IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                 FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
 Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
     Plaintiff,
 vs.
 TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH,
     Defendant.
 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
                      REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
                 (Trial to Jury - Volume 132)
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
         Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 8:30 a.m., on the 4th day of June,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.







 Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
  Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
    P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
                          APPEARANCES
         PATRICK M. RYAN, United States Attorney for the
Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400,
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
         JOSEPH H. HARTZLER, SEAN CONNELLY, LARRY A. MACKEY,
BETH WILKINSON, SCOTT MENDELOFF, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, AITAN
GOELMAN, and VICKI BEHENNA, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
         STEPHEN JONES, ROBERT NIGH, JR., RICHARD BURR, and
RANDALL COYNE, Attorneys at Law, Jones, Wyatt & Roberts, 999
18th Street, Suite 2460, Denver, Colorado, 80202; MANDY WELCH,
Attorney at Law, 412 Main, Suite 1150, Houston, Texas, 77002;
CHERYL A. RAMSEY, Attorney at Law, Szlichta and Ramsey, 8 Main
Place, Post Office Box 1206, Stillwater, Oklahoma, 74076, and
CHRISTOPHER L. TRITICO, Attorney at Law, Essmyer, Tritico &
Clary, 4300 Scotland, Houston, Texas, 77007, appearing for
Defendant McVeigh.
                         *  *  *  *  *
                          PROCEEDINGS
    (In open court at 8:31 a.m.)
         THE COURT:  Be seated, please.
         Good morning.
         We are convened earlier here than -- without the jury
for purposes of determining the question of whether two
witnesses have been adversely influenced by observation of
portions of the trial.  Before we do that, though, I have a
letter from the Government here regarding the preliminary
instructions and raising a legal question concerning the
next-to-the-last paragraph on the issue of reasonable doubt.
I'm going to delete the paragraph.  I'm not necessarily
agreeing with the Government's position, but I think there's a
legal issue that needs to be decided, and I'm not prepared to
decide it at this time in this case.
         MR. BURR:  Your Honor, that's all right with us.  We
have not had time, either.  We just got this before we came
over here.
         THE COURT:  And of course this in part relies on the
Chandler decision, which is a case much debated since it came
down; so without making the ruling with respect to the burden
of proof there, I will simply delete that paragraph.  And we'll
deal with that legal issue before of course final instructions.
         Then as I understand it, there are two stipulations
here to be read at some point, and I want to -- when will these
stipulations come up?  When do you expect them to be read?
         MR. HARTZLER:  The one relating to the Government's
evidence doesn't need to be read today.
         THE COURT:  Okay.
         MR. HARTZLER:  I think it's unlikely we'll present any
of that evidence.
         THE COURT:  And the next one is the defense.
         MR. BURR:  Yes, near the end of the case with the
defense.
         THE COURT:  I need to clear these stipulations with
Mr. McVeigh, and he has to read them and discuss them.  So we
won't be dealing with them now, and you let me know when you're
ready on those.
         MR. HARTZLER:  I may have been mistaken, I'm sorry.
The paragraph 4 relates to an exhibit that could possibly come
into evidence today; so if I may, I'll just advise the Court --
         THE COURT:  Right.
         MR. HARTZLER:  -- you need to address it now.
         THE COURT:  We need to give defense counsel
opportunity to review it and Mr. McVeigh and Mr. McVeigh to
discuss it with counsel.  So maybe that can be done during the
noon recess.
         MR. HARTZLER:  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  Now, I want to make clear and I'm sure
everybody already recognizes it, but the record should show
that we're going to continue the order sequestering witnesses
during this phase of the case as well as has previously been
the rule during the trial.
         With that, I think we're prepared to provide the
opportunity to voir dire these witnesses if someone will
identify who they are and what they're expected to testify
about and tell us what the parts of the trial they have seen.
         Mr. Mackey, are you going to --
         MR. MACKEY:  I can begin on behalf of the witness
Diane Leonard.
         THE COURT:  Leonard.
         MR. MACKEY:  L-E-O-N-A-R-D.  Miss Leonard was married
to Don Leonard, who was a Secret Service agent killed in the
bombing.  She would testify about Mr. Leonard's career with the
Secret Service that spanned more than 24 years, some of his
assignments and accomplishments.  She would describe the events
surrounding April 19 and her first awareness of the bombing and
learning of her husband's death, and then she would describe
the impact of that loss on herself and three sons that she and
Mr. Leonard raised.  The three sons are from a previous
marriage, but they were an active part of their family unit.
         THE COURT:  What parts of the trial did she observe?
         MR. MACKEY:  Of all the witnesses, your Honor, that
have seen portions of the trial proceedings, she has seen the
most.  It may well have been virtually all of the trial.  She
has been, I know, to Denver on one occasion and has been in
this courtroom and on other occasions watched the
closed-circuit telecast in Oklahoma City.
         I would expect when asked that she would assure the
Court that that observation does not impact or influence the
way she would describe her testimony.
         THE COURT:  All right.  Who is the other one?
         MS. BEHENNA:  The other witness, your Honor, is Dora
Reyes.  Dora Reyes had a son and a husband who both worked for
HUD.  She will talk about her search for her husband and her
son.  Her son is injured as a result of falling, I believe,
four floors from the 7th floor to the basement level.  She'll
talk about the search for her husband.  Her husband, Tony
Reyes, is killed in the building.  She'll talk about the impact
upon her life that event has had as well as to define Tony
Reyes' loss to the community.  He was very involved in the
Hispanic community in Oklahoma City, and she'll give some
information about that.  Dora Reyes has watched one day of the
trial.  It's my understanding that was closing arguments, your
Honor.
         THE COURT:  Here?  Was she here?
         MS. BEHENNA:  She was at the closed-circuit TV in
Oklahoma City.
         THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  Well, let's start with
Ms. Leonard.
         I suggest what we do -- go ahead -- what we do is --
Mr. Mackey, are you going to do the direct of this witness?
         MR. MACKEY:  Yes, I am, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Establish what you've just established
with me with respect to what she has seen and so forth, and
then we'll voir dire.
         MR. MACKEY:  And I'll turn it over.
         THE COURT:  Yes.
         MR. MACKEY:  Yes, sir.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right
hand, please.
    (Diane Leonard affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  Diane Leonard, L-E-O-N-A-R-D.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  Ms. Leonard, let me just explain to you.
We're here without the jury at this time.  The purpose of this
having you come in before we resume with the hearing is to ask
questions of you so that I can determine whether you will be
permitted to testify.
         THE WITNESS:  I understand.
         THE COURT:  And these questions are going to relate to
whatever influence there might have been or whatever effect on
your testimony might result from your having seen most or all
of the trial.  So that's why we're here.
         THE WITNESS:  Okay.
         THE COURT:  And Mr. Mackey, I'm sure you know --
         THE WITNESS:  Yes.
         THE COURT:  -- will ask you some preliminary
questions.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q.  Good morning, Miss Leonard.
A.  Good morning.
Q.  Tell the Judge where you reside.
A.  I reside in Edmond, Oklahoma, which is a suburb of Oklahoma
City.
Q.  And are you the widow of Don Leonard, former Secret Service
agent?
A.  Yes, I am.
Q.  Who was killed in the bombing in April of '95.
A.  That's correct.
Q.  Since the bombing, Miss Leonard, have you had occasion to
follow the trial proceedings that have just recently concluded?
A.  Yes, I have.
Q.  And would you outline for his Honor precisely what it is
that you saw, on how many occasions you went to Denver and how
many occasions you watched closed-circuit TV?
A.  I came to Denver during the pretrial hearing when you made
the ruling about impact witnesses.  I was at every pretrial
hearing prior to that time, and I attended every day of
testimony.  There were a couple of days I had appointments, and
I had to leave; but I was in the courtroom -- in either this
courtroom or closed-circuit -- every day during testimony.  I



    Diane Leonard - Direct (Out of the presence of the jury)
was in this courtroom only one week.  Prior to today.
         THE COURT:  Which week was that?
         THE WITNESS:  Week 2.
         THE COURT:  Of the taking of testimony?
         THE WITNESS:  Right.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q.  And on other occasions, then, did you attend the
closed-circuit telecast in Oklahoma City?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  Have you been mindful of his Honor's ruling concerning
potential testimony offered by impact witnesses, vis-a-vis the
question of how it might influence what you would say to this
jury?
A.  I've been very mindful of that.  However, I had such a
strong need to understand what had happened, and I felt like my
life has been like a puzzle; and only the border was there.
The interior pieces were scattered.  And it's been very helpful
for me to hear what occurred, to be able to put those pieces
into place.
Q.  Miss Leonard, with those observations of trial both here in
Denver and in Oklahoma City, can you assure the Court that you
can deliver the testimony to the jury about the facts of Don
Leonard's life without being unduly influenced by what you've
seen in this trial proceeding?
A.  Absolutely.



    Diane Leonard - Direct (Out of the presence of the jury)
Q.  And can you assure his Honor that you can do in similar
regard a description of the impact on your life and the family
members?
A.  The impact has been felt for a long time.  Yes, I can.
         MR. MACKEY:  Is that sufficient, your Honor?
         THE COURT:  I'll ask a couple of questions and then
defense counsel may.
                          EXAMINATION
BY THE COURT:
Q.  Understand you're not on trial here or in any way is there
some suggestion that you acted inappropriately by observing the
trial.  What we're looking for is what -- whether your
observations of the trial and your emotional reaction and all
the other type of reactions, intellectually, too, that you may
have had from what you've seen and heard with respect to the
trial might affect your testimony.  So we're trying to compare
what you would be testifying about and how you would be
testifying if you hadn't seen the trial as compared with the
fact that you have.
A.  All right.
Q.  So let me just ask you a couple of questions, and please
recognize that I'm not asking these in any accusatory way.  But
it is human nature to react to some things that happen at a
trial, including the judge.  I mean I'm not unmindful that my
first ruling when you were present in the courtroom when I made



Diane Leonard - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
it, apparently, probably shocked and angered you and you had
some reaction to that.  I understand that.  And just because
we're a few feet from each other and I'm asking you these
questions, I don't want you to be hesitant about telling me
honestly how you felt about that.
A.  I was very disappointed in that ruling, obviously, because
from April 19, 1995, I wanted to learn everything I could about
what had happened.  There have been lots of rulings that you've
made that a lot of people were not happy with, but I could find
something positive, long range, about each of those rulings,
except this one; and I couldn't find a long-range positive to
that one, so that's why it did disturb me.  Yes, it did.
Q.  All right.  Well, one of the reactions, I suppose, that you
could have from that -- and you know the background.  The
reason that you're here now is because of the efforts by many
to enact legislation that required me to consider --
A.  Right.
Q.  -- the testimony of victims who had seen the trial, and
that's why you're here.
A.  Right.
Q.  And one of the things, I suppose, that's fair to ask you is
whether you have the view now that, Okay, I want to get in
there -- and I'm paraphrasing, very crudely -- but I want to
get in there and tell them what I think and this Judge has
learned his lesson or something like that.



Diane Leonard - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
A.  No, I don't feel that way at all.  I just want to -- to
explain who Don was and the impact this crime has had on my
life, and the impact came when I saw the building and when I
was informed of my husband's body had been found and when I saw
him.
Q.  And then of course in this trial, you've seen Mr. McVeigh?
A.  Yes, I have.
Q.  And I'm aware that seeing a person accused and now
convicted of the crime that lost -- caused your husband's
death, you can certainly have reactions about him, and I'm not
asking you to detail those.  I'm just asking you whether you
can honestly tell us whether you can separate out any anger or
feeling that you need to get revenge or anything like that from
your ability to testify truthfully as to the matters that
you're going to be asked.
A.  I don't really understand this, but I can honestly tell you
that I have never felt anger toward Mr. McVeigh -- a few days,
the first few days after this occurred, I had some general
anger.  The first time I saw him on TV, I did not get angry.  I
decided early on that it took a lot of energy to be angry, and
I had too many other place -- I didn't have that much energy
left; and what I had left, I had too many other places to put
it.  So I've directed my energy in different directions other
than anger.
Q.  And I'm just going to add to that, of course, the concern



Diane Leonard - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
that we might have that you feel anger to the lawyers, about
the lawyers who've been representing Mr. McVeigh because that,
too, is a possible human reaction, that these people have
raised objections, have made arguments in his favor, have
opposed the Government's case and the evidence.  Tell us what
your reaction to that has been and whether that may influence
you as a witness.
A.  I can honestly say that I felt more anger toward things
that the defense said prior to the trial.
Q.  Some of the motions before trial you're talking about?
A.  Oh, some of the comments in the media were difficult to
hear.  But when I went in the closed-circuit or this courtroom
each day, I've tried to approach this whole thing the way my
husband would have:  He -- when there was an occurrence, he
would investigate, he would get all the information he could,
and then continue from there.  And I've just been trying to do
the same thing.  And when I come in the courtroom, I put on my
cognitive hat rather than my emotional one, and I've just
really, truly been trying to learn what occurred so I can get
this puzzle together and go on to the next one.
Q.  You understand that's why you're a witness here, to tell
the jury what occurred, to give them information so that they
can make the very difficult decision that this jury is going to
be required to make.
A.  Right.



Diane Leonard - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
Q.  And that is what the sentence should be.  And they have to
make that as a moral judgment, and they have to make it free
from any of the passions that we feel and the emotions that we
feel.
A.  Right.  I understand.
Q.  All right.
         THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Nigh -- who, Mr. Nigh?
         MR. NIGH:  Yes, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  You're going to ask questions of
Ms. Leonard.
         You know that Mr. Nigh is one of the attorneys for
Mr. McVeigh.
                       CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NIGH:
Q.  Good morning, Miss Leonard.
A.  Good morning.
Q.  As I understood what you were telling Mr. Mackey when he
was asking you questions, you've essentially seen almost all of
the trial?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Including the testimony of rescue workers, Mr. Avera, for
example, and things like, did you see that?
A.  Yes, sir, I believe I did.
Q.  About the events on the 19th.
A.  Yes.



   Diane Leonard - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury)
Q.  And if I understood, also, one of the things that you will
offer testimony about is what happened with you on the 19th?
A.  That's correct.
Q.  And you traveled to Oklahoma City on the 19th?
A.  That's correct.
Q.  Did you see some of the same sights when you were there
personally that you have seen in the form of exhibits when the
Government was presenting its case about what happened?
A.  What is --
Q.  Pictures of the building or the streets or --
A.  I was there that day.
Q.  And did you see some pictures during the Government's case
which showed some of the same scenes?
A.  Most of those things I think were on when we were at
closed-circuit, and a lot of things that were shown in the
courtroom were difficult to see there, but I did of course hear
all the testimony.
Q.  Did that help you to recall some of the things that had
happened with you on the 19th, some of the sights and sounds
and emotions that you felt?
A.  That's not where my mind was.  I was concentrating on each
thing that each person was saying and trying to put an order to
this -- to this tragedy in my mind.
Q.  And you've described that as pieces of a puzzle --
A.  Right.



