You're now excused.
THE WITNESS: Whoops.
MR. HARTZLER: We'll call Eric Thompson, your Honor.
Miss Behenna will question him.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Eric Thompson affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Eric Howard Thompson. T-H-O-M-P-S-O-N.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Sergeant Thompson, where do you live?
A. Oklahoma City.
Q. Are you employed?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. How are you employed?
A. With the Oklahoma City Police Department.
Q. How long have you been with the Oklahoma City Police
Department?
A. Almost nine years.
Q. Are you assigned to a specific squad or unit?
A. Yes. I'm on the Bicycle Patrol Unit.
Q. Were you on the Bicycle Patrol Unit in April of 1995?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Let me direct your attention to April 19, 1995. Were you
at the police station downtown Oklahoma City that morning?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Did you hear the explosion?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do?
A. Ran to the roof, the top floor of the police station,
looked out to the northeast, and saw a column of smoke coming
Eric Thompson - Direct
up from the federal building.
Q. And you immediately headed toward the building?
A. Yes, ran straight down. My car was parked in front of the
police station. I drove directly to the southwest corner of
the federal building.
THE COURT: Excuse me. A little bit hard to hear you.
THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm sorry.
THE COURT: Raise your voice just a little.
MS. BEHENNA: Thank you.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Let me further direct your attention to the 3d floor window
of the Murrah Building on the south side. Do you recall seeing
a man in that window?
A. Yes, I do. Sergeant Ed Moore, who is a beat officer with
our department, was in the window aiding a man who appeared to
be trapped. His legs appeared to be trapped, and he was right
there facing the south out of the window frame.
Q. And you could see him from the plaza level where you were?
A. Yes, I could.
Q. Did you climb over a retaining wall to that 3d floor
window?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do?
A. I attempted to aid Sergeant Moore in freeing the man from
the -- from the debris. The man was conscious, he was
Eric Thompson - Direct
coherent; but he was very dazed. He had a glassy look in his
eyes. Ed was talking to him. He was telling him to hang on;
that we would get him out.
Q. Was the man responding to Sergeant Moore?
A. Not verbally, no. He would grunt and moan.
Q. But he was alive?
A. He was alive. Yes, he was.
Q. Could you see what injuries the man had?
A. Yes. He had several small cuts from, I guess, flying
debris. His shirt was torn and tattered, and attempts were
made when he was leaning back to pull him from the debris. His
legs were completely pinned. We could not lift him or get him
pulled out.
Q. Pinned with rubble?
A. Yes, pinned with rubble.
Q. Was he actually pinned against that south wall on the 3d
floor?
A. Yes. The rubble was pinning him up against the south face
of the building and the window frame. When he was leaned
forward, to try to free him from another vantage point, I
noticed that the gentleman had received a severe head wound to
the back of his head. I noticed this due to the amount of
blood and part of his scalp was loose on the crown of his head.
Q. Were you and Sergeant Moore able to free this man from the
rubble?
Eric Thompson - Direct
A. No, we were not.
Q. Can you tell the jury what happened after a few minutes of
attempting to work with him and get his legs untrapped?
A. We worked with him for a while, probably five minutes, and
were unable to free him. During this time . . . he was still
conscious. He would still moan or grunt, he would still try to
hold himself up to an extent. And finally, he just -- he
exhaled and he went limp on us. And I believe at that moment
he expired. He passed away.
Q. Did Sergeant Moore feel for a pulse?
A. Yes, I believe.
Q. Was he able to find one?
A. No, he was not.
Q. After the man died there on that 3d floor window, did you
attempt to lay him back?
A. Yes.
Q. On the rubble behind him?
A. We did lay him back on the rubble. And then we went on.
Q. And you went on to other places inside the building?
A. To help other people, yes.
Q. Let me just show you quickly Government's Exhibit 1016.
Can you identify that?
A. Yes. That is the spot where -- where I was on that slanted
shelf. And Ed was up inside the building on top of the rubble
behind him trying to free him.
Eric Thompson - Direct
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission
of Government's Exhibit 1016.
THE COURT: It's received. It may be shown.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. And just briefly for the jury, can you describe what it is
they're seeing here. This is the ledge that you were on?
A. Yes, this is the ledge that I climbed up onto. Sergeant
Moore was on the window frame, behind the gentleman, with his
arms under the gentleman's arms, trying to pull him up and out
from the debris. And it was just heavy. There was too much.
We had no tools, and we were unable to free him from the
debris.
Q. And he wasn't covered with a tarp, as he is in this
picture?
A. Not at this time. That was done later.
Q. And this was the position that you would have laid the man
back on after he expired?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know who that person was in this window on the 3d
floor?
A. No, I don't.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, that's all I have.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MS. RAMSEY: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. You're
Eric Thompson - Direct
excused.
MR. HARTZLER: Government calls Dora Reyes.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. HARTZLER: Mr. Mendeloff will question her.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Dora Reyes affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My name is Dora Reyes. R-E-Y-E-S.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Miss Reyes, where do you live?
A. Edmond, Oklahoma.
Q. Do you have any children?
A. Two children.
Q. Tell us their names and their ages.
A. My daughter's name is Dahlia Northrup, and she will be 36
September 25; and my son is Michael Reyes, and he will be 33
December 16.
Q. On April 19, 1995, did you lose your husband?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What was his name?
Dora Reyes - Direct
A. Tony Reyes.
Q. Let me show you Government Exhibit 1462; and this will just
be to you, please.
What are we looking at?
A. A picture of my husband, my son, my daughter, and myself.
MR. MENDELOFF: We move the admission of 1462, your
Honor.
THE COURT: It's received.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Miss Reyes, just quickly tell us who -- who we're looking
at in this picture. That's yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Your son?
A. Yes.
Q. Michael?
A. Yes.
Q. And your daughter?
A. Dahlia.
Q. And your husband?
A. Tony.
Q. How did your husband die on April 19?
A. He died as a result of injuries sustained in the bombing of
the Alfred Murrah Building.
Q. Where did he work?
A. He worked for the Department of Housing and Urban
Dora Reyes - Direct
Development on the 8th floor.
Q. What was his job at HUD on the 8th floor back in April?
A. He was a fair housing and equal opportunity specialist.
Q. Now, tell us a little bit about his background. How large
a family did he come from?
A. Tony was the seventh of nine children.
Q. And what town was he from?
A. San Diego, Texas.
Q. San Diego, Texas?
Is that the same town you're from?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you first meet Tony?
A. When I was about 12 years old.
Q. How old was he?
A. 14.
Q. Have you ever had another man in your life other than Tony
Reyes?
A. No.
Q. When were you married?
A. October the 8th, 1960, when I was 18 and he was 20.
Q. So you were married about 34 1/2 years when the bombing
occurred; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us a little bit about your husband's
employment background.
Dora Reyes - Direct
A. He graduated from high school in 1958 and joined the Navy
in 1959.
Q. How long did he stay in the Navy?
A. He retired in 1983.
Q. So he was a career Navy man for those years?
A. Yes.
Q. What were -- were his assignments at sea as well as shore?
A. He served on various ships and on submarines and shore
duty.
Q. Tell us about the only time in your 34 1/2 years of
marriage that your husband did not come home and did not call
you to tell you where he was.
A. When we were stationed in Long Beach, California, during
the Cuban missile crisis, and he left that morning and didn't
come home that evening because he was deployed on a ship.
Q. To the area around Cuba?
A. To the area, uh-huh.
Q. While Mr. Reyes was in the Navy, did you have two children,
have your two children?
A. Yes. Our daughter was born in Long Beach, California, and
our son was born in Charleston, South Carolina.
Q. And at some point, as you were shipped around the world in
various ports, were you assigned to shore duty in Oklahoma
City?
A. Yes. My husband was transferred to the Navy recruiting
Dora Reyes - Direct
office in the Alfred Murrah Building in May of 1977.
Q. How long did you and your family remain there?
A. He completed his shore duty in 1981, and then he had to go
back to sea. So he was transferred to Norfolk, Virginia, where
he was attached to a carrier. And I really don't remember the
name at the moment. He retired in 1983. The children and I
stayed in Edmond. Michael was in high school and Dahlia had
started college.
Q. So you decided not to move the kids again and you stayed in
Oklahoma City?
A. Right.
Q. While Tony finished his stint in the Navy?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. When he finished his stint in the Navy, did he continue
Government service?
A. Yes. He started to work for SBA, I think, in 1984, and
then transferred to HUD. I don't remember when -- a couple
years later.
Q. Now, in April of 1995, you said Tony was in HUD. Was there
another member of the family that was also employed by HUD at
that time?
A. Yes, Michael. Michael had worked a couple of summers at
HUD; and then when he graduated from college, he took a job
with HUD.
Q. Your son, Michael?
Dora Reyes - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. And on April 14, 1995, was Michael working for HUD in the
Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building as well?
A. On April 19, he was working at HUD and he was on the 7th
floor.
Q. On the 7th floor of that same building? That's one floor
away from Tony?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Now, was Tony's service to his community limited to service
in the Government?
A. No. Once Tony retired from the Navy and the children had
finished college and he was already working in civil service,
he decided, as so many of us do, that it's time to start
putting something back into the community; so he started
various volunteer-type jobs, you could say. We had done some
work at our church in Guthrie with the youth group. He --
because we're Hispanic, I think he felt a kinship and a need to
help people in the Hispanic community.
So the first thing I remember him doing was through
Catholic charities. He started trying to help, I think, legal
immigrants to learn English; and there's a place called the
Lazy E a little north of Edmond where he was -- he would go --
that helped some of these people learn English.
Q. Tell us the other organizations that he ultimately
volunteered in, just a sentence about what each of them does.
Dora Reyes - Direct
A. He belonged to OHPA, which was Oklahoma Hispanic
Professional Association. And the main purpose of that
organization is to provide scholarships to Hispanics attending
colleges in Oklahoma.
He belonged to something -- I believe it's called the
Tinker Base Hispanic Task Force Group, which gets involved with
things of Hispanic nature in community. And through that, he
started becoming involved with the Latino Community Development
Agency.
Q. What is the Latino Community Development Agency?
A. It's a nonprofit organization that helps people in the
Hispanic community in various ways. One of the things they
have is a clinic to help mothers bring babies, you know, for
whatever needs they have. And one of the other things that --
one of the things that they were doing when Tony died was
converting an old school called Riverside into a community
center. And Tony would help on Saturdays and other days where
they were trying to clean brush from the yard, pick up trash,
scrape walls, paint.
Q. I take it his involvement in these organizations was not
passive, in name only; he gave his time substantially to these
various organizations?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. What about the Federal Employees Credit Union?
A. He was on the board of directors of the Federal Employees
Dora Reyes - Direct
Credit Union. He had actually been on the credit committee
there for quite a while, because he had started that when he
was still in the Navy, in the federal building.
Q. Now, is he the only member of your family that had a
passion for volunteer work?
A. No. I had gotten involved in my community, too, in Edmond.
I belong to AMBUC. It's American Business Club. I belong to
the Edmond Arts and Humanities Council.
