OKC Bombing Trial Transcript - 05/22/1997 15:24 CDT/CST
05/22/1997
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH,
Defendant.
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REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury - Volume 108)
컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴�
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 9:00 a.m., on the 22d day of May, 1997,
in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver, Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK M. RYAN, United States Attorney for the
Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400,
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
JOSEPH H. HARTZLER, SEAN CONNELLY, LARRY A. MACKEY,
BETH WILKINSON, SCOTT MENDELOFF, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, AITAN
GOELMAN, and VICKI BEHENNA, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
STEPHEN JONES, ROBERT NIGH, JR., MICHAEL ROBERTS,
AMBER McLAUGHLIN, STEVEN ENGLAND, and ROBERT WARREN, Attorneys
at Law, Jones, Wyatt & Roberts, 999 18th Street, Suite 2460,
Denver, Colorado, 80202; JERALYN MERRITT, 303 East 17th Avenue,
Suite 400, Denver, Colorado, 80203; CHERYL A. RAMSEY, Attorney
at Law, Szlichta and Ramsey, 8 Main Place, Post Office Box
1206, Stillwater, Oklahoma, 74076, and CHRISTOPHER L. TRITICO,
Attorney at Law, Essmyer, Tritico & Clary, 4300 Scotland,
Houston, Texas, 77007, appearing for Defendant McVeigh.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 9:00 a.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
Good morning. Are we ready for the jury?
MR. JONES: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
(Jury in at 9:00 a.m.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, good morning.
We're ready to resume testimony in this case and ask
for counsel for the defense to call the next witness.
MR. JONES: Mr. Dan Harris.
THE COURT: All right.
(Dan Harris affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your first -- full name for the record
and spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Dan Harris, H-A-R-R-I-S.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Jones.
MR. JONES: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Mr. Harris, where do you live?
A. Enid, Oklahoma.
Q. You and I are friends?
A. Correct.
Q. And for many years neighbors?
A. Correct.
Q. Mr. Harris, what is your occupation or employment?
A. I'm an architect, self-employed.
Q. And where did you obtain your education to be an architect?
Dan Harris - Direct
A. Oklahoma State University.
Q. And what year did you graduate?
A. 1961.
Q. And upon your graduation, did you subsequently set for an
examination to become a licensed and professional architect in
the state of Oklahoma?
A. In 1965.
Q. And have you been practic -- well, first of all, are you a
licensed and professional architect?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And have you been in practice since 1965?
A. Yes. I've been in the field since then.
Q. And has your practice been both institutional and private?
A. Yes, it has.
Q. And would you tell us a little bit about your employment
experience.
A. I was employed by two architectural firms in Enid before I
opened my own office in 1971 and have pretty well general
experience in all phases of commercial, industrial, and
residential work.
Q. Did you also work for Oklahoma State University for a
while?
A. At -- yes. As a -- since 1971, I've both been in the
private practice as well as done some architectural consulting
work for Oklahoma State University and Conoco.
Dan Harris - Direct
Q. Mr. Harris, at my request, did you make certain maps and
models of places or buildings important to this case?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And specifically, were you asked to make a model of the
Dreamland Motel?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And would you just tell the Court and jury how you went
about that.
A. I was seeking some information and made a trip to Junction
City, Kansas, to seek information of the size and of the
property and the facility. Actually stayed there one night
and -- and took some measurements of the building and some
photographs and built the model from that.
Q. And when did you complete the work?
A. Just barely, about a week ago.
Q. And is the model present in the courtroom this morning?
A. I presume it's under that tarp.
MR. JONES: If I may approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. JONES: With Mr. Tritico's help.
Don't destroy the motel. Let's move it in front of
the jury.
May Mr. Harris step down for a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. JONES:
Dan Harris - Direct
Q. Mr. Harris, would you step down and just look under this
and tell me whether this is the model you prepared.
A. Yes, it is.
MR. JONES: And this is marked as an exhibit, your
Honor. I believe it's --
MR. NIGH: D13, your Honor.
MR. JONES: D13, yes. I move the admission of D13.
THE COURT: Have you seen it, Mr. Mackey?
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I've seen photographs. May I
ask the witness some questions?
THE COURT: All right. You may ask.
MR. JONES: Resume the stand.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Harris.
A. Good morning.
Q. From whom did you seek the information about the dimensions
of the Dreamland Motel?
A. I received some information on the property from the tax
assessor in the county in -- in Geary County, Kansas, and then
I took the other information myself, measurements.
Q. And what exactly did you measure?
A. I measured the front facade of the building and the heights
and the -- and the distances between all the doors and windows.
Q. Your measurements concentrated then on the structures?
Dan Harris - Voir Dire
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Your model depicts an island just outside of
the front office.
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did you take measurements of that island to
assure that your model was to scale?
A. I did not verify those dimensions. I had a drawing -- a
plan from the tax assessor's office which gave me that
information.
Q. Well, if there were testimony that related to events
happening at or near that island, you'd agree it would be
important that that be accurately represented?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.
MR. MACKEY: Let me show the witness the ELMO, please.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Harris, you see before you what appears to be a
photograph of a portion of your model; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I want to focus your attention only on the island,
study the dimensions that you set forth there. All right. Got
that in mind?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. All right. Now compare it, please, to this photograph
previously admitted into evidence, 283.
Dan Harris - Voir Dire
A. Uh-huh.
Q. They are different, are they not?
A. The curvature of the island as it approaches the access
road seems to be different; but other than that, I -- I believe
they are about the same distance apart.
Q. Your island is much longer, is it not, than that depicted
in Photograph 283?
A. At -- at the access road, it is; but I -- I can't tell for
sure. I don't know what the scale of this photograph is
relative to the ruler that was there, but it should be the same
because I took it from a -- also from an aerial photograph.
Q. Well, you took no measurements of the island depicted in
Government Exhibit 283?
A. I verified those measurements from measurements that were
given to me, plus an aerial photograph that was to scale, so I
did not measure it though, myself.
Q. Is it your testimony that the island on your model
accurately depicts to scale the island that exists out front of
the Dreamland Motel?
A. Yes. With the exception of the curvature of the road as it
hits the access road.
Q. Mr. Harris, what's the distance between the sign, the
Dreamland sign, and either end of that island?
A. I did not commit that information to memory. I can't tell
you. Approximately 60 feet, but I can't tell you for sure.
Dan Harris - Voir Dire
MR. MACKEY: I have nothing else, Judge. I'd object
to the use of the model with respect to the island. I have no
objection to the structures themselves.
THE COURT: Well, I don't know what use is going to be
made of the model.
Mr. Jones?
MR. JONES: Your Honor, we're only offering the model
to show the approximate locations of the room and the
approximate location of the island. It isn't necessary for our
purposes it be to scale.
THE COURT: All right. With that understanding,
Exhibit D -- is it B or D?
MR. NIGH: D, as in David.
THE COURT: D13 is received and may be now shown to
the jury.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Mr. Harris --
MR. JONES: If I may ask the Court, may Mr. Harris
come down and affix the sign?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Just take those items with you to the stand.
A. All right.
Q. Just a moment, Mr. Harris, if you will. There should be a
Dan Harris - Direct
pointer there on the stand for you.
A. This?
Q. Yes. Well, no. That's the microphone, I think.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Where did it go? Can you use a
pen?
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Mr. Harris, would you approach the model, please. Now
would you just describe first the numbers of the rooms you put
where.
A. They are on the sidewalk in front of the doors.
Q. All right. Now --
THE COURT: Excuse me. It's difficult to hear.
MR. JONES: I'm sorry.
THE COURT: Perhaps we can give him a microphone.
MR. JONES: Your Honor, may some of the members of the
jury be permitted to stand so they can see it?
THE COURT: Yes. And they seem to have that
understanding already. Of course.
You may do that, members of the jury.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Now, Mr. Harris, where did you put the room numbers?
A. It's -- they are on the sidewalk in front of the doors.
Q. Now, at the actual hotel, that's not where they are?
A. That's correct. They are on the doors.
Q. Okay. Why did you put them down in front?
Dan Harris - Direct
A. Well, the overhang on the roof here was obscuring it so
that you had to be down at a very low level to -- to see those
doors -- those rooms from observing the model.
Q. All right. And you -- I noticed you put something on the
island there. What is that?
A. That's the sign.
Q. And did I ask you to color the model or just to prepare,
for lack of a better term, a rough model?
A. We agreed to prepare a model that was just showing basic
forms and -- and relative distances.
Q. All right. So the motel is not painted white, is it?
A. That's correct.
Q. And the sign says "Dreamland Motel"?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. Now, where is Room 25?
A. Right here.
Q. All right. And where is the office area?
A. This is the office.
Q. And would you point to Room 23.
A. 23? Right here.
Q. Now, you have in your hand certain items. What are those?
A. I have two models of two vehicles -- vehicles.
Q. And what are the two models?
A. One vehicle is just a -- a cream-colored sedan and the
other is a van, truck.
Dan Harris - Direct
Q. All right. Now, those are just representative; they are
not to scale or anything like that, are they?
A. Not absolutely to scale. That's correct. They are fairly
close, but not absolutely to scale.
Q. And did I ask you to get the yellow truck?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then just some sort of cream-colored car?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. You may take your seat, sir.
MR. JONES: If I might approach the model, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. JONES: I have no further questions of Mr. Harris,
your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey, do you have any questions?
MR. MACKEY: Nothing, your Honor.
THE COURT: Is Mr. Harris to be excused?
MR. JONES: Yes, please.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thanks.
THE COURT: Next, please.
MR. NIGH: Herta King, your Honor.
(Herta King affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My full name is Herta Maria Magdalene
King, K-I-N-G.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Nigh.
MR. NIGH: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Good morning, Ms. King.
A. Good morning.
Q. You're going to have to speak up a little bit. You might
want to lean into -- into the microphone.
If you would, please tell us where you currently live.
A. I currently live in Port Charlotte, Florida.
Q. How long have you lived in Port Charlotte?
A. Since July 4 of last year.
Q. July 4 of 1996?
A. Yes.
Q. What -- do you work outside the home in Port Charlotte?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What do you do now?
A. I am the secretary to -- to the recycling coordinator of
Charlotte County.
Q. How long have you held the job as a secretary for the
recycling coordinator?
A. Since November 14, 1996.
Herta King - Direct
Q. Before you lived in Port Charlotte, where did you live?
A. I lived in Junction City, Kansas.
Q. And how long did you live in Junction City?
A. Since 1972.
Q. So a period of 24 years; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. When you lived in Junction City, what did you do for a
living?
A. I was the office manager for Reich's Foreign Cars.
Q. I'm sorry. Reich's Foreign Cars?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that R-E --
A. R-E-I-C-H.
Q. Apostrophe S?
A. Yes.
Q. What kind of a car dealership was that?
A. It was not a dealership. It was a repair shop for foreign
cars.
Q. How long did you have a job with that company?
A. 24 years.
Q. The entire time that you lived in Junction City; is that
right?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Before you moved to Junction City, where did you live?
A. I lived in Germany.
Herta King - Direct
Q. Where in Germany did you live?
A. Kitzingen.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. Kitzingen.
Q. Can you spell that?
A. K-I-T-Z-I-N-G-E-N.
Q. And is Kitzingen where you grew up?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that where you went to high school and --
A. Yes.
Q. -- graduated from high school?
I'm sorry. You'll have to answer out loud.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Then after that, you moved to Junction City or Fort Riley?
A. Fort Riley. For one year. And then I moved to Junction
City.
Q. When you moved to Fort Riley, was that because you married
an American serviceman?
A. Yes. Correct.
Q. Did you become an American citizen yourself?
A. Yes, I did. In 1974.
Q. And then it was during that period of time that you were
living in Junction City?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, if I could, Ms. King, I would like to direct your
Herta King - Direct
attention to the spring of 1995 and particularly, mid-April of
1995. Are you familiar with that time period?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Did you -- do you have a son named David?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And in April of 1995, where was he living?
A. He lived in the Dreamland Motel.
Q. Which room at the Dreamland did he live in?
A. I think it was 24. It was right next to the office.
Q. All right. Do you remember Easter Sunday of 1995?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And what were you doing on that day?
A. On Easter Sunday, I called my son, and he was very
depressed on the phone because his girlfriend broke off with
him. And I told him I was invited to Easter dinner at my
girlfriend, Krista Henderson, and before I would go out there,
I would come by to the motel and I would bring him an Easter
basket.
Q. All right. Did you take him an Easter basket that day?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What was in the Easter basket, if I may?
A. German chocolate Easter eggs filled with liquor.
Q. All right. What time did you go to the motel to deliver
that Easter basket?
A. It was about 12:45.
Herta King - Direct
Q. 12:45 in the afternoon; is that right?
A. Uh-huh. Yes.
Q. Would it assist you in -- in explaining where you went at
the Dreamland to utilize the model that I showed you yesterday?
I'm sorry. Answer out loud, please.
A. Yes.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, may she be allowed to step into
the well of the court to approach the model?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. NIGH: And I think she will need a microphone.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. NIGH: I'm going to ask you to come to this side.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Your Honor, may I stand and observe?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. NIGH: If you'd hold onto that.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Ms. King, if you would, show the jury where you drove into
at 12:45 and where you parked.
A. I drove in right here, underneath I-70, into the parking
lot; and I parked right in front of my son's room.
Q. And it appears that that is Room 24; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. When you pulled in, did you see anything?
A. Yes. I saw a yellow Ryder truck sitting right here, and I
could not see my son's car because the Ryder truck blocked the
Herta King - Direct
view.
Q. All right. If you would, take this model of a Ryder truck
and place it where you saw the Ryder truck that day.
Is that where it was?