   Diane Leonard - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury)
Q.  -- that you tried to put together.
         I also understand that one of the things that you will
discuss or testify about will be the impact that this has had
upon your life?
A.  True.
Q.  And the life of your family?
A.  Right.
Q.  Has being present in the -- during the descriptions of
these events helped you to sort through some of that, to figure
out what impact that it has had upon your life?
A.  Absolutely not.  The impact occurred in 1995, and I have
been on a quest for answers ever since; and I have asked a lot
of questions along the way, a lot of the -- that type thing
that I heard I had learned a lot about before.  I've talked to
a lot of people and tried to learn as much as I could about
what happened.
Q.  But the testimony didn't help you sort through any of that?
A.  It helps me put the pieces of this puzzle into place, to
understand what occurred.
Q.  Ms. Leonard, in terms of what you intend to say about the
impact upon your life, did you ever have occasion to write that
out and try to put that on paper about what the impact was or
how you would express the impact?
A.  I have not written down what I will say, no.  There have
been times -- I've kept a journal, and I write thoughts, but I



   Diane Leonard - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury)
have not written my impact testimony down.
Q.  Has your journal covered what you feel the impact to be?
A.  My journal mostly covered what was going on each day.  It
was more a -- it's more a cognitive journal than an emotional
journal.
Q.  Has that been something that you've kept, including during
the time that you were watching the trial?
A.  I didn't do it during the trial.  I've not done it for
several months.  I did it like the first year, I think, about
the first year.
Q.  I believe that you said that you were going to offer
testimony about your husband's service as a Secret Service
agent --
A.  Correct.
Q.  -- and some of his accomplishments.
         And the events that you experienced and observed on
April the 19th.  Is that right?
A.  The events -- I'm sorry, can you repeat --
Q.  What happened when you came to Oklahoma City on April 19,
you're going to describe that as well?
A.  I assume so.
Q.  And then the impact of the loss of your husband upon
yourself and the children?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Are there any other areas that you intend to offer



   Diane Leonard - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury)
testimony about?
A.  Not that I'm aware of.
         MR. NIGH:  Thank you, your Honor, that's all the
questions I have.
         Thank you, Ms. Leonard.
         THE COURT:  Mr. Mackey.
                     REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q.  Just one point of clarification for the record,
Mrs. Leonard.  You insisted, did you not, to observe your
husband's body?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  And you understand in our pretrial discussion that is not a
question that I intend to ask you and you should not interpret
any question by the defense to describe what condition you saw
your husband's body in?  You understand that?
A.  Correct.
Q.  That's a pledge that you can make to this court?
A.  Right.
Q.  And you can deliver your testimony without describing that
event?
A.  I can absolutely.
         MR. MACKEY:  Thank you, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Thank you.
         THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  Now, when you come back in -- we'll
discuss this.  I have to give the opportunity for objections to
be made and so forth, and I'll make that determination.  If you
come back as a witness, you'll be taking the oath again.  It's
just that a part of testifying is for the jury to see the
witness take the oath and everything about the person
testifying.
         You understand that from having seen the trial.
         THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
         THE COURT:  All right.  You can step down, and we'll
get Miss Reyes.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right
hand, please.
    (Dora Reyes affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  Dora Reyes, R-E-Y-E-S.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
                          EXAMINATION
BY THE COURT:
Q.  Miss Reyes, you're here without the jury present, and the
reason is that I've asked that you come in ahead of time so
that we can ask you a few questions because Miss Behenna has
explained to us that -- generally what you're going to be asked



   Dora Reyes - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
questions about and testimony concerning your husband and
identified that the information that you saw one day of the
trial.
A.  I went to the -- last Thursday to the summation.
Q.  Closing arguments, yes.
A.  And Friday to the jury instruction.
Q.  All right.  Now, how about before the trial, did you see
any of the pretrial motions and so forth?
A.  Yes, in Oklahoma City, for the change of venue.  And about
a year ago here.  I was here the day that we had to leave at
noon because if we were going to be impact witnesses, we
couldn't come back.
Q.  So you were here the day that I made the ruling about the
witnesses?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Not a good day for you and others, I'm sure.
         And understand that you're not being accused of
anything; we're just trying to sort out whether any of your
experience or observations in connection with the trial could
influence the testimony that you're expected to give here.  So
that's why you've been brought in ahead of time so that we
could ask you a few questions.
         Miss Behenna.
         MS. BEHENNA:  Thank you, your Honor.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION



    Dora Reyes - Direct (Out of the presence of the jury)
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q.  Miss Reyes, where do you live?
A.  Edmond, Oklahoma.
Q.  And you stated in response to the Judge's questions that
you had seen some things, pretrial motions and hearings.
         You also observed none of the trial testimony; is that
right?
A.  None.
Q.  Didn't hear about -- what any of the witnesses had to say
in this case?
A.  No, I did not.
Q.  Your only observation of this trial once it began on
March 31, would it have been the summation?
A.  Right.
Q.  And then the instructions given by the Judge to the jury?
A.  Right.
Q.  Was there anything about what you observed in the pretrial
hearings that would cause you to change your testimony about
the impact this crime has had upon you?
A.  My testimony has nothing to do with the trial.  It has to
do with the impact on my life and how my life is going since
the bombing.
Q.  And your observation of the summation, the closing
arguments, did any of that cause you to change your testimony?
A.  No.



    Dora Reyes - Direct (Out of the presence of the jury)
Q.  And the same question, and I guess the same response with
regard to watching the instructions that you watched on Friday?
A.  That's correct.

         MS. BEHENNA:  Your Honor, I believe that's all I have.
         THE COURT:  All right.
                          EXAMINATION
BY THE COURT:
Q.  Well, I'm sure you remember the day that I made the ruling
here in court; that is, that the witnesses -- and you were here
in the morning and then not in the afternoon.  You know, I
don't want to be unfair to you here.  We're just a little ways
apart, and I'm wearing a black robe and you're not.  But you
got angry about that, I'm sure, at the time.
A.  I don't think it was anger as much as a feeling of
frustration.
Q.  Puzzlement as to why this would be, doesn't seem reasonable
to you?
A.  But I was willing to go through the process as it had to be
done.
Q.  And then of course you're here now because Congress made a
change in the law and perhaps you were a part of that; I'm not
asking you, you know, whether you had any initiative in that
regard or anything.  All I want to know is there anything about
what you observed or this court's previous ruling that -- and
I'm asking you to just honestly tell us what's in your mind and



   Dora Reyes - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
heart -- that now that you may have the chance to come in here
to testify, that your testimony would be different if that
hadn't happened?
A.  No, it will not be different.
Q.  You know, a sort of "Get back at you, Judge," type thing?
A.  No.
Q.  I have to ask you these questions --
A.  That's fine.
Q.  -- but I didn't suspect that it was the case.
         Also you saw Mr. McVeigh in the pretrial hearing, and
you also saw him on closed-circuit television as you saw this
whole scene.  Anything about observing Mr. McVeigh in court or
any of his reactions that you can say influences you in any
way?
         Can you keep all of that out of any testimony you're
asked to give?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And how about his lawyers:  I'm sure you may have strongly
disagreed with closing argument made by lawyers and some of
their motions and can look at, well, these lawyers have tried
everything they can to derail or obstruct the Government's
case.  These are things that could occur.  I simply want to ask
you honestly to tell us whether anything about the lawyers'
conduct in the defense of Mr. McVeigh has any influence on the
testimony that you're expected to give.



   Dora Reyes - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
A.  None at all.
Q.  Well, what I really want to know is -- and it's not an easy
question -- would your testimony be the same today as it would
be if you never had seen any of the case?
A.  My testimony will not change.  It will be the same.
         THE COURT:  Mr. Burr, do you have some questions?
                       CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BURR:
Q.  Good morning.  My name is Dick Burr.  I'm one of the
lawyers representing Mr. McVeigh.
         I on occasion had some role in arguing about whether
victim-impact witnesses could be in the courtroom.  Were you
present for any of those times that you remember?
A.  I don't.
Q.  Did you have -- around the time that the ruling was made
that allowed -- that had victim-impact witnesses excluded, I
think you said you had not really anger but a feeling of
frustration.  Did you have a sense of who was responsible for
that; did you sort of feel somebody was to blame for that?
A.  No.
Q.  Is it -- I was a little unclear about how many times you'd
actually been in this courtroom.  Was it just that one day when
the ruling was made?
A.  I keep thinking I came in May and in June.  I may have been
here one day in May.



      Dora Reyes - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury)
Q.  And you think that was before the ruling was made?
A.  I think so.
Q.  Do you remember the feeling that you had the first time you
saw Mr. McVeigh in the courtroom?
A.  I didn't feel anything.
Q.  Nothing at all?
         Turning to the day of the closing arguments, I believe
you were at the courtroom in Oklahoma City?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  Or the closed-circuit TV courtroom?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  Were you there for the entire day?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Now, in that courtroom, are there monitors -- are there
monitors like this where you can see exhibits, or do you just
see this whole courtroom?
A.  We just had a big-screen TV sort of thing.
Q.  And the only thing on there is the picture of what's going
on in here?
A.  Right.
Q.  If exhibits were shown to the jury, did you -- could you
see them in that courtroom?
A.  I think some things were shown, but they were very bad
pictures.
Q.  Bad in the sense that you could not see them?



      Dora Reyes - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury)
A.  You couldn't see.
Q.  Can you tell us what your thoughts and feelings were as
Mr. Mackey argued the case against Mr. Veigh -- McVeigh, in
closing argument?
A.  I was just listening to what I consider facts as presented.
I just wanted to listen to the summation.
Q.  Did you at any time kind of relive the events of April the
19th and the days thereafter during the argument?
A.  Towards the end.
Q.  Can you tell us about that?
A.  Just as has happened so much in the last two years,
emotions just well up inside you for your loss, is all I can
explain.
Q.  Did you cry?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Did you talk to people after that day about the feelings
that you had had during that day?
A.  Not really, no.
Q.  Share any of these thoughts with your children?
         Were either of your children there with you that day?
A.  No.
         MR. BURR:  No other questions, your Honor.
         Thank you, Miss Reyes.
         MS. BEHENNA:  Nothing further.
         THE COURT:  All right.  Miss Reyes, we'll ask you to
step out now.  We have to discuss this, give some legal
argument about it, and then if you come back as a witness,
we'll be asking you to take the oath again; and that's simply
because the jury should see each witness take the oath.  That's
a part of evaluating the testimony of the jury -- of the
witness by the jury.
         And of course what we're trying to do here is to make
sure that the jurors get information that's relevant to the
hard decision they have to make and that this information which
is from victims -- which is what you're classified as for this
purpose -- is, you know, not influenced in any way by any
emotional reaction that you've had to the trial.  You
understand?
         THE WITNESS:  Yes.
         THE COURT:  'Cause we're trying to have this jury
decide on the basis of information, not on the basis of
emotion.  And I'm sure you agree that that's what we should
have.
         Okay.
         THE WITNESS:  Yes.
         THE COURT:  Thank you.  You may step down.
         Well, counsel for the defendant, do you have any
objections to these witnesses?
         Mr. Nigh.
         MR. NIGH:  Yes, your Honor, it's very brief.
         THE COURT:  All right.  You can do it from there,
certainly.
      DEFENDANT'S ARGUMENT ON MOTION TO EXCLUDE WITNESSES
         MR. NIGH:  We would object to the testimony of both of
them, in that the observations of the trial cannot, I would
submit, help but affect their testimony.  In reference to
Ms. Leonard, she intends to offer testimony about what she
observed on the 19th.  Certainly there has been a lot of
evidence concerning the 19th.  And also she is still sorting
through some of these things.  And she intends to offer
testimony about impact upon her life, and we would submit that
that cannot escape influence from the testimony in court.
         And I believe the same would be true to Miss Reyes in
terms of impact, and we would also stand upon the objection we
previously made.
         THE COURT:  Yes.
         MR. NIGH:  The constitutional objection.
         THE COURT:  Yes, I understand.
             RULING ON MOTION TO EXCLUDE WITNESSES
         THE COURT:  Well, the issue is whether the
observations that these witnesses have testified about of trial
proceedings create a prejudice or will cause any influence or
effect on the testimony that they're expected to give
concerning the effects of the crimes; and considering what the
witnesses have said here and also the demeanor and manner of
these witnesses, which I think is extremely important -- I mean
I put these questions, myself, to them in a way in which it
would seem to me that if they were influenced by this court's
rulings or defense counsel's zealous advocacy or Mr. McVeigh's
presence, they would have shown some reaction.  They didn't.
Strikes me that both of these women are quite disciplined and
emotionally prepared to give relevant testimony without the
influence of any emotional reaction to the observations of the
trial that they have made.
         So I'm going to permit their testimony.
         MR. MACKEY:  Your Honor, may I speak to one matter as
to Diane Leonard?
         THE COURT:  Yes.
         MR. MACKEY:  I spoke to Mr. Burr this morning.  There
is one photograph, family photograph, that I'd like to show
Mrs. Leonard.  It's Government Exhibit 1452.  It depicts
Mr. Leonard, Mrs. Leonard, and his three sons gathered before a
fireplace.  If you look carefully behind the persons, you can
see some Christmas decorations, and if asked, she would say it
was taken during the holiday season.  I've instructed her, if
we identify this photograph, she is not to use the word
"Christmas."  I did want to alert the Court, and I told
Mr. Burr about the same matter.
         THE COURT:  So it isn't going to be testimony "This
was our last Christmas together" or something like that.
         MR. MACKEY:  No.
         MR. BURR:  I told Mr. Mackey we did not object.
         THE COURT:  All right.
         Now, have you decided whether there's going to be a
defense opening statement immediately after the Government's
opening?
         MR. BURR:  Your Honor, we will reserve for that time.
         THE COURT:  I think we'll take about a 10-minute
recess before we do the openings, and then we'll do the opening
statements, and then I'll do the preliminary instructions and
then the single voir dire question and then any follow-up as
there need be follow-up from that.  So let's take 10 minutes
and get ready.
    (Recess at 9:12 a.m.)
    (Reconvened at 9:22 a.m.)
         THE COURT:  Be seated, please.
         I may have misspoken and said that we'd have the
opening statements and then the preliminary instruction.  If I
did, I said that in error.  We'll, of course, do the
preliminary instruction and ask the general voir dire question
first.
         Also, we make take more frequent recesses.  If I think
it's necessary to recess in evaluating the jury's reaction and
other things happening in the courtroom, I'll do it.  So you
should be prepared for the possibility of additional recesses.
         All right.  Let's bring in the jurors.
    (Jury in at 9:23 a.m.)
         THE COURT:  Members of the jury, good morning.
         JURORS:  Good morning.
         THE COURT:  Please excuse the delay in starting this
morning, but there were a number of things that I needed to
take up with counsel before we resume the penalty phase hearing
or begin the penalty phase hearing in the case, so that's why
we were delayed.
                   PRELIMINARY INSTRUCTIONS
         THE COURT:  Now, before we begin, I want to give you a
general overview of where we are now and what to expect in the
immediate days ahead.
         Now that the jury has found Timothy McVeigh guilty of
crimes which carry a possible sentence of death, we begin the
second phase of the trial, the part where you will be asked to
decide whether Timothy McVeigh should be sentenced to death, to
life imprisonment without any possibility of release, or some
other lesser sentence.
         Even though the jury has found Mr. McVeigh guilty of
charges which carry a possible death sentence, the law requires
that you approach this sentencing proceeding with open minds
and be able to give meaningful consideration to all of the
possible sentences, which again are death, life in prison
without the possibility of ever being released, or any lesser
sentence provided by law.
         Before deciding on the appropriate punishment, you
must consider additional information about the crimes and about
the uniqueness of the defendant as an individual human being.
The information you may consider includes the evidence
presented at the trial.  Thus you may consider the testimony,
the exhibits, and the stipulations offered by both sides during
the guilt phase; and there will be no need for the parties to
reoffer that evidence that's already before you.
         The parties will also call witnesses and other
exhibits at this second hearing in an effort to prove
aggravating and mitigating circumstances.  The Government first
will present information about aggravating circumstances which
tend to support imposition of the death penalty.  The defendant
then will present information about mitigating circumstances
which tend to support imposition of a sentence other than
death.
         I will instruct you in more detail at the close of
this hearing regarding the questions you must answer based on
all of the information which you will then have before you.
Your initial responsibility will be to decide whether the
Government has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the
defendant acted with the requisite intent to cause death and
whether the Government has proved at least one aggravating
factor from the list of aggravating factors it has alleged.
         If you make these findings, you must then consider
whether the Government has proved beyond a reasonable doubt
additional aggravating factors called "nonstatutory aggravating
factors" that it has alleged.
         Next, each juror individually must consider whether
the defendant has proved any mitigating factors by a
preponderance of the evidence.  Mitigating factors may include
information about personal traits, character, or background of
Timothy McVeigh.
         You must ultimately determine whether the proven
aggravating factor or factors sufficiently outweigh any proven
mitigating factor or factors to justify a sentence of death.
The weighing of aggravating and mitigating factors is not a
mechanical process.  You should not simply count the number of
aggravating factors and mitigating factors and decide which
number is greater, but instead you should consider the weight
and value of each factor.
         Your role in this proceeding is to be the conscience
of the community in making a moral judgment about the worth of
a specific life balanced against the societal value of a
deserved punishment for those particular crimes.  Your decision
must be a reasoned one, free from the influence of passion,