Q. Did your husband assist you in your various volunteer work?
A. He was my right arm in my volunteer work. Because whatever
I did with AMBUC -- we put on a charity ball each year, and I
think that really I got the credit; but he did the work. And
the Edmond Arts and Humanities Council puts on a jazz festival
every year and a children's festival, and he was my right arm
in that volunteer work, too.
Q. Now, the last evening of Tony's life, April 18, 1995, I
believe you came home late. When you arrived home from a
meeting of your own, where did you find your husband?
A. He was at the kitchen table, and he was reviewing
scholarship applications for the OHPA function that was going
to happen, I believe about April 25, where they would present
scholarships to these students.
Q. Can you just take a minute and characterize for us what
Tony's personality was like?
A. Well, I think Tony was the balance in my life, because he
Dora Reyes - Direct
was the, the jovial . . . the jovial hearty person, the person
with the positive attitude all the time, the person who anybody
who knew him would tell me what a pleasant person Tony was,
what a joy he was to work with, whether it was in his work life
or his volunteer life. He was the one who always, I believe,
was the one who tried to get his brothers and sisters
together -- they were all in different states -- to have
reunions every once in a while. He'd talk to them every week.
He was the balance in my life.
Q. Now, on April 19, 1995, did you see your husband before he
went to work that morning?
A. No.
Q. Tell us what happened.
A. Well, I'm a CPA; and April 17 that year was our last day to
file extensions and file returns. And normally I close the
office on April -- on the day after, so that was April 18. And
usually I use that day to kind of just mess around; and that's
what I did, except for that meeting I had that night.
And usually, I would hear him when he got up to go to
work in the morning; but he left very early. I don't remember
hearing him get up that morning.
Q. Did you go to work that day?
A. Uh-huh. I got to work at 8:30.
Q. Tell us what happened.
A. Well, whenever the bomb went off -- everybody says it was
Dora Reyes - Direct
9:02 -- I heard an explosion; and it sounded like -- I thought
it was like a gas explosion. But I just sat at my desk and
kept working. And a few minutes later -- I couldn't tell you
when -- Emily, a CPA who works for me, and she's kind of down
the hall a little bit from me, got a phone call. And she's
very emotional, expressive; and I heard that she -- I could
hear her being upset. And she said, "What was that," something
about a federal building.
So I got up and walked to her doorway. And then she
says, "Alfred Murrah Federal Building," and I just leaned
against the wall. And I said, "Well, that's where Michael and
Tony are."
So she quickly got off the phone; and I keep a little
TV in a cabinet in my office; and so we turned it on, and
that's when we knew what happened.
Q. When you saw the picture of the building, what was your
first reaction?
A. Well, I think when you're in somewhat of a state of shock,
you don't know what you're seeing. And I think my first
impression was that maybe only the glass was gone from the
front of the building. And then as I watched some more and I
saw probably a helicopter's overview of the building, I could
see where his office was just wasn't there anymore.
Q. How long did it take before you learned anything about your
son?
Dora Reyes - Direct
A. I've been told that I knew about 10:00 that morning.
Q. And what did you learn about your son, Michael?
A. Well, he had been on the 7th floor, and he fell four
stories to the 3d floor.
Q. Was he injured?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us about his injuries.
A. He had cuts on his face and on his hands and his back, and
he was hurt in the hip area; but things were not broken that he
needed a cast. And he had to stay in the hospital overnight.
Q. And he was out the next day?
Is he back at work at HUD?
A. Yes.
Q. Is he doing fine?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you have to wait to learn about the condition
of your husband?
A. Ten days.
Q. And ten days later, you were informed that your husband
was -- husband's body was found?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. What was the impact of your husband's death on the Hispanic
community in Oklahoma City?
A. Well, they lost a great volunteer. Several people who he
has worked with in the various organizations tell me now and
Dora Reyes - Direct
then how much they miss him; and every once in a while, I run
into people that knew Tony that I don't even know, who may have
volunteered with him by working with him in the federal
building or by working with him at LCDA or OHPA; and they'll
tell me how much they do miss Tony, because he was such a vital
part of their organization.
Q. Now, you have two children and grandchildren?
What has been the impact on your family of Tony's
death?
A. Well, when the bombing happened, David was about five and
Leah wasn't quite three.
Q. Those are your grandchildren?
A. Uh-huh. And the thing I remember the most, and the hardest
thing is that when we became grandparents, well, you would have
thought that Tony invented grandparenthood, he was just so
excited about the kids. We always tried to get them about once
a month. My daughter lives in Coffeyville, Kansas. And, of
course, whether I could go with him or not, Tony brought them
to Edmond.
And he was -- Tony was such a kid at heart. He -- one
of the things that he did with the -- one of the last things I
remember him doing is we had a very long hallway in our house.
And he would get on all fours and put David on his back and do
giddy-up down the hall. And he did that with Leah, too. And
at first, the hardest thing for me is that they're going to
Dora Reyes - Direct
forget grandpa.
Q. How about yourself? What has been the impact on your life
of the loss of your husband, the man that's been with you for
almost your whole life?
A. Well, I've always been a very go-getter type of person,
self-employed. I had to always push, but I had a reason to
push. I was pushing for . . . saving money for retirement; and
the hours that you have to put in as a CPA can be gruesome.
And I was really able to do that up until the bombing, and now
it's -- it's just very hard to do. My motivation just isn't
there anymore. I do it, but I just -- I'm having trouble.
Q. Your community work; has it affected that?
A. I have not done anything with AMBUC or anything with the
children's festival; and I went -- I did something with the
jazz festival only last year, and I didn't this year. I can't
seem to do it anymore.
MR. MENDELOFF: Thank you.
Nothing further your Honor.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MR. BURR: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, the Government calls Laura
Kennedy.
Your Honor, you wouldn't want me to provide any
forewarning about the testimony on any of these people, would
you? I mean some of them are going to be more difficult than
others. Is that appropriate?
THE COURT: Well, we'll take it as it comes.
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you.
THE COURT: About how long will this witness be?
MR. RYAN: I would say 15, 20 minutes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Let's go forward with her, and
then we'll take a recess.
Well, perhaps there's some trouble arranging it.
We'll take the recess now.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: We'll, at this time, members of the jury,
take our afternoon rest stop, which I'm sure is welcome to you.
And we'll recess now for the usual 20-minute period and with
the usual cautions, avoiding discussion among yourselves about
anything taking place in the courtroom and also keeping open
minds, remembering that you're going to hear much more and also
will be hearing from the defense with respect to mitigation.
So please follow these cautions and exercise that discipline in
your own minds.
You're excused, 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 3:04 p.m.)
THE COURT: Was it the next witness that you had in
mind?
MR. HARTZLER: Yes, it was. And then I also need to
tell you that one of the witnesses, we didn't plan on getting
to today, but clearly will -- needs to have a short voir dire.
So I propose that we proceed with the next witness and then
maybe if you could take a ten-minute break, which would well be
appropriate, we could do the voir dire then. Is that possible?
THE COURT: What is it with respect to the next
witness that will be --
MR. HARTZLER: She lost a small child.
THE COURT: All right. We'll take a 20-minute recess.
(Recess at 3:05 p.m.)
(Reconvened at 3:24 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
So we have, what, four witnesses and then the voir
dire people?
MR. HARTZLER: If we get word that there is a fifth,
we'll go with five.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HARTZLER: Four for sure and possibly a fifth.
THE COURT: Well, let's go; and then if those
people -- if we're completed with their testimony before 5,
we'll recess early and do the voir dire.
You let me know where we are.
MR. HARTZLER: I will. And we have some videotapes we
might fill in, too, depending on the time.
THE COURT: And then we'll do the voir dire at an --
or as soon as we recess.
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you.
THE COURT: Jury.
(Jury in at 3:25 p.m.)
THE COURT: Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: We had called Laura Kennedy, but I
believe she's not available, so we will call Pam Whicher.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. HARTZLER: And Mr. Mackey will question her.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Pamela Whicher affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My name is Pamela Susan Whicher,
W-H-I-C-H-E-R.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Whicher.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. Tell the jury where you live.
Pamela Whicher - Direct
A. I live in Rockville, Maryland, suburban area of Washington,
D.C.
Q. And are you from that area?
A. Originally, yes. I'm from the Washington area.
Q. And did you go to junior high school in that area?
A. I went to junior high school in Maryland, yes.
Q. And while in junior high school, did you meet another
junior high schooler named Alan Whicher?
A. Yes, I did. I met Alan in eighth grade. We were both 14.
He was kind of a BMOC. He was president of the class, and I
was just a little kind of studious kid, but we knew each other
to say hi.
Q. And he saw enough to -- that several years later, the two
of you got married?
A. Yes.
Q. And when was that?
A. We got married in 1974, after graduating from high school
together. We were high school sweethearts and --
Q. Had both of you gone off to college?
A. Yes. We were both going to Maryland University. I decided
to quit after a year. I really wanted to marry this guy and
the sooner the better; so I went to work for the Navy, and Alan
finished his college career at Maryland, majored in law
enforcement.
Q. When did he graduate?
Pamela Whicher - Direct
A. He graduated actually a semester early. He went to school
during the summer and graduated summa cum laude. I'm very
proud of him. No problems with the grades. Great grades.
Q. And he graduated from the University of Maryland?
A. Right. Right.
Q. Did he go to work after getting his college degree?
A. After getting his college degree, he applied to several
police departments and several federal agencies. He substitute
taught for a while in high school, but the Secret Service
called him pretty early. He was only 21, probably one of the
youngest agents to work for the Secret Service.
Q. And that's where he went to work?
A. Yes.
Q. In 1976?
A. '76.
Q. The two of you started a family?
A. Right.
Q. And you had three children?
A. We have three children.
Q. Who are they?
A. The oldest one is Meredith Susan. She's 19. My next
daughter is Melinda Therese. She's 17. And my youngest is
Ryan Gerald. He's 14.
Q. Before you I think, Mrs. Whicher, is Government's Exhibit
1453. Do you see that in front of you?
Pamela Whicher - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Is that a family photograph taken a few years ago?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Does that depict your family including your husband, Alan
Whicher?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit and publish
Exhibit 1453.
MS. RAMSEY: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received, and you may publish it.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Ms. Whicher, this young lady on the far left-hand side of
the photograph is?
A. Is Melinda.
Q. She's the middle child?
A. Yes, she is.
Q. And approximately how old was she at the time of this
photograph?
A. She was 15.
Q. And you're standing next to her?
A. Yes.
Q. And the young man in front of you and Alan?
A. Is Ryan.
Q. How old was he at the time of this photograph?
A. I think he was 11 at that time.
Pamela Whicher - Direct
Q. And the young lady to the far right?
A. Is Meredith.
Q. How old was she at the time?
A. She was 16.
Q. And the person right behind her, then, is your husband,
Alan Whicher?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Where was this particular photograph taken?
A. This was taken on a cruise that we took, a family cruise.
We knew we were moving from Washington to Oklahoma and decided
to just kind of have some fun; and we went on a family cruise
to Panama Canal, almost exactly a year before Alan was killed.