A. That's where it was.
Q. All right. You may resume your -- your seat, if you would.
Ms. King, what happened after you came past the Ryder
truck and parked in front of your son's room?
A. I knocked on his door. And he came out, and I wished him a
happy Easter and gave him his basket; and then Mrs. McGown's
daughter came over and she gave me an Easter basket from
Mrs. McGown.
Q. Let me stop you there for a second, if I may. Where were
you when Ms. McGown's daughter came over?
A. I was standing right in front of the door at Room 24.
Q. Right in front of David's room?
A. Yes.
Q. Is Ms. McGown's daughter named Kathleen?
A. Kathleen.
Q. And she brought you an Easter basket from Ms. McGown?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. What did you do after you received that Easter
basket?
A. Kathleen went back to the car, got in the car with her
mother, and they drove by and waved at me and I waved back.
Herta King - Direct
And I talked to my son for a few minutes, and then I left.
Q. All right. You said that Ms. McGown came by in her car?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you tell how many people were in the car?
A. It looked like two.
Q. All right. Are you familiar -- familiar with Renda Truong?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know if she was in the car?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. All right. After they left -- after they went by in their
car, what did you do?
A. I talked to my son for a few minutes, and then I left and
went to dinner.
Q. Easter dinner?
A. Easter dinner.
Q. When you pulled into the parking lot and when you were
visiting with your son, David, and then Kathleen McGown, did
you see any other cars in the parking lot?
A. I didn't notice anything. I wasn't paying any attention.
Q. All right. Have you ever seen pictures of Mr. McVeigh's
automobile on TV?
A. On TV, yeah.
Q. Did you see that car in the parking lot that day?
A. I didn't notice it, no.
Q. All right. Did you see any people in the parking lot other
Herta King - Direct
than --
A. Other than Ms. McGown and her daughter and my son and me,
there were no people.
Q. Was there anybody around the Ryder truck that you saw that
day?
A. There was nobody around.
Q. Did you come back to the Dreamland Motel on Easter Sunday?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What time was that?
A. It must have been between 7 and 8.
Q. What was your purpose in coming by between 7 and 8 p.m.?
A. I brought my son Easter dinner from my girlfriend.
Q. From your girlfriend?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you have some leftovers? Is that what happened?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. How long did you stay that time?
A. About 10 minutes. That's all.
Q. Delivered the food?
A. Put it in the refrigerator in the lobby, and then I left.
Q. So you didn't take it into David's room? You took it into
the lobby?
A. I went to his room and knocked on the door and said,
"David, I brought you some food."
And he said, "I'm not hungry right now. Please put it
Herta King - Direct
in the refrigerator in Lea's office," and that's what I did.
Q. Lea is Ms. McGown?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did you see the Ryder truck when you came back
in the evening?
A. I didn't see it, no.
Q. Did you see any cars?
A. There were cars, but please don't ask me what kind because
I don't remember.
Q. All right. I won't. I can't promise you that nobody else
will.
Did you -- did you work on the following day, on
Monday?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you go to the Dreamland Motel on Monday?
A. No, I was nowhere near the Dreamland Motel on Monday.
Q. Do you -- on April 17, Monday, you didn't go to the
Dreamland?
A. No.
Q. Ms. King, is -- is there any question in your mind about
what day it was when you saw the Ryder truck at the Dreamland
Motel?
A. There's no question in my mind, it was Easter Sunday.
MR. NIGH: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
Herta King - Direct
MR. NIGH: I'm sorry. I may have something else.
I do very briefly.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Ms. King, your son's name is David King; is that right?
A. Yes, it is. Uh-huh.
Q. And between the period of April 14 and April 20 of 1995,
was he living at the Dreamland Motel?
A. Yes, he was.
MR. NIGH: Now that's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Orenstein? Do you have
questions?
MR. ORENSTEIN: May I proceed, your Honor?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Good morning, Mrs. King.
A. Good morning.
Q. Now, you were asked if you -- by Mr. Nigh if you've seen
pictures of Mr. McVeigh's car on TV?
A. On TV.
Q. Have you also seen pictures of Mr. McVeigh on TV?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And I take it you never saw him yourself in person?
A. No.
Q. Now, you've been -- you've been at the Dreamland many
times?
Herta King - Cross
A. Many, many times, yes.
Q. And you've been friends with Mrs. McGown for about how
long?
A. For about 20 years.
Q. And during that period, you often had occasion to visit her
at the Dreamland, did you?
A. I visited Mrs. McGown about two or three times a week.
Q. Pret -- pretty much every week?
A. Yes.
Q. And in fact, you'd been at Mrs. McGown's motel during the
week leading up to Easter; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that includes the Friday night, Good Friday?
A. Good Friday.
Q. That was your son's birthday; correct?
A. That was Mrs. McGown's son's birthday.
Q. I'm sorry. When is your son's birthday?
A. October 11.
Q. Now, you -- you told Mr. Nigh about a day when you went to
the Dreamland and saw a Ryder truck; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And I believe you told him that the time of your visit was
about 12:45?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. When did you leave?
Herta King - Cross
A. I left about 1:00.
Q. So no more than 15 minutes, starting from 12:45, ending at
1:00?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's the -- the only time you saw that Ryder truck?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you said that you didn't see anyone around the Ryder
truck; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you see anyone in the Ryder truck?
A. There was nobody in the Ryder truck.
Q. Did you see anybody walking towards or from the Ryder
truck?
A. No.
Q. Now, describe as best you can that Ryder truck.
A. It was yellow and it had writing on it. And I don't know
the exact size. It was not the biggest model, the 20-footer,
because I know what it looks like because I rented it myself;
and it was not the smallest one, so there was something in
between. I don't know how many sizes there are.
Q. Now, Mr. Nigh asked you some questions about who you saw
when you were over at the Dreamland the day that you saw the
truck. You saw Kathleen McGown; is that correct?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what -- do you recall anything that she was wearing
Herta King - Cross
when you saw her?
A. She was wearing a -- I think you call it a beret.
Q. Now, you're familiar with what an Easter bonnet is; is that
correct?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you recall her wearing an Easter bonnet?
A. No.
Q. Did you see Mrs. McGown's son, Eric, when you were there?
A. I saw him in the evening when I dropped off the food.
Q. But not that afternoon?
A. In the evening after 7.
Q. But -- so it's clear, you didn't see him during the
afternoon?
A. No.
Q. And did you see Mrs. McGown at that time, during the
afternoon visit?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you speak with her?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, if I may, Mrs. King, let me go back for a moment to
the -- the truck that -- that you saw. Do you recall seeing --
and I know it's been a long time, but do you recall seeing
whether it had a -- a door on the side of the cargo box?
A. I do not remember that.
Q. And I'm not sure if this was said in the record, but you
Herta King - Cross
pointed where the truck was located when you saw it?
A. Yes.
Q. And I believe -- can you see it from where you're sitting
right now?
A. Yes.
Q. That's pointing east; is that correct?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. That's on the east side of the sign on that model?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Now, after -- do you recall the bombing in Oklahoma City?
Do you recall hearing about that?
A. Yes.
Q. And, well, let me go back for a moment. When you saw
Mrs. McGown in the parking lot on the day that you saw the
Ryder truck, you said you spoke to her; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you speak to her about seeing the Ryder truck?
A. No.
Q. Did you speak to Kathleen McGown about seeing the Ryder
truck?
A. No.
Q. Did you speak to anybody about it?
A. No. It was not important at the time.
Q. No reason to discuss it; correct?
A. No.
Herta King - Cross
Q. And you had no reason to discuss it, I take it, with
Mrs. McGown or anyone else prior to the bombing; is that
correct?
A. No. No.
Q. Now, after the bombing, after you heard about that, there
were a number of people, journalists, law enforcement agents,
who came to the Dreamland; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you have occasion to talk about that with
Mrs. McGown?
A. I was up there one afternoon after work like I always do,
and I have coffee; and she said --
Q. Without going into what Mrs. McGown told you, just did you
have occasion to discuss it with her?
A. After the bombing?
Q. Yes.
A. She asked me if I saw the Ryder truck on Sunday, and I said
yes, I did.
Q. Now, do you know if Mrs. McGown has a close friend named
Elias?
A. Yes. Elias Ziegler.
Q. What was his last name, please?
A. Ziegler, with a Z.
Q. And was Mr. Ziegler someone who was often at the Dreamland
Motel?
Herta King - Cross
A. I would say maybe once every two month (sic) between his
assignments.
Q. And did Mr. Ziegler own any cars?
A. Mr. Ziegler owned three cars.
Q. Could you describe them, please.
A. One was a really old, off-white pickup. One was a
nice-looking white car. And one was an older greenish-looking
clunker.
Q. And during the times that Mr. Ziegler was not, himself, at
the Dreamland, where would he leave his cars?
A. He would leave all of them at the Dreamland Motel.
Q. And were they parked always in the same place or did they
move around?
A. No, they were not always parked in the same place. When
there were too many motel guests, then they had to be moved.
Q. And who would move them?
A. Most likely, either Eric or Mrs. McGown.
MR. ORENSTEIN: May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: And may -- this is Government Exhibit
287, your Honor. I have a copy here, and I believe it's in
evidence.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Yes, it is.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. ORENSTEIN: May I publish it?
Herta King - Cross
THE COURT: You may. 287?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Yes.
THE COURT: Thank you.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Mrs. King, let me ask you if you recognize the scene that's
depicted in this photograph.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is it?
A. It's the Dreamland Motel, and it -- this looks like
Mr. Ziegler's pickup, and the white car looks like Eric
McGown's Datsun.
Q. Let me direct your attention to the far right side of the
photograph. I'll zoom in on the -- does that car look familiar
to you?
A. No, it doesn't.
Q. Let me show you, if I may, what's been marked for
identification as Government Exhibit 290.
MR. ORENSTEIN: If I may approach, your Honor.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Do you recognize the scene that's depicted there?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the Dreamland Motel?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And is that a view from the office?
A. Yes, it is.
Herta King - Cross
MR. ORENSTEIN: The Government offers Exhibit 290,
your Honor.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, may I see it?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Oh, I'm sorry.
MR. NIGH: No objection.
THE COURT: 290 received, may be displayed.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Now, Mrs. King, you were gracious enough to meet with me
and an FBI agent last night; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And we showed you that photograph; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And last night, did you say that that looked like Elias
Ziegler's car?
A. The color on this picture is not very good. His car was
light green. This car looks like beige.
Q. Other than that?
A. On this TV screen, it looks green, yes.
Q. So on the TV screen, from what you can tell, it looks like
his car?
A. Uh-huh.
MR. ORENSTEIN: May I have a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. HARTZLER: Could you indulge us for one moment,
your Honor? Do you mind?
Herta King - Cross
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Your Honor, I have nothing further.
Thank you, Mrs. King.
THE COURT: Mr. Nigh, do you have some redirect?
MR. NIGH: Briefly.
THE COURT: All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Ms. King, I'm sorry. What was the gentleman's name that
owns the cars?
A. Elias Ziegler.
Q. Ziegler?
A. Z-i-e-g-l-e-r.
Q. Mr. Ziegler's car that was the older model car: What color
was it?
A. It was an off green.
Q. Off green?
A. Greenish-looking car, yeah.
Q. Was it a very normal color for a car, or was it kind of
unique?
A. No. It was a normal --
Q. All right. Do you know what kind of car it was?
A. I only know European cars. I'm sorry.
Q. All right. Do you know the difference between green and
beige?
Herta King - Redirect
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. If this car were beige, you'd recognize it as beige?
A. Yes.
MR. NIGH: That's all I have, your Honor.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Is the witness to be excused?
MR. NIGH: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Agreed?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Agreed.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're now excused.
Next please.
MR. NIGH: Renda Truong.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, may I approach the model?
THE COURT: Yes.
(Renda Truong affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Renda Truong. T-r-u-o-n-g.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Nigh.
MR. NIGH: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NIGH:
Renda Truong - Direct
Q. Ms. Truong, you have one of those loud booming voices; is
that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. We'll -- I'm going to ask you to scoot up close towards
that microphone while you answer my questions so everyone can
hear you.
Ms. Truong, how old are you?
A. I'm 19.
Q. Where do you currently live?
A. Schofield Barracks in Hawaii.
Q. It's a little bit of a distance from here?
A. Yeah. Yes.
Q. You have to answer out loud.
A. Yes.
Q. And you had to fly to get here; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. About how long did that plane trip take?
A. A day.
Q. Are you in school at Schofield Barracks?
A. Yes.
Q. What high school do you attend?
A. Leilehua High School.
Q. Beilahua?
A. Leilehua.
Q. Leilehua. All right. Are you going to graduate any time
Renda Truong - Direct
soon?
A. Yes. I'm graduating this year.
Q. In June?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. What kind of classes are you taking now?
A. I'm taking geometry, English, Spanish, U.S. history, world
history, and guidance.
Q. Do you have a favorite class?
A. Yeah. Guidance.
Q. Guidance.
You live in Hawaii because one of your parents is in
the military; is that right?
A. Yes. My -- my mother is in the military.
Q. And where is she stationed right now?
A. In Schofield Barracks, Hawaii.
Q. I should have known the answer to that. Before you moved
to Hawaii, where did you live?
A. I lived in Fort Riley, Kansas.
Q. Did you live there, also, because your mom was in the
military?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long did you live in Fort Riley?
A. I lived on the base for about seven months.
Q. Then did you and your family move off of the base?
A. My family did. I stayed with Ms. McGown at her motel until
Renda Truong - Direct
the school ended.
Q. All right. And when you say "Ms. McGown," is her first
name Lea?
A. Lea McGown.
Q. Does Ms. McGown have a family there with her at the
Dreamland Motel?