prejudice, or any other arbitrary factors.
         As in the guilt phase of the trial, there will be four
steps in this sentencing hearing:
         First, counsel for the Government will make an opening
statement.  Counsel for the defendant will make an opening
statement at a later time.
         Second, the parties will present information,
beginning with the Government and then the defendant and
finally the Government again in rebuttal, if it wishes.
         The third stage or phase will be counsel for the
Government and the defendant will make closing arguments, just
as they did during the trial, beginning with the Government and
then the defendant's counsel and then the Government's counsel
again in rebuttal.
         And four, I will instruct you in detail more fully on
the controlling law.
         Now, once again, just as was true throughout the
trial, you must keep open minds and wait until you've heard it
all before making any individual decisions and before
discussing the question of punishment with any other jurors.
         Now, I must ask you this question:  We -- of course,
you recognize some of these things from the time that you were
here for voir dire and you heard a lot of these same things
being explained to you generally; and you responded with
respect to your ability to decide the question of punishment if
that should occur and to follow the law and go according to the
law and the information.  And we speak of "information" at this
stage instead of "evidence," because technically the rules of
evidence do not limit the information that can be provided
during this phase.
         Of course, you're going to be limited to considering
what you see and hear in the courtroom, but you won't have the
same type of objections being made by lawyers with respect to
hearsay, for example.  Hearsay, within limits, can be
considered in this information.  It's a different type of
hearing.  We're at a sentencing hearing; and the rules, so to
speak, that I will be applying are a bit different.
         But, of course, the fundamental rule is that the jury
must fairly and impartially consider what they have heard, both
at trial and during this phase and follow the law in making the
decision.
         So I want to ask you now:  Much has happened since you
first answered these questions before the trial ever started
and during the time that you were selected as jurors.  I must
ask you now:  Are there any of you who for any reason feel that
you are now unable to proceed and fairly deliberate and decide
the issues to be presented to you in accordance with this
general instruction that I have just given to you and the
detailed instructions to be given to you requiring that you
base your decision on the information and law given to you in
this court?
         Are there any of you for any reasons of health who are
unable to proceed?
         Very well.  We will then go forward with this hearing
and call on counsel for the Government for the opening
statement.
                       OPENING STATEMENT
         MR. RYAN:  Your Honor . . .
         THE COURT:  Mr. Ryan.
         MR. RYAN:  May it please the Court . . .
         THE COURT:  Go ahead.
         MR. RYAN:  . . . Mr. Jones, my colleagues, fellow
prosecutors, and ladies and gentlemen of the jury.
         My name is Pat Ryan.  I'm the United States Attorney
in Oklahoma City, where these crimes occurred.  On behalf of
the United States and my fellow prosecutors, it is my duty to
talk to you, to prepare you to receive information about this
crime.  You have already heard some information, but we will
present more, information that will be difficult for us to
present, information that will be painful for you to hear.  But
it is our duty to ensure that you are fully informed with
respect to all of the facts, the loss of life, the devastation,
and the injuries to those affected by these crimes; and it is
your duty to be fully informed before you make a sentencing
decision.
         We present this information on behalf of the United
States not to evoke your sympathy.  The victims of this crime
have had all of the sympathy they can stand in the last two
years.
         There will be no postmortem photographs.  We want you
to make a decision, a sentencing decision based upon the hard,
cold facts of what occurred.
         By the verdict that you have found, you have made a
determination that this defendant, Timothy McVeigh, committed
all of the crimes charged, crimes of terrorism, crimes of
killing 160 people, crimes of murdering eight law enforcement
officers.  Each of these crimes alone carries the death
penalty; but you have also heard from his Honor this morning
that not every crime, not every murder, justifies the
imposition of the death penalty.  There are special
circumstances and cases in which that is permitted, and his
Honor told you some this morning about some of the factors that
you will need to consider, factors in aggravation, factors in
mitigation.  You've already heard some of this from the
defendant, matters in mitigation.  You've heard something about
his life and about his record in the Army, but more information
will be presented.
         The Court and the law will provide you with a
framework, a structure, a format of sorts to assist you and
guide you in connection with this decision; matters in
aggravation, and matters in mitigation.  The law, however, does
not define for you what weight you should give to these
factors; and that, of course, is what his Honor has just talked
to you about just moments ago.  Some of the factors, whether
they be in mitigation or aggravation, you may attribute little
weight to.  Some, you may attribute a lot of weight to.
Others, you may attribute tons of weight to.  That decision is
yours.
         In the end, you will be asked to balance these
aggravators and mitigators and act, as his Honor stated, as the
moral conscience of the community.
         Some months ago before this trial began, the United
States notified Mr. Jones and his colleagues as to those
aggravating factors that the United States would rely upon in
this case should the defendant be found guilty; and I'm going
to list for you those seven factors and then discuss each in
turn with you this morning.
         The first factor is that the defendant committed the
offenses after substantial planning and premeditation to cause
the death of one or more persons and to commit an act of
terrorism.
         The second factor:  That the deaths or injuries
resulting in death occurred during the commission of an offense
under 18 United States Code Section 844(d), the transportation
of explosives in interstate commerce for certain purposes; in
this case, the loss of life for those who were in and around
the Murrah Building and the destruction of the Murrah Building,
itself.
         Third fact:  That the defendant committed the offenses
against one or more public servants who were law enforcement
officers because of these victims' status as law enforcement
officers.
         Fourth, the defendant, in the commission of the
offenses, knowingly created a grave risk of death to one or
more persons in addition to the victims, the deceased victims
of this crime.
         Five:  That in committing the offenses charged in the
indictment, the defendant caused serious physical and emotional
injury, including maiming, disfigurement, and permanent
disability to numerous people.
         Six:  That the offenses committed by the defendant
resulted in multiple deaths, the deaths of 168 people.
         Seven:  The victim-impact evidence will be presented.
This is evidence concerning the effect of the defendant's
offenses on the victims and the victims' families as evidenced
by the oral testimony and victim-impact statements that
identify the victim of the offenses and the extent and scope of
injury and loss suffered by the victims and the victims'
families.
         With the Court's permission, I'm going to ask that
each of these factors, which are contained on Government's
Exhibit 1531, which we are offering only for illustrative
purposes, be shown to you on the screen as I go through each of
these factors.
         THE COURT:  You may do so.
         MR. RYAN:  Thank you, your Honor.
         I'll first start with the factor involving substantial
planning and premeditation.  Now, over the course of the past
six weeks, you have heard evidence with respect to the degree
of planning and preparation used by this defendant in
connection with this bombing.  You've heard it in bits and
pieces; but together, taken together, it shows to you the
fabric of the defendant, the person who thought out, who
planned, carefully planned, and executed these crimes.
         Frequently, murders are committed with little or no
planning, with seconds of premeditation, sometimes in the heat
of passion.  And as you reflect on this evidence that you have
heard, you will think about the fact that months and months and
months prior to this bombing, the defendant hatched his plan
and set about the course of events that culminated on April 19.
         I know you recall the evidence, and I'm not going to
spend much time talking to you about it this morning.  I know
that you recall the letter that Mr. McVeigh wrote to Gwenn
Strider dated February 10, 1995, in which he told her, "Onward
and upward.  I passed on that legacy about a half a year ago.
My whole mind-set has shifted from intellectual to animal."
         And you recall what happened six months before that
Strider letter.  The defendant and Terry Nichols purchased
4,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate fertilizer from McPherson's.
The defendant rented storage sheds in false names in Herington,
Kansas, and Council Grove.  The defendant made 29 telephone
calls to chemical companies, to friends, to raceways to try to
purchase nitromethane.
         You'll recall that nitromethane is the ingredient in
the bomb book that Mr. McVeigh purchased a month after Waco.
You'll recall that the defendant made at least two trips to
racetracks to buy anhydrous hydrazine or nitromethane.
         You'll recall that the defendant and Terry Nichols
burglarized a quarry where they stole Tovex explosives and
blasting caps.  You will recall that they traveled then to
Kingman, Arizona, where they rented a storage shed there to
store the explosives.  You will recall they made calls to
barrel companies to buy the 55-gallon containers to hold the
bomb.
         The defendant made dozens and dozens and dozens of
calls on a debit card, telephone card, that was purchased under
the false name of Daryl Bridges.  Each time he made one of
those calls, he must have thought about what would occur when
the bomb exploded.
         In 1994, December, the defendant cased the Murrah
Building to take a look at the building and its people that he
would bring down.  While there, he planned his escape route to
ensure that he was not injured when he tried to get away from
the bomb.  You heard evidence that he forged a driver's license
in the name of Robert Kling from Redfield, South Dakota.  And
what date did he put on the birthday of Robert Kling?
April 19.
         And you heard that he even selected the date that he
was going to commit these crimes:  Liberty Day, April 19, the
two-year anniversary of the tragedy at Waco.
         And as the defendant gathered his bomb components and
thought about his plan, he knew exactly what the effects of
this bomb were going to be.  You'll recall there was talk about
The Turner Diaries in the case, a book that Mr. McVeigh read
and tried to get others to read.  It tells us on pages 35 to 40
exactly what was going to happen after McVeigh exploded his
bomb, Mr. McVeigh exploded his bomb.
         On page 35 of The Turner Diaries, it states:  "What we
have is a little under 5,000 pounds, and nearly all of that is
ammonium nitrate fertilizer.  Able to pick up 400 pounds of
dynamite from another subway shed.  Sensitized with oil and
tightly confined, it makes an effective blasting agent where
the aim is simply to move a quantity of dirt or rock.  Our
original plan for the bomb called for it to be essentially
unconfined and to be able to punch through two floors of
concrete flooring while producing an open-air blastway."
Strong -- excuse me.  "Powerful enough to blow the facade off a
massive and strongly constructed building."
         Page 38 it states:  "At 9:15 yesterday morning, our
bomb went off in the FBI's national headquarters building."
         Where at page 39 it continues:  "We were still two
blocks away when the pavement shuddered violently under our
feet.  An instant later, the blast wave hit us, a deafening
kawoompf, followed by an enormous roaring, crashing sound,
accentuated by the high-pitched noise of shattering glass all
around us.  The plateglass windows in the store beside us and
dozens of others we could see along the street were blown to
splinters.  A glittering and deadly rain of glass shards
continued to fall into the street from the upper stories of
nearby buildings for a few seconds as a jet-black column of
smoke shot straight up into the sky ahead of us.
         "Dozens of people were surging around the freight
entrance to the central courtyard, some going in, and some
coming out.  Many were bleeding profusely from cuts, and all
had expressions of shock or dazed disbelief on their faces.
The scene of the courtyard was one of utter devastation.  The
whole Pennsylvania wing of the building, as we could then see,
had collapsed partly into the courtyard in the center of the
building and partly into Pennsylvania Avenue.  A huge gaping
hole yawned into the courtyard pavement just beyond.
         "The rubble of" mason -- "of collapsed masonry,
overturned trucks and automobiles, smashed office furniture,
and building rubble were strewn wildly about.  And so were the
bodies of a shockingly large number of victims."
         The defendant selected ammonium nitrate because he
knew from The Turner Diaries it would bring down a strongly
constructed building.  And he knew it would cause the loss of
life because he had read in The Turner Diaries what a bomb of
this size would do to an office building filled with people.
         We believe that this aggravating factor of substantial
planning and premeditation has been established by the evidence
that we have already proven to you.  I know you recall the
evidence, and we will not repeat this evidence in this penalty
phase.
         The second aggravating factor that I wish to talk to
you about briefly this morning is the fact that the defendant,
committing the crimes that you have found he committed, also
violated 18 United States Code 844(d) because he transported in
interstate commerce explosives in an attempt to cause the death
of the people in and around the Murrah Building and to cause
the destruction of the Murrah Building.
         And I know you recall this evidence.  It's fresh on
your mind.  You recall that he obtained the ammonium nitrate in
Kansas; you know that -- that he obtained the blasting caps and
the Tovex sausages from a quarry in Kansas.  You know that he
rented a truck in Kansas.  You heard that he purchased
nitromethane in Texas.  And you know what "interstate commerce"
means.  It means simply taking these items, these bomb
components, across state lines.  And he obviously did, because
the bomb, of course, went off in Oklahoma City.
         Again, I'm not going to spend any more time -- we're
not going to spend any of your time in sentencing presenting
additional evidence as to this factor.  It's already been
presented, and we know you recall the evidence.
         The third factor involves the death of law enforcement
officers because of their status as public servants, because
they were law enforcement officers.  And I know that you recall
the venom that flowed from the defendant's letters.  You heard
his testimony -- the testimony of his sister, Jennifer, as she
told you of the things that Mr. McVeigh placed on the computer
in their home.  You heard of his desire to see federal law
enforcement officers "swinging in the wind," and you recall the
statements from the Strider letter about "ripping the bastards'
heads off."  And I won't repeat the rest, because I know you
recall it.
         The defendant killed 160 people to accomplish his goal
of killing law enforcement officers.  He did it.  But he had to
kill all these innocent people to accomplish the goal of
killing these officers.
         There were eight law enforcement officers, and I know
you recall their names, because you found that the defendant
had murdered each one of these people:  Cindy Campbell-Brown
from the Secret Service, Mickey Maroney from the Secret
Service, Don Leonard from the Secret Service, Alan Whicher from
the Secret Service, Kenny McCullough from the Drug Enforcement
Agency, Paul Ice from United States Customs, Claude Medearis
from United States Customs, and Paul Broxterman with the
Inspector General's Office of Housing and Urban Development.
         The families of each of these people have one thing in
common in addition to having a law enforcement relative.  Each
of these families knew how to wait.  They had all waited many
nights for these men and these women -- and this woman -- to
come home.  These people were charged with the responsibility
of enforcing our nation's laws.  They sometimes were out on
missions that required great danger, protecting our nation's
leaders, arresting drug criminals, interdicting drugs from
entering our country.  One of these officers had been shot, all
had been scared, and all of their families had waited long
nights.
         And on April 19, their wait began.  Cindy
Campbell-Brown was a brand-new officer with Secret Service.
She had only been a law enforcement officer for about a year.
About a month prior to the bombing, she had married Ron Brown,
another Secret Service officer.  Her father, Gary Campbell, had
last seen his daughter on her birthday, April 15, shortly prior
to the bombing.  When Ron Brown and Gary Campbell heard about
the bombing, their wait began, but because Cindy Campbell-Brown
was on the 9th floor, their wait was not long.
Cindy Campbell-Brown was the very first person who was
identified by the medical examiner's office among the 168 who
died.
         You recall the testimony of Mike Shannon.  He was the
burly fireman who sat up there on the witness box and showed
you his forearm and told you the distance from his elbow to his
hand was the distance between the floors that had pancaked in
the Murrah Building.  And the reason Cindy Campbell-Brown was
quickly identified was because only one floor had collapsed on
top of her:  The top floor.
         And that is true for four other law enforcement
officers as well as.  In total, five of these officers officed
on the 9th floor.  Mickey Maroney, another Secret Service
agent, officed on the 9th floor.  He and his wife, Robbie,
lived in Oklahoma City with their children.  Robbie worked at a
local hospital, McBride Clinic, which is about a mile from the
Murrah Building.  She heard the thunderous explosion from where
she was officed, and she came running to the Murrah Building.
When she got there, the evidence will be that she looked at the
building and knew the chances of her husband living were not
good.  And she was right.  Not one person from Secret Service
lived.
         With despair, she called her children down; and they
waited together till midafternoon.  And finally, she sent them
home so that she could further check and try to get information
about her husband; and she waited, and she waited.  And
finally, Friday, April 21, Mickey's partner, Don Newsome, came
to her door and told her the news that her husband had died.
Mickey was the 14th victim identified by the medical examiner's
office.
         The third Secret Service agent who died was Alan
Whicher.  Alan had a distinguished career with Secret Service.
He had provided security and protection to presidents, to
Margaret Thatcher, to Prince Charles, even to the Pope.  He and
his wife, Pam, lived in the Oklahoma City area.  And at 8:45
that morning, after he had arrived at work, he called his wife,
Pam, to tell her he was thinking about her and to let her know
that he wished her well because she had to make a presentation
to a Bible study group later that morning.  He knew she was
nervous, and he wanted to show his support for her.  17 minutes
later, the roar of the bomb ripped through her house.  Her wait
began.  Friends, neighbors, relatives poured into her home to