It was in April of '93.
Q. Was it just the five of you?
A. Just the five of us.
Oh, no, I'm sorry. Actually, his mom came with us and
nieces and nephews. I'm sorry. I thought the picture you were
saying was just the five of us.
Yes, we went as a big group. We had a great time.
Q. Extended family?
A. Extended family, right.
Q. Well, let's go back to your husband's career with Secret
Service, and tell the jury where he served and the kind of
assignments he carried out.
A. He started out working the Washington field office, worked
Pamela Whicher - Direct
there for several years. We had a baby, and I didn't really
want to get transferred to another state; so we -- he applied
to work for the vice president detail for a while. He worked
there.
After working, I think, in Washington for probably,
oh, seven, eight years, we were transferred to New York -- he
was transferred to the New York field office, worked in the
World Trade some for three years, and then came back to
Washington for the president's detail, just a real busy career,
and decided to go to Oklahoma to get kind of a quieter office
so we'd have some time together as a family.
Q. Now, the last several years before moving to Oklahoma City
was spent in Washington, D.C. Is that right?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And was Alan or Alan Whicher in charge of a unit
responsible for the protection of the president?
A. Yes, he was. He was shift leader for one of the
president's shifts. The Secret Service has several shifts that
protect the presidents, and he was a shift leader.
Q. And how many different agents was he responsible for?
A. I'm not real sure. Somewhere between -- in the 25-agent
area. It would vary, but around 25 agents.
Q. Did it fall to your husband to assign those agents to
ensure the round-the-clock protection of the president?
A. Yes, it did.
Pamela Whicher - Direct
Q. And did his agents come to know him to be famous for any
particular expression as he carried out those duties?
A. Yes. Alan, being a shift leader, of course, you kind of
have control over all these guys' lives and who gets to go
where and when, and they would beg him for a break: I need to
be home for this or that. And Alan's famous saying was, "The
needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one," a quote from
an old Star Trek movie. So the shift got together and made
this "Vulcan Shift" T-shirt. And on the bottom it said, "The
needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one." He got
pretty famous for that.
Q. There came a time then when the family had to make a
decision about a shift in career. Correct?
A. Alan's career, especially when he was in PPD, was very
consuming. He was gone, traveled probably 30 percent of our
lives. He was gone. He missed birthdays, Christmases,
Thanksgiving, gave a lot to his job. And he came to me
somewhere during the winter of -- early winter of '94 and said,
"You know, I'm looking at my kids. They're growing up.
They're growing up without me. I haven't had much time with
them." He said, "How do you think they'd feel about a move
somewhere that would be quieter, not as much, you know,
high-profile work?"
And I said, "Let's talk to them."
We kind of called a family meeting. The kids were --
Pamela Whicher - Direct
girls were in high school. Mindy, I think, was getting ready
to go into high school; and they all were for it. They really
wanted to spend some time with their dad, too. There was a
little pull because they made a lot of friends, but they really
wanted some time with him, too.
And, you know, we were ready to have him have a 9-to-5
job and a dad that could spend weekends with us.
Q. And so that was a family decision made together?
A. It was.
Q. And that decision then led to the family moving to Oklahoma
City?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. When did that happen?
A. We moved in Oklahoma -- to Oklahoma in August of 1994.
Q. And what position did your husband have when he arrived
there in Oklahoma City?
A. He was the assistant to the Special Agent in Charge of
Oklahoma City field office.
Q. And that would be the equivalent of the No. 2 man in charge
of the operation?
A. Right.
Q. Can you tell the jury a little bit about the transition
that you went through in the move out to Oklahoma City. How
did you begin to integrate into the community?
A. I had had a job in Maryland teaching deaf and hard-of-
Pamela Whicher - Direct
hearing kids. Actually, I was just a teacher's aide, but it
was fun. And we moved out to Oklahoma. I contacted some
people who work with deaf children, and I do a special kind of
interpreting for deaf kids that's not like sign language. It's
a little different.
And so I was kind of trying to integrate this new
method for teaching deaf kids into Oklahoma, which I thought
would be a fun thing to get into. So I talked to some people
there, met a lady who also taught deaf kids, and she invited me
to join her Bible study. I joined her Bible study, really kind
of was making friends in the neighborhood, have morning coffees
and things like that. I felt pretty at home pretty quick in
Oklahoma. Very nice place.
Q. Well, let's move our attention to April 19, 1995. And was
that a day that this Bible group was to get together?
A. It was the last day of our Bible study. I was one of the
new people that had been brought in that year, and I had also
come from out of state, so they asked me if I would speak that
day at the Bible study, just to say what I had gotten out of
the study in a year and the friends I had met, what it meant to
me.
The night before, I was kind of preparing a little
speech what I was going to say that day. I'm kind of a nervous
speaker, so Alan sat down and kind of looked through what I had
written and helped me edit it a little bit and pare it down.
Pamela Whicher - Direct
And yes, I was getting ready that morning basically to go out
to make my speech, so . . .
Q. That morning was a school morning: I take it the kids went
off to school?
A. Right. It was a pretty average morning. I mean, Alan was
running a little late and kind of being a Type A guy, you know,
he was really pushing to get out to work.
I was -- the kids were just starting to stir upstairs.
I was making Alan breakfast. Usually, he made his own
breakfast. I was making it for him to help him keep moving
along. I was actually kind of pushing him out because I also
wanted to get dressed up that morning to go to my Bible study.
The kids were kind of leaning -- we have a railing
over the top of the family room, and they were kind of leaning
down, "Bye-bye, Dad." I think that they really regretted not
coming downstairs that day to give him a hug, but it was a
busier morning than we usually have, so . . .
Q. What was your last conversation with Alan Whicher?
A. He gave me a hug and went off to work. He called me about
quarter of 9, somewhere in that area that morning. He had
forgotten to wish me luck on my speech because he was in such a
rush that morning and he called me up, you know, a little bit
of a pep talk. "I know you can do it, Honey; and you'll do
fine. I love you."
He had also asked when we had discussed taking a trip
Pamela Whicher - Direct
that weekend with the kids, you know, to Tulsa or he said,
"Call up your girlfriend, get some information, stuff we might
do this weekend."
I said okay. I was kind of hurrying him off the phone
because I had to get to Bible study by 9:30.
He said, "Love you. "
I said, "I love you" back. Last time I ever spoke to
him.
Q. And a few minutes after the end of that phone call, what
happened?
A. A few minutes after the end of that phone call, I heard the
explosion. I knew it was not normal sound. It was real
distinctive. I thought maybe a boiler had blown up in the
school, which was right behind our house. I looked out my back
window. I couldn't see anything going on.
I turned on my little television set over the kitchen
sink and was kind of washing up breakfast, and they said that a
building in Oklahoma City had been bombed -- I'm not sure if
they said "bombed" right away, but that there had been an
explosion. And at first, they said it was the courthouse. I
wasn't real worried. When I first heard the word "federal
building," I just got real, real scared. I knew there wasn't
many federal buildings in Oklahoma City.
Q. Not having lived in Oklahoma City very long, were you aware
of the name of the federal building?
Pamela Whicher - Direct
A. No. I did not know that it was called the Alfred P. Murrah
Building at all. I -- actually, what I did was I went to Bible
study. I got in my car and I tried to call Al and -- the whole
time. I had a cell phone. I called him the whole time I was
going there. I ran in, and they were the only real friends I
could think of at the time. I didn't -- just didn't know that
many people off the top of my head, and I just was asking
people, did anybody know, you know, if that building had the
Secret Service in it.
And a lady called up her father, who worked for the
government; and he said that indeed it did have the Secret
Service on the 9th floor. And so they offered to drive me
home. I drove home myself. They followed me home. And I went
home, and the waiting began.
Q. In the course of that afternoon or later that morning, did
you begin to assemble the children back home?
A. I hadn't been home very long. I got a phone call from
Melinda and she said, "Mom, was that Dad's building?"
I said it was.
And I said, "Please, you know, come home, get your
sister and come home," and so they came home.
I thought about calling Ryan. He was just in sixth
grade at the time. I decided not to. I didn't see what good
it would do him to join in the waiting.
The girls came home. Some friends came over.
Pamela Whicher - Direct
Everybody had cell phones. We were trying desperately to see
if we could find Alan or find out where he might be.
Q. Later, by evening, Ryan had made it home, I take it.
A. Ryan called me that morning. I had given him some money,
and he really wanted to go to the ice cream shop, which was
right beside the school; so he called me from the ice cream
shop and asked if that was Daddy's building. And I said it
was.
And he said he was just going to come home, he didn't
want ice cream anymore. And he came home, and he was just a
different little boy walking in my door than when he went out
that morning who was worried about what flavor ice cream he
might get that day.
It was a different face.
Q. Ms. Whicher, did you know of a special friend that your
husband had from Secret Service by the name of Steve Colo?
A. Yes, I did. Alan and Steve went to school together,
treasury school in Glynco, Georgia. They kind of got to be
good buddies right away, and their careers kind of stuck
together.
Q. That night, late that night, April 19, did you see Steve
Colo?
A. Yes, I did. He -- I had kind of shooed everybody out of
the house around 6:00, right around the time Alan was supposed
to come home. I just wanted to be at home with the kids. We
Pamela Whicher - Direct
kind of all fell asleep on my bed. I think it was around
11:00, I got a telephone call from Steve Colo, and he said he
was in Oklahoma City. And I knew if Steve was there that the
news wasn't good, if they had brought Steve there.
So Steve just came right over and he sat me down in
the kitchen, and he -- I remember just facing him, and he said,
"It's not good, Honey. It's not good at all. We don't think
Alan survived."
And I remember screaming out that I wanted to die,
which I still really regret because my kids were upstairs
listening, and I think it kind of frightened them that they'd
lost their dad and -- anyway, so I -- Steve and I went upstairs
and talked to the kids and a lot of hugging, a lot of tears.
Q. Eventually, you were formally notified that Alan had indeed
died in the blast?
A. Yes.
Q. And when was that?
A. That was, I think, Friday morning around 6:00. I think
they had found him around 2 -- 1 or 2 in the morning.
Q. And it was your choice not to observe his body or --
A. I -- I made the decision not to do that. It's something I
really wish I had put in front of the children. I think it's
something I still think my kids have a hard time dealing with.
They really wish they had seen their dad one more time. I made
the best decisions I could at the time. I regret it, but I
Pamela Whicher - Direct
don't beat myself for it. I was doing the best I could.
Q. A lot of time has passed since April, 1995, and I just have
a couple questions. If you would, on behalf of your children,
describe to the jury the impact on their lives that you have
observed over the course of this time.
A. The worst part for them, I think, has been Meredith
graduated from high school last year, and her dad wasn't there.
She was also elected to the court for whatever, the homecoming
court. And your dad is supposed to walk you out on the
football field at homecoming, and I just remember her walking
out on the field teary. All these other girls were all smiling
and happy, and she was teary.
She, I think, kind of took over in a way, and she's
become tough and strong. And there is good sides to that, but
it's a lot to expect of an 18-year-old.