A. Yes. Her daughter Kathleen and her son Eric.
Q. Now, her daughter Kathleen: About how old is she?
A. She's 17 now.
Q. Did you have any kind of a friendship with Kathleen?
A. Yes. She was my best friend. I went to school with her.
Q. Went to school together with her?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, if I can direct your attention back to the period of
1995, in the spring of 1995, where were you living at that
time?
A. I was living at home with my father.
Q. Was that in --
A. Fort Riley.
Q. Was that in Junction City, or Fort Riley?
A. Fort Riley.
Q. Do you remember Easter of that year?
A. Yeah. Yes.
Q. All right. Is that where you were living during Easter of
that year?
Renda Truong - Direct
A. Yeah -- yes, I was living with my dad --
Q. All right.
A. -- at Easter.
Q. Do you remember what you did on Easter Sunday April 16,
1995?
A. Yes. I had went out to lunch with the McGowns.
Q. When you say with the McGowns --
A. With Eric, Kathleen, and Lea.
Q. How -- how did it come about that you got together with
them? I mean, did you go to the Dreamland, or did they pick
you up, or how did that happen?
A. They came to pick me up at my house.
Q. All right. Where did you go after they picked -- first of
all, who was in the car when they came to pick you up?
A. Kathleen McGown and Lea McGown.
Q. Was Eric McGown with them?
A. No.
Q. Where did you go after they picked you up?
A. I'm not sure if we went back to the hotel. I don't
remember. It's been so long.
Q. Been a couple years ago. Was there ever a time that day
that you did go back to the hotel?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know -- is your difficulty in remembering before --
whether it was before dinner or after dinner?
Renda Truong - Direct
A. I can't recall. I'm sorry. I -- I'm going to say before
lunch, but I -- I don't recall.
Q. That -- that's fine. Do you know if it was that day?
A. Yes, it was that day.
Q. On Easter Sunday?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. All right. When you came to the motel or arrived at the
motel with the McGowns, where did -- where did they go, or
where did the car stop?
A. In front of the office.
Q. Do you know what the purpose was for going to the -- back
to the motel?
A. Either to get Eric or to talk to him. I think it was to
pick him up.
Q. Did you see anything in the parking lot at the Dreamland
that day when you were there?
A. Yeah. I saw cars, and I saw a Ryder truck in front of the
sign.
Q. All right. Do you remember looking at a model with me the
other day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would it help you in demonstrating where you saw that Ryder
truck to use that model?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, may she step into the well of
Renda Truong - Direct
the court? And I know that she'll need a microphone.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. If you would, Ms. McGown, pick up that model of a Ryder
truck and place it where you saw it that Easter Sunday.
A. I saw it right here in front of the sign.
Q. All right. You can resume your seat now.
A. What do I do with this?
Q. Ms. Truong, do you remember seeing any other cars in the
parking lot that day?
A. I don't remember. I'm --
Q. Did you see anybody in or around the Ryder truck that
Easter Sunday?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you there at the motel for very long that day?
A. No.
Q. Did you go back to the motel that day after that one
occasion?
A. I don't remember. I'm sorry.
Q. That's all right. Was there any discussion about church on
that day?
A. Yes, sir. I had asked them where they came from, because
they were dressed up. I mean, that was -- when I got in the
car.
Q. All right. And where had they come from?
Renda Truong - Direct
A. They came from church.
Q. What would the following day have been?
A. Monday.
Q. Were you in school at that time?
A. Yes, sir. I had to go to school the next day.
Q. Did you go to the Dreamland Motel the next day?
A. No, sir.
Q. And what would the following day have been?
A. Tuesday.
Q. And did you go to the Dreamland Motel on Tuesday?
A. I hadn't been to the motel all week, because I had to go to
school and help my dad clean the house.
Q. When you saw the Ryder truck that day, did you say
something to Ms. McGown about it?
A. Yes. I had asked her if somebody was moving, and she said
she didn't know.
MR. NIGH: I think that's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
Mr. Mackey?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Good morning.
A. Good morning.
Q. Do you have public speaking in high school?
A. Yeah. But I didn't like it very much.
Renda Truong - Cross
Q. I was going to suggest if you ask nicely, the Judge will
write you a letter, send it home with you, and you'll get some
extra credit.
Kathy McGown was your best friend throughout your
sophomore year of high school at Junction High?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were at the Dreamland a lot, saw her?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Neither one of you had a driver's license; right?
A. We were learning how to drive, actually.
Q. And so you spent a lot of time in cars with Mrs. McGown?
She picked you up, take you back and forth?
A. Either her, or her son Eric.
Q. Okay. And it wasn't uncommon that you and Mrs. McGown and
your best friend would go out to eat?
A. No.
Q. That happened a lot?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Ms. Truong, do you -- how certain are you of
the date it was that you first moved in to the Dreamland to
reside there?
A. I'm not certain.
Q. Is it possible that you had already moved into the
Dreamland by Easter Sunday?
A. No. It's not -- it's not possible, because we had to clean
Renda Truong - Cross
our barracks -- or our quarters before we could leave -- or
before my family can leave.
Q. Your mother had already gone on to Hawaii, and you were
staying behind with your siblings and your father --
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- would follow thereafter and eventually, they left and
you stayed and lived with Lea McGown and Kathy and Eric;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And then after finishing school, then you went on to join
them in Hawaii?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. The event that you described on Easter Sunday:
You're uncertain now when it was in relationship to the meal
that you saw the Ryder truck?
A. Excuse me? I'm sorry.
Q. Well, let me ask you: Shortly after the bombing, were you
interviewed by some FBI agents?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember telling them at the time that when you saw
the Ryder truck, it was after dinner on Easter Sunday?
A. Well, I had read over my statement, and that's what I told
them.
Q. And then later, an investigator from Mr. McVeigh's defense
team traveled to Hawaii and went over that page and a half
Renda Truong - Cross
statement with you there; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And at that time, you said you saw it before you went to
dinner?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. Because when they had came to visit me in my house in
Hawaii, they didn't ever show me the statement where I could
read over or anything.
Q. That is, McVeigh's investigator didn't show it to you at
that time?
A. No.
Q. All right. But on two different occasions, you said
different things about when it was that you saw the Ryder
truck; correct?
A. I didn't say when -- well, in the day, yeah, I had said
different times.
Q. All right. And you're certain as you visualize that moment
that you're in the car, at least, with Ms. McGown, you notice
this yellow truck, the Ryder truck and you say something to
Mrs. McGown; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you're positive of that conversation: "Is somebody
moving"; she says, "I don't know"?
A. Yes.
Renda Truong - Cross
Q. Something --
A. Yes.
Q. You're certain of that conversation?
A. Yes, I'm certain.
Q. All right. Have you ever driven a Ryder truck?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. Very familiar with Ryder trucks?
A. No -- well, the -- the other moving truck, the U-Haul, I
rode in that.
Q. Do you have any idea how many different sizes of moving
trucks Ryder had on the highways in Easter of 1995?
A. No. Well -- what do you mean? On the road?
Q. Yeah.
A. There was no Ryder Trucks around. Only at the motel.
Q. All right. Did you see Tim McVeigh at the Dreamland Motel
on any occasion that you were around that motel in April of
'95?
A. No, sir.
Q. So you did not see him near this yellow Ryder truck on
Easter Sunday?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did not see anyone else?
A. No, sir.
Q. Before the FBI came out to talk to you, Ms. Truong, shortly
after the bombing, did you and Lea McGown talk about the events
Renda Truong - Cross
of Easter Sunday?
A. No, sir. She only showed me pictures of McVeigh and the
other guy. I -- we never talked about it.
Q. There was some conversation between you and Ms. McGown
before you ever talked to the FBI; correct?
A. There was no talking about it.
Q. Ms. Truong, are you as certain about this conversation you
had with Ms. McGown about the Ryder truck as you are about your
testimony that you saw it on Easter Sunday?
A. Yes, I'm certain.
MR. MACKEY: I have nothing else.
THE COURT: Mr. Nigh?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Ms. Truong, the FBI came to see you very shortly after
Easter Sunday, did they not?
A. Well, not shortly. Like a -- I don't know. A week, I
guess.
Q. About a week later?
A. Yeah.
Q. And they asked you questions about what you had seen that
day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you tell them about the Ryder truck?
A. Yes, sir.
Renda Truong - Redirect
Q. Did they also show you some brochures and ask you to pick
out which one it was?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you know which one you picked out?
A. It had to resemble that one right there.
Q. All right. You don't remember the -- the foot -- how many
feet the one was that you picked out?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Do you think it might refresh your recollection if you
looked at the FBI's report of its interview with you?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. NIGH: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Ms. McGown (sic), first of all, I want to direct your
attention to the lower right-hand corner of that piece of
paper. Does it have a space that says "Interview On"?
A. There's a date detected or whatever.
Q. Date. "Interview Date"? Does it have that?
A. It doesn't say "Interview Date."
Q. All right. Anyway, if you would, look at that and tell me
what you said about how long the Ryder truck was.
THE COURT: Well, you mean look at that and then give
her -- give you her recollection?
MR. NIGH: That's precisely what I mean, your Honor.
Renda Truong - Redirect
THE WITNESS: I had said 20 feet, full size.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. 20 feet, full size?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. NIGH: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you have any follow-up?
MR. MACKEY: One additional question.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Just for the record, Ms. Truong, the Ryder truck that you
placed on the model is faced in an easterly direction?
A. Yes. The same way I put it on there.
Q. All right. When you were living in the Dreamland in April
of 1995, do you remember the bridge being out in the road that
fronted the Dreamland?
A. Not in front. On the side, they were doing construction.
Q. The bridge was out, you couldn't travel along that frontage
road across the ravine; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. There were a lot of trucks around that construction site
for a long period of time, were there not?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. MACKEY: Nothing else.
THE COURT: Anything else?
MR. NIGH: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: You're excusing Ms. Truong?
MR. NIGH: Yes, your Honor. Thank you.
THE COURT: Is that agreed?
Okay. Ms. Truong, you may step down. You're now
excused.
Next, please.
MR. NIGH: Lenard White, your Honor.
(Lenard White affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Lenard White. Lenard Dale White. Last
name?
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Yes.
THE WITNESS: W-H-I-T-E.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. NIGH: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Good morning, Mr. White.
A. Hello.
Q. Can you tell the jury and the Court where you live, sir.
A. I live southwest of Cheney, Kansas.
Lenard White - Direct
Q. Cheney, Kansas?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. That's C-H-E-N-E-Y?
A. Yeah.
Q. How long have you lived in Cheney or by Cheney?
A. Well, I was born on the farm out there in 1938.
Q. All right. And did you grow up on the farm?
A. Yes. And I went to grade school out there, rode a horse to
school. I graduated from Cheney High School in 1956, and I --
Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
A. I got married in 1960.
Q. Okay. That -- that's fine. After you -- after you got out
of high school, did you go to work immediately?
A. I farmed for 20 years.
Q. All right. Did there come a time when you decided to do
something different than farming?
A. Farming is kind of slim pickings.
Q. So did you decide to do something else?
A. I -- I started working in Wichita, Kansas, at the
Associated Company as a machinist.
Q. How long did you work as a machinist there?
A. 16 years. I had a heart attack in '91. A few months
later, they give me early retirement.
Q. Well, what do you do for a living now?
A. Oh, me and a couple guys started a machine shop in Wichita.
Lenard White - Direct
We make aircraft parts.
Q. What's the name of your company there in Wichita?
A. Aerotech Engineering.
Q. Aerotech Engineering?
A. Yes.
Q. And it's you and two other fellows --
A. Yes.
Q. -- that own and operate that business?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Mr. White, what I'd like to do is direct your
attention back to the spring of 1995. Are you familiar with
that time period?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have an occasion during the month of April to go to
Junction City, Kansas?
A. Yes. My son just got an honorable discharge from the
service and he was living up there, and I went to visit him and
my new grandson.
Q. What part of the month did that happen in?
A. Well, we went up there the Saturday before Easter.
Q. Would that have been April 15, 1995?
A. I guess so. I believe --
Q. I'm sorry?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Was your son stationed at Fort Riley --
Lenard White - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. -- during that period of time?
A. Before that.
Q. And during that period of time, as well?
A. He had just got out of the service.
Q. I see.
A. He had a job up there and . . .
Q. Still living in the area?
A. Still living in Junction City.
Q. Who did you travel to Junction City with?
A. My wife, Lynn White -- Diana Lynn White.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. Diana Lynn White.
Q. At -- what time did you leave Cheney or Wichita, wherever
you went from?
A. Oh, we -- we left Cheney and Wichita and Abilene and
shortcut up to Junction City. We got up there and ate with my
son and spent the afternoon. And my daughter-in-law, she had
to baby-sit that night, so my wife and I, we decided to get a
motel room.
Q. All right. Let me show you, if I may, what's previously
been admitted into evidence, Government's Exhibit 287.
MR. NIGH: May I publish that, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. NIGH:
Lenard White - Direct
Q. Is that the motel you stayed in? It should be on the
television screen.
A. Yes. Yes, it is.
Q. All right. And what time did you arrive at the Dreamland?
A. It was still light. It was -- it was getting close to
evening, but it was still -- still light. Oh, I don't know
what time it was.
Q. Early evening?
A. Yes. Early evening, yes.
Q. All right. Do you remember which room you stayed in?
A. 29.
Q. All right. When you got there that evening, did you stay
in the motel all night or did you go out again, or how did --
A. We stayed in the motel. We were kind of tired and we -- we
drove up and parked in front of the -- the room. And we
noticed a hunter green Jeep Grand Cherokee next to us. With --
Q. All right. Let me stop you for a second. That was that
evening, Saturday?
A. That evening, that evening.
Q. All right. Any reason that a hunter green Jeep Grand
Cherokee would attract your attention?
A. Yes. Because that was the color we wanted to get our van
and we couldn't get that color.