provide support and to help her while she waited.
         Alan Whicher had a good friend with Secret Service.
His name was Steve Calo.  Prior to Alan's death, he had talked
to Steve.  They knew their work was dangerous.  And they knew
they might die in the line of duty someday.  And they made a
pact that if anything ever happened to one of them, the other
would be there to support the other's family and their
children.  And at 11:00 that night on the night of April 19,
Steve Calo flew in from Washington, D.C., and showed up on the
doorstep of Pam Whicher.  And he sat there and waited with her
and her family until Alan's body was recovered and identified
on April 21.
         The fourth officer with Secret Service who died was
Don Leonard.  Don Leonard had a 24-year career with Secret
Service.  He had provided protection and security for seven
different presidents of the United States.  His wife, Diane,
will testify in this case; and she will tell you about the
times that he worried, that she worried and waited while he was
on assignments.  And she will tell you that one thing she never
worried about, though, is when he went down to the Murrah
Building to his office.
         On April 19, Diane was in Tulsa.  She was a sales
representative for a company, and she was with a customer.  And
she did not hear anything about the bombing until 2:00 that
afternoon.  And when she did, she jumped in her car and
frantically drove to Oklahoma City.  She immediately went to
St. Anthony's Hospital.  St. Anthony's Hospital was the place
designated to keep lists of those who were injured in the
bombing.  And she searched that list hoping that she would find
her husband's name on there, hoping he was injured.  But he
wasn't.  His name wasn't there.
         Her wait began.  And on Friday night, she, too, was
notified of his death.  She went to the funeral home because
she had never told her husband good-bye.  She was told not to
look at his body.  She did it anyway.  Don was the 30th victim
to be identified.
         The fifth officer was Ken McCullough, from the Drug
Enforcement Agency.  Ken had graduated from Texas A & M.  He
had worked for the Defense Investigative Service and gone to
work thereafter with the Drug Enforcement Agency.  He had many
times been out on drug assignments, dangerous assignments.  And
when his wife heard of his -- heard of the bombing of the
Murrah Building, she immediately turned on a television.  She
was teaching in a classroom in Oklahoma City.  When she heard
the news, she called the school where her children attended,
Jessica and Patrick; and she told the authorities at the
school, "Don't let my children see a TV."  But Jessica already
had.
         She went and picked her children up and took them to a
command center so she could find out information; and while
there, her son, Patrick, accidentally saw the pictures that
you've seen, the images of the Murrah Building, and began
screaming.  She calmed him.  She comforted her children, and
she waited.
         And on Saturday, April 22, officers of the Drug
Enforcement Agency brought her his badge and his wallet.  He
was the 32d victim to be identified in the bombing.
         The sixth officer was Paul Ice, an officer with the
United States Customs Service.  Paul was the middle child of
Jack and Neva Ice, who grew up in a suburb outside of Oklahoma
City.  After Paul graduated from high school, he went into the
Marine Corps.  He served on active duty and in the reserves and
altogether served 20 years, graduating -- excuse me -- retiring
with 20 years of service as a lieutenant colonel.
         On April 19, he was an officer for the United States
Customs Service.  He'd engaged, also, in a number of high-risk
operations, and his family had worried as well.  When Paul's
family found out about the bombing, they, of course, were
worried, like all the others.  But that night, they found out
that the chances of Paul surviving were not good, because they
talked to the same person that talked to you, Priscilla
Salyers.  You recall Priscilla:  She was the secretary at her
work at Customs, who, when the building exploded, she fell into
the rubble and was buried and had to wait for four hours for
firemen to find her and bring her out.
         Well, she told Paul's family the same thing that she
told you:  She was sitting at her desk, and Paul came up to ask
a question.  She turned to look at him, and he disappeared.
But because Paul and the United States Customs Service was
located on the 5th floor, it took a lot longer to get him out.
Paul's family had to wait eight days for Mike Shannon, the
other fireman, to pull pancaked floor off of pancaked floor to
find him.  He was the 94th victim to be identified.
         Claude Medearis is the seventh officer who died.
Claude graduated from high school down in Colorado Springs.
Afterwards he went in the military, just as Paul Ice had done,
only he went into the Army.  After finishing his tour of duty
with the Army, he joined the Customs Service where he provided
border control along the Texas border.  In 1991, they were
brought to Oklahoma City because their oldest daughter's
husband had died on the last day of Desert Storm, and they came
to Oklahoma to provide comfort and support and stayed there in
Oklahoma until the Murrah Building bombing.
         His wife, Sharon, will tell you on the morning of the
19th, Claude had told her that he was going to the Murrah
Building but that he also had to go to the federal prison in El
Reno about 40 miles from Oklahoma City.  So when she saw the
images on television, she prayed that he had already left the
Murrah Building, gone to El Reno, and she waited and waited for
ten days.
         Claude was the 109th victim to be identified.
         The eighth law enforcement officer was Paul
Broxterman.  He was with the Inspector General's Division of
Housing and Urban Development.  He had only been to Oklahoma
City and worked at the Murrah Building for three days.  You
heard Susan Hunt on the very first day of this trial tell you
about the offices of HUD and that they were located on the 7th
and 8th floors, but Paul was the exception.  Because of the
nature of his work involving Inspector General's work, he was
located by himself on the 4th floor of the building.  And
because he was on the 4th floor, his family had to wait 13 days
for him to be identified.
         And when he was identified, he was the 134th victim.
         After you have heard the evidence with respect to the
law enforcement officers and the defendant's intent with
respect to these law enforcement officers, we believe you will
find that this aggravating factor has been met.
         The fourth aggravating factor is that the defendant
created a grave risk of death to others; people in addition to
the 163 people who died in the Murrah Building.
         The defendant's plan to cause the maximum destruction
in Oklahoma City did not stop with buying ammonium nitrate or
debit telephone cards or nitromethane or even targeting the law
enforcement officers.  This defendant wanted to make sure that
the maximum impact was caused from his bomb.  He wanted to make
sure that blood flowed in the streets of America.  What time
did he pick for this bomb?  9:02 on a weekday in a crowded,
bustling, major city in America, a time where all of the
children in the day care would be there, all of the men and
women of the Murrah Building would be at their offices, at
their desks at work; that the people who gathered, the visitors
at Social Security, would have gathered there in the visiting
room just outside the glass wall, the people of the credit
union would have gathered for its opening at 9:00, for the men
and women of Oklahoma City to be at work.
         As he drove this Ryder truck on 5th Street, I hope
you'll recall that he stopped for 23 seconds in front of the
Regency Tower apartment complex.  You saw his truck there in
the frames that were shown to you.  And you'll also recall that
you saw Richard Nichols' red Ford Festiva parked in front of
the Murrah Building, and you'll recall that Mrs. Nichols had
said that they needed to take their nephew Chad to the doctor
that morning, and she had gone into the Regency Tower to get
Richard so they could go to the doctor's office.  Fortunately
Chad was moving from the front seat to the back seat, because
when the bomb exploded, the rear axle whirled its way towards
the Nichols' family car.  The Nichols family was exposed to the
grave risk of death, even though none died.
         And you'll recall that as he drove his truck further
east on 5th Street, he went by the Water Resources Building.
You probably recall Lou Klaver, the very first witness in this
case, was a lawyer that worked in the Water Resources Board.
There were 65 people at work in that building that morning.
Lou told you that she was conducting a meeting, fortunately for
her, on the north side of that building, away from the Murrah
Building.  And you heard the sounds of the people in the
building and their fright.  When the bomb exploded, two people
in that building died.  Trudy Rigney died, dead on arrival at
the hospital.  Robert Chipman died two days later in the
hospital after his family was forced to make the agonizing
decision to discontinue life support.  All 65 people in that
building were exposed to the grave risk of death.  63 lived,
and two died.
         The Ryder truck next passed the Athenian Building, a
small building just east of the Water Resources Building,
almost directly across from the Murrah Building.  There were
five people in the Athenian Building.  One of them was Anita
Hightower.  You may remember Anita.  She was the lady that
Helena Garrett told you about.  You may recall that Helena told
you that Anita had a booth in front of the Murrah Building a
few weeks before the bombing and Helena had seen her, they were
old friends.  But Anita didn't know that Helena had a child,
had had Tevin, so they stopped and they talked and Tevin came
to the window and they waved at Tevin.  That's Anita Hightower.
She died when the Athenian Building collapsed on her.
         As Mr. McVeigh pulled the Ryder truck in front of the
Murrah Building, just feet separated the glass wall, the glass
windows of the Murrah Building, where a couple of dozen people
had gathered for 9:00 appointments at Social Security.  You
remember the log that Eric McKisick from Social Security showed
you.  It didn't have all the names of the visitors, but it had
the visitors who had made appointments that morning.
         Across the street from the Murrah Building was the
Journal Record Building.  It was that building where Helena
Garrett worked, and so did Susan Urbach.  You'll hear from her.
         Helena told you that she was wanting to go over to the
Murrah Building to get Tevin, to see Tevin and move her car at
9:00.  But on her way out of the Journal Record Building, she
was delayed.  She ran into a friend and didn't get over there
at 9 like she had planned.  As a result, she lived, Tevin died.
         As Mr. McVeigh got out of his truck, the children in
the day care were playing.  Their cribs were up against the
north wall.  You heard that testimony.  Right up against the
glass where they were visible from the street.
         As Mr. McVeigh got out of the car, out of the truck,
Royia Sims was looking out the window of the Journal Record
Building.  She was a lady that worked on the south side of the
Journal Record Building.  She had a window that faced directly
the Murrah Building.  And as the bomb exploded, the plateglass
window of the Journal Record Building rocketed to her face in
shards and jagged pieces.  You'll witness the results.
         And as the defendant crossed the parking lot on his
way behind the YMCA, Kathy Ridley, a young lady, was walking
across the parking lot.  Although the defendant knew what she
didn't, he would reach the safety of the YMCA behind the
building and she would burn to death from the blast and the
fire that crossed 5th Street.
         Directly ahead of the Ryder truck and the YMCA where
the defendant hid behind were 165 people, some of them
exercising in the facilities of the YMCA, some of them working
in its offices, some of them attending the YMCA day care.  You
saw the pictures of the YMCA children.  You may not have known
who they were.  When we showed you video footage at the
beginning of the trial of what happened, those were the faces
of the children, frightened, blood-stained.  Those were the
YMCA day-care children.  All exposed to the grave risk of
death.
         At the very instant when the defendant left the scene,
Randy Norfleet, the second witness who testified, told you that
he had just gotten up to the 6th floor, he had talked to
Sergeant Ben Davis, Sergeant Davis was awaiting word as to
whether he would be accepted into officers' candidate school.
And Mr. Norfleet walked away from him, the explosion happened;
Sergeant Davis died, Randy Norfleet lived.
         You heard Priscilla Salyers tell you that when Paul
Ice came up to her, the bomb went off, he disappeared; she
lived, he died.
         You heard Captain Matt Cooper tell you that he was at
his office against the north window there on the 6th floor;
moments before the bomb went off, he left his office.  He
wanted to go talk to another Marine on the floor; Captain
Randolph Guzman came and sat down in his chair.  Captain Guzman
died, Matt Cooper lived.  Death was random on April 19.
         There were 361 people in the Murrah Building at the
time of the blast.  You'll hear evidence of that from Sue
Mallonee, a state epidemiologist in Oklahoma who conducted a
study.  163 of those 361 died, 198 lived, but all were exposed
to the grave risk of death.
         At the conclusion of the evidence, we will ask you to
find that this aggravating factor has been met; the defendant
did create a grave risk of death to many, many people.
         The fifth aggravating factor is that serious and
permanent injury occurred to the people of Oklahoma City.  Of
course we will not bring the hundreds of people who were
injured in the bombing before you.  We will only bring a few.
But we want you to have a sense about the injuries that people
received.  One of the victims who was seriously injured you've
already heard about, Daina Bradley.  You'll recall Daina.  She
was the witness the defense called in the case who was in the
Social Security waiting room.  She testified about what she
thought she saw.  Daina Bradley had gone down to Social
Security that morning with her mother; with her sister,
Falesha; with her two children, Gabreon and Peachlyn.  When the
bomb went off, Gabreon, Peachlyn and her mother, Sharon, all
died.  She and Falesha were seriously injured.
         When the firemen and the rescuers went into the
building, they tried to find all of the survivors.  They
finally located Daina.  She was buried in rubble in a small
cave.  Americans have always been heroic but never -- or rarely
more so than on April 19.  They, the rescuers, called Dr. Andy
Sullivan, a orthopedic surgeon in Oklahoma City, to come down
and try to help Daina.  He came down.  The building was still
smoldering and shuddering.  He crawled into the tiny space
where she was.  He had to lay on top of her because there was
so little space in this cave.
         He will tell you about having to cut her leg off while
he laid on top of her.  And he will tell you about the fear he
felt, the fear she felt, and the fear they all felt with their
lives hanging in the balance.
         21 children left the safety of their parents' arms on
April 21st (sic) to attend day care at the Murrah Building.
When the rescuers poured to the building, they were told, There
are day-care children here, find them.
         You recall the testimony from Mike Shannon when he
went to help the ladies who were laid down on the first floor.
They grabbed him by his collar, told him to go find those
children, and they did.  Unfortunately most were dead, but six
of the children lived and were taken to area hospitals.  Joe
Webber, Chris Nguyen, Rebecca Denny, Brandon Denny, P. J.
Allen, Nekia McCloud.  We're not going to bring these children
to you.  They're not going to be in the courtroom for you to
examine.  Instead we've made a videotape of three of these
children so you can see what problems they're having, not for
emotion, for facts.  You need to know the facts.
         You'll see the video of Brandon Denny.  This is a
child who a ceiling tile pierced through his skull and deeply
embedded in his brain.  He had to have seven brain surgeries to
remove this ceiling tile.
         You'll see him on the video with his therapist
Michelle Kirby.  And you will see the things that are very
difficult for him to do as he tries to use his dominant, his
right, arm and is unable to.
         You will see the video of P. J. Allen as he -- a child
who is terribly burned in the bombing.  You will see the
evidence of how he rasps as he tries to breathe through his
tracheostomy.
         You will see the video of Nekia McCloud, a young black
girl, little girl, who suffered profound brain damage.  You
will hear the testimony on the video of her doctor, Dr. Morris
Gessouroun, who cared for her, and you will see her frustration
as she tries and she fails to follow the simplest of commands.
         When you've heard all the evidence, you'll be
satisfied that this aggravating factor has been established.
         The sixth aggravating factor is that multiple deaths
were caused, the deaths of the 168 people.  It would be easy
for you as a jury to think of this as one mass murder.  Don't.
There are 168 people, all unique, all individual, all had
families, all had friends, and they're different.  They went to
church, they coached Little League, they designed highways,
they liked to watch their children dance, they tried to prevent
disease, they played on their beds with their kids, they
enforced our nation's laws, they had unique smiles and ways of
greeting people at the credit union, they had unique abilities
to recruit men and women into our armed forces.  Some knew how
to run machinery and keep a building going.  Some nursed and
comforted the sick.  Some helped others obtain Social Security,
some protected presidents and even popes.  And all brought
enjoyment and love to others.
         The evidence will be that these 168 people all died a
violent and frightening death.  When we have concluded with our
evidence, you will be satisfied that this aggravating factor
has been established.
         And finally, the seventh aggravating factor, that of
the impact this crime had on the many, many victims.  You will
come to know some of the people who died without warning.  You
will get a glimpse of the devastation, of the broken dreams,
and the lost lives.  Again, we can't and we won't bring you all
of these people.  We will bring you a few.  We will bring to
you some mothers, some fathers, some parents, some grandparents
so that you can understand as they testify that maybe only this
one wife is testifying, but you can remember that there were
many wives involved.
         Dora Reyes will testify.  She lost her husband, Tony,
who worked at HUD.  She will tell you about Tony, what he meant
to the Oklahoma City community and what he meant to her.  She
will tell you about the impact of his death upon her.  The
defendant killed many husbands.
         Greg Sohn will testify.  He will tell you that he lost
his wife, Vickie, who worked in the Army recruiting space on
the 4th floor.  He will tell you about Vickie, about her
qualities, he will tell you about the impact of her death upon
him.  The defendant killed many wives.
         Susan Chavez Pate will testify about her grandson
Zackary.  She'll tell you about Zackary; he attended the day
care there, he was three years old.  She will tell you about
what he was like and the impact of his death on her.  The
defendant killed many grandchildren.
         Tillie Westberry's husband, Robert, died; he worked
for the Defense Investigative Service.  She'll tell you about
Robert, and she'll tell you about the impact of his death upon
their grandchildren.  The defendant killed many grandparents.
         Cindy Ferrell's sister, Susan, died; Susan worked in
HUD.  Cindy will tell you about her sister, Susan, about her
qualities, and will talk to you about the impact of her
sister's death upon her.  The defendant killed many sisters.
         Mike Lenz's wife, Carrie, died.  She was the one that
you heard about was up at the building that day with the
ultrasound films.  She had just had an ultrasound the day
before, and she was pregnant.  Mike will tell you about the
loss of an unborn child.  The defendant killed three unborn
children.
         Todd McCarthy's father, Jim, died.  Todd will tell you
about his father, Jim, and the impact of his death upon him.
The defendant killed many fathers.
         Clint Seidl's mother died, Kathy; she also worked for
Secret Service.  Clint's a young boy.  He will tell you about
his mother.  And he will tell you about the impact of his
mother's death on him.  The defendant killed many mothers.
         David Klaus's daughter, Kimberly, died.  David will
tell you about his daughter, Kimberly; she worked in the credit
union.  He will talk to you about the impact of his daughter's
death upon him.  The defendant killed many daughters.
         Laura Kennedy's son, Blake, died; he was a credit
union -- excuse me, he was one of the day-care babies, 18
months old.  Laura will tell you about her son, Blake, what he
was like.  She will talk about the death and the impact of the
death of children.  There were 19 children that died on
April 19.  Baylee Almon, Danielle Bell, Zackary Chavez, Antonio
Cooper, Anthony Cooper, Aaron Coverdale, Elijah Coverdale, Jaci
Coyne, Tylor Eaves, Tevin Garrett, Kevin Gottshall, Blake
Kennedy, Dominique London, Chase Smith, and Colton Smith.  15
children died in day care, and four other children died who
were simply visiting the Murrah Building.  Ashley Eckles, she
died with her grandparents, the Treanors, who had taken her
down to Social Security that morning.  Kayla Haddock Titsworth
was with her dad, Sergeant Titsworth who was reporting at the
Murrah Building in the Army space.  And of course Daina
Bradley's children:  Gabreon and Peachlyn.  All of these
children were not yet of the age of school, all under the age
of six.
         After you've heard the evidence, you will be satisfied
that the victims in Oklahoma City and their relatives
throughout the country were greatly impacted by this crime.
Ladies and gentlemen, at the end of this case, after you've
heard all of the evidence, we will ask you to return a verdict
of death, the only verdict that justly fits this crime.  Thank
you.
         THE COURT:  Members of the jury, we will take our
morning recess at this time.  And then we'll be proceeding.  I
remind you what I said in the instructions.  You will hear from
defense counsel with an opening statement also, but that will
be reserved until after you have heard from the witnesses
called here by the Government.  So under this procedure the
defense will give you an opening statement before they present
information concerning the mitigating circumstances.
         Now, we're going to go, as we were throughout the
trial, to you're not being sequestered, kept separate and apart
from other persons during the time of the presentation of this
information to you in this hearing.  We again return to holding
you to your oath and on your honor; avoid anything outside
what's being presented to you in this courtroom that could in
any way influence you on the questions that you're going to
have to decide.  Also as a part of maintaining open minds until
you have heard everything that you're going to hear that
relates to these issues, please do not discuss this with other
jurors or of course with any other person.  I'm going back to
what you've heard me say over and over again during the trial,
but it's just as important during this phase of the case as
well, during this proceeding.  So I'm sure you will cooperate
with us and follow these cautions.  You're excused now for 20
minutes.
    (Jury out at 10:31 a.m.)
         THE COURT:  We'll recess, 20 minutes.
    (Recess at 10:32 a.m.)
    (Reconvened at 11:50 a.m.)
         THE COURT:  Be seated, please.
         Did counsel want to approach?
    (At the bench:)
    (Bench Conference 132B1 is not herein transcribed by court
order.  It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)