Melinda has had the hardest time. She was like her
daddy's little girl. She -- she told me that she has learned
to hate, which is a horrible thing to hear coming from your
16-year-old baby. I never expected I'd hear this kind of talk
from my girls. She wrote a paper for school. The topic was a
day that changed her life. And this is as the year we moved
back to Maryland; and at the end of the paper, she said that "I
never knew such a dark, horrible place existed until I had to
go there; and I'm clawing my way out as best I can."
I think she's doing a good job. She's coming back.
Pamela Whicher - Direct
Ryan is -- he came to me several days after we got
back from the funeral and said, "Mom, I'm going to be the man
now and take care of you." He's 12 years old.
And I said, "Honey, you just be a 12-year-old."
He's been very good. He -- for the longest time -- in
fact, he told me. He said, "I'm going to pretend --" his daddy
traveled a lot, and he was used to his dad traveling. He said,
"I'm going to pretend my dad is on a trip for a while."
I said: "That's okay. You do that for a while as
long as you can."
He went through puberty that summer, which is so
hard -- to kids anyway. He started to get a little beard. And
I said, "Honey, you've got to shave, that you're looking
messy."
And I just remember him -- it's the first time he came
out again -- he slammed the wall with his fist and he said,
"Who is going to teach me how to shave it?"
So I called my dad, but --
Q. Mrs. Whicher, let me just ask the final question.
A. Sure.
Q. I think we've learned a little bit already.
A. Okay.
Q. But how is your life today?
A. I'm -- my life right now is getting better. It's totally
different. It's without Alan -- he's the man I loved from the
Pamela Whicher - Direct
time I was 17. He was my best friend. I remember thinking
when I knew he was gone I was never going to see him again,
because we grew up together, practically. We had forged such a
close bond. It's a little bit like learning to live with --
without your arm. You still do what you got to do, but
everything is changed, and you have to find a new way to live
your life; and I think I'm doing that.
One of the things I told the kids after this
happened -- it's a Bible quote. I said, "Be not overcome by
evil but overcome evil with good." And I have determined for
myself and my children that we would do that, so we have built
a new life. And it's been hard, but we're going to be okay.
MR. MACKEY: Ms. Whicher, thank you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MS. RAMSEY: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Government calls Kathleen Treanor.
Ms. Behenna will question her.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Kathleen Treanor affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Kathleen Treanor, T-R-E-A-N-O-R.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Where do you live, Ms. Treanor?
A. I'm sorry?
Q. Where do you live?
A. I live in Guthrie, Oklahoma. It's about 30 miles north of
Oklahoma City.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes, I am. My husband's name is Michael Treanor.
Q. How long have you been married?
A. It will be three years in a couple of weeks.
Q. Is this a second marriage?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Do you have any children, Ms. Treanor?
A. I had three children. I have two boys remaining, David,
who is 11, and Zachary, my son, who is almost 9.
Q. And you had a little girl?
A. Ashley. Ashley Eckles.
Q. How old was Ashley?
A. Ashley was 4 1/2.
Q. Would you consider yourselves to be a blended family?
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
A. Oh, yes. David is Michael's little boy from a previous
marriage, and Zachary and Ashley were mine from a previous
marriage.
The funny thing about Ashley, though, is she was so
very young when we -- our families came together, she was the
bridge. She called Michael "Daddy," and she loved him as a
daddy.
I can remember one morning -- or one night, actually,
whenever she called him into the bedroom and she said, "I'm the
luckiest little girl in the world because I have two daddies
that love me very much."
And he came out of the room that night and he said,
"Thank you for giving me a daughter."
Q. You and Mike don't have children together.
A. No, ma'am. I can't have any children anymore.
Q. I'm going to show you Government's Exhibit 1489. Okay?
And it will appear on that computer screen in front of you.
Can you identify that?
A. Yes.
Q. You've seen that before?
A. Lots of times.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission
of Government's Exhibit 1489.
MR. JONES: No objection.
THE COURT: Received. It may be published.
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
MS. BEHENNA: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Describe for the jury who that is and what they're seeing
on this photograph.
A. That's my son Zachary and my daughter, Ashley.
Q. When was that picture taken?
A. Not very long before the bombing. Probably a couple of
months.
Q. Sometime in 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Spring of '95?
A. Yes.
Q. You stated that you lived in Guthrie. Do you live on some
land in Guthrie?
A. Yes. As a matter of fact, we live on about a quarter of
160-acre section that belonged to my mother-in-law and
father-in-law, Luther and LaRue Treanor. There are
approximately four houses on that quarter acre of land --
quarter section of land.
Q. Who lives out there?
A. Michael and I have a house; and his sister, Debbie, and
Buddy Price live behind us; and also his younger brother, Mark,
has a house there as well. Before the bombing, Luther and
LaRue lived there as well.
Q. And that's Mike's mother and father?
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1208C. I'd ask you if
you can identify that.
A. Yes. That's LaRue. LaRue Treanor.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, I would move for the
admission -- actually, I believe it's already admitted on a
chart, Government's Exhibit 1208.
THE COURT: All right. So this is off of that chart.
MS. BEHENNA: It's off the chart, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. It's received.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Can you identify that picture for the jury, Ms. Treanor?
A. Yes. That's LaRue Treanor, my mother-in-law.
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1208D. And who is
that?
A. That is Luther Treanor, my father-in-law.
Q. And they lived out there with you on the 80 acres of land
as well as the other people that you've identified?
A. Just a hop, skip and a jump away.
Q. Did Luther Treanor work?
A. From the time he was 11 years old, he worked. He was a
milkman for Townley's Dairy.
Q. Did he also farm?
A. Yes. He loved his farm. He so loved his cattle. He had
just about every one of them named. He could tell you what any
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
one of them was doing at any particular time. He knew what was
going on every second of the day with his farm.
Q. What about LaRue Treanor? Did she work?
A. She did at one point. She had a slip-and-fall accident and
was confined to the house. Her work was taking care of the
children for us.
Q. And the children that you're speaking of are your children
and Mike's children? Right?
A. All of her grandchildren, and she had eight great children
at the time -- at the time.
Q. Ranging in ages from what to what?
A. Let's see. David would have been the oldest at that
time -- he was nine -- clear down to a tiny baby.
Q. And how long had she taken care of her grandchildren?
A. Since David was a tiny baby.
Q. For a long time?
A. For a very long time, yes.
Q. Your in-laws were not federal employees, were they?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. I'm going to direct your attention to the morning of
April 19, 1995. You worked outside the home.
A. Yes.
Q. And LaRue Treanor, your mother-in-law, took care of Ashley
for you?
A. That's right.
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
Q. She wasn't in school at that time, was she?
A. No, ma'am. She was getting ready to start school in the
fall, and she was very excited about that. She was looking
forward to it.
Q. And your mother-in-law also helped get the two older boys
off to school?
A. Yes. As a matter of fact, that morning I had gathered the
three children up in my car, and we made the short drive over
there. By habit, I would spend 15 to 30 minutes in the morning
just to visit with mom and to make sure that the kids were
situated before I left for work, just kind of was a routine,
kind of helped me get my day started; and I did that that
morning as well.
Q. And then you left the house, leaving David and Zachary and
Ashley with their grandmother?
A. Gave all of them a hug and kiss; and as I was leaving,
Ashley ran up to the door and threw her arms against the doors
and gave me one of her little, mischievous grins and she said,
"You cannot leave."
And I said, "But Ashley, I have to go to work today."
And she said, "You cannot leave until you give me
another hug and kiss."
So I leaned down, and she threw her arms around my
neck; and she gave me a real hard kiss on the lips and hugged
me again, and we rubbed noses.
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
Q. And then you went to --
A. And then I went to work.
Q. When did you learn that your mother-in-law and your
father-in-law and your daughter were downtown in Oklahoma City?
A. It was about 10:30 in the morning.
Q. Up until that moment in time, you had no idea that they had
gone downtown to the federal building?
A. I knew that they had an appointment downtown, but I did not
connect that it was at the federal building. My sister --
Q. I was just going to ask how did you learn that your in-laws
as well as your daughter were downtown in the Murrah Building?
A. My sister called me. I had just started a new job, and she
wasn't certain exactly where I worked downtown; and she was
worried about me. She thought I might have been hurt.
And she called and begged me to come home. And I told
her no, I needed to stay close, just in case I could do
something.
And I asked her, because the phone lines were so
jammed -- I said, "Please call Mom and let her know that I'm
okay so she doesn't worry."
And she said she would.
And we hung up; and of course, I watched the video on
the TV for a while.
And then about 15 to 30 minutes later, she called
back. She managed to get through and she said, "Kathleen,
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
where is Ashley?"
And I said, "Well, Ashley is with Mom."
And there was a big pause, and she said, "Did you not
remember that Luther and LaRue had an appointment at Social
Security today?"
And I said, "Well, yeah, I remember, but that's over
at the capital complex; that's nowhere near where this building
is."
And she said: "No. I worked downtown. I know that
Social Security is in that building."
And I argued with her for probably five minutes before
I realized she was right and she knew what she was talking
about.
Q. And you made a call, then, to your in-laws' house, didn't
you?
A. I hung up with her and I called the house, because I
couldn't believe it.
Q. Who did you talk to when you called the house?
A. Brad, Mike's little brother, answered the phone, and he was
there.
Q. And he tells you what?
A. I asked him, "Where are Mom and Dad?"
He said: "I don't know. I think they had an
appointment downtown. I'm going right now to see if I can find
them."
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
He gave me his pager number, and we hung up.
When I hung up from him, I called the Red Cross and I
described Ashley, everything that she was wearing right down to
her little panties, because I dressed her that morning.
Q. You not only called the Red Cross, but you called other
hospitals in downtown Oklahoma City?
A. All of them. I made the whole circuit.
Q. And at one point in time, you decide to head downtown to
St. Anthony's to see if you can find your in-laws and Ashley;
right?
A. I had called Michael and asked him to please come. I
needed him to be there with me because I didn't know what else
to do.
And my boss at the time -- he said: "Come on.
They're putting a list up at St. Anthony's. We need to get you
down there and see if she's somewhere in the city, if she had
been found."
So we went there, and I ran right over to the wall;
and I scoured the list, looking for any sign of any one of
them, and none of them were there.
So I just sit down and waited, and finally Michael
came; and we waited and we waited all day long, we waited.
Q. And you leave St. Anthony's Hospital later that afternoon
and you go --
A. About 5:00 that evening, they told us that any further
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
information would be given to the First Christian Church and
that we should move there and we would be made comfortable.
So we did.
Q. And you go to the First Christian Church, and you provide
the people there with information about your daughter Ashley;
right?
A. That's right.
Q. As well as --
A. And we sat down with the medical examiner, and he asked for
any kind of medical records or dental records or any kind of
identifying scars or marks that might be able to identify them.
Q. You also provide information about your in-laws.
A. Yes.
Q. And you go home?
A. No. We waited there for probably four or five hours.
Q. And eventually go on home?
A. And finally we did go home, and we had to tell our boys
what had happened.
At that point, we hadn't given up hope. We still
thought they might be found.