Q. I see. What kind of van did you get?
A. Chevrolet. Got kind of a teal blue instead of the hunter
Lenard White - Direct
green.
Q. All right. Did you see anything else of note in the
parking lot that evening?
A. I never noticed anything.
Q. All right. Were there any Ryder trucks in the parking lot?
A. No. None.
Q. Were there any other cars that you noticed that evening?
A. There was cars there, but I never paid much attention.
Q. Was there anything -- any -- were there any distinctive
cars there that night that you remember?
A. No. I just was kind of tired and wanted to go in and watch
TV and go to bed.
Q. All right. So is that what you did?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. When you got up the next morning, what did you
do? Easter Sunday.
A. Usually, we hope -- the motel operator, she has coffee and
some -- some pastries or stuff; so my wife, she went over --
well --
Q. Do you want --
A. Get the monitor?
Q. Would it help you to use the model?
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, may he step into the well and
demonstrate?
THE COURT: Yes. Yes.
Lenard White - Direct
MR. NIGH: He will need a microphone.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. If you can --
MR. ORENSTEIN: Your Honor, may I stand?
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. If you can, Mr. White, stand to the side of the model so
you don't have your back to the jury.
Mr. White, if you would -- let's wait for
Mr. Orenstein.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thanks.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Show us where you -- which room you were in.
A. 29 right here.
Q. All right. And that morning, what did you do?
A. Well, I stayed in bed. My wife, she said, "Well, I'm going
to go down and get some coffee and some pastries or -- Lea said
she was going to make some stuff for Easter. So she went and
got some pastries and coffee.
Q. All right. Let me ask you, Mr. White, did you ever leave
the motel room that morning?
A. Only when I left.
Q. Okay. Tell the jury what happened -- what you saw when you
left.
A. Well, my wife, when she came back --
Q. I don't want to know what your wife said to you. I want to
Lenard White - Direct
know what you did and what you saw.
A. When -- when I left?
Q. Yes.
A. Okay. I -- I backed the van up here, we loaded up, backed
the van. And we -- we drove up here to the office, and we
turned the key in.
Q. All right.
A. And --
Q. Did you see anything in the parking lot?
A. Such as? I seen no Ryder truck.
Q. Okay. That's fine.
A. But -- but I noticed right here parked fairly close to the
office, there was a -- a yellow -- an old -- an old, yellow
Mercury car. And it was very similar to the ones -- one we
had, and we done taken it down to pasture and kind of done it
in. Well, anyway, it -- it had an Arizona tag on it.
Q. All right.
A. And I --
Q. Let me stop you for a second. There is a model of a car
here. Would you place the model of the car on the model of the
Dreamland where you saw the old car that morning?
A. Oh, in this general area right here.
Q. All right. Now, if you would go ahead and take your seat
again.
Mr. White, about what time of the morning was that you
Lenard White - Direct
saw that?
A. Oh, it was about 10 or 10:30, somewhere along there.
Q. You said that you noticed the plate on the car?
A. Yes.
Q. What kind of plate was it?
A. Arizona tag.
Q. You also said what kind of a car it was. What kind of car
was it?
A. It was a Mercury, an old Mercury.
Q. Did you recognize it as a Mercury or have you learned that
since then?
A. Well, it was a Ford product, you know, and --
Q. All right. I want to show you another exhibit that's been
admitted into evidence, Government's Exhibit 290; and it would
be on the TV screen in front of you.
A. Okay.
Q. Can you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the car that you saw?
A. Well, I'll tell you what, I seen it from the back.
Q. All right. Does this look like it, or does it not look
like it?
A. Similar, yeah.
Q. All right. Let me show you --
MR. NIGH: And if I could -- may I only publish this
Lenard White - Direct
to the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: All right.
MR. NIGH: Different exhibit. This is Defendant's
Exhibit F15. And if I may show the Government.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Do you see that on your TV screen, Mr. White?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the car that you saw?
A. Yes.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission of
Defendant's Exhibit F15.
MR. ORENSTEIN: No objection.
THE COURT: F15 is received and now may be displayed
to the jury.
MR. NIGH: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Of the two cars that you saw at the motel room that day, do
you know if it was more like F15 or more like Government's
Exhibit 290?
A. It was like -- it was like the -- the first one you showed
me. The other one.
Q. This one, F15?
Lenard White - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Was there any particular reason you noticed the
Arizona plate on the car?
A. Yeah. The old car was pretty well beat up, and my wife
says, "Man, you've got to see this car. I -- I wonder how they
got that from Arizona, you know." It was kind -- kind of beat
up, and I thought, Well, yeah.
Q. Is that why you noticed the tag?
A. Yeah, really, it was.
Q. All right. Did you leave the Dreamland shortly after that?
A. Yes, we were -- we were on our way back home. It is -- we
turned in the key and, you know, took off for home.
Q. Okay. Now, did you go to the Dreamland anymore that week?
A. No.
Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. White, that Arizona tag, was it
loose, askew, about to fall off or anything like that?
A. No. It was solid. It was solid on that car. Because I
was only probably from here to that desk from the car -- from
the back of the car, so I could -- I don't know what it was
fastened with, bolts or screws or what. But I know it was an
Arizona tag and it was on there solid.
MR. NIGH: That's all I have. Thank you, Mr. White.
THE COURT: Mr. Orenstein.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Lenard White - Cross
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Good morning, Mr. White.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Jamie Orenstein. We haven't met before; is that
correct?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Now, you arrived at the Dreamland on Saturday night, the
15th; is that correct?
A. Yes. Uh-huh.
Q. And you previously said that was around 7:30 to 8:00?
A. Oh, that general time frame. It was -- it was still light.
Q. Do you recall saying it was 7:30 to 8:00?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you left the Dreamland the following morning, which
would be Sunday; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall the time?
A. Around 10 or 10:30.
Q. Are you sure of the time?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. You looked at your watch, or how is it you recall
the time?
A. Well, when we -- in the motel room, it's time -- about time
to check out, so I figured we better get out, you know.
Q. So just because it was around time to check out, but you
Lenard White - Cross
weren't checking a particular time, you didn't look at your
watch, didn't time it in any way; correct?
A. No.
Q. And that was about two years ago?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, I believe you told Mr. Nigh that you don't recall ever
seeing a Ryder truck while you were there?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Didn't see one Saturday -- I'm sorry. You have to answer
out loud.
A. No.
Q. Didn't see one Friday -- I'm sorry. Saturday night?
A. No.
Q. And you didn't see one Sunday morning while you were there?
A. No.
Q. Now, this was two years ago; correct --
A. Uh-huh.
Q. -- that you saw something at the Dreamland? You have to
answer out loud.
A. Yes.
Q. And would it be fair to say that your memory of the events
that took place at the Dreamland was fresher back in 1995 than
it is today?
A. Was it fresher then than today?
Q. Yeah.
Lenard White - Cross
A. No.
Q. Is your memory -- are you saying that your memory is better
today than it was two years ago?
A. No.
Q. All right. Now, do you recall being interviewed by an
agent of the FBI in 1995 and being asked questions about your
stay at the Dreamland?
A. By the FBI, yes.
Q. And when you spoke to the -- to the FBI agent, did you tell
him the make of the car that you saw?
A. I was never asked that I recall.
Q. Now, do you recall telling the -- the FBI agent to whom you
spoke back in 1995 that you saw an old car in the parking lot,
but that you could not provide a description?
A. I don't recall that.
MR. ORENSTEIN: All right.
May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
Do you want him to read something?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Yes.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Direct your attention to the 4th paragraph, I believe. And
the second sentence in the 4th paragraph. Do you see that?
A. "He did --"
THE COURT: No. He -- not read it out loud. Just
Lenard White - Cross
look at it.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Does that refresh your recollection that when you met with
an agent of the FBI in 1995, you told him that you did see an
old car in the parking lot, but that you could not provide a
description at that time?
A. There were several old cars in the parking lot at that
time.
THE COURT: No. The question is do you remember
saying such a thing to an FBI agent?
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't know.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Now, how long would you say you saw that car?
A. I really only seen it once.
Q. And about how long in that one time that you saw it?
A. Oh, it was the time that my -- my wife went -- took the key
in to the motel. I was sitting there behind it.
Q. And so long enough for her to take the key in?
A. Yeah.
Q. And --
A. And get some coffee.
Q. Right. And now, do you know how the license plate was held
in place?
A. No. It was firm. I know that. It was -- it wasn't tilted
or cocked or anything else. It was nice and solid. That's all
Lenard White - Cross
I know.
Q. Do you remember any old primer paint on the side of the
car?
A. No, I don't recall it.
Q. And you were not at the Dreamland Sunday afternoon;
correct?
A. That's right.
Q. So you have no idea if the car was -- the same car you're
talking about was there that afternoon?
A. No.
Q. And you have no idea if the car was there any time after
that?
A. I left at 10 or 10:30 that morning.
MR. ORENSTEIN: May I have a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: I have nothing further. Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Nigh, any redirect?
MR. NIGH: Yes, your Honor.
May I approach and get the 302, your Honor?
THE COURT: Well, all right. Yes.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Mr. White, when the FBI came to see you back in October of
1995, were they primarily concerned with the people that you
had seen at the Dreamland Motel?
Lenard White - Redirect
A. Yes.
Q. And is that what you were trying to tell them about?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you ever see a -- a picture of Mr. McVeigh's car
on TV?
A. Yes.
Q. When you saw that, did you make any remarks to your wife
about it?
A. I said that was the car that was at the motel.
MR. NIGH: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any follow-up?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Is this witness to be excused?
MR. NIGH: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Is that agreed?
MR. ORENSTEIN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down and you are excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Your Honor, may I retrieve some
exhibits that are still on the stand?
THE COURT: Sure.
You can leave, Mr. White.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: There aren't any. He's got
them.
THE COURT: Members of the jury, we'll take our
mid-morning break at this time. And of course, it's no
different now from any other day when we were hearing testimony
and any other day while we're in trial, of course, which is
keep open minds, do not discuss this testimony or any testimony
you heard during these breaks with other jurors or anyone else,
remembering that you have to wait until you've heard it all
before even in your own minds you go over the meaning, the
significance or lack thereof of anything that you heard in
testimony or seen in exhibits. And similarly, continue to
avoid anything outside the evidence which could affect your
decision.
We'll take our usual recess of 20 minutes. You're
excused.
(Jury out at 10:18 a.m.)
THE COURT: Recess. 20 minutes.
(Recess at 10:18 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 10:37 a.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
(Jury in at 10:38 a.m.)
THE COURT: Next witness, please.
MR. NIGH: Diana Lynn White, your Honor.
May I approach the model before she comes in?
THE COURT: All right.
MR. NIGH: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Please come in.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Diana White affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Diana Lynn White, W-H-I-T-E.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Nigh.
MR. NIGH: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Ms. White, do you know a fellow by the name of Lenard
White?
A. Yes. He's my husband.
Q. Ms. White, what do you do for a living?
A. I work for the Wichita Area Technical College, which is
part of USD 259 in Wichita. It's the biggest school district.
I'm the data controller and site registrar.
Q. As the data controller, I assume you do a lot of work with
computers?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you held that job?
A. Well, I've worked in that department for 22 years, but I've
had that particular job for two years.
Diana White - Direct
Q. So for 22 years, you've worked for the school district?
A. Yes.
Q. And for two years, you've worked with these computers?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did you grow up in the same area that Mr. White
grew up in?
A. Well, I grew up in Wichita.
Q. All right. And he grew up out on the farm?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that where you went to high school?
A. I went to Wichita North.
Q. Wichita North High School?
A. Yes.
Q. And then after you got out of high school, did you go
immediately to work?
A. No. I went to a business college and took computers.
Q. So you started it right then?
A. Yes.
Q. And then eventually, you married Mr. White?
A. He's a second marriage, yes.
Q. All right. And now you all live in Wichita, or Cheney?
I'm sorry?
A. We live out on the farm in Cheney.
Q. I'd like to direct your attention, if I may, Ms. White, to
the spring of 1995.
Diana White - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. And in particular, April of 1995.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have occasion during that time period to go to
Junction City, Kansas?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Can you tell us what date that was that you went to
Junction City?
A. It was Easter weekend, and I believe it was the 15th on a
Saturday; and we stayed until about a quarter till 11 the next
morning, on the 16th.
Q. All right. Did you spend the night in Junction City that
night?
A. Yes.
Q. What was your purpose in going up to Junction City on that
day?
A. My husband's son had just gotten out of Fort Riley and was
living in Ogden, Kansas, and we went up to visit them.
Q. All right. Did you stay at the Dreamland Motel?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. I'd like to show you what's previously been admitted as
Exhibit 287. Should be on a TV screen there in front of you.
Is that the Dreamland Motel?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And is that where you stayed on that Saturday night,
Diana White - Direct
April 15?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. All right. What time did you arrive at the Dreamland that
night?
A. About 8:00 p.m.
Q. Was it dark yet? Was it just getting dark? Can you --
A. It was getting dark; but there was a storm coming, so it
was rather dark.
Q. Sky was kind of blackened by the clouds?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you spend some night on the town that night, or did you
all go to your room and go to bed?
A. We went to our room and rested.
Q. Did you see anything unusual in the parking lot that night?
A. No.
Q. All right. The next morning, did you go outside of -- by
the way, which room did you stay in?
A. 29.
Q. All right. Did you -- the next morning, Easter Sunday, did
you get out of your room that morning?
A. At about 8:00 when the storm let up, I went to get two cups
of coffee; and the owner said there would be other things to
eat because it was Easter Sunday.
Q. Were there other things to eat?
A. Yes. Yes.
Diana White - Direct
Q. So did you get a cup of coffee for yourself and for Lenard?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see anything on the way between Room 29 and the
office where you got the car?