    (In open court:)
    (Jury in at 1:53 a.m.)
         THE COURT:  All right.  We'll ask for the next
witness.
         MR. HARTZLER:  Government calls David Klaus, your
Honor.
         THE COURT:  Thank you.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right
hand, please.
    (David Klaus affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  David William Klaus, K-L-A-U-S.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  Mr. Hartzler.
         MR. HARTZLER:  Thank you, your Honor.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q.  Good morning, Mr. Klaus.
A.  Good morning, Mr. Hartzler.
Q.  How are you doing?
A.  Pretty well.
Q.  Are you going to be able to go through this?
A.  Sure.  A little nervous --



                      David Klaus - Direct
Q.  Sure.  Start off by telling us where you live.
A.  I live in Evergreen, Colorado, which is a suburb of Denver.
Q.  And how long have you lived in Evergreen?
A.  We've lived there for 22 years.
Q.  22 years in the state of Colorado as well?
A.  That's correct.
Q.  Are you married?
A.  I am married.
Q.  And how long have you been married?
A.  I've been married for 34 years.
Q.  Tell us what your anniversary date is.
A.  April 19.
Q.  Okay.  Are you ready to --
A.  I'm sorry.  1963.
Q.  No, but I was trying to list the month and the date, and
you've satisfied that.  Are you prepared to talk about your
daughter?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Tell us first of all how many children you and your wife
had.
A.  Two.  Our daughter, Kimberly, and our son, Michael.
Q.  And your daughter, Kimberly, is no longer with us.  Is that
correct?
A.  That's correct.
Q.  What happened to her?



                      David Klaus - Direct
A.  She died in the Oklahoma City bombing.
Q.  And at the time she died, how old was she?
A.  She was 29.
Q.  For approximately how many years did Kimberly live with you
in your household?
A.  About 22 years.
Q.  And was most of that in Colorado?
A.  Most of it was in Colorado, yes.  Part of the time was in
California, when we lived in the Los Angeles area and then in
the San Francisco Bay area.
Q.  Did she attend school then in Colorado?
A.  She did.
Q.  And I assume that you saw her on a regular, daily -- almost
daily basis when she lived with you?
A.  Absolutely.
Q.  Prior to Kimberly's death, when was the last time that she
lived with you and your wife?
A.  It was about 18 months before her death.  She lived with us
right up until she was married and moved to -- to Oklahoma.
Q.  All right.  Without identifying the occasion, you have
presented us with a photograph of yourself and your daughter
prior to her leaving your home.
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Prior to her marriage; is that right?
A.  Yes, sir.



                      David Klaus - Direct
Q.  Let me show you on your screen initially, and then the rest
of us may have an opportunity to see it, what's been marked as
Government's Exhibit 1481.
A.  All right.
Q.  Can you identify that?
A.  Yes.  That was taken in our family room at Christmas, 1993.
Q.  Okay.  And who is the handsome gentleman in that photo?
A.  That's me.
         MR. HARTZLER:  Your Honor, I move the admission of
Government's Exhibit 1481.
         MS. RAMSEY:  Your Honor, we would object.
         THE COURT:  Overruled.  Received.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q.  You indicated that your daughter moved out of your house
after she got married?
A.  That is correct.
Q.  And who did she marry?
A.  She married Damon Burgess.
Q.  Where did Kimberly go after she got married to Mr. Burgess?
A.  They moved to Oklahoma City -- actually, to Midwest City
originally and then on base housing at Tinker Air Force Base.
Q.  So he was with the Air Force?
A.  That's correct, sir.
Q.  And that would have been sometime in approximately 1993?
A.  Late '9 -- yes, that's correct.  Late '93.



                      David Klaus - Direct
Q.  And after her marriage, did she assume his last name?
A.  Yes.
Q.  So she became Kimberly Burgess?
A.  That's correct.
Q.  Did she get a job after she moved to Oklahoma City?
A.  Yes, she did.  She worked at -- I'm sorry.  Yes, she did.
She worked at the Federal Employees Credit Union.
Q.  How soon after she moved to Oklahoma City did she get that
job?
A.  Within several months is my recollection.
Q.  Okay.  Mr. Klaus, did you ever visit her at that office?
A.  No, I did not.
Q.  And did you know what building that credit union office was
in?
A.  No.  I did not.  I did not remember.  I had originally
known, but I had forgotten.
Q.  And did she show you something to educate and inform you
about her work and her office and her officemates?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  What did she do?
A.  She had done a videotape of the Murrah Building and the
credit union offices and many of her co-workers.
Q.  So it contains her voice and her picture and --
A.  Contains her voice and her picture.
Q.  That is difficult for you to watch?



                      David Klaus - Direct
A.  Somewhat.
Q.  How much contact did you have with your daughter after she
and her new husband moved to Oklahoma City?
A.  We talked at least once a week, sometimes more often.
Q.  By telephone?
A.  By telephone, yes.
Q.  And did you see her again after she got married and moved
from Colorado?
A.  She was home from Christmas in 1994, Christmas in 1993, and
we took a family vacation to northern California for a lifelong
friend of hers wedding; and that was in early 1995, February,
if my memory serves me correctly.
Q.  I think you may have misspoken when you say Christmas of
'93.  You meant Christmas of '94 that she was home as well?
A.  She was home as well, yes.  She was home for almost all
Christmases.
Q.  And when was the last time you saw your daughter?
A.  Last time we saw Kim was in February of 1995.
Q.  What contact did you have with her after February and
before her death?
A.  Telephone, frequent telephone conversations.  She would
call us and we would call her.
Q.  Mr. Klaus, could you describe your relationship with your
daughter for us?
A.  Very, very close.  I think it's best described as a typical



                      David Klaus - Direct
dad/daughter relationship.  We were very close.  She was very
special to me, right from the moment of her birth.
Q.  She was your oldest child?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Your younger child is a boy; correct?
A.  That's correct.
Q.  You mentioned that April 19 is your wedding anniversary.
A.  Yes.
Q.  Has that presented some difficulty for you because of the
bombing occurring on the same day?
A.  Yes.  We've just arbitrarily picked another date to
celebrate our wedding anniversary because it's -- it's too hard
to do on that date.
Q.  I also noticed that in this photograph and in some of the
other photographs that you've presented to us, you appear to be
heavier than you are today.  Is that fair?
A.  That's correct, yes.
Q.  Have you lost some weight?
A.  I've lost at least 25 pounds, and I've just never gained it
back.  My eating habits are fairly poor now.  I just don't have
the appetite I used to have.
Q.  So you did not lose that weight intentionally?
A.  No, sir.
Q.  When was it you started losing weight?
A.  I think probably immediately after the bombing.  We just --



                      David Klaus - Direct
I just did not have much of an appetite, and it just continued
literally to this day.
Q.  Mr. Klaus, have you experienced other physical difficulties
or problems since your daughter's death?
A.  Yes, I have.  I've had a number of physical ailments,
including hepatitis and bronchitis twice and pneumonia and
suffer from depression, which I'm being treated for right now.
Q.  I don't mean to offend you, but you appear older than four
years from the photograph we saw.
A.  I feel like I've aged 10 years in two years.  I just -- I
just physically feel older and I look older.
Q.  Mr. Klaus, could you describe in general the impact -- this
will be my last question, so you're holding up well.  Thank
you.
         Can you describe in general the impact that the death
of your daughter has had on you?
A.  Well, it's been physically and emotionally just devastating
for me, and I've been in counseling and I -- I'm just to this
day not dealing well with this, this tragedy.  There is just
this huge hole in my heart that is never going to get filled
up.  The loss of Kim is just -- I mean, I think about her first
thing in the morning, and the last thing I think about at night
is Kim and the fact I'm never going to see her again and trying
to imagine how I get on with life without her, which is going
to be extraordinarily difficult.
         MR. HARTZLER:  Thank you, sir.
         Nothing further.
         THE COURT:  Do you have any questions?
         MS. RAMSEY:  No, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  All right.  You're excusing the witness, I
assume.
         MR. HARTZLER:  We are, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  All right.
         THE WITNESS:  Thank you, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  You may step down.  You're excused.
         Next witness, please.
         MR. RYAN:  Alan Prokop, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Okay.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right
hand, please.
    (Alan Prokop affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  Alan A. Prokop, P-R-O-K-O-P.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  Mr. Ryan.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q.  Good morning.