Q. At some point in time, you were called by the law
enforcement officers wanting to come over to your house and
dust Ashley's things for fingerprints.
A. And I told him that wouldn't be necessary. My husband was
a reserve police officer; and he had taken all three of the
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
children down with the Cub Scouts to take their fingerprints,
kind of a child-protection-service thing.
Q. And you provide those fingerprints to the law enforcement
officers?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember the day that you do that?
A. Yeah.
Q. Was it April 21, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you receive a call later April 21, 1995?
A. Yeah, between 4 and 5 that evening, we got a call, I
believe, from the medical examiner's office, asked us to please
come down to the First Christian Church; that they had some
information for us.
Q. And you get to the First Christian Church. You're notified
that they have recovered and they've identified your daughter,
Ashley?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you also tell the medical examiner's staff at that time
not to call you again until both LaRue Treanor and Luther
Treanor have been found and identified?
A. Yes. Actually, Michael asked them to do that because we
were all down there and we were all in utter shock, you know,
from losing three people from our family at one time. It would
have been more than we could have taken to be dragged down
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
there two more times, so we asked them just to limit it to one.
Q. And you later receive a phone call about Luther and LaRue
Treanor having been found?
A. When we came back from Ashley's funeral, we called from the
church. And we had four messages from the medical examiner's
office asking us to please come down to the church again; that
they had more information for us. So once again, we gathered
all the family together and we went down to the First Christian
Church.
Q. Now, that didn't end your contact with the medical
examiner's office, did it, Ms. Treanor?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. As a matter of fact, you receive a call from the medical
examiner's office in November of 1995, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And the voice at the other end of that telephone
conversation tells you that he has some more information for
you. Do you remember that call?
A. Yes. It was Ray Blakeney.
Q. What does Mr. Blakeney tell you?
A. He says, "I'm very sorry, but I have to tell you this so I
know what I need to do." He said, "We have recovered a portion
of Ashley's hand; and we wanted to know if you wanted that
buried in the mass grave, or if you would like to have it to do
with what you need to do."
Kathleen Treanor - Direct
And I said, "Of course, I want it. It's a part of
her, and I need to have it where I know it is."
So we called our funeral director, and he made
arrangements for us.
MS. BEHENNA: All right. I know this is difficult,
and I'm sorry to have to ask you that.
Your Honor, that's all I have.
THE COURT: All right. Any questions?
MR. JONES: No questions for this witness.
THE COURT: All right. Mrs. Treanor, you may step
down. You're excused.
MR. JONES: Your Honor, may I approach the bench?
THE COURT: Yes.
(At the bench:)
(Bench Conference 133B1 is not herein transcribed by court
order. It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
(In open court:)
THE COURT: Did you announce your next witness? I
can't remember.
MR. HARTZLER: No, we haven't. The next witness is
Ruth Hightower. Ms. Wilkinson will question her.
THE COURT: Thank you.
A little mixup here? We're moving faster than
anticipated, I'm sure, so . . .
MR. HARTZLER: We'll call Laura Kennedy, then, who was
not available previously but apparently is now.
Mr. Ryan will question her.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. JONES: Your Honor, may I approach the bench?
THE COURT: Yes.
(At the bench:)
(Bench Conference 133B2 is not herein transcribed by court
order. It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
(In open court:)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Laura Kennedy affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Laura Sue Kennedy, K-E-N-N-E-D-Y.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Mrs. Kennedy, how are you?
A. Fine.
Q. Would you tell us where you live, please.
A. I live near Amber, Oklahoma.
Q. And where is Amber?
A. Between Chickasha and Tuttle. It's about 45 to an hour
drive from Oklahoma City.
Q. And how old are you?
A. I'm 28.
Q. And how long have you lived in Amber?
A. Five years this summer.
Q. And you're in Amber because of who?
Laura Kennedy - Direct
A. My husband.
Q. His name is what?
A. Steve.
Q. When did you and Steve marry?
A. June 15 of 1991.
Q. Would you describe for us your home there in Amber.
A. We have a small farm. We own 10 acres, and we raise sheep.
Q. And tell us something of your education, please.
A. I went to school at Verden; and then when I graduated from
high school, I went to southwestern Oklahoma State University,
which is at Weatherford, Oklahoma. And I graduated with an
accounting degree.
Q. How did you use your accounting degree after graduating
from school?
A. I -- two months after I graduated, I was offered a job with
the United States Department of Health and Human Services,
Office of Inspector General, office of audit as an auditor.
Q. And where did you work?
A. In the Murrah Federal Building.
Q. I take it your degree was in accounting?
A. Yes.
Q. On what floor of the Murrah Building did you work?
A. The 3d floor.
Q. There is some water there, if you need it.
A. Okay.
Laura Kennedy - Direct
Q. There is water in the pitcher and cups there for you.
A. Okay.
Q. You had a child.
A. Yes.
Q. And what was your child's name?
A. Blake Ryan Kennedy.
Q. And in April of '95, how old was Blake?
A. He was 18 months.
Q. His birthday was when?
A. October 10 of '93.
Q. Would you help us learn something about Blake? Could you
tell us about his personality and the things that he enjoyed.
A. Blake was a very special little boy, very outgoing, very
happy, not -- just a really good kid, not any trouble. He was
like sunshine. He was just always smiling and grinning, and he
attracted people. They wanted to be next to him because he had
such a bubbly, outgoing personality.
Q. I'm going to show you an exhibit that we've marked as 1477.
Can you identified that photograph?
A. Yes. That's my husband, Steve, and me and Blake before he
had hair.
Q. Okay.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer Exhibit 1477 and
offer -- and ask to publish it to the jury, please.
MR. JONES: No objection, your Honor.
Laura Kennedy - Direct
THE COURT: It's received, and you may display it.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, if you would, the jury has seen it for the first time.
Would you go through the photograph again with them, please.
A. Oh. This is my husband, Steve. And that's me, and this is
Blake.
Q. How old was Blake at the time this photograph was taken?
A. 5 1/2 months. He had just lost his hair and was just
getting in some blonde.
Q. Was he outgoing?
A. Yes. He loved the day care. He just loved people in
general. He loved the day care. He had several friends at the
day care.
Q. Who were his friends at the day care?
A. Tevin Garrett was his best friend at the day care. They
had both been going there since they were babies.
Another one of his really good friends was a little
girl named Erin.
Q. Did he look after her sometimes?
A. Yes. Erin's mom told me that about three weeks before the
bombing, when the day care had changed owners, that Erin was
crying and her mom was trying to get her coat off. And Erin
wouldn't stop crying because there were so many new workers
there and she didn't know who they were.
And Blake came up to her and tapped her on the
Laura Kennedy - Direct
shoulder, and Erin turned around and Blake just gave her a big
hug and took her hand and then walked off with her. And she
was still wearing her coat.
Q. Blake and your husband, Steve: Were they close?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they play together from time to time?
A. They played together. My husband's still a kid at heart,
and they liked to play. And Blake was a ball kid. Everything
round he thought was a ball, whether it was a ball or not; and
he liked to play ball. And they were really -- they were more
like playmates than they were father and son.
Q. Ms. Kennedy, I'm going -- you were in the Murrah Building
on the 19th, on the 3d floor, were you not?
A. Yes. Yes, I was.
Q. I'm going to delete from your testimony everything that has
to do with April 19. Okay?
A. Okay.
Q. And let's just move ahead to have you tell us about the
impact of losing your son, Blake, on you and your husband.
A. To say it has been rough is an understatement. Blake was
our only child, first born. We both have very big families.
Steve is the oldest of five children. Blake was the first
grandchild on that side of the family, the second on my side of
the family; so he was always the center of attention at the
family gatherings. So I know that -- speaking for them, I know
Laura Kennedy - Direct
that they really miss him.
For me personally, Blake was my life. I -- for months
after the bombing, I didn't care what happened to me. I didn't
care if I lived or died. I didn't care about my physical
injuries from the bombing or any kind of physical problems I
was having. I didn't -- I didn't, you know -- it was suggested
that I go on maybe some antidepression -- depression medicine,
and I didn't care because I wanted to be depressed. I had a
good reason to be depressed. I had lost the most important
thing in my life.
Q. Was counseling recommended for you and your husband, Steve?
A. Yes, it was. And we didn't feel bad about going to
counseling. We thought, you know, maybe it would help.
Q. Do you have any other children?
A. No. Blake was our first born.
Q. Have you thought about having other children?
A. A little. At first, I didn't think about it. People
always instantly think that that's the thing that will make you
better. And it -- there will never be another Blake. And I --
I couldn't see that people would suggest that having another
would make the pain go away. The pain --
Q. Excuse me. Go ahead.
A. The pain will always be with us.
Q. Now, Blake had his own room in your house?
A. Yes.
Laura Kennedy - Direct
Q. And have you changed that room in any way?
A. Very little.
Q. Are his clothes still in the closet?
A. Clothes are still in the closet on hangers.
Q. Have you talked to the counselors about this problem?
A. Yes. It's not -- it's not to be a shrine, it's not that --
for a little while, I thought about, you know, Blake will be
home soon; but then I realized that that was just -- I was just
being foolish. He wasn't coming back. And occasionally, my
husband -- my husband and I will go in there and sit, and it
makes us feel close to him; but it's just -- it's too hard to
go through that stuff. And our counselor said that we didn't
have to worry about it; that if we didn't need that room, then
we could just leave it like that.
Q. Do you and Steve still go to counseling?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. Have you since Blake died -- have you agreed to take
antidepressants?
A. For a little while, I was on them, but it was mostly to
help me sleep. There was a short period of time there where I
could hardly sleep at all, and they said that this medicine
would also help me sleep; and I was on them for a short time
until I was able to sleep on my own.
Q. Did you develop problems with your face and jaw?
A. I had -- the physical problems that I had as a result of
Laura Kennedy - Direct
the bombing were mostly I had some back pain and I also had
injury to my cheekbone; and after the bombing, I noticed that
my ears were ringing, I was getting headaches really bad, I was
hearing some popping when I opened my jaw and I eventually went
to a dentist. And he said partially due to the bombing itself
but mostly due to stress that I had TMJ.
Q. And that stands for temporal mandibular joint problem?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And did your dentist tell you why you were having these
problems?
A. Mostly due to stress, when I would get upset or angry, I
would grit my teeth, clench my, you know -- clench that and
that was causing the problems.
Q. Do you think you're doing better today than you were two
years ago?
A. Yes. I've made some progress, but it's very slow. It's a
day-to-day struggle. When I still see children, especially if
they are blonde-haired, blue-eyed, little boys, it's painful.
It's painful to be a mother and not have anybody to mother.
MR. RYAN: That's all I have, your Honor.
MR. JONES: I have no questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. You're
excused.
MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, we'd like to take a moment
to play Government's Exhibit 1427, which is one of the videos
of a glimpse into Brandon Denny's life.
THE COURT: All right.
Excuse me. What -- 1427?
MR. HARTZLER: Correct.
(Government's Exhibit 1427 played.)
THE COURT: What was the date of that? Do we have
that in the record?