A. I saw an old, faded yellow car.
Q. All right. Now, I'm going to show you two separate
pictures, and I'm going to ask you if either one of these was
the car. All right?
First I'd like to show you what's been marked as
Defendant's Exhibit F15. Don't tell me if you recognize that
car yet, please.
Have you had a chance to look at that?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. All right. Now, I want to show you Government's Exhibit
290. Can you see the car depicted there?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, of the two, does either one of those look
like the car that you saw when you walked between Room 29 and
the office?
A. Well, the first one looks more like it.
Q. All right. Government's Exhibit F -- I mean Defense
Exhibit F15? Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. That is the car that you saw that day at the
Dreamland?
Diana White - Direct
A. It was an old, faded yellow Mercury. I can't say that this
is it, but it looked like it.
Q. All right. Fair enough.
You've had a chance to look at this model of the
Dreamland Motel that's down here in front of the jury before,
have you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Would it help you to demonstrate where you saw that car
that morning if you used that model?
A. Yes.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, may she step into the well of
the court and may we have a microphone for her?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: May I approach?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Why don't I trade this for this, and why don't you stand
over here where our back is not to the jury. If you would use
this model of the car here and place it on the model of the
Dreamland where you saw the car that morning.
A. It was either -- it was either right in front of the room
or maybe one over.
Q. And when you say "the room," which room number are you
referring to?
A. 25.
Diana White - Direct
Q. All right. And if you would point on the diagram and tell
the -- tell us where you and Lenard were staying.
A. No. 29.
Q. All right. And the way you have this, it appears that the
car is facing in towards the motel?
A. Yes.
Q. That is the way it was that day?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you. If you'll resume your seat, please.
Ms. White, if I understood your testimony correctly,
you went and got coffee and took it back to Lenard. When you
came down to the office to get coffee, did you walk in front of
the car or behind the car?
A. I walked in front of the car because it was still raining.
It had let up, but it was still raining enough that I wanted to
stay dry.
Q. So you walked under the awning?
A. Yes, the eave of the house, the eave of the motel.
Q. When you walked back to give -- take your coffee back to
the room, which way did you walk?
A. Behind the car.
Q. Did you notice anything about the car at that point?
A. That it had an Arizona license tag on it.
Q. When you looked at that Arizona license plate, was it
straight, was it askew, was it --
Diana White - Direct
A. It looked like it was on there perfect.
Q. All right. When you got back down to your room, did you
stay in your room for a while?
A. No. I took the coffee and then I went -- I had told Lee
(sic) I would be right back to get the rest of the food. I
didn't have a tray or a box or anything to get it all in one
trip.
Q. All right. You say "Lee"? Lee McGown?
A. Yes.
Q. The owner of the motel?
A. Yes.
Q. So then you came back to the office?
A. Yes.
Q. Was the car still there?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you walk in front of it, or behind it?
A. Behind it.
Q. Then after you got the food, you went back down to your
room?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you stay for a while, or did you leave?
A. We stayed until about 9:30.
Q. 9:30 in the morning, Easter Sunday?
A. Yes.
Q. Then did you and Lenard leave shortly after that?
Diana White - Direct
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Was the car still there when you left?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there anybody around the car?
A. No.
Q. Did you and Lenard have a conversation about the car?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And would you tell us what the nature of that conversation
was.
A. Well, I have an old car in the dead car pile, a small Ford
that is that color. That was a favorite color of 1977. And I
said, "Can you believe that they drove that car from Arizona?"
And I pointed out the tag to him.
Q. Why did you think it was incredible that they would drive
the car from --
A. Because I have an old car like that in the dead car pile.
I mean it got to a certain age, and it just gave me nothing but
trouble.
Q. Did this car look like trouble to you?
A. Yes.
Q. That was the color of 1977. What was the color for 1995
that you were interested in?
A. The dark hunter green.
Q. Did you happen to see a car in the parking lot that --
A. Yes, in front of Room 30.
Diana White - Direct
Q. Was that the Jeep Cherokee?
A. Yes.
MR. NIGH: Thank you, your Honor. That's all I have.
THE COURT: Mr. Orenstein?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. Good morning, Mrs. White.
A. Hello.
Q. Mrs. White, you were at the Dreamland starting at about
8:00, you said, on Saturday night, the 15th?
A. Yes.
Q. And you left the following morning; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Nigh asked you to step down to the model --
MR. ORENSTEIN: Your Honor, may I approach the model?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. ORENSTEIN:
Q. You noticed, did you not, that there is a model of a truck?
A. Yes.
Q. On this stand.
Did you ever see the night that you were there,
Saturday night, or Sunday morning a Ryder truck or a yellow
truck at the Dreamland Motel?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. So you didn't see a yellow truck either Saturday night or
Diana White - Cross
Sunday morning parked by that sign.
A. No.
Q. And you were not at the Dreamland following Sunday morning;
correct?
A. No, uh-uh.
Q. So the car that you've been describing in your testimony in
your answers to Mr. Nigh, you don't know if that was there
after Sunday morning; correct?
A. No, I don't.
MR. ORENSTEIN: May I have a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Nothing further. Thank you, your
Honor.
Thank you, ma'am.
MR. NIGH: No further questions, your Honor; and
Ms. White may be excused.
THE COURT: That's agreed, I take it.
MR. ORENSTEIN: Yes.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next witness?
MR. JONES: Dr. Fred Jordan.
THE COURT: All right.
Dr. Jordan, you appeared as a witness yesterday.
You're being asked to return to the stand under the oath
earlier taken.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Please be seated.
(Frederick Jordan was recalled.)
THE COURT: Mr. Jones.
MR. JONES: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q. You are the same Fred Jordan, M.D., that testified
yesterday?
A. One day older, but otherwise the same.
Q. And you still have those same excellent qualifications that
I stipulated to yesterday?
A. I still have the same qualifications, yes.
Q. Dr. Jordan, yesterday you were called as a witness for the
Government to present certain evidence, and I want to ask you
today about some other matters. And of necessity, some of the
questions I'm going to ask you are a repeat from yesterday but
just to make the record complete.
In April of 1995, you were the Oklahoma State Medical
Examiner; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you described yesterday the duties of your office?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And would you take a moment and tell me what your office
consisted of in April of 1995.
Frederick Jordan - Direct
A. In April of 1995, we had the two divisions: the central
division in Oklahoma City and the eastern division in Tulsa.
And we had at that time 54 full-time equivalent positions for
those -- both those offices, so we had approximately 30 people
in our Oklahoma City office on a regular basis. And in that
office we had an office portion, an autopsy area portion and a
toxicology lab portion.
Q. Now, your offices were located in the area out there by
the -- between the capital and the medical center?
A. Yes. We're on the southeast corner of the campus of the
University Medical Center.
Q. Dr. Jordan, leaving aside for a moment the Tulsa employees,
in April of 1995, or more accurately before April 19, how many
on your staff were pathologists?
A. At that time, Dr. Balding, Dr. Choi and myself.
Q. And would you spell Dr. Choi's name for the record?
A. Yes. Her last name is spelled C-H-O-I; first name is Chai,
C-H-A-I.
Q. And in addition to that, you had some forensic dentists on
the staff, did you not?
A. As consultants. We have a consultant contract with one
dentist at the dental school.
Q. Who is that?
A. Dr. Tom Glass.
Q. Now, when this incident occurred and the explosion
Frederick Jordan - Direct
destroyed the Murrah Building, that was the largest collection,
if I may use that term, of human remains that your office had
been called upon to perform your work; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it true that before that time, the largest number of
cases that you had handled resulted from the tragedy in Pawnee?
A. That would have been in Tulsa. The -- in Oklahoma City,
our largest number was 21 from the Erlich's Fireworks factory
explosion.
Q. That is the one in Pawnee or near Pawnee?
A. Well, it could be near Pawnee. That's right.
Q. And your office in Oklahoma City handled that case, or the
one in Tulsa?
A. We coordinated. It was basically done in Tulsa, but
several of us went up to Tulsa and worked on it.
Q. Now, that was a case also where those individuals died as a
result of the explosion and the fire at the fireworks factory?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was an accident?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It was not homicide?
A. As far as we know, it was determined to be an accident, and
that's the way cases are signed.
Q. And the number of cases that you examined in that tragedy
was 21?
Frederick Jordan - Direct
A. I believe that's correct, as to the best of my memory.
Q. When we refer to "cases," we're referring to deceased
persons?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Now, on April 19, 1995, after you were
notified -- and how were you notified that your services would
be needed?
A. So much happened. I think we were called by the police
about 10 past 9.
Q. Had you felt the explosion?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know before the police called what had happened?
A. We knew there had been an explosion downtown. We weren't
sure of the building or the etiology, the origin of the
explosion.
Q. The Oklahoma State Medical Examiner's office was how far
from the Murrah Building?
A. Probably about a mile.
Q. Now, when the call came in, did you take the call?
A. It came through the switchboard, and my chief investigator
took it.
Q. All right. And what was the information relayed?
A. That the federal building had blown up downtown and that we
could expect between 750 and 1,000 casualties.
Q. All right. At that time, the number was not known.
Frederick Jordan - Direct
A. Correct.
Q. And this information was relayed from the switchboard to
your office?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did you direct be done initially?
A. Initially, I began to put our disaster plan into effect,
notifying first the employees of basically what had happened
and that we would be going into our disaster plan mode and then
setting up the investigative area, setting up -- Mr. Blakeney
had headed -- our operations director, was on his way to
Arkansas because of an illness in the family. And he called
back in and said that he is coming back when he heard about it
on the radio.
So we went into operation to set up our disaster plan,
get our investigators organized, get our Tulsa office notified
they were probably going to have to take care of some of our
caseload for an indefinite period of time, arranged to get the
Family Assistance Center set up, and just basically call the
dental -- Dr. Glass, for instance, and advise him; call
Dr. Snow, physical anthropologist, and advise him; call the
dental volunteers that we had lined up, many from Bone & Joint
Hospital to begin with, and try to begin to line up some extra
X ray machines, as we thought we might need them.
Q. This disaster plan that you spoke of is a plan that you
already had organized and on the shelf, so to speak?
Frederick Jordan - Direct
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it was designed in the event there was a major disaster
such as this, an airplane crash?
A. Thinking more in terms of an airplane -- a large plane
crash, that's right. If you read the original plan, it talks
about using the airport at Tulsa and hangars at Will Rogers
Airport in Oklahoma City; but it was to handle anything,
tornado, whatever happened.
Q. And did you go to the scene?
A. I did not get to the scene until the 21st.
Q. And why is that?
A. Because I was incredibly busy -- I guess a lot of it --
some examination of cases, a lot of it was administrative
details, incredible numbers of calls, questions.
Q. Did you also obtain assistance from outside Oklahoma?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. And would you tell me, please, who responded.
A. We had FEMA responded --
Q. Now, let's say: What is FEMA?
A. Federal Emergency Management Agency -- responded with
probably multiple different units. An example what would be
called DMORT, which is a Disaster Mortuary Unit. Some people
came from the National Disaster Medical Systems in D.C., be a
part of Public Health, I guess. We had all told 11 USAR, Urban
Search and Rescue, teams.
Frederick Jordan - Direct
Q. Are those from other cities?
A. Those are from other cities. They were from -- pretty well
scattered all over the United States.
Q. All right, sir. Go ahead.
A. We had, of course, Red Cross and Salvation Army; and I'm
sure they brought in people from outside.
Q. Now, who was in charge of the operations at the recovery
scene for the Oklahoma State Medical Examiner's office?
A. For our office, Ken Roland was our chief investigator, was
in charge at the scene; and then when he was off duty, Don
Grove, who was the chief investigator from Tulsa.
Q. What were they doing at the scene?
A. They were basically present at the temporary morgue; and
when a -- generally a fire unit or one of the USAR teams
located a body, the body was brought to them. And they got as
much information as they could from the Fire Department and the
team that brought the body to them and made sure the body was
looked at at the temporary morgue, as far as noting what was
there, making sure the body -- that everything that came out
with the body when they received it got transmitted to us at
our office, which is about a mile away.
Q. Now, the temporary morgue was set up across the street at
the church?
A. At first it was, yes; and then we eventually had a tent in
the parking lot. We had 16 members of the graves registration
Frederick Jordan - Direct
team from the military came down to assist with that.
Q. Are you saying "graves"?
A. G-R-A-V-E-S. Graves registration.
Q. All right. And the temporary morgue across the street was
where you had the refrigerated trucks?
A. That's correct.
Q. Approximately how many were there?
A. I think there were two.
Q. As there was a recovery, then the body was moved across the
street?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was that by stretcher?
A. It was generally put on a stretcher and carried to the
temporary morgue, yes.
Q. Now, the purpose of the temporary morgue was what,
Dr. Jordan?
A. The purpose of the temporary morgue was to, first of all,
get the bodies in a secure area where we had control of them
and we knew nothing was going to happen to them; that they
would be in our possession. It was also to hold them at the
scene until we were ready to process at the office so that --
to try to cut down on confusion and to develop a smooth system
of operation.
Q. As you were able to move the cases from the temporary
morgue to your office, were they moved in the same vehicle that
Frederick Jordan - Direct
they were stored in, or were they transferred to another
vehicle?
A. They were transferred to another vehicle.
Q. When they were transferred, though, they were still in the
container that they had been recovered and placed in?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When the vehicles -- pardon me -- when the vehicles came to
the campus of the medical center where your office is, they
were parked behind it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I believe that you told me that at nighttime lights
were placed on these vehicles?
A. Yes. We had National Guard security, and the area was lit.
Q. All right. And that was my next question: This was
patrolled by members of the Oklahoma National Guard?