                      Alan Prokop - Direct
A.  Good morning, sir.
Q.  Would you please state your name for the jury.
A.  Alan A. Prokop.
Q.  Where do you live, Officer Prokop?
A.  Oklahoma City.
Q.  Where were you born and raised?
A.  I was born in Denver and raised in Cheyenne and Amarillo,
Texas.
Q.  And after high school, what did you do?
A.  Became a police officer for the City of Oklahoma City.
Q.  What day did you become an Oklahoma City police officer?
A.  In the beginning of 1969.  I became a community service
officer in 1970, and a standard police officer in September of
'72.
Q.  So what is the total number of years of service you have
provided the Oklahoma City Police Department?
A.  29 years, sir.
Q.  And in the course of that 29 years, would it be fair to say
that you have done quite a number of things in the police
department?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  What were you doing in April of '95?
A.  I am the municipal court liaison officer for the city of
Oklahoma City.
Q.  What does that job entail?



                      Alan Prokop - Direct
A.  I work liaison between the court system, the judges, the
city attorney, defense attorneys, and the police department.
Q.  And where were you at 9:00 on the morning of the 19th?
A.  My office is located in the basement of the Municipal Court
Building, which is next door to the police station, 700, on
Couch.
Q.  Who was with you?
A.  Officer Ron Bell had just completed his 8:00 session in
court, and a city marshal by the name of Gary Yeakey is also
assigned in my office.
Q.  What did you hear and do at 9:00?
A.  Approximately -- right after 9:00, we heard a massive
explosion.  We ran upstairs to make sure that it wasn't our
building and check for injuries or problems in the building.
We took the back stairway upstairs into the courtroom proper
and checked the court building.  We found that we were
evacuating the building; however, there was no damage there.
We checked the north windows, and we could see smoke and debris
coming from the area of the federal building.
Q.  How far away was the building you were located in from
where the Murrah Building was located?
A.  Five to six blocks, sir.
Q.  And in terms of the debris that you watched, tell us what
that was like five to six blocks away from the Murrah Building.
A.  We exited the rear door of the court building and stepped



                      Alan Prokop - Direct
out into the street.  The street was dark.  We were receiving
chunks of rock, concrete.  Officer Bell reached out and grabbed
a piece of paper as it floated down and said that the paper was
from the federal building.
Q.  What did you do?
A.  My personal vehicle was parked probably 100 feet from where
we were.  His scout car was parked about two blocks away, so we
jumped into my personal vehicle and drove to the southwest
corner of the federal building, the intersection of 4th and
Harvey, sir.
Q.  What did you do upon arrival?
A.  We jumped from my vehicle and left it partially in the
street and ran towards the federal building.
Q.  What side of the federal building did you approach?
A.  Would have been the south -- direct south of the building
up through the plaza, sir.
Q.  And what did you do when you arrived there?
A.  There were people running from the building towards us
injured, very bloody, crying, and screaming.  From the south
side of the federal building, we could see the building looked
intact, except for the windows were gone.  There were people
standing in the windows screaming for help.
         I asked Officer Bell if he had any gloves and he
advised no; that he had a radio -- is all he had.  I had one
pair of gloves; so I asked if he was right- or left-handed, and



                      Alan Prokop - Direct
we divided my gloves and went to work, sir.
Q.  What did you do?
A.  We had another officer, a new officer by the name of
Officer Washington, approach us as we got to the building; and
we went to the south side of the building, the east portion --
the portion that was later known, I think, as "the pit," and
looked into the building.  There were wires sparking inside, a
real thick and heavy dust, a cloud.  It was strangely quiet,
except the moans and cries from inside the building.
         I asked Officer Bell to contact headquarters and
advise them that we needed the utilities turned off to the
building, as many emergency rescue workers and ambulances as we
could get and as much heavy equipment, sir.
Q.  Now, after you asked Sergeant Bell or Officer Bell to cut
off the utilities or see that that was done, did you enter the
building?
A.  Yes, sir, we did.
Q.  Now, I'm going to show you an exhibit that's already in
evidence, Exhibit 1012, which is the south side photograph of
the building.  Do you see that on your screen?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  All right.  Now, when you were talking about being on the
south plaza, this is where you were.  Right?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Now, let me show you a photograph that has not been in



                      Alan Prokop - Direct
evidence, No.  -- Exhibit 1500.  Tell us what that is.  Can you
identify that picture as what you saw that morning?
A.  Yes, sir.  That's the area that we entered --
         MR. RYAN:  We would offer Government's Exhibit 1500.
         MR. BURR:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  The exhibit is received, 1500.  You may
display it.
         MR. BURR:  Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q.  Now, Sergeant Prokop, if you would, using this exhibit tell
us about entering the building.
A.  As I said, we could hear screams and people crying for
help.  Officer Washington looked at me; and as a new officer,
he asked me, "What do we do?"
         And I said, "Let's get to work."
         He immediately gained entry and began searching the
debris while Officer Bell and I moved to the other side.
         About that time I heard him holler that he had a
victim and needed help.
Q.  What did you do?
A.  We both moved towards him.  He was located in the --
probably 25 feet inside the building.  He had found a pile of
rubble with a concrete slab probably 10 feet tall, 6 to 8 feet
wide.  It was lying on its side, and he had found a victim down
at the bottom of the slab.  It would have been about a 6- to



                      Alan Prokop - Direct
7-foot drop for him.
         I checked the concrete, and it seemed a little loose;
so I braced against it, and he dropped down into the crevice.
And he moved the lady, picked the lady up and handed her to
Officer Bell, who was halfway up in the crevice.  He, in turn,
handed the lady to me; and I exited the building with her, sir.
Q.  Did you learn her name?
A.  Yes, sir.  I carried her out of the building, which took
some time to get across the debris because you were going up
and down.  We got outside; and as we walked to the -- walked
through the plaza to the very southwest corner of the plaza at
street level, 4th and Harvey, where the medical people were,
there were an ambulance -- there was an ambulance there and
several em. care workers there on the corner taking care of the
injured.  I laid her down on the ground.  She grabbed my neck
and said, "Don't leave me."  And I advised her I had to get
back in the building, and she began to cry.  And I think she
was worried about me going back in the building.
         I said, "I have to get back in there," and she let me
go.
Q.  Did she tell you her name?
A.  Yes, sir.  It was Theresa.
Q.  Did you leave Theresa?
A.  Yes, sir.  As soon as one of the em. care units came over
and put his hand on her to where she felt a little more secure,



                      Alan Prokop - Direct
I ran back inside the building.
Q.  What did you do when you got back inside the building the
second time?
A.  I lost sight of Officer Bell and Washington.  They had
began working different areas.  As I stepped back into the
building, a civilian handed me a body.  I took the body and
walked back out of the building.  They had set up a temporary
morgue in the plaza directly south of the building, and the
body appeared to be dead.  It was not moving.  It was not
breathing, and I placed the body on the ground.
Q.  All right.  After that, what did you do?
A.  I reentered the building near the picture that you showed
us and a little bit to the left.  A lady had run up to me and
told me that there was a day care in the Murrah Building; and I
didn't know that prior to this time.  She said that there was
40 to 60 children in the day care and advised it was on the 2d
floor.  The floors had pancaked, and we really didn't know
where the 2d floor was; but she pointed to the western side of
the building, and that's where I intended to move to.
Q.  What did you do after you got this information?
A.  I gained -- I started telling the other rescue workers, and
I walked into that area.  As I moved to the area around the
elevator shaft, I observed a hand and arm to be coming out of
the debris and waving back and forth.
Q.  What did you do?



                      Alan Prokop - Direct
A.  I walked over and attempted to uncover the body connected
to the hand.  It appeared to be a female.  Her hand was warm.
She was clutching my hand, sir.
Q.  And how long did you stay there with this hand?
A.  I held it as it squeezed, and I could hear muffled moans
from behind the concrete.  I checked the concrete that was
laying on top of the lady, and it was probably 12 feet long,
probably 10 feet tall.  It appeared to be about 16 inches
thick, and she was behind it.  I could hear water running in
the area, and I screamed to the other rescuers that we had to
get the water turned off; that I felt she was drowning.
Q.  What happened with this lady?
A.  The rescue worker behind the slab hollered that that wasn't
water, Alan, it's blood; and he held up his hand, sir.
Q.  How long did you stay with this lady?
A.  Approximately three more minutes, and then her hand got
very still and started to get cold.  I checked the wrist for a
pulse and found none.
Q.  What did you do after there was no longer a pulse in the
hand?
A.  I did not control myself very well, and I advised the other
rescue workers that there was a lady here that they needed to
handle; and I didn't feel like I could stay there anymore, so I
moved into the day-care area and began to work there.
Q.  All right.  Tell us about that, please.



                      Alan Prokop - Direct
A.  Approximately six to seven more steps into the day-care
area, and a civilian handed me a child.  It appeared to be a
baby.  It appeared to be a black baby.  The dust and debris
covering everything was a thick, fine powder; and I grabbed the
baby to my chest and ran out of the building.  The baby did not
move.  I could sense there was no life in the baby, and I
reached the same plaza and the same rescue workers and left the
baby there.
Q.  Did anyone approach you?
A.  Just the rescue workers, sir, when I let it down.
Q.  And then after you gave this baby to one of the rescuers,
what did you do next?
A.  I worked back into the same area that I was in when they
handed me the baby.  A fireman by the name of Atchley and Mike
Shannon had worked into that same area.  We began to see toys,
coloring books, different debris that made us feel like we were
in the right place.  One of the firemen uncovered a baby.  I
don't know if it was a male or female.  It was young.  It was
crying, and it was bleeding; and they handed me the baby.  And
I had been in and out of the building quite a bit, and I kind
of became a mule.  And they handed me the baby, and I ran out
of the building through the plaza into the intersection of 4th
and Harvey where the medical people were.
Q.  Did you hand the baby off at that time?
A.  Yes, sir.  As I approached the stairs that went down to



                      Alan Prokop - Direct
street level, there was an em. care lady there.  She grabbed
the baby from me, and I ran back inside the building.
Q.  Where did you go this time?
A.  To exactly the same area.  The fireman had actually
hollered at me as I left with the first baby, with the previous
baby, that he had found two more.  I glanced over at him when I
ran out of the building, and there were two infants laying side
by side.  They had been covered by insulation and the heating
and air ducts, and he was administering to them when I left.  I
ran back to that area.
Q.  Did you take anyone with you?
A.  Yes, sir.  Detective Don Hull approached me as I ran back
towards the building.  I was pretty bloody; and he asked me if
I had found the children, and I told him yeah, to follow me.
And he followed me back inside the building to Officer Atchley.
Q.  All right.  After you went back inside the building, did
you find Atchley?
A.  Yes, sir, I did.  He handed me the first baby, who was Joe
Webber, and I handed that baby to Don Hull, and he immediately
left the building.  He then handed me the Brandon Denny child.
         I cradled him in my arms and noticed that he had a
head injury and appeared to have a brick sticking out of his
forehead.
Q.  What did you do?
A.  I stabilized the brick.  The boy was holding a little,



                      Alan Prokop - Direct
green block; and I ran from the building back down through the
plaza, down the stairway, to the street level at 4th and
Harvey.  When I arrived there, there was an ambulance pulling
away; and I ran up to the ambulance and kicked the side of the
ambulance, and it stopped.  The back door of the ambulance
opened up, and there were people inside strapped to the
gurneys.  And I climbed in the back of the ambulance and laid
the Brandon Denny boy on a man's stomach who was tied to a
gurney and he put his arms over him and cradled him.  And I
told him good-bye and went back to the building.
Q.  What did you do when you approached the building this last
time?
A.  I approached the same area, and a lot more rescue workers
had entered that area.  I was handed another body during this
time span, which was not living.  I placed it in the plaza.  I
entered back into the building, and the fire department had
located a victim laying in a hole between the elevator shaft
and the pit.  There was a 6-inch sewer pipe that extend over
the top of this that was dangling over the firemen, and they
put me up on a pile of debris and braced my legs while I had
held the pipe, while they removed a lady from the hole.
Q.  Later that morning, did they tell you you had to leave?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Officer Prokop, were you injured in the bombing?
A.  We were taken to the hospital and we had problems



                      Alan Prokop - Direct
breathing, yes, sir.
Q.  When you say "we," you're talking about you?
A.  Yes, sir, me.
Q.  What hospital did you go to?
A.  Baptist, sir.
Q.  Have you -- has this event, the events you've described,
caused you problems?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  You have nightmares?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  What is your nightmare about?
A.  I see the people coming towards us wanting help, and there
weren't enough of us.  There was no way that we could be
trained for this kind of catastrophe, and there were not enough
of us, sir.
         MR. RYAN:  That's all I have, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Any cross-examination?
         MR. BURR:  No.
         THE COURT:  Witness excused?
         MR. RYAN:  Yes, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  You may step down.  You're excused.
         You may step down.  You're excused.
         THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
         MR. HARTZLER:  Government calls Diane Leonard.
         THE COURT:  All right.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right
hand, please.
    (Sonja Diane Leonard affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and

spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  Sonja Diane Leonard, L-E-O-N-A-R-D.
         THE COURT:  Mr. Mackey.
         MR. MACKEY:  Thank you, your Honor.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q.  Good morning, Mrs. Leonard.
A.  Good morning.
Q.  Would you tell the jury where you're from, born and raised.
A.  I'm from Oklahoma.  I was born and raised in Tulsa, and I
now live in Edmond, Oklahoma, which is a suburb of Oklahoma
City.
Q.  And were you once married to a man named Donald Leonard?
A.  Yes, sir, I was.
Q.  And are you his widow?
A.  Yes, I am.
Q.  Mrs. Leonard, tell the jury when you and Don were married.
A.  We were married in 1974, in November of 1974.
Q.  And he died in the Oklahoma City bombing in April of '95?
A.  Yes, he did.



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
Q.  Did Mr. Leonard have children from a previous marriage?
A.  Yes, he did, three boys.
Q.  What are their names?
A.  Brad, Jason, and Tim.
Q.  And how old were those men or those boys at the time of
your marriage to Don?
A.  Three, four and seven -- I'm sorry.  Six.
Q.  Did you and Don have children of your own?
A.  No, we did not.
Q.  Describe what role you and Don played in raising Brad and
Jason and Tim.
A.  Well, Don was in touch with them every week, of course.  He
talked to them all the time, and we had them for the holidays,
during Christmastime and we had them in the summers.  And they
are my stepsons; however, they let me call them my sons.
Q.  And how old were they at the time of Don's death
approximately?
A.  If I can think.
         23 -- no, they're 21, 22 and 24.
Q.  And how old was Don at the time of his death?
A.  50.
Q.  Ms. Leonard, there should be a photograph up there on the
stand.  It's marked Government's Exhibit 1452.  Is that a
photograph of you and Don and the three boys taken maybe two or
three years before his death?