MR. HARTZLER: It's in the stipulation. I think it's
December of '96.
MS. BEHENNA: Of 1996. Yes.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HARTZLER: We'll call Sherry Elliott. Mr. Ryan
will question her.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Cheryl Elliott affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My name is -- full name is Cheryl Lynn
Elliott, E-L-L-I-O-T-T.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Proceed.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
Cheryl Elliott - Direct
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Mrs. Elliott, where do you live?
A. I live in Temple, Texas.
Q. How old are you?
A. I'm 39.
Q. 39 and holding?
A. And holding for a couple weeks.
Q. Now, you're married, are you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Who is your husband?
A. Kent Elliott.
Q. And you live in Temple, Texas. Do you have a family?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us about your family, please.
A. My immediate family?
Q. Your children.
A. Yes. I have three children. My youngest is Amy. She's 10
years old. And then I have a 14-year-old son and a
15-1/2-year-old daughter.
Q. You work outside the home?
A. No. I'm a homemaker.
Q. What about your husband? Does he work there in Temple?
A. Yes.
Q. What does he do?
Cheryl Elliott - Direct
A. He's a physician. He's an anesthesiologist.
Q. And where does he work?
A. At Scott La Wine (phonetic) Hospital.
Q. Now, you're here because your parents, Charles and Jean
Hurlburt, died.
A. Yes.
Q. And where are you in the -- how many children did your
parents have?
A. Well, four living children. Eight total, but four died and
four living children.
Q. And they're all girls?
A. Yes.
Q. And where were you? First, second --
A. Third.
Q. Third?
A. Yes.
Q. Why don't you tell the jury, if you would, a little about
your father, Charles Hurlburt, where he was born, a little bit
about his life.
A. Okay. He was born in New York City -- Do you want me to
face you?
Q. That's all right. Just speak up a little bit.
A. He was born in New York, and my -- his parents were just
back on a short furlough. His parents were missionaries, as
were his grandparents; and so they went back to the mission
Cheryl Elliott - Direct
field in Africa; and he was raised in Africa till he was 26 and
was schooled out there on the mission compound and was really
anxious to have some formal training so he could help the
Africans.
And so he worked his way over to the United States on
a freighter and went to Wheaton College; and the only reason
they let him into Wheaton was just on probation. He
graduated -- he had never had any formal education, but he
graduated in three years and went on to dentistry and got his
dental degree.
Q. Okay.
A. And then he met my mother -- or met --
Q. Let's talk about Anna Jean a little bit. Tell the jury a
little bit about her.
A. She was born in Decatur, Texas, and went to college up at
Wheaton; and that's where she met my father.
Q. And when were they married?
A. Excuse me?
Q. When were they married?
A. In 1950.
Q. And if you would, then, tell us a little bit about their
early married lives.
A. Okay. Well, they got married, and then my mother finished
her nurse's training. And they had -- they lived up in
Illinois; and my two older sisters were born, Betty and Dawn,
Cheryl Elliott - Direct
and then they felt the Lord leading them, my mother as well, to
go out to the mission field. So they went to Belgium to get
one year of training. My mother and my dad spoke several
languages fluently, but my mother needed training in French and
Swahili to speak to the African people, so they went on over to
Africa and were missionaries there five years.
Q. And they were there how long?
A. Five years, and I was born out there.
Q. And where were you born out there?
A. In Ruanguba, Belgian Congo.
Q. Could you spell that?
A. R-U-A-N-G -- I can't even think -- U-B-A.
Q. Now, your parents apparently returned from Africa?
A. Yes.
Q. After five years?
A. Yeah. There was a lot of fighting and uprising in Africa,
just like there is now in Kinshasa, and they were given orders
to return home.
Q. And did they do that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that eventful?
A. Yes, it was. You know, they had already learned to trust
the Lord in all things out in Africa, and so they knew that God
would give them a safe return. And they accidentally --
because of a bad thunderstorm, the plane veered over the
Cheryl Elliott - Direct
Hungarian border, and they were forced down by a Russian MIG;
and they were kept there. And they were looking for Americans
on board, and my parents knew they were the only Americans.
They were out on the black tarmac, and my dad offered a
flashlight to assist them; and because of my dad's assisting
them, they forgot to check their passports. After several
hours, they released the plane, thinking there were no
Americans on board. And through that event, so many things
have come about. My father was on "To Tell the Truth," but
nobody ever knew that because he was a humble person. But that
was something we would brag about, but that was just one of
many things that -- instances in their life.
Q. Tell us a little bit about your father's career.
A. Well, he was a -- after they came back to the United
States, they felt the Lord leading them to stay here, and he
taught at Northwestern University in Chicago. And then he --
when I was 13, he wanted -- I think it was -- I can't think of
the year -- but he wanted to get training in dental radiology
and be a dental radiologist. So we moved to Birmingham,
Alabama; and we were there for three years while he got his
degree there.
Something I found out after they were dead, but my
sister told me: I remembered that he asked us if we wanted to
go out to move to North Carolina or to Oklahoma City. And he
really had wanted to go out to Chapel Hill, North Carolina,
Cheryl Elliott - Direct
because it was so beautiful out there, but --
Q. Over Oklahoma?
A. We said -- all the kids, you know -- Oklahoma City. We had
seen the movie "Oklahoma," and we said, "We want to go to
Oklahoma." But we thought that was his decision. And it's
just meant a lot to me to find out afterwards that, you know,
here this is a big move for them and he did what his
children -- you know, he had that choice and we moved to
Oklahoma, where his children wanted to go. And that's where I
met my husband.
Q. What did your father do in Oklahoma City?
A. He was -- began as an associate professor in dental
radiology at the university, the dental school, OU dental
school there in Oklahoma City, and then was promoted to full
professor and was a director of the department there until his
retirement in '89, but --
Q. In '89, was he made a professor emeritus of the dental
school?
A. I believe that was in 1991. That was honorary even
afterwards, because -- you know, he kept in close contact.
Even though he had retired, they continued to have those people
over regularly and give them Christmas gifts, you know. Their
friends were like family.
Q. Tell us, if you would, a little bit about your mother's
career, her professional life.
Cheryl Elliott - Direct
A. Okay. Well, she was a nurse in -- you know, wherever we
moved, she found a hospital and was a nurse. In Oklahoma City
specifically, she worked on several different floors, and I
think through that many of the nurses got to know her, but --
Q. She worked at the Deaconess Hospital; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who else at your family worked at Deaconess Hospital?
A. Barbie, my youngest sister.
Q. Now, when you think of your parents, Charles and Jean
Hurlburt, what qualities come to mind?
A. Their love for others and their love for the Lord and their
desire to serve the Lord by showing -- by loving others and
wanting other people to see Christ's love through them.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, I have a picture of the
Hurlburts I would offer as Exhibit 1536. I showed it to
Mr. Burr at the break, but I'd offer it at this time.
Be on the ELMO.
MS. RAMSEY: We have no objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
1536 is received, may be published.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. These are your parents. When was this picture taken in
relationship to their death in April of '95?
A. Let's see. '95? I believe that was New Year's of '94,
because it was -- we'd wanted them to come New Year's of '95
Cheryl Elliott - Direct
and they couldn't, because my sisters were up there visiting in
Oklahoma City --
Q. Thank you.
A. All right.
Q. Now, you didn't live in Oklahoma City in April of '95, did
you?
A. No.
Q. You lived in Temple, Texas?
A. Yes.
Q. Where your husband works?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. But your younger sister -- excuse me -- Barbie, lived
there; is that right?
A. Well, she lives in Harrah, and she works in Oklahoma City.
Q. At Deaconess Hospital?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us, if you would, about the morning of April 19 in
terms of what has been related to you through Barbie.
A. Well, okay. What happened with Barbie?
Q. Yes.
A. Right?
Actually, I don't -- when the bomb went off, what I
know of the day with Barbie is that she felt, as well as I
did -- didn't expect to hear from my parents that day about
anything, or didn't expect to call, even like, you know, Did
Cheryl Elliott - Direct
you hear that, did you hear the news, because we -- she felt
that my parents would have immediately gone down to work with
the Red Cross and to help out, because they had just completed
their Red Cross training so that they could help.
And so that evening, she -- even though she hadn't
heard from them and she had been trying to call them regularly
and they had -- they were not at home, but yet she felt like
they were -- like they were probably helping out with one of
the centers.
Through the night, I know that she and her husband,
Roy, continued to call, just to check and see if they had come
in. By morning, she had to go in to work.
Q. This is the morning of the 20th, now?
A. Yes. The next morning, Thursday morning, was feeling a
little bit nervous, thinking that, you know, they would have at
least come home and called her. And she went to work and tried
several times from there to reach them, and still no answer at
their home.
And so then she went -- I believe it was around 9 or
10:00 in the morning, asked permission to leave work. And she
needed to go to their home just to check things out, just find
out. You know, she was too nervous just to stay at work. She
couldn't concentrate.
And when she got to their house, their home was open,
windows; and she thought, well, I'll check to see if my dad's
Cheryl Elliott - Direct
medicine is there, because he never would go anywhere for an
extended period of time without it. And it was there in the
cabinet, and my mother's Social Security folder was next to the
phone and was opened up. And she saw a statement in there that
said, If you have any questions concerning things, go to the
Murrah Federal Building. And that's when she realized that it
was very likely, you know, since we hadn't been able to reach
them and they should have come home, that they could have been
there.
So Roy went downtown and circulated a photo of my
parents, just asking if anyone had seen them; and a newsman
came up and went on the air and said, "If anyone has seen this
couple, please call in." And a man called in and said that he
had been in line just before my father, he had seen my father
in line at the Social Security office; and he left just before,
and he had gotten out safely.
And then their van -- later that afternoon, it was
discovered their van was parked in front; and that's when we
realized that they were there; and by that time, our pastor's
wife in Oklahoma City had gone and several people had gone to
stay with Barbie at the house.
Q. And had she called you? Who called you to let you know
what happened?
A. I was waiting. I was told to wait for word. And my
husband was calling from the hospital, and evidently he got
Cheryl Elliott - Direct
word from our pastor's wife. And I didn't know that, and he
came home and gave me the news that night.
Q. What did you all do?
A. Well, we packed immediately and left the next morning for
Oklahoma City.
Q. When did you arrive at Oklahoma City?
A. Oh, well --
Q. In terms of Friday, Saturday?
A. That afternoon. Let me see. We found out Thursday. It
would have been Friday, early evening or afternoon.
Q. Did your kids -- did your children accompany you?
A. Yes. Yeah. We just took them with us.
Q. Now, where did Dawn and Betty live, your other two sisters?
A. Birmingham, Alabama.
Q. Did they come as well?
A. Yes. They flew in. They flew in.
Q. And how long did you remain in Oklahoma City?
A. Well, let me think of the events. I know through --
throughout the next week -- maybe it was like by Thursday, and
they had -- I think we stayed for like seven days. And the
children had been out of school all this time, and we -- I
think we were told that it would -- it could be several weeks
before they would really find everyone. We waited until the
time period where they felt like anyone that they found would
be alive still.