A. That's correct.
Q. And then as your facilities inside permitted, then the
cases were moved from the vehicle inside the offices of the
Oklahoma State Medical Examiner; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now --
MR. JONES: Excuse me just a moment, your Honor.
May I approach Kathi just a moment?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. JONES:
Frederick Jordan - Direct
Q. Sorry to keep you waiting, Dr. Jordan. I was looking for a
Government exhibit. Let me go ahead and talk about it for a
minute, though.
You will recall that an exhibit was prepared that
showed the days after April 19 and the number of bodies that
were recovered and then the third column, the cumulative number
identified.
A. Yes, sir. I believe I know the piece of paper you're
talking about.
Q. All right. Do you recall without looking at it when you
had completed the identification of the bodies that had been
recovered?
A. Yes. The absolute identification of everybody that we
identified was basically done on May 16.
Q. So within 30 days after the explosion?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was the mission of the Medical Examiner's office to
complete the identification of the deceased persons; is that
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how -- you described yesterday how that was done in
terms of the photography and the fingerprints, and I will not
ask you to repeat that. What I would like to ask you to do
instead is to tell me about the record-keeping, the charts and
diagrams and files that you kept and how that was developed as
Frederick Jordan - Direct
each case was opened and then closed.
A. Okay. When the case arrived at our facility, it got a
folder and a tracker. One individual stayed with the body from
the time it arrived until it went into the storage vehicle that
we discussed at the outside lawn of our facility. That chart
was a manila folder basically, and it had some forms in it.
The body first went to an examination station. An
identification photograph was taken with a Polaroid, and then
the body was examined and diagrams were made and specimens were
obtained for toxicology generally or for whatever purpose at
that time.
All that was noted on that paper. Then all that chart
was closed, given back to the tracker; and then the tracker
took the body and the chart to the next station, which in this
case was the fingerprint area.
Then the fingerprint material was taken. The
fingerprints were kept by the FBI and the police, and any other
information was put back in the chart and the chart went back
to the tracker. Photographs were also taken in that area by
the police.
Then the body went to the X-ray area, and the tracker
stayed with the body and the chart while the X rays were taken.
When that was done, the body and the chart went to the
dental area, and the same process occurred; and the dental
charting was put back in that chart, tracker took that body,
Frederick Jordan - Direct
brought it back to the final station, where the X rays were
reviewed, the body -- pathologist who examined the body --
usually most of us looked at the body at that time and
determined if anything else needed to be done.
When we were finished at that station, the chart again
was closed. The body -- and the tracker took the chart to the
back, the National Guard wheeled the body up into the truck
while the tracker was present, and then the chart was brought
to the front of our office and given to the records secretary,
Mrs. Pat Anderson.
Q. And then who notified the next of kin?
A. Once an identification was made, we faxed from our office
the fact that an ID had been made to the Family Assistance
Center. At that point, a team of people at the Family
Assistance Center, including clergy, a nurse if possible, a
psychologist if possible, and perhaps some other people at the
Family Assistance Center, but those at least basically, along
with a funeral director, notified the individual and told them
they were going to take them to a different area. Everybody
figured out by this time what that meant. They were taken to a
separate room on a different floor, and notification was made
that we had identified their next of kin.
Q. After the identification, the funeral home chosen by the
family called for the remains?
A. Yes, sir.
Frederick Jordan - Direct
Q. And they were then moved and left your facility and went
into the custody of the funeral home?
A. That's correct.
Q. And at that point, then, the case was closed from your
office?
A. Yes. Yes. The case was closed, except for completing the
reports, and so forth.
Q. Yes.
A. Sure.
Q. All right. Now, each of these individuals that were
deceased were also given a number, were they not, for purposes
of internal accounting?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your office prepared some sort of wall chart, did it
not?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And tell me about that.
A. We had -- in disasters that we had done in the past, such
as the one we mentioned, the Erlich's disaster, we had found it
very useful to take some regular brown paper and put it up on a
hallway. Some of us are not in the computer age. I'm one, for
instance. I find it still comforting to use a blackboard or a
chart.
Q. That will come as some comfort to some of us.
THE COURT: He means me.
Frederick Jordan - Direct
THE WITNESS: I hoped it would.
And so we -- we noted on this chart whenever we made
an identification; and that became kind of a focal point for
people, because probably we were over a week into this
operation before we had any good idea as to how many people we
might be looking at. And so we really didn't know. So it gave
people a place to come and look and see that we made an
identification of this person, this person, this person. It
kind of became a point of pride that we had 25, we now have 32,
we now have 37. And it was a matter -- it actually helped
morale, and that was its primary purpose, was to help morale.
And also, it was useful because it was such a chaotic,
confusing time to be able -- My secretary, Sonja Moss, put
those up on the board to be able to just go out there and
quickly look and see, because there was so terribly much going
on all the time, it was difficult to keep it all straight in
your mind as to exactly who was where and what happened.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Not only a chaotic time but, of course, a tragic time?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, your office worked 24 hours a day, seven days a week?
A. Yes, we did. The scene was manned 24 ours a day, seven
days a week. The Family Assistance Center was. In our office,
we had people in the office 24 hours a day; but because of the
nature of the work, it was my decision that a 12-hour shift
Frederick Jordan - Direct
doing what we were doing was sufficient for people to be able
to function well.
And so we basically theoretically ran from 7 in the
morning till 7 at night. Obviously, people were there before
7, and we'd have a briefing in the morning. And then it -- 7
at night was a target. But if we could get the people that
were actually doing the work on the bodies out and home to
their families by 9 or 10, then they came back in the morning
ready to work. But there were people in the building all the
time.
Q. And of course while this was going on, you had your usual
cases?
A. That's correct.
Q. Which had to be processed through all of this?
A. Yes. Anything that had to be autopsied, we sent to our
Tulsa office; and if there was a case, say, of a traffic
accident or a coronary or something that we did not intend to
autopsy -- we did some of those. We would break out of our
routine and examine those at the same time.
Q. Dr. Jordan, I believe I've located the Government exhibit I
was referring to earlier, and 1253 has been admitted into
evidence.
MR. JONES: Can you check that?
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: It has not. 1253 has not.
MR. JONES: Then let me -- well --
Frederick Jordan - Direct
BY MR. JONES:
Q. You don't have it in front of you. Let me put it on the
monitor but just show the monitor to everyone except the jury.
This is Government's Exhibit 1253. Do you see it
there, Dr. Jordan?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. All right. Are you sufficiently familiar with this exhibit
to tell us what it is?
A. I think so.
Q. Would you, please.
A. It is -- it's one of the many summaries produced at some
time by our office. This one is identified as Medical Examiner
Summary of Victim Recovery and Identification. It shows the
date, it shows a number of recovered people on that date, and
then it has an "identified" column that shows how many people
were identified.
It also -- I'm sorry.
Q. Is it accurate?
A. Well, I have not seen this for probably almost two years.
It has some numbers in parentheses, and I'm not absolutely sure
what those are.
Q. I believe they're cumulative numbers?
A. Cumulative? If they are, then --
MR. JONES: I move the admission of Government's
Exhibit 1253.
Frederick Jordan - Direct
MR. RYAN: No objection.
THE COURT: Received, 1253, and may now be displayed.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Now, Doctor, you just explained it to me; but now that the
jury has the exhibit, would you just tell us what it is.
A. All right. On the left-hand column we can see the date
that actually -- it's obviously not always the date of
recovery, but it is a date that apparently is associated with
the individual. And I say it's not always recovery, because we
go down to the 30th and 31st, and we recovered until the 29th.
So the first column is the date.
The second column shows the number of bodies
recovered; and I think Mr. Jones is absolutely right that in
parentheses is the cumulative number.
And the third column shows the numbers of people
identified on those given days.
Q. And the next column identified shows when you made the
positive identification?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And again, the cumulative number?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, do you see down 5-29-95, the number "3"?
A. Yes.
Q. Are these the three individuals that you testified about
yesterday?
Frederick Jordan - Direct
A. No. Those were the three last people out of the building.
Q. After the building imploded?
A. After the building imploded on the 23d of April (sic).
Q. All right. Tell me about that.
A. Well, the building was imploded on the 23d of April --
Q. Imploded. What do we mean by "imploded"?
A. Oh, the building was -- under controlled explosion, was
brought down by an engineering firm so that it could be
demolished and taken away.
Q. All right. And there were still three bodies in the
building?
A. Right. We believed there were three bodies still that we
had not been able to get to, because at some point in time
earlier the building had been declared unsafe to work in by the
engineers.
Q. Now, when the building was imploded, your office knew there
were bodies still in the building.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And certain steps were taken to mark where it was thought
they were?
A. Yes. There was spray paint put on an area in which they
thought the people were so that we could find that area once
the building came down.
Q. Why was the building imploded with the three bodies still
in it?
Frederick Jordan - Direct
A. Because the powers that be -- I think basically through the
engineers -- said that it was no longer safe to search.
Q. All right.
A. And --
Q. So because the building might fall down?
A. Right.
Q. Once the building was imploded, then it was possible to
recover the bodies?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was that done?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. So your office determined that 168 people were
recovered and you identified 168?
A. 168 people, yes.
Q. Yes, sir.
MR. JONES: May I ask Kathi, has 1248 been admitted?
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: 1248? No, it has not.
MR. JONES: All right.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1248 just for you,
Dr. Jordan --
MR. JONES: Well, let me just ask. Is there any
objection to admitting this?
MR. RYAN: Let me see it, please.
No objection.
Frederick Jordan - Direct
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Dr. Jordan, Mr. Hartzler informed me that you may have
misspoken and said the implosion was April 23.
A. I meant May 23. Thank you.
Q. Now, Government's Exhibit 1248: Would you tell me what
that is, please --
MR. JONES: No objection to its admissibility?
MR. RYAN: No objection.
MR. JONES: We offer it.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Would you tell the jury what this is.
A. Yes. This is another working document produced by our
agency that shows -- it is headed "Alfred P. Murrah Federal
Building Bombing Events." It shows, "Summary of Recovery
Dates, Summary of Date Received at the Office, Summary of Dates
Identified, and Summary of Dates Released." So it shows the
date, the number of bodies recovered on a given day, the number
that they were transferred to our facility for examination, the
number who were identified each day and the number that were
released each day.
Q. Dr. Jordan, because of the nature of the explosion, it was
considered early on, was it not, that it could be a criminal
act?
A. Yes, sir.
Frederick Jordan - Direct
Q. So your office was involved also with law enforcement?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have described what occurred at the facilities of the
State Medical Examiner's office once the bodies were recovered
from the scene and transmitted to your office. Would you tell
me what was the established procedure and policy when a body
was recovered at the scene.
A. That the -- that our investigator would be notified and
that the fire -- generally the fire unit, some kind a
search-and-rescue unit would bring the body out to the medical
examiner. Sometimes the medical examiner may have gone in and
looked, but most of the time the Fire Department was very
concerned for the safety of our personnel, and so that in
general the body came out to the medical examiner
representative, information was exchanged, and then the body
was taken to the temporary morgue, where the -- the eventual
placement in the refrigerated truck occurred.
Q. Was there a central place there near the bomb site where
the recovered individual was brought to a representative of
your office?
A. Generally -- generally the individual would go to the area
where the body was recovered, and the temporary morgue was
right at 4th and Robinson; and so it was -- it was basically in
some cases not further than the back of the courtroom to where
they were coming; but our person would go out to that area so
Frederick Jordan - Direct
that the firemen didn't bring it all the way to the morgue.
Our person went out to meet the firemen.
Q. When your person would go and meet the fireman when a body
had been recovered, what steps were taken to pick up and
retrieve anything around the body that might give a clue to its
identification?
A. That would have generally been done by the fireman and/or
any police that happened to be with them in the building. When
we got the body, it was in a bag, and we put a number on the
bag.
Q. And the items that were recovered near or on the body:
Were they also placed in a container?
A. With the exception, I would say, of credentials of the law
enforcement officers and guns. Those were generally taken by
other federal law enforcement people at the time before the
body -- occasionally -- I think at one time, I think in our
morgue facility; but I think otherwise generally at the time
the body was recovered by the fire units.
Q. But even if it was turned over to a law enforcement
officer, what record was kept by you or your office that it had
been recovered?
A. We just -- we just made a note that we didn't have it, and
in only one of those cases did we really have a record. In a
couple of cases, we had names of federal officers that took the
weapons; but generally, the weapons had gone before the bodies
Frederick Jordan - Direct
came to us.
So we don't -- To answer your question as directly as
I can, we don't have a good record of that.
Q. The containers that were used to move individuals and
transport them were given some type of number in large
numerical figures on them, were they not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was that number -- well, what was that number?
A. That was an orange number, and it was just the number of
the body, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
Q. All right. So it was -- was it an exact or an
approximation of the order in which they were recovered?
A. It should be exact, because even if -- as we mentioned
yesterday, if three were recovered at essentially the same
time, it would be 1, 2, 3. Our investigator might number 1, 2,
3. A fireman might have taken the middle one out a minute
before the other one, but insofar as we found it possible.
Q. So the number, if we saw any photographs in orange on these
containers, would be the number that your office affixed to it
to show the number and sequence of recovery?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. No. 5 is the fifth individual recovered?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Now, photographs were taken of all of these
persons. Is that correct?
Frederick Jordan - Direct
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were photographs taken at the scene?
A. Not by our agency.
Q. By others?
A. There may have been some taken by the police agencies, but
I have no -- I do not have those, and I can't tell you which
agencies took them, if they did, or how consistent it was.
Q. So your office took no photographs at the scene?
A. That's correct.
Q. But photographs were taken, as you've testified to, at the
morgue?
A. That's correct.
Q. And by "morgue," I mean your facility?
A. Yes, sir, by our -- yes.
Q. Now, you generally took how many photographs per case?
A. There was one Polaroid photograph taken per case, and then
generally three -- to say three to five very large photographs
taken by the police at the fingerprint station.