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
A.  Yes, it is.
         MR. MACKEY:  Your Honor, I'd like to admit this and
display it to the jury.
         MR. NIGH:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  1452 is received.  May be published.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q.  Mrs. Leonard, could you tell us who this gentleman with the
beard is on the left-hand side of the photograph.
A.  That's my husband, Don.
Q.  And moving from his left, who is that young man next to
him?
A.  That's the baby, Tim.
Q.  And the gentleman next to him?
A.  The middle one, Jason.
Q.  And who is on the far side?
A.  That's the oldest, Brad.
Q.  And this is you depicted with those four?
A.  Yes.
Q.  With this photograph in mind, Ms. Leonard, could you tell
the jury just in very brief snapshot terms the personality of
Don Leonard.
A.  Don was a very sensitive, warm individual.  He was a very
positive thinker.  I remember the Saturday before the bombing,
he and I were working in the backyard and we took a break for
lunch, and I was stupidly complaining about what I thought had



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
been a hard week the week before.
         And what he said to me was, "Everything is attitude,
attitude, attitude.  And if you approach anything with the
right attitude, it will be easier."
         And I've clung to those words the last two years, and
they've helped a lot.
Q.  And does that story you've shared with the jury exemplify
your husband's life?
A.  Yes, it does.
Q.  Let's talk about his career, Mrs. Leonard.  He was a Secret
Service agent for a number of years?
A.  Right.
Q.  And before, in fact, you met him; is that right?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Let me show you an exhibit that's been previously admitted
into evidence, Government's Exhibit 1179.
         I'm not sure you can read this so small, but you'll
see the date up here on the right-hand corner.  It's
November 5, 1970?
A.  Correct.
Q.  And it's addressed to Mr. Leonard, Donald Leonard, in
Oklahoma City; correct?
A.  That's correct.
Q.  And you'll see that it's a letter to him announcing his
appointment as a Secret Service agent.



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
A.  That's correct.
Q.  And what salary did Mr. -- your husband start with when he
was first appointed as a Secret Service agent in 1970?
A.  $6,548 per annum.
Q.  Tell the jury where Mr. Leonard was from.
A.  He was from Oklahoma City.  He was born at St. Anthony's
Hospital just a few blocks from the building.
Q.  And after he graduated from high school, did he go into the
military?
A.  Yes, he did.  He served in the U.S. Army.
Q.  And was he in Vietnam?
A.  Yes, he was.
Q.  What was his assignment while he was in the U.S. Army?
A.  He ended up being an MP; and he had a security clearance,
and he escorted nuclear weapons.
Q.  Upon his return from the military, did he go back to
Oklahoma City?
A.  Yes, he did.  He went back to Oklahoma City and went to
college there.
Q.  And while attending college, was he employed?
A.  Yes, he was.
Q.  For whom?
A.  He worked full-time for the Oklahoma City Police
Department.  He worked nights.
Q.  Went to school during the day?



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  Did he eventually get his college degree?
A.  Yes, he did.
Q.  And when was that?
A.  That was -- I can't think of the year.  I'm sorry.  I think
that was 1970.
Q.  What was his degree in?
A.  He was -- the degree was in industrial arts.  He had
originally thought he would be a teacher.
Q.  But I take it he turned his attention to the Secret
Service?
A.  That's right.
Q.  How many different cities was Agent Leonard assigned to
during his 24 1/2 years with the U.S. Secret Service?
A.  He started in the Oklahoma City office.  He was then
transferred to Tulsa, Oklahoma, which is where we met.  Then he
went to Washington, D.C.  We were there three years.
         Then we were transferred to St. Louis.  We were there
11.  And then 6 years before the bombing, we were transferred
to Oklahoma City.
Q.  And in the course of 20 years of marriage to a Secret
Service agent, did you come to know what their job entails?
A.  Somewhat, yes.
Q.  Tell the jury a little bit from a wife's perspective what
it's like to be a Secret Service agent.



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
A.  Well, they're on call a lot.  They travel a lot.  He
traveled all over the world.  He protected, oh, all the
presidents since he started, President Nixon, President Ford,
President Reagan, Bush, Carter, Clinton, the first ladies, the
vice presidents.  During campaign, they work with all the
presidential candidates, and they're on the road a lot.  And at
times during campaigns they're working 24 hours a day.  They
don't get time to sleep a lot of times and sometimes don't get
time to eat.
Q.  And presidents and vice presidents have family holidays?
A.  Right.
Q.  And they need protection during those family holidays?
A.  That's right.
Q.  And what is -- what result does that have on the families
of those Secret Service agents?
A.  They're gone a lot on holidays.
Q.  Did Agent Leonard's responsibilities take him overseas?
A.  I think he's been to almost every country in the world.
Q.  And did he share his observations about those world travels
with you?
A.  Yes, he did.
Q.  What did he tell you?
A.  He always said that there was no place that even compared
to the United States of America.
Q.  When was his last overseas detail?



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
A.  He was in Russia in December of '94 with Pres -- Vice
President Gore.
Q.  In addition to the elected leaders of this country, did he
also protect foreign dignitaries when they would travel?
A.  Yes, he did.  He's been with Gorbachev, he's been with the
emperor of Japan, he's been with the Marcos family, Aristide,
lots of foreign dignitaries in 20 years.
Q.  This must seem like an obvious question, but did you worry
about him when he was on travel and on protection details?
A.  Yes, I did.  There were some projects that were especially
of concern to me.  He was with Ted Kennedy when he was running
for office, and I was very fearful at that time; and I was
especially fearful when he was with Aristide.
Q.  And in 24 years of travels around the world and through
this country, he escaped any injury?
A.  Yes, he did.
Q.  Ms. Leonard, when did you worry least about the safety of
your husband?
A.  When he was in his office.
Q.  In Oklahoma City?
A.  Yes.
Q.  In addition to the protection requirements of his job, did
he have other law enforcement obligations?
A.  Yes, he did.
Q.  What were those?



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
A.  They work theft of government securities and counterfeit.
Q.  Other federal crimes that he would be responsible for
investigating?
A.  Right.
Q.  Now, over the years with the Secret Service, did he acquire
any nicknames among his agents, agent friends?
A.  Yes, he did.
Q.  What was that?
A.  OC, which stood for "Oklahoma crude."
Q.  "Oklahoma crude"?
A.  Uh-huh.
Q.  As in oil?
A.  Right.
Q.  And what was that supposed to represent about Donald
Leonard?
A.  Well, he was very proud of being an Oklahoman, and I think
he got that nickname when he was on the vice presidential
detail in Washington.  He always talked about Oklahoma and how
much he loved it.  In fact, after the bombing one of the -- one
of our agents that was working in the building to help recover
different things had told me that he now understood why Don
loved Oklahoma so much and wanted to come back home.
Q.  Was part of that love a reason why he was engaged in
community organizations and that sort of thing, like the Native
American Law Enforcement Officer Association?



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
A.  Right.  He recently, just in the last few years, found that
he was part Native American.  He had always loved Native
American art, and I guess he never really knew why; but he just
found out just a few years before he died, and he was very
proud of that.
Q.  Let's turn our attention now, Mrs. Leonard, to the week of
the bombing.  Where were the boys during that week?
A.  The oldest lives in Oklahoma City.  He was there.  The
youngest was living with us; and the middle son, Jason, was
home from college for the Easter holiday, so he was there.
Q.  During Jason's visit home that week, did he ask his father
about playing golf?
A.  Yes, he did.  The morning of the 19th, he asked Don if he
could take off that morning, take some leave and go play golf.
         And Don told him he couldn't because he had to be in
Tulsa the next day with Mrs. Bush and he had to prepare for
that.
Q.  So instead of playing golf, he went downtown to Oklahoma
City to prepare for the next day's detail?
A.  Yes, he did.
Q.  With Mrs. Bush.
         Where were you on the first few days of that week?
A.  I was working in Tulsa, Oklahoma, which is about 100 miles
from Oklahoma City.
Q.  And what were you doing there?



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
A.  I was a sales rep. at the time, and I covered Oklahoma and
Arkansas.  And I was working with customers that day.
Q.  In your job at that time, was it common for you to be on
the road a lot?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And what routine did you and Don have in terms of nightly
communications?
A.  Whoever was out of town would call home about 10:00 at
night.  We always -- every day, checked in with each other,
unless he was out of the country, and then he had to call just
when he could.
Q.  When did you last speak to your husband?
A.  10 p.m., April 19 -- April 18.  I'm sorry.
Q.  When you were in Tulsa and he was in Oklahoma City?
A.  Right.
Q.  On the morning of the bombing, were you with a customer in
Tulsa?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And did you come to learn of the news of the bombing in
downtown Oklahoma City?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  And how and when did that happen?
A.  I walked into a customer's store and she asked if I had
heard about the explosion in Oklahoma City, and I had not had
my radio on that morning when I was in the car; and I told her



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
no.
         And she said, "Do you know anybody --"
         I said, "Where was it?"
         And she told me, "Downtown.  Did you know anyone who
worked downtown?"
         And I said, "Well, my husband does.  Where was it?"
         And she said, "It was at the federal building."
         And my first thought was it had to be just a gas
explosion and Don is well-trained and Don will be fine.
         And I said, "Well, we'll finish what I'm here for
today, and then I'll go home."
         She had seen the television screen, however, and she
worked very hard to get me to call someone.  She insisted that
I call somewhere.
         So I called the -- Don's office and the phone rang,
which -- and was not answered; so that concerned me, because I
know they have 24-hour coverage on their phones.
         So I called the Tulsa office.  They told me six of our
people were missing.  They didn't give me the names.
         So then I called home.  Boys were there.
Q.  Did you talk to the boys then?
A.  (Witness nods head.)
Q.  Is that how you first learned --
A.  They told me.
Q.  -- that your husband was missing?



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
A.  Yes.
Q.  Did you then travel back to Oklahoma City?
A.  I did.
Q.  Did you go home first?
A.  I went home first.  I walked in and saw the TV screen.
Until that time, I had no idea of the magnitude.  I saw the TV
screen, and I had to go downtown.
Q.  Did you do that?
A.  I did.
Q.  Did you go alone?
A.  I went with Don's sister.
Q.  And what did the two of you do in downtown Oklahoma City?
A.  We went to the family center first, and there was a table
there where you just left your name.  And they said, "Wait,
someone will interview you."  And I -- I gave them the
information; and I walked over and started thinking, Well, who
are these people doing these interviews.  So I walked up and
asked one of them, who was interviewing a family, who he was;
and he told me he was a funeral director.
         And I didn't want to talk to a funeral director,
because I didn't need one; so I left.
         And then I went to St. Anthony's Hospital.
Q.  Did you understand that's where the injured were being
taken?
A.  Yes.



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
Q.  Is that why you went there?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And what did you and your sister-in-law do there?
A.  When we walked in, there was a large room where they were
putting all the families and sheets of -- about 3-by-3-foot
sheets of paper lining one long wall, came around the corners;
and each sheet was full of names.
         She started at one end, I started at the other, and we
read the names and we met in the middle.  Neither of us found
any names from our office and so I said, "Well, let's
double-check each other."  So that's what we did.  Still, no
Don or anyone from our office.
         There were John Does and Jane Does on those lists,
however; so I went to someone -- and I don't know who they
were, someone behind the table -- and asked them if they could
give us descriptions of the John Does.  They didn't have them
at that time; and I said, "If you can find them, maybe we can
identify them."
         As it turned out, none of those was Don.
         I was concerned about one of our family members who --
she and her husband had just moved to Oklahoma City a few
months earlier; so I called the boys and asked for her number,
and I called to make sure she had people with her.  Her husband
was also in the building.
Q.  Is that Pam Whicher?



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
A.  Yes, it is.
Q.  Alan Whicher's wife?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Did you --
A.  And then we later went home.
Q.  And at home, were the three boys there?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And other family members?
A.  Yes.
Q.  When were you notified that the rescue efforts had located
the body of your husband?
A.  Friday evening, the 21st.
Q.  Can you describe that to the jury.
A.  The baby, Tim, was sitting on the front porch, and there
were four men in suits that started -- that parked in front of
the house and started walking up the driveway; and he came in
the door and said, "There are four suits walking up the
driveway.  This doesn't look good."
         And of course, it wasn't.
Q.  Until the moment that you were formally notified,
Mrs. Leonard, had you given up hope that your husband --
A.  Not for one moment.  I knew that it would take a miracle.
I knew that, but I believe in miracles; and I knew that if
there was any opportunity for Don to defend himself that --
that he would have.



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
Q.  Ms. Leonard, after being notified that your husband's body
had been located, did you for reasons of your personal past
insist on seeing that body?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  And I don't want to ask you anything about that, other than
that is something you experienced on Friday or Saturday of
April 21 or 22, 1995?
A.  Yes, I did.  I insisted because of a previous experience on
that.
Q.  If you are a Secret Service agent and you serve 20 years,
can you retire?
A.  Yes, you can.  They have a 20-year hazardous-duty
retirement.
Q.  And had you and your husband talked about taking retirement
prior to April of 1995?
A.  Yes, we had.  He could have retired in 1990.
Q.  Why did he postpone retirement?
A.  He wanted to better prepare for retirement for his family
financially.
Q.  Did the two of you have travel plans and other plans that
you would share together in retirement?
A.  Yes, we did.
Q.  Ms. Leonard, I just have a few final questions; and we
talked a little bit about this and just want you to tell the
jury, thinking first about the boys, Don's boys, what you've



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
seen in the last two-plus years.  Can you describe to the jury
your observations of the impact of his death on his sons?
A.  One instance comes particularly to my mind.  Jason, the
middle one, after Don's body was found but before the
funeral -- he came to me about 3:00 in the morning and he was
crying very hard.  And he said:  "I want my dad back.  I want
him to see me graduate from college.  I want him to meet my
wife and be at my wedding.  I want him to see my first child."
         He's getting married next month, and there will be a
rose where his father should be.
Q.  And have you seen both Brad and Tim experience the same
kind of suffering that you've described here?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Let me just turn to you, then, my final question, and ask
you to tell this jury in your own terms the impact of Don's
death on you.
A.  I think the best way to describe it is I feel like I died,
too, on April 19.  I feel like my heart looks like that
building.  It has a huge hole and that can never be mended.
Q.  Have you been forced to undergo change that you would just
as soon not have experienced?
A.  There is nothing in my life that is the same.  I no longer
do the same work.  The only thing that is the same is the house
that I live in, and now it's a house that's not a home, so it
really isn't the same.



                  Sonja Diane Leonard - Direct
Q.  And has your father noticed a change in you?
A.  My father wants his daughter back.  He wants me to be the
way I was before.
         MR. MACKEY:  Ms. Leonard, thank you.
         I have nothing else.
         THE COURT:  Are there any questions?
         MR. NIGH:  No, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  You may step down.  You're excused.
         THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  Next, please.
         MR. HARTZLER:  Jerry Flowers.  Ms. Behenna will
question him.
         THE COURT:  Thank you.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right
hand, please.
    (Jerry Flowers affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  Jerry Flowers, F-L-O-W-E-R-S.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  Ms. Behenna.
         MS. BEHENNA:  Thank you, your Honor.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. BEHENNA:



                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
Q.  Officer Flowers, where do you live?
A.  Oklahoma City.
Q.  Are you employed?
A.  Yes, I am.
Q.  How are you employed?
A.  I am a police officer for the city of Oklahoma City.
Q.  When did you join the police department in Oklahoma City?
A.  November of 1974.
Q.  So you've been there how long?
A.  It will be 23 years in November.
Q.  What is your current rank?
A.  Sergeant, Inspector Sergeant.
Q.  Are you assigned to a particular unit?
A.  Yes, I am.
Q.  What unit are you assigned to?
A.  I work in the Gang Enforcement Unit.
Q.  And what do you do there?
A.  I investigate violent crimes involving street-gang members,
such as drive-by shootings and assist on gang-related
homicides.
Q.  Do you also instruct other law enforcement officers about
gang violence?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  I want to direct your attention to April 19, 1995.  And I
know you weren't downtown at the time.  Can you tell us



                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
basically briefly where you were.
A.  I was at the Oklahoma City Police Department Training
Center, which is in the 800 block of North Portland, about
6 miles from downtown.
Q.  And you felt and heard the explosion?