Cheryl Elliott - Direct
And so it was more just waiting for them to be found
that they would be dead. And we knew that we needed to get
home to get the children's homework; and because of the crowded
situation in my parents' home, we thought we could just stay
home and wait for news. And we stayed there just a couple
days, and we couldn't -- we couldn't take it. So we just went
on back and just stayed at a hotel and waited for the 17th day
till they were found.
Q. How many grandchildren did they have?
A. Nine.
Q. Four living children.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any count on the number of nieces and nephews
they had?
A. Oh -- there were a lot. My dad -- I didn't -- my dad had
eight brothers and sisters.
Q. Were some of them still alive?
A. Yes. One of his brothers had nine children.
Q. Okay.
A. And in fact, one of his brothers -- they -- because of all
their children, they didn't have much in the way of means and
financial means. I remember my dad went out at one time to
visit them and took their whole family to McDonald's, and they
had never done that before; so there were lots of nieces and
nephews.
Cheryl Elliott - Direct
Q. Lots of cousins?
A. Very large. A lot of cousins on my mother's side.
Q. Many people were impacted?
A. Oh, yes. We have a large family, but the span of friends
is -- was even larger.
Q. How many people turned out for your parents after they
died?
A. Well, we were told over 1400. We knew there would be a
lot, so we knew that the church that we were in couldn't hold
everybody. So we had -- we had to find the largest church in
Oklahoma City, and it was -- it was packed. I didn't -- we
were told over 1400. I didn't know exact count.
Q. Can you tell us briefly the impact that the loss of your
parents has had on you and your family?
There is a pitcher of water there and a cup. Why
don't you pour yourself a drink and take a moment.
A. Okay. I had a terrific relationship with my parents, and
we talked regularly; and I, you know -- I called my mother and
my father all the time just to talk. And there were times my
mom was at work and I called my dad because I knew he was
home -- he was retired -- and we'd visit. Sometimes he'd get
kind of lonely with her at work.
She often would call at 9:00 in the morning just
because she knew I'd be back from taking the kids to school and
she wanted to call me up before she started her day just to
Cheryl Elliott - Direct
start my day off right. That's the way they were. They always
were encouragers. That's another way I can describe them.
They didn't want you talking badly about anyone around them;
and if you did, they changed the subject. And it's like you --
Oh, you're not going to let me complain.
But, you know, in our family, I guess the best way I
can describe it is a tremendous void; and they were my -- my
husband's in-laws, but yet they were just like parents to him.
His parents are living, but my parents didn't have any sons and
they treated their four sons-in-law all like kings. I mean
they just loved them and they wanted them to call them Mom and
Dad, and the -- you know, my children have -- I've tried to
stay strong through this, but I think it's important for people
to be real and to work through their feelings and not just
suppress everything. You know, that's what you hear. You
can't go through your life just suppressing anger or hurt or
sadness or grief and you need to work through that.
And my parents -- I mean my children and my husband,
you know, we've all cried at different times; and my children
have not cried a lot, but I know there has been a lot of hurt.
And I've tried to -- when I try to get them to talk about it,
they don't want to talk about it. But I asked them to write a
statement just so that -- so that all the attorneys would know
from their hearts, you know, of just the impact on their life.
And that was very difficult for them. I think it was
Cheryl Elliott - Direct
good for them to do that. But in my son's letter, just -- just
the void that he was describing as well; that he doesn't want
to talk about, but it -- it's just a real void in our lives
because they were such a part of our lives. They -- they loved
our children and did so much for them. They took care of them
for a week during the summer so that my husband and I could go
off and have just a little time alone. And they would do
everything with them. They'd take them to Sam's and let them
buy a video, or take them for doughnuts every morning or
just -- there was always something special.
When they'd come see us, their luggage was gifts --
little "love gifts" is what they called them. And I had that
growing up. But they were always wrapped so my children would
have a gift to open each day, a love gift, so when they left,
they knew they were loved.
MR. RYAN: Thank you.
That's all, your Honor.
MS. RAMSEY: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down, and you're
excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: We're going to recess a little bit early.
But before doing so, I want to make a few comments to you,
members of the jury, in addition to what I usually say to you
regarding not discussing the case. I know that this has been a
difficult day for you. It has for everybody in the courtroom,
the kind of testimony that we have heard.
I'm not going to instruct you about the law now,
because that comes at the end. And I know you're interested in
that point, too; that is, how long will you be here in the
taking of this information. It will go into next week, but I
can't tell you with more specificity about that; but let me
just explain something about what we've been hearing today and
how you should consider it.
As I said, I will tell you much more about this when
it comes time to give you the instructions about the law. But
as you heard in Mr. Ryan's opening statement, one of the
aggravating factors that the Government relies on and that the
statute says can be taken into consideration in determining a
sentence in a case in which people have been killed as a result
of criminal conduct is that the jury may hear information about
the extent and scope of injury and loss suffered by the victims
and the victims' families.
Well, of course, the victims, those who were killed,
cannot speak for themselves; so you're -- we have testimony
from others, just as this last witness, about what their lives
were like. And then, of course, the victims' families: You've
heard a great deal about that.
Now, the law also says -- and you'll hear me talk
about this in greater detail -- that when you exercise your
decision in this case and answer the questions that will be put
to you but which I've described this morning in the
instructions, the very preliminary instructions, you're going
to have to make a decision based on reasoning, and it must be
free from the influence of passion, prejudice. What it has to
be and what you have to attempt to do is free it from the
influence of the human emotions that testimony like this
generates in us; and that is anger, rage, a number of other
emotions, including grief and sadness. People have been on
this stand sharing moments of grief with you.
We have tried through some rulings and also some
instructions and cautions to witnesses to try to be careful so
that you can hear the important parts, the more objective
aspects of loss and impact.
But you understand that these are people. And when
they come in here and testify and answer some of these
questions that counsel have put to them, it's only because they
are human that they come forward with some things that really
are not relevant.
And I mention some things like the last moments that
some of these women have had with their children or with their
husbands. They cried and you cried. But that's -- you know,
those most poignant moments in their lives, they want to tell
you about it; and it's hard for them to discuss the impact of
this loss without going into that.
But those images that have been created by that
testimony are not the things for you to consider. We're not
here to seek revenge on Timothy McVeigh. We're here to
consider these lives and what's happened to these people and
also, as you will hear later, his life.
And so, hard as it is, you must wait now and withhold
judgment. Don't overreact. And I know you are human beings,
too, and so am I. So is everybody here. And we have to be
careful and not let ourselves be overly stimulated by some of
the testimony that we've heard here and try to suppress some of
the emotional reaction that it's natural to have and to
consider this ultimately in this balancing that you will do of
aggravating and mitigating circumstances and determining a just
punishment in the case, considering all of it.
So I mention these things to you to try to emphasize
to you the importance. And there isn't -- you know, I can't
expect you to sit here and listen to some of this testimony and
not have some reaction to it. It's impossible to ask that of
you. But don't let that reaction become the measure of the
moral judgment that you will make. So I just give you this bit
of caution.
And I know it's been a hard day, and we're going to
recess now; and you will be free, of course, to go home. And
again, I ask you, just as I did during the trial, to let the
matter rest. Come back to us tomorrow, and we'll continue with
testimony and further information to be provided to you in the
morning beginning at 9:00.
So please put this matter at rest now. And you're, of
course, not to discuss the case with other jurors or with
anyone else. And of course, we continue to ask you on your
honor to avoid anything in any newspapers, magazines,
publications of any kind, radio, television, recognizing, just
as you did with respect to the earlier questions presented to
you in determining whether the evidence proved these crimes
were committed -- recognize you're going to have to make the
decision about sentencing on the basis of what you see and hear
in this room.
So please do that.
You're excused now till 9:00 tomorrow morning.
(Jury out at 4:48 p.m.)
THE COURT: Do we have the witnesses who need the voir
dire?
MR. HARTZLER: I believe so. Well, we have two that
are here today. I need -- if you'll give me a moment, I will
check and see if we need some time tomorrow morning, which I
think we will.
THE COURT: But if there is no objection, I'd like to
proceed with these folks now to make the necessary
determinations.
MR. HARTZLER: We'll call Todd McCarthy.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
MR. HARTZLER: While we're waiting, we'd like to
address the Court at some point today about scheduling, because
I think we've moved more rapidly than we expected.
THE COURT: All right. Well, let's talk to the
witnesses and then we'll talk scheduling.
MR. HARTZLER: Of course.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Todd McCarthy affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Todd Joseph McCarthy, M-C-C-A-R-T-H-Y.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
EXAMINATION
BY THE COURT:
Q. Mr. McCarthy, we're here without the jury, as you can tell.
A. Yes, your Honor.
Q. The trial is not really underway here, but we ask that you
come in separately so that we can ask you a few questions to
determine whether you will be a witness.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the point of this is that it's our understanding that
you observed some of the trial in this case.
Todd McCarthy - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
A. Yes, your Honor.
Q. Was that here in Denver?
A. No, sir. It was in Oklahoma City.
Q. All right. Would you tell us what parts of the trial you
saw there.
A. I attended one day of jury selection -- as a matter of
fact, I believe it probably was the first day of jury
selection -- and four subsequent days of the trial with three
in April and one in May, I believe was what I had, the first
week of May.
Q. And do you have a -- can you summarize for us the things
that you -- the testimony that you saw? I don't mean to go
through each witness, but the general subject matter.
A. Well, basically, what I remember, I remember being present
when Ms. Fortier gave some of her testimony and when
Ms. McVeigh gave some of her testimony. Other than that, it
basically was -- I remember an FBI agent who was a fingerprint
analyst. And other than that, I don't -- I don't really
remember too many particulars, sir.
Q. All right. And when you saw, you know -- I haven't seen
the image in Oklahoma City myself where we have a sort of what
I call "panoramic view."
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You see pretty much what the people here can see?
A. Yes, sir.
Todd McCarthy - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
Q. Except you don't see the jury, but you saw Mr. McVeigh.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Mr. McVeigh's counsel; and you heard Mr. McVeigh's
counsel cross-examine witnesses and make objections and so
forth?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now -- and you're aware of a ruling that I made earlier,
way early on in this case, that people who saw -- well, there
is a general rule of evidence that a witness cannot attend the
trial --
A. Correct.
Q. -- and hear the testimony of other witnesses. And I
extended that to the people who may appear, as you are, as to
what we call "victim-impact witnesses."
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then changed that as a result of some legislation that
came about as a result of an initiative from people from
Oklahoma.
A. Correct.
Q. And with respect to that -- I guess the question is this:
whether the fact that I made that ruling and you were excluded
at one time and now we're talking about possibly you testifying
here has any influence or effect on you now as a witness.
A. I understand.
No, sir. It hasn't. I guess the best way to
Todd McCarthy - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
summarize how I felt and how I reacted to attending the
trial -- and pardon me -- in Oklahoma City is it was more of an
educational experience. It was something I had never seen
before. I didn't have a deep desire to attend every day or
great lengths of the trial. I had never been able to go in and
observe a jury selection. I had never been able to witness a
federal trial or state trial for that matter.