Q. Now, were copies of the Polaroids that the police took also
placed in your file?
A. I'm sorry. Polaroids were not taken by the police. The
Polaroid picture was taken by representatives of our university
photography department. They were placed in our file.
Q. All right.
A. And then the pictures taken by the police were placed in
Frederick Jordan - Direct
our file.
Q. So the record is clear, you have made available to us your
entire case file on each individual?
A. That's correct.
Q. And pursuant to certain orders entered and agreed upon here
respecting privacy and protection, we have been furnished
copies of these photographs, have we not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Now, Dr. Jordan, the procedures that you
describe resulted, as you said, in the identification of all
the 168 individuals. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, I'm going to move to another area, which I know you
will appreciate is somewhat sensitive, and that is that in
addition to the recovery of the individuals, you also recovered
portions of human anatomy.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is there a medical term to describe those, or a term
that you use so that we will use the same term?
A. The term that we used is body parts.
Q. All right. May we just refer to it as "part"?
A. Certainly.
Q. When a part was recovered, what was the procedure that your
office used for the identification -- I don't mean to identify
to a particular individual, but in terms of internal
Frederick Jordan - Direct
record-keeping so you could follow it through in an attempt to
identify it?
A. Initially, parts were brought directly to the office from
the location they were found. Very shortly, we -- and I'm
including the -- an area we haven't talked about yet but which
now we probably should, and that is the sheriff's gun range.
Q. All right. Would you tell us about that, please.
A. And at the Oklahoma County Sheriff's Department gun range,
we had what we called a sifting, S-I-F-T-I-N-G -- a sifting
site where all debris was sifted by sheriff's officers, funeral
directors, representatives of our office, looking for other
tissue that may have been escaped -- may have escaped attention
when it came out of the building. Initially -- and I can't
recall for you which pieces; but initially, a couple of parts
had come into the office from the sifting site. We decided it
would be better if they went back to the temporary morgue, and
the same procedure was followed that we had followed with the
bodies.
So they were given a part number, again, 1, 2, 3, 4,
5, and then were transferred to our facility and then were
examined in our facility and retained that same part number.
And the record -- a similar folder, as we discussed before, was
made for each part; and then instead of having a case number,
it was designated as a part number.
Q. All right, sir. Now, in addition to what you've described
Frederick Jordan - Direct
at the sheriff's gunnery range, when parts were found at the
scene and clearly determined body parts, were they necessarily
taken to the sheriff's gunnery range?
A. No, they were not.
Q. Or were they brought directly to your facility?
A. They were brought directly to the temporary morgue.
Q. And in almost all cases, those were larger portions of
human anatomy; is that correct?
A. Many of them were, yes.
Q. And they were given numbers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And treated as a case file, I take it, just as the whole
remains were?
A. Yes. Basically, the same procedure was followed.
Q. Until such time as there was an identification, if there
was an identification, and then it was placed with the others?
A. That's correct. And the files were merged at that time.
Q. Now, without going into unnecessary detail, would you
simply tell me, if you know, the total number of parts
recovered.
A. We categorized 98.
Q. And each one is a number?
A. Each one is a number.
Q. In other words, P1, P2, P3, and so forth.
A. P, yes.
Frederick Jordan - Direct
Q. All right.
A. Yeah, that's correct.
Q. All right.
A. There is a slight difference, because, say, we had, for
example, three pieces of bone that had come in with number,
say, 62, 68, 53, and then the anthropologist decided those
three pieces fitted together, that may have become one part; so
now our list consists of 71. And the difference between the 98
and the 71 is because we have jigsawed some of the material
together over the past two years.
Q. Dr. Jordan, from your investigation and work as the Chief
Medical Examiner, did you determine and find that certain cases
came to your office with amputated legs?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In addition to the surgical amputation of one survivor?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. What was the total number of cases of amputated
left legs?
A. Originally, we had seven bodies with amputated left legs
and eight left legs. And then when the eighth left leg was
identified and placed with the body where it belonged, we ended
up with eight bodies with left legs and nine left legs; i.e.,
we have one left leg that we do not know where it belongs.
Q. And is that still in your custody?
A. Yes, it is.
Frederick Jordan - Direct
Q. Dr. Jordan, you have described -- originally, I believe you
said there were seven, and eight legs.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you just tell us without unnecessary detail how that
occurred in terms of the recovery and the identification?
A. Yes. I think I understand your question. If I start to
stray, I know from past experience you'll help me get back on
the trail.
Q. We'll try to walk it together.
A. Case No. 2404, 9502404, originally was felt to have had a
left leg attached and was released as having both legs. And
that body came out on the 17th of April.
On the 30th, we -- after the implosion, we
discovered -- Remember, Mr. Hartzler corrected me. On the 29th
of May after the implosion, we had three bodies that we knew
were there. The following day, we had another left leg come
out; so at that point -- that accounts for the total scenario.
Q. All right. And how was it discovered that the left leg
belonged to the case number that you gave me?
A. Okay. The left leg came out on the 30th; and by early
June, we were sending specimens to the FBI laboratory in an
attempt to make a match, and we were having very little luck.
And it eventually was identified as belonging to Case No.
9502404 by checking a footprint. The FBI identified it by a
footprint from a birth record in Cherry Hospital, in New
Frederick Jordan - Direct
Orleans.
Q. And matched it to the footprint of the left leg?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And we were advised of that by your office,
were we not?
A. Yes, you were. By me, actually.
Q. That's correct. And an order was obtained exhuming the
casket where it had been placed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was the casket opened?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Were you present?
A. No.
Q. Was a representative of your office present?
A. Yes, Dr. Balding was present.
Q. And what occurred at the exhumation from the standpoint of
your office?
A. The leg was examined by Dr. Balding and by several other
people representing you, as I understand it, and Mr. Tigar, and
that the leg was observed to be not attached. And Dr. Balding
did not feel it consistent with the leg of the individual
involved, so it was removed and the part that had been
identified by the FBI was put in the casket with that body.
The leg that was removed from that casket in New
Orleans became Part 71, and it was sent to the FBI laboratory
Frederick Jordan - Direct
in D.C. for further examination.
Q. Now, the leg that was placed in the casket had previously
had the number P54?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So overly simplified, P54 is placed inside the casket and
in the appropriate manner, and the leg that had previously been
in there that was detached was removed.
A. Correct.
Q. The casket was sealed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And returned to its resting place?
A. With the family present, I think around noon that day, the
15th of March.
Q. And then the new leg is P51 -- I'm sorry. 71?
A. 71.
Q. And it's returned to where?
A. It went to the FBI and then eventually was returned to us
by the FBI.
Q. Now, you were able to match up all of the legs found,
including the amputated leg, with each of its rightful owners,
shall we say, except P71?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And through this day, no final identification has been made
of P71.
A. That's correct.
Frederick Jordan - Direct
Q. Would you tell me, please, how large P71 is.
A. P71 weighs a little over 8 kilograms, and I believe it was
16 inches. I -- that might not be absolutely correct, but it
involves the lower part of the thigh, the leg itself, and the
foot.
Q. All right. So it is below the knee?
A. No, just above the knee.
Q. I'm sorry. Just above the knee?
A. Just above the knee.
Q. And you said it weighed how much?
A. I think it was a little over 8 kilograms.
Q. And what would that be in pounds?
A. If we multiplied by 2.2, it would come out to perhaps
18 pounds, or something.
Q. All right. Now, in an attempt to resolve the question of
the identification of first P54 and then P71, your office
consulted with Dr. Clyde Snow?
A. Yes.
Q. And would you tell me, please, who Dr. Snow is?
A. Dr. Snow is a physical anthropologist that has been a
friend -- friend of mine ever since I came to Oklahoma in '72
and has been around a lot longer than that. He was at the
Federal Aeronautic Administration as one of their resident
scientists for many years and has retired and is now doing
private work as a forensic anthropologist.
Frederick Jordan - Direct
Q. Would you say his reputation is worldwide?
A. Yes, and deserved. Yes, it is worldwide.
Q. And what is his most famous case in your opinion?
A. Oh, I don't know that I dare answer that for him without
getting into some difficulty. He's quite interested in Butch
Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
Q. And also some of the Nazi leaders?
A. Dr. Snow, I think, to me -- and I had a tiny part to play
in this. I think in -- probably his most meaningful cases, if
I may be so presumptive, would be the identification of the
desaparecidos, of the disappeared people in Argentina during
the late 70's and early 80's, when hundreds and hundreds and
hundreds of people were abducted by the Argentine military and
were summarily executed. I've been fortunate and privileged
enough to work some on that.
I think that probably -- I think Dr. Snow's -- I would
suspect Dr. Snow's cases and his -- what is your most
satisfying or most demanding or most emotionally trying case
changes. He is now very actively involved in the problems in
Bosnia, and is actually, I believe, involved in some war crimes
trials.
Q. He consulted with your office in an attempt to resolve the
identification of P54 and P71?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in addition, you had the assistance of Dr. Emily Craig?
Frederick Jordan - Direct
A. Yes, Dr. Emily Craig from the University of Kentucky. Yes,
that's correct.
Q. And also associated with the Smithsonian Institute?
A. Dr. Craig, or Dr. Yukalar (phonetic).
Q. Well, I thought it was Dr. Craig.
A. She may be.
Q. Okay. And you had the assistance of Dr. Richard Jantz of
the University of Tennessee?
A. I think that Dr. Snow talked to him, but I don't have any
personal knowledge of that.
Q. And you had assistance in hair analysis from the FBI lab
and the Oklahoma City Police Department?
A. Yes.
Q. And blood work analysis?
A. Serology, DNA work.
Q. Yes.
A. Are we talking about Part 54 still?
Q. Yes.
A. Okay.
Q. And others who assisted you in an attempt to identify it.
A. Are you asking me?
Q. Yes -- no, I'm asking.
A. I would say the only other one I can think of at the moment
on P54 would have been the Oklahoma City police crime lab that
also looked at hair for us in an attempt to determine race.
Frederick Jordan - Direct
Q. Now, with respect to P71, was an examination of it made by
your office visually?
A. Yes.
Q. And by X ray?
A. Yes.
Q. And anthropology?
A. Yes.
Q. Hair?
A. Yes. Hair -- not by our office; but hair analysis was
done, yes.
Q. And the FBI did the DNA work?
A. On Part 71, they did DNA work, but it was not successful.
Q. And why is that?
A. They were unable to develop enough DNA to test.
Q. All right. So as it stands today, P71 is still in your
custody. Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And still unidentified?
A. That's correct.
Q. Dr. Jordan, in an attempt to identify first P74 -- I'm
sorry -- P54. Are you aware as a State Medical Examiner of
actions of the FBI and other agencies concerning canvass of
various facilities?
A. Did you say "canvass"?
Q. Canvass, yes.
Frederick Jordan - Direct
A. I think only in the most general terms. They kind of
worked by themselves.
Q. Well, do you know whether the homeless shelters were
canvassed?
A. I suspect they were. I've never seen any reports on that
in writing.
Q. Well, let me ask you rather than take unnecessary time:
Are you familiar with the work of FBI Special Agent Barry
Black?
A. I know Barry Black. I don't know that I could tell you
exactly what his work involves or what he's accomplished.
Q. Let me ask you if you are familiar with whether any of
these facilities were checked by the FBI in an attempt to
locate anyone not identified: Canvass of homeless shelters?
A. I assume they were, yes.
Q. Review of missing person records?
A. I believe that's true, too.
Q. Foot patrol officers canvassed neighborhoods?
A. Whether the FBI did that -- I suspect they did, but we had
asked the Oklahoma City police to do that, too.
Q. Church canvassing?
A. That, I don't know.
Q. Blood bank canvassing?
A. I don't know. I've not heard of that directly.
Q. Public assistance locations canvassed?
Frederick Jordan - Direct
A. That, I don't know.
Q. Military sources canvassed?
A. I believe that's correct, yes.
Q. AWOL?
A. I believe that's correct, also.
MR. JONES: Your Honor, may I have just one second?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. JONES: May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Dr. Jordan, I've handed you a document that has been marked
for identification, I believe, as Defense Exhibit K2. Is that
correct?
A. That's correct, uh-huh.
Q. Have you seen this document before? Do you recognize it?
A. Generally when I receive a document in the office, I put my
initials at the upper right-hand side to note that I have read
it. I don't see them on this copy, so . . .
Q. All right.
A. So I don't know that I have seen it. I may have, but
certainly -- I generally indicate that I have. There is some
writing on here besides the typing that's not my writing. So
if I did, I don't recall it.
MR. JONES: Is there an objection to this document?
MR. RYAN: Yes.
MR. JONES: I won't offer it.
I believe that's all the questions I have of
Dr. Jordan.
And may I retrieve my offered exhibit?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. JONES: Thank you, Dr. Jordan.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan, do you have questions?
MR. RYAN: Yes, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Good morning.
A. Good morning, Mr. Ryan.
Q. As with Mr. Jones, you and I have spent a lot of time
together in the last two years, haven't we?
A. In the last two years, we have.
Q. You have spent truly countless hours on this matter, have
you not?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Thousands?
A. I should imagine if we totaled it up it would get close to
that.
Q. You said that early on after the bombing that everything
was very confused and very chaotic, and you indicated that you
worked 12 hour shifts. Did you stick to that regimen,
Frederick Jordan - Cross
Dr. Jordan?
A. No.
Q. How many hours a day did you work?
A. I don't know. It's a blur. I slept. I'm not a martyr. I
slept and I showered and I definitely ate, but --
Q. How many hours --
A. As the Chief Medical Examiner, you know, you're always on
call. I was at the office daily for probably 14, 16 hours at
least.
Q. How many hours a night did you sleep between April 19 and
May 5?