A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  And then headed downtown?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  When you arrived downtown, do you remember where you had to
stop your car?
A.  It was right at Dean A. McGee and North Harvey, just right
down in the middle of town.
Q.  And that's as far as you could go toward the building?
A.  Yes.
Q.  What did you do next?
A.  Well, I was not alone.  Myself and Sergeant Steve Carson
and Don Hull were with me, and we three got out of my car and
immediately ran towards the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.
Q.  And what did you see as you got close to the building?
A.  As we ran up, we were running up right on the southwest
corner of the building.  There was an ambulance there that was
giving us rubber gloves to put on, and I started to put those
on.
         And the first thing I saw was a lady that was setting
on the edge -- on the curb, right there on the corner.  She was



                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
a lady 35, 40 years old, and she was holding a -- looked like a
shirt, some sort of sweater or something.  She had rolled it
up, and she was holding it against her head trying to control
her bleeding; but what touched me about her was that she was
really kind of disregarding her own injuries, and she had her
arms around a little girl, five-, six-, seven-year-old little
girl who was obviously in shock and shaking and crying and
scared.  And she was really disregarding her own injuries to
take care of that baby.
Q.  After you witnessed that, did you turn the corner towards
5th Street and the north side of the building?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  Did you then enter the Murrah Building?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  What was the first thing that you witnessed?  And, Sergeant
Flowers, let me also let you know without being very
descriptive about what you saw, just generally tell the jury
what you first saw as you entered that building.
A.  When I first ran up to the corner, there was a hole that
was cut out into the building, and there was one of our robbery
detectives by the name of Bob Smart that was yelling, "Let's
get these people out."
         Myself and Steve Carson ran right up to the hole; and
just as we started to go in, we were handed a board stretcher.
There was a gentleman that looked like 35, 40 years old that



                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
was laying on the stretcher.  He was covered totally with gray
dust.  You really couldn't see much of his facial features.  In
effect, he was just covered with gray dust.  But as I brought
him down to my eye level -- we had formed a human chain behind
me to pass him down, because you just walk around like we do in
here.  You had to crawl over stuff to move around.  When I got
him down to my level to tell him he was going to be okay -- but
that's when I saw he had a laceration across his face and he
was dead.
Q.  And you passed him down on the chain?
A.  I did.  Myself and Steve passed him down behind us down
this chain of citizens and police officers that came up, and I
never saw him again.
Q.  Did you then enter the building?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  What room did you enter?
A.  It looked like a storage room of some sort, maybe for a
janitorial service for the federal building.  I really wasn't
sure, but it was a storage area; and we walked up into that
area.
Q.  And that is a room on the north side of the building?
A.  It's right on the very northwest corner of the building.
Q.  What did you hear as you entered that room?
A.  One of the other officers was in there, Sergeant Mike
Goodspeed, was moving debris; and it was real dark, and you



                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
couldn't see; but as we got into the building, we were moving
stuff.  And Mike started screaming at us, "Everybody shut up,
everybody be quiet."  And we all tried to stop what we were
doing to listen, and we could hear a faint cry of a female's
voice.  She was crying and asking for help.
         We started moving debris; and we tried to go to that

voice, but we couldn't find it.  And as we kept moving towards
where we could think it was at, we'd start moving rocks and
Sheetrock, ceiling tiles, cement blocks; and it would cover up
that sound.  But we'd stop and listen again, and we heard that
faint voice keep fading away until, unfortunately, it faded
completely away and we couldn't hear it again.
Q.  Did you find anybody in that room?
A.  We couldn't find her.
Q.  Did you then enter what we've come to know as "the pit"
area of the Murrah Building?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  And can you tell the jury what you saw down there.
A.  Steve and I tried to stay together, and we worked our way
down into this area; and it was incredibly dark.  The dust was
so thick you couldn't breathe, and we -- as we started going
drastically down, the water started getting up, in fact coming
up over the top of my boots that I had on.  But as we got down
in there, we could hear voices screaming for help, "Get us out
of here."



                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
         And as we moved down towards that area into this area
what looked more like a cave than it looked like anything else,
I could see a ray of light coming into the area that was kind
of lighting it up; and I was trying to work my way to that
area.  And as I got closer to that, I could hear these screams
for help, "Get us out."
         And I worked my way over to this hole that was in an
area down in this cave that we wound up in that when you looked
up you could see like nine floors of cratered-out floors that
had fallen, and they were pancaked on top of where we were at.
         When I got to that point, that's when I heard a lady
scream, "Get me out of here."
         I turned to my left, and I saw a lady that was rolled
up in a -- she was kind of rolled up in a ball, like if I were
to take my knees and pull up in my chest.  I could see her
back, and her backside was sticking out; and she was screaming
at me, "Get me out."  She was lodged up in a wall, imprisoned
with this cement blocks that was encompassed around her, as
well as big -- big steel beams of rebar was holding her in
there.  And she kept screaming at me, "Just get me out."
         It was at that point I reached through the concrete,
the cracks in the concrete, and I touched her and I told her --
I said, "It's going to be okay."
         I told her we were going to get her out, but there was
no way I could.  I later found out that young lady's name was



                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
Terry Shaw.
Q.  Did you see while you were down in the pit area -- did you
see another woman who was trapped --
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  -- in the basement?
A.  It was about that time, still incredibly dark.  So
firefighters came in with a generator; and they fired off this
generator, and they set some big floodlights up right beside
me.  And I turned these lights on.  And when I did, it
illuminated this pit, this cave that we were in.  Just about
the time I did that, I heard a lady screaming, "Don't let me
drown."
         As I looked down from where I was standing just a few
feet, there was a pool of water like a large bathtub, if you
will, and all I could see was this lady's head sticking up
above the water screaming, "Don't let me drown."
         I put the light down in to her; and about the same
time, a firefighter was standing beside me.  He ran down to
her.  As he got down to her, he grabbed her head and was
holding her up and she was crying and she said, "Just don't let
me die in here, just don't let me drown."
         She was pinned.  Something under the water was holding
her down and we couldn't get her loose, and I kept the light on
them while they were trying to do what they could to get her
free.



                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
Q.  Did the water stop eventually?
A.  Somehow.  And I don't know how.  While she was screaming
"Don't let the water get over my head," I was even looking for
a water hose to put in her mouth to -- if it did, at least we
could keep her breathing.  But there was nothing.  I didn't
even have as much as a flashlight.  But at that point for some
reason the water stopped, just as it started cresting over her
chin; and it managed to stop there.  And they continued to work
on her to get her out.
Q.  Was there another rescue or body that you were handed about
that same time in the pit area?
A.  Yes, there was.
Q.  Can you tell the jury briefly about that.
A.  Well, as that was going on, it was just about the same
time.  Some firefighters that were on a floor above us where
the hole was where the light was at yelled down to us to grab
this lady, and myself and Steve and some other folks that were
there reached up and grabbed this board stretcher and let this
lady down from the floor above us down to us.  She was a black
lady.  She was 30 -- 30 to 40 years old, and she was totally
covered with gray dust.  And I finally thought for once I was
going to be able to get somebody out of there that was alive;
but unfortunately when they got her down to me, she also was
dead.
Q.  And you helped hand her out?



                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
A.  We made a human chain again over the debris, and we just
worked her way out one hand to another and worked her way out
the same way we had come in.
Q.  And a human chain was used down in the pit area because it
was difficult to get around?
A.  You couldn't walk around.  In fact, when you were standing
in the pit, sometimes you'd have to stoop over and bend over
because what we thought was the ceiling was actually the floor
above us that we were in; and you could reach up and touch it.
So it was debris stacked up and piled up just like mountains of
rubble and concrete and steel rebar sticking up, electrical
lines flopping around and sparking.  It was --
Q.  And it was easier to pass somebody off as opposed to try
and walk out with them?
A.  You couldn't walk out.  You had to pass them out.
Q.  Sometime that morning, were you asked to leave the pit
area?
A.  It was just right after we had took this lady down from the
floor above us when a fire chief leaned down to us and said:
"We found another bomb.  This one is bigger than the one that
blew this place up.  You've to get out."  Of course, not only
did we hear that, but so did the victims that were still
trapped in there trying to get out.  I remember just after he
said that that Terry Shaw, the young lady was down in the --
down in the water started screaming, "Do not leave us.  Don't



                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
let us die in this building."
         Of course, it ripped my heart in two; and I walked
over to Ms. Shaw and I put my hand in there telling her, "Don't
worry, we're going to come back."
         And she was crying, "Don't leave me, don't let me stay
in here to die."
         And it was about that time my partner came up behind
me and took me by the sleeve and said, "We have to go."
Q.  And you left?
A.  And I left.
Q.  You entered the building again after an all clear is given?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  Are you able to make your way back down into the pit area?
A.  I went back in trying to find my way back where I was at,
but I couldn't find it.
Q.  Do you remember where you ended up?
A.  I wound up going in on the plaza side, on the south side of
the federal building, and wound up going in on what I know now
to be the 2d floor.  Myself and Don Hull had met up again out
on the plaza; and as we were fixing to run into the building,
Don made it in, and I was stopped by -- one of our bomb tech
investigators stopped me.  He said, "Hang on," because a big
slab of concrete had slipped and was trying to fall and somehow
had wedged itself above our heads.  And I managed to go on in.
         Just as I started to enter this -- I assume -- I don't



                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
know if it was a door, or window or whatever it was -- Don was
coming back out at me; and he was carrying a blanket with a
small baby in the blanket.  And he walked up to me, and I
helped him.  And we carried this child over to the plaza in
front of the -- in front of the doorway -- what used to be the
doorways there on the south side of the building, and we laid
this little baby down.
         I remember when I opened up the blanket -- we had to
open up the blanket so the nurses could put tags on the
children as they were brought out to identify the best we could
at that time.  I remember looking at this little baby.  And he
was a little boy, about five, six years old, and had he a teddy
bear on his shirt.  And as I looked at the child, his face was
gone; and I wrapped the child up with Don and with the nurse.
We took him over and laid him down in the playground area and
left him there.
Q.  Did you finally make your way back into the building after
that?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  And again, do you find yourself on the 2d floor?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  And are you involved in the search for children in what you
now know to be the day care?
A.  Yes, I was.
Q.  And can you tell the jury what you saw when you were in



                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
that area?
A.  Well, I went back in the same door that Don had just came
come out of, and I walked in.  Just as I walked in, I knew then
I was in the day-care center.  I didn't know it before.  There
were toys laying around, wagons, baby clothes and stuff; and
I -- like everybody else in there, I went to an area and
started uncovering stuff, started digging, like everyone was
doing.  And I uncovered a little baby's foot with a pink sock
on it; and like everyone, I screamed out, "I found another
one."
         Everybody together rushed to this area, and we
together savagely started uncovering this child; and it was a
little girl.  She was a little baby girl, six months to a year
old.  Best I remember, a little pink dress on.  And just as we
got her uncovered -- she was dead.  One of the officers that
was standing beside me grabbed the child and pulled her to his
chest and took her out of the building with her.
Q.  What time did you leave the Murrah Building on April 19,
1995?
A.  It was about 2:30 p.m., after I was working in the day-care
center area -- finally about 2:30.
Q.  What did you do when you left?
A.  Well, when I left, we -- before I left, we removed about
five more babies from that area and then I left.
         I walked outside on the plaza side and leaned up



                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
against a retaining wall.  We were ordered to leave by the fire
department after they got a structured search of the building
put together, and all rightly so.  That's the way it had to be
done.  But I walked outside on the plaza, and I leaned up
against a retaining wall out there; and over here to my right
was the triage center, over here was the babies' playground,
and there were bodies laying everywhere.  And I got to looking
at that, thinking I had a lot of personal friends that was
inside that building.  And I didn't know whether they were
alive or whether they were dead, I didn't know anything, and it
really started to hit home with me that this was family and
friends of mine.
Q.  After that experience, did you drive home?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  And what did you learn on the drive home?
A.  Well, unfortunately, when I was on the way home, I learned
that -- A dear friend and neighbor of mine for 19 years worked
in Social Security office.  Her name was Oleta Biddy.  And I
learned that Oleta had not been found yet.  And I felt
compelled because -- her friend Henry and his kids are very
dear friends of mine to this day -- and I felt compelled to
stop by and visit with Henry on the way home.  And, of course,
I was still dressed in my -- I was wearing jeans that day and
had my jacket on, a spray jacket; and I was covered with dirt
and grime and just -- you name it, it was on me.  But I felt



                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
compelled.  I wanted to stop and talk to Henry, and I did.
         I drove up in front of his house and I got out, and
Henry and his family met me on the front porch.  And as I got
out, Henry embraced me and started crying.  And he told me,
"It's going to be okay."  And I looked at Henry and I
apologized and I told him I was sorry that I couldn't find his
wife.  And all he could say, "It's okay."  And then from there,
I went home.
Q.  And that's where you stayed the rest of April 19, 1995?
A.  Yes, I did.
         MS. BEHENNA:  Your Honor, that's all I have.
         THE COURT:  Are there any questions?
         MR. NIGH:  No, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  You may step down.  You're excused.
         THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.
         THE COURT:  Members of the jury, we'll take our noon
recess at this time.  And we'll be following the usual schedule
that we have at recesses during the trial, an hour and a half,
so a little after 1:35.
         And of course, as I told you earlier, please avoid
discussion of what you're hearing here and anything about the
case.  Put it at rest during the time of the recess,
remembering that you will hear a great deal more.  And you'll
hear from the other side of the case as well.  So avoid
discussion about it and avoid anything outside the evidence and
any communications or publications.
         You're excused now.  We'll say about 1:37.
    (Jury out at 12:07 p.m.)
         MR. NIGH:  Your Honor, can we approach for a moment?
         THE COURT:  Yes.
    (At the bench:)
    (Bench Conference 132B2 is not herein transcribed by court
order.  It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
 
















    (In open court:)
         THE COURT:  All right.  We'll be in recess, 1:37.
    (Recess at 12:10 p.m.)
                         *  *  *  *  *
                             INDEX
Item                                                      Page
WITNESSES
     Diane Leonard (out of the presence of the jury)
         Direct Examination by Mr. Mackey      
         Examination by The Court              
         Cross-examination by Mr. Nigh         
         Redirect Examination by Mr. Mackey    
     Dora Reyes (out of the presence of the jury)
         Examination by The Court              
         Direct Examination by Ms. Behenna     
         Examination by The Court              
         Cross-examination by Mr. Burr         
DEFENDANT'S ARGUMENT ON MOTION TO EXCLUDE WITNESSES      11765
RULING ON MOTION TO EXCLUDE WITNESSES          
PRELIMINARY INSTRUCTIONS                       
OPENING STATEMENT
    By Mr. Ryan                                
WITNESSES
    David Klaus
         Direct Examination by Mr. Hartzler    
WITNESSES (continued)
    Alan Prokop
         Direct Examination by Mr. Ryan        
    Sonja Diane Leonard
         Direct Examination by Mr. Mackey      
    Jerry Flowers
         Direct Examination by Ms. Behenna     
                     PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS
Exhibit      Offered  Received  Refused  Reserved  Withdrawn
1452          11830    11830
1481          11810    11810
1500          11820    11820
                         *  *  *  *  *
                    REPORTERS' CERTIFICATE
    We certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from
the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.  Dated
at Denver, Colorado, this 4th day of June, 1997.

                                 _______________________________
                                         Paul Zuckerman

                                 _______________________________
                                          Kara Spitler