It merely was an educational experience for me, and
I -- basically was the extent of what I took from it.
Q. And as you saw Mr. McVeigh and saw his lawyers, did you get
angry about anything with respect to their attitude or conduct
or any --
A. No. I thought in viewing them both sides remained very
professional all the way around, the defense and the
prosecution. There wasn't anything happening to really upset
me. It was done in a very professional form.
THE COURT: Mr. Goelman, what's the testimony going to
be here? What's the --
MR. GOELMAN: The impact that the loss of
Mr. McCarthy's father has had on Mr. McCarthy and his immediate
family.
BY THE COURT:
Q. All right. And can you tell us whether anything that you
saw or heard from observing the days of trial that you saw
would affect your testimony.
Todd McCarthy - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
A. No, sir, I don't believe it would.
Q. Another way to ask that is can you tell us your testimony
would be the same here on the things that you're going to be
asked about as if you had never seen --
A. Without a doubt, your Honor.
Q. -- those proceedings? Okay.
MR. GOELMAN: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: Do you have any, Mr. Burr, or any from
defense?
MS. WELCH: We have no questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, we'll have you back and testify
tomorrow, I assume; and of course, we'll give you the oath
again, even though you've taken an oath here. But the jury
didn't see you do so, and the jury is entitled to see all
aspects of a witness' testimony --
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: -- including the taking of the oath.
Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.
MR. HARTZLER: Susan Urbach.
THE COURT: All right. And what will her testimony be
about, if you could tell me before she comes?
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, she'll talk about her
injuries and the impact of her injuries and the loss of her
friends and her surroundings have had on her life.
THE COURT: Where was she?
MS. WILKINSON: She was in the Water -- I mean in the
Journal Record Building.
THE COURT: Please come in and take the oath, if you
will.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand.
(Susan Urbach affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Susan Urbach, U-R-B-A-C-H.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
EXAMINATION
BY THE COURT:
Q. Ms. Urbach, we're here without the jury at this time; and
the reason that you're here without the jury is that under a
ruling that I made in connection with this case, we'll have to
ask you some questions, because it's my understanding that you
have seen some of the trial.
A. That's correct, uh-huh.
Q. And tell us, first, what you've seen and where it was.
A. I have been here one week in the courtroom, and then I have
been at closed-circuit a number of afternoons in Oklahoma City.
Q. About how many?
A. Let's see. The trial has been going four weeks?
Susan Urbach - Examination (Out of the Presence of the jury)
Q. You tell me.
A. Well, it's been going so fast, sir.
Q. Yes --
A. Let's see. One week here, and then probably about maybe 15
afternoons.
Q. Okay. A good part of the trial?
A. A good part, yes, sir.
Q. What week were you here? Was that the first week?
A. The first week. Not for opening, but for the first full
week.
Q. And were you here, or did you see any of the things --
well, were you here in Denver during any of the pretrial?
A. No, sir.
Q. Motion hearings and so forth?
A. No.
Q. And you remember a ruling that I made before the trial
started --
A. Yes.
Q. -- that extended this what we call the "sequestration of
witnesses" to persons who would come in not during the trial
but in this stage of the case, in what we call "victim-impact
witnesses."
It's my understanding you were injured.
A. That is correct.
Q. And also had friends in the building.
Susan Urbach - Examination (Out of the Presence of the jury)
A. That's correct.
Q. And that you're going to be asked as a witness here about
your injuries.
A. Correct.
Q. And also about the effects of the loss of others.
A. Yes.
Q. Friends of yours.
A. Yes.
Q. And this was in the Journal Record Building?
A. That's correct. I was in the Journal Record Building.
Q. You were?
A. I was, yes.
Q. You had friends in the Murrah Building?
A. Acquaintances, yes.
Q. Okay. Well, the point of your being here now is to
determine whether your testimony is in some way influenced by
anything that you saw and heard during the trial. And of
course, you saw quite a few things. I'm not going to go over
all of the witnesses you apparently have seen, but you saw
Mr. McVeigh.
A. Yes.
Q. And his counsel.
A. Yes.
Q. And also in the course of the taking of the testimony,
there have been objections made, cross-examination.
Susan Urbach - Examination (Out of the Presence of the jury)
A. Yes.
Q. Things done that you could or anyone could interpret as
being efforts to obstruct the Government's efforts to prove the
case; right?
A. Right.
Q. Any of that affect you in some way, where you had a
reaction that you thought it was inappropriate or you got angry
about it?
A. Actually, sir, I've had a very positive experience in the
courtroom. It's been very, very positive to watch, to hear the
evidence, to hear the testimony, and to know more about the
law.
Q. Well, you understand the concern that I had --
A. Yes.
Q. -- is that people would be influenced by what they saw and
have -- then when they talk here about the impact of the injury
and the event on them, can be influenced not by just that alone
but also anger at the lawyers, anger at Mr. McVeigh, anger at
me --
A. Sure.
Q. -- with respect to rulings I've made.
All those things are possible.
A. Sure.
Q. I guess what we're asking of you is do you have any
feelings like that?
Susan Urbach - Examination (Out of the Presence of the jury)
A. No, sir.
Q. And the real question is: If you hadn't seen any of the
trial, been brought in here to testify about the things that
you know you're going to be testifying about, would it be any
different than what it's going to be now, having seen the
trial?
A. No. It's not going to be any different.
Q. You can assure us of that?
A. Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Wilkinson?
MS. WILKINSON: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Burr?
I don't know if you have seen Mr. Burr in the course
of the trial. He's one of the counsel for Mr. McVeigh.
THE WITNESS: I think I've seen him along the back
there somewhere.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BURR:
Q. The first day you were here was April 28? Does that sound
right to you?
A. Yes.
Q. And in this courtroom.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember hearing the testimony of -- I think -- of
Firefighter Danny Atchley?
Susan Urbach - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury)
A. I was here for, I guess, just the last part of his
testimony. I believe he started on the Friday before and then
finished up, yes.
Q. Was that memorable testimony? Do you remember some of the
images he talked about and the stories he talked about
concerning the rescue?
A. A little bit, yes.
Q. How did you feel during that testimony?
A. Well, of course, being out on the street, what he's talking
about is not particularly different from either things that
I've seen or stories that I've heard prior to the trial.
Q. Did his testimony sort of make you relive that day?
A. Oh, I would say in looking -- there was one picture that
was shown, and it just reminded me of a -- it was a picture of
a small child who was black, and there were some children who
were -- who were carried near to me where I was lying in the
street; so, you know, I thought about that, certainly.
Q. Did you have a hard time that day --
A. No, sir.
Q. -- hearing that?
Were you present with other persons who were victims
as well that day in the courtroom?
A. Yes. It was part of the lottery system.
Q. Did you talk about the testimony that day with other
people?
Susan Urbach - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury)
A. Sure.
Q. So that week, the week of the 28th, was the week that you
were here --
A. Yes.
Q. -- in Denver.
Have you -- have you had any particular distress as a
result of knowing about the trial and observing what was going
on, any greater stress than you had before the trial started?
A. Actually, it's quite the opposite. I've had very, very
positive experience being able to see the evidence and hear the
testimonies.
Q. Do you know Helena Garrett, who works in the Journal Record
Building, as well?
A. No, I do not.
MR. BURR: No other questions, your Honor. Thank you
very much.
THE COURT: Well, you'll be back tomorrow to testify,
presumably will be called tomorrow; and we'll have the jury
here then and hear your testimony. And we'll also swear you
again, because the jury is entitled to see and hear each
witness be sworn, how they react to that, take the stand, and
so forth, as part of the demeanor and manner of the witness
that we talked about.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE COURT: Thank you very much. You're excused for
now.
All right. Where are we on scheduling?
MR. HARTZLER: Well, we'd like to have an opportunity
to caucus this evening, your Honor --
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HARTZLER: -- and make some decisions; but I think
that it's highly likely we will rest tomorrow afternoon
sometime.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. HARTZLER: Just for your information, we have one
possible witness that needs to be -- at least one that needs
voir dire tomorrow morning and possibly three; but obviously
that will depend on the results of our caucus, how many we
would actually have.
THE COURT: Well, we'd better convene at 8:30 then, so
one or three, we can try to get them in.
Mr. Jones?
MR. JONES: Your Honor, you will recall the motion
that I made yesterday with respect to a brief recess; and I
wonder if the Court has thought anything more about that,
because it depends upon -- it doesn't depend upon, but it helps
us in planning on when people are to be here, because we have
anticipated, as the Court knows -- anticipated that the
Government's case would take three days. So we weren't going
to ask -- renew our request since we have the weekend; but
we've told these people to be prepared to be put on, and we
don't want to bring people in early and have them wait around
the hotel lobby for four or five days before testifying. So we
would -- if the Court could give us some guidance in that, it
would help us in planning.
THE COURT: Well, I'd like to get your opening
statement in Friday, if they rest tomorrow; and if you can
bring one or two of the witnesses, at any rate -- I won't make
you go the full day, if you can't get enough to go the full
day.
MR. JONES: We may be able to do that easily. We'll
caucus tonight, too. They don't invite us to our (sic)
caucuses.
THE COURT: Well, I think my sense is that it would be
better to go forward on Friday than to recess for three days;
so perhaps you can get in touch with Mr. Jones yet this
evening, give him information about your planning.
MR. HARTZLER: We will do that. I think under
virtually all circumstances, we're going to try like crazy to
rest tomorrow afternoon.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. JONES: And I assume that should the spirit move
us that the Court's indication today is without prejudice to
our renewing tomorrow.
THE COURT: Right. You can always make -- I'll always
let you make your record.
All right. 8:30 tomorrow morning.
(Recess at 5:18 p.m.)
* * * * *
INDEX
Item Page
WITNESSES
Mathilda Westberry
Direct Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
David Florence
Direct Examination by Ms. Behenna
Teresa Brown
Direct Examination by Ms. Behenna
Sharon Medearis
Direct Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Susan Walton
Direct Examination by Mr. Hartzler
Eric Thompson
Direct Examination by Ms. Behenna
Dora Reyes
Direct Examination by Mr. Mendeloff
Pamela Whicher
Direct Examination by Mr. Mackey
Kathleen Treanor
Direct Examination by Ms. Behenna
WITNESSES (continued)
Laura Kennedy
Direct Examination by Mr. Ryan
Cheryl Elliott
Direct Examination by Mr. Ryan
Todd McCarthy
Examination by The Court
Susan Urbach
Examination by The Court
Cross-examination by Mr. Burr
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS
Exhibit Offered Received Refused Reserved Withdrawn
1016 11919 11919
1129A 11882 11882
1208C 11955 11955
1453 11938 11938
1462 11921 11921
1467 11877 11877
1477 11977 11978
1485 11888 11888
1489 11953 11953
1536 11990 11990
* * * * *
REPORTERS' CERTIFICATE
We certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from
the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. Dated
at Denver, Colorado, this 4th day of June, 1997.
_______________________________
Paul Zuckerman
_______________________________
Kara Spitler