A. I don't really know, Mr. Ryan. Enough so that I wasn't
dangerous. I could still drive my car and work. I didn't have
any accidents during that time period.
Q. This was a very emotionally upsetting time for your office
as well, wasn't it?
A. It was very difficult.
Q. You all debriefed one another at the end of a day?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. It must have been horrible, was it not, to deal with all of
these parts?
A. It became an emotional burden.
Q. One of the things that you were asked on your direct
examination was about the legs that came out of the building.
How many legs came out of the building?
Frederick Jordan - Cross
A. Are we talking about left legs?
Q. All legs.
A. Total? Oh, dear. We have left legs, we have a total of
nine. On right legs, I believe a total of five.
Q. So you had a total of 14 legs?
A. I believe that's correct, yes.
Q. From the day of April 19 until today, 14 legs have come out
of the building?
A. That's to the best of my recollection, that's correct.
Q. How many bodies have a socket, if you will, for lack of a
better word, a location that is missing a leg?
A. That came out of the building?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. One that we know of.
Q. I'm talking about all bodies now, all the bodies that came
out of the building.
A. Oh, you mean --
Q. How many of those bodies had a portion of the leg missing,
all or a portion of the leg missing?
A. We have the eight on the right and the five on the left.
I'm not sure I know exactly what you're asking me.
Q. Well, I'm not very artful about it. It's hard to talk
about this.
A. No, I suspect it's me.
Q. You had -- I'm talking about people who came out of the
Frederick Jordan - Cross
building who did not have a leg on their body. How many of
those people were there -- and what I'm really asking is not so
much the number of people as the number -- if one person had
two legs missing, then I want you to count that twice; in other
words, they'd have two spots where legs are missing. Are you
with me?
A. I think so.
Q. I'm trying to find out how many people had how many spots
where their legs should have been, missing.
A. If I'm understanding you correctly, we have eight -- oh, I
know what you're saying now. There is an overlap between the
eight and the five. I would have to look at some notes to
answer that question. I'm sorry.
Q. Is it not a fact that there are 14 places where legs should
go and 14 legs?
A. That, I am sure of; but as far as who lost both and who
lost one --
Q. I'm not asking you specific people.
A. Good. I appreciate that.
Q. Let me go back to my question now: There are -- The
medical examiner's office from April 19 to present has located
14 legs?
A. Yes.
Q. And there are 14 places on people where legs should go.
A. Right. And we have replaced 13 of those.
Frederick Jordan - Cross
Q. So you have an extra leg, but you also have a body buried
without a leg; correct?
A. That's right. Sorry.
Q. I'm sorry.
A. Obtuse, I guess.
Q. It was a very poorly worded question. It's a difficult
thing to ask about.
Now, these legs are not sharp, well defined legs like
each of us have in this room, are they?
A. Right.
Q. The legs you're looking at?
A. Right.
Q. They're legs that have been through a terrible bombing.
True?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. They are awful -- and mangled?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they are shredded?
A. To some extent, yes, sir, some of them.
Q. So that the jury does not misunderstand and the Court does
not misunderstand, we're not looking at a clean-cut leg.
A. Only in extrication amputation.
Q. With respect to all the others, these are difficult
sometimes to recognize exactly where the leg was cut, or at
times some of these body parts are even difficult to recognize
Frederick Jordan - Cross
what they are?
A. That's probably true, yes.
Q. Now, we've talked about No. 2404, and I think there may be
a little confusion about that. I think you might have
misspoken with respect to when that body came out of the
building. You said April 17. I know you didn't mean that,
because the bombing was on the 19th. Do you recall when 2404
came out of the building?
A. No. I'm blocking on it. I bet you can tell me.
Q. Well, I can tell you, or I can just show you a record, or
if you'll take my word for it --
A. 27th. I think the 27th.
Did I say 17th? I believe it's the 27th, early in the
afternoon.
Q. The document may not tell you exactly when it came out, but
it tells you when your office identified it?
A. It came out on the 27th. The document doesn't tell it.
This lady came out on the 27th somewhere between 1 and 3 in the
afternoon. I'm sorry. Poor computer people are also poor in
numbers.
Q. When you received this body bag with the body and legs
inside the bag, the medical examiner, Dr. Choi, believed that
those legs, the two legs in the body bag, belonged to that
person?
A. Yes, she did.
Frederick Jordan - Cross
Q. And as a result, the body was released to the family and
the funeral home and was buried?
A. That's correct.
Q. And what you're telling Mr. Jones is later after the
implosion, another leg was recovered?
A. That's correct.
Q. And that leg was found to belong to the lady that had been
earlier buried?
A. That's correct.
Q. And we substituted legs?
A. That's correct.
Q. And so that becomes now the P71, the extra leg?
A. That's correct.
Q. And Ms. -- and the -- I don't want to mention the person's
name, but the person who was buried without the leg -- that leg
has still not been recovered?
A. The person buried without the leg --
Q. Not talking about the person that we exchanged legs with,
but the other person -- you know who I'm talking about --
A. Oh, yes.
Q. -- that was buried without a leg? That leg has never been
recovered?
A. That's right. We have one buried without a leg that we
have never recovered a leg for. That's correct.
Q. Now, you have done some examination and testing and work on
Frederick Jordan - Cross
the leg that you have as P71?
A. That's correct.
Q. Based on the work that you've done, you believe that leg
belongs to a female?
A. We don't have any good scientific evidence to prove that at
this point yet, but that is the impression that Dr. Balding and
I have. But it's an impression; it's not a scientifically
quantifiable thing.
Q. I understand. And you've also measured the bones in the
leg, this P71?
A. That's correct.
Q. And based on the measurement of the bones, can a scientist
such as yourself estimate the height of the person that the leg
belongs to?
A. Yes.
Q. And have you done that?
A. We -- yes. We took the measurements of the bones done by
an anthropologist and looked at the tibia and put it into
standard formulas that you can look up, and it comes out to be
about 5' 4" to 5' 6" maximally. It depends on whether it turns
out to be male or female, black or white as to what
statistically one would expect the height to be, but it's
short.
Q. A relatively short person?
A. If it's a woman, it's not too short. If it's a man, it
Frederick Jordan - Cross
probably is.
Q. Now, you have not had the opportunity, of course, to go
back to all the other caskets and open them up and see exactly
what the situation is --
A. Thank God, no.
Q. -- regarding their legs. True?
A. That's true.
Q. And you're not, of course, going to do that.
A. I certainly hope not.
Q. So in terms of your ability to check P71 against the other
people removed from the building, that's just something you're
not capable of doing.
A. We can only do it through our files, our records, our
X rays, our photographs.
Q. Now, do you have some knowledge in connection with your
investigation of this case concerning a person or persons who
might have been sitting outside the building prior to the
explosion?
A. Yes.
MR. JONES: If the Court please, I'm going to object
to this, as I don't think Dr. Jordan can testify as to who was
sitting outside the building.
THE COURT: Well, he hasn't been asked yet.
You asked did he have some knowledge?
MR. RYAN: Yes, did he have some knowledge of that
Frederick Jordan - Cross
fact.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. There is some evidence, is there not, Dr. Jordan, that
there could have been people sitting out in front of the
building?
A. I believe there is, yes.
Q. Yes.
MR. RYAN: May I have just a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, P71 has been the leg that was removed from the casket
that you have now. It's in your office. It's available for
anyone to examine. Is that so?
A. Anyone authorized to examine it, yes.
Q. But if Mr. Jones had an expert that wanted to look at this
leg, you would make that available?
A. Certainly.
Q. And in fact, you've made your entire office and all of the
body parts available to any of the experts employed by the
defense.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, this leg that we're speaking of, P71: It was so
thoroughly embalmed that DNA is not capable of being extracted.
That's your understanding?
A. I've tried two different sources for DNA typing on that
Frederick Jordan - Cross
leg, and neither has been successful.
MR. RYAN: Excuse me just a moment, your Honor.
Just a moment longer, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Was there toenail polish on the toes of P71?
A. I don't think so. I don't remember.
Q. Excuse me?
A. I don't think so. I don't recall.
Q. All right.
A. I'm quite sure there wasn't, actually.
Q. Or at least there wasn't --
A. It wasn't available.
Q. -- by the time that it came to you some months later?
A. Yes.
MR. RYAN: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Jones, do you have some follow-up?
MR. JONES: Yes, sir.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Dr. Jordan, notwithstanding the confusion and the tragedy,
as I understand it, your office was able to identify all of the
bodies?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. And release them to the families?
Frederick Jordan - Redirect
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in addition to that, you were able to identify a number
of large body parts?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And place them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you had available to you, did you not, whatever
resources of the federal government and the academic community
you could draw on on the subject of identification of human
remains?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you drew on them.
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And notwithstanding all of that assistance that was
provided to you and available to you, you were not able to
identify P71 as belonging to any of the 168 bodies recovered.
Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. But you were able to identify P54.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Excuse me. In fact, you were able to identify it and to
acknowledge that a mistake had been made and retrieve P71 from
the casket it had been wrongfully placed into?
A. That's correct.
Q. That is -- would you say that's a dramatic demonstration of
Frederick Jordan - Redirect
the degree of science that was available to you?
A. That would be one way to look at it, yes.
Q. Now, with respect to -- I want to be sure I understand.
Your testimony is that there were eight individuals missing
left legs and you matched left legs to those eight.
A. That's correct.
Q. And there were five individuals missing a right leg.
A. Right.
Q. Are some of these individuals the same?
A. Yes.
Q. And were you able to match the right legs to all five?
A. No. Just to four.
Q. All right. And is the person that is buried the fifth one?
A. Yes.
Q. But that's a right leg that's missing?
A. That was a person buried without a right leg. We never
recovered that.
Q. And was the left leg intact on that person?
A. Damaged, but it was attached.
Q. There is no doubt that P71 is a left leg.
A. No, there is no doubt.
Q. And as a physician, you know that there is no human being
with two left feet except when dancing?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, you indicated that you took some measurements of P71.
Frederick Jordan - Redirect
Actually, as I understand, the anthropologist took the
measurements?
A. The anthropologist took them, yes. The measurement we took
was just the general overall length of the leg. That's all.
Q. There is a certain tool that anthropologists use that
measures portions of human bone and anatomy, is there not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then there is a chart; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. In which -- and that chart is based upon, in theory, the
height of men from the least to the most and then for women
from the least to the most?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But there is an area in between in which there is an
overlap, isn't there?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. And certainly, you know men that are 5' 4" or 5' 6"?
A. That's correct.
Q. And shorter?
A. Probably, yes.
Q. And you know women that are taller than 5' 4", 5' 6"?
A. Oh, definitely, yes.
Q. Now, as I understand, when you examined P71, there was no
Frederick Jordan - Redirect
toenail polish on it?
A. I don't recall that, Mr. Jones, no.
Q. Do you know whether it is possible that the funeral home
may have added toenail polish?
A. I do not know of my own knowledge.
Q. As far as you know, there is no toenail polish on it?
A. To the best of my recollection as I sit here, yes, without
looking back at files, which I don't have.
MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan?
MR. RYAN: A few more questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Dr. Jordan, Part 54, the one you weren't able to identify
to the lady that had been buried: There was DNA able to be
extracted from that leg. Is that so?
A. Yes. The FBI did extract DNA from Part 54.
Q. And that's what enabled you, or the FBI, or both of you to
place or identify that leg with that body?
A. Well, I think it honed into the point where we were able
to -- through their work, their extensive work -- were able to
identify who we felt it was; and then they were able to acquire
the footprints and identify the body absolutely through the
footprints.
Frederick Jordan - Recross
Q. And that's --
A. Of the leg -- excuse me -- absolutely through the
footprints.
Q. Excuse me. And that's the problem we have with P71: No
one has been able to do what they had done with P54?
A. Right. We have not been able to develop enough DNA to work
with.
Q. So that's why you're not able to make any kind of
identification or even get a run at identification?
A. That would give us some progress. At least it would give
us something to compare to other things, and we don't have that
capability. I'm sure that we can't because we've done it in
two good laboratories and neither one can develop it.
Q. Now, this leg that we're talking about, the one you believe
belongs to a female around 5'4" to 5'6": This is a leg that is
relatively intact, is it not?
A. It has a fracture through the femur. It has a fracture
through the fibula, which is the smaller of the two leg bones,
and it has above the knee and, to some extent, below the knee a
great deal of soft tissue damage, laceration and blunt force --
what looks to be blunt force damage.
Q. But the foot is not in any way disintegrated. The bones
have not shredded apart?
A. No.
Q. If you had the leg here, you would recognize it as a leg.
Frederick Jordan - Recross
It's got a foot that's very distinct. It's got a form that is
easily recognizable?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you found no additional heads?
A. No additional what?
Q. Heads that you couldn't match?
A. That we couldn't match? No, we found no heads we could not
match.
Q. You found no arms you could not match?
A. That's correct.
Q. You found no torsos you could not match?
A. That's correct.
Q. You found no large bones that you could not match?
A. That's correct.
Q. In fact, the total amount of these parts that you have been
speaking of from all of these victims that was recovered is
about 14 pounds.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I'm not talking about the leg but in addition to the leg.
A. We're not talking about the leg. You're talking about the
small parts.
Q. The small parts that you talked about.
A. The small parts that we recovered -- it's about 18.
Q. 18 pounds?
A. Yes.
Frederick Jordan - Recross
Q. And the parts that are missing from the 168 people that
they were not buried with are a great deal more than 18 pounds?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Correct?
Now, the -- you've told us the leg -- not scientific,
but your impression is it belongs to a woman. Is the body that
was buried without the leg: Is that also a woman?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. RYAN: That's all I have, your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Dr. Jordan, is your opinion, if it is that, that this leg
belongs to a woman based upon the bone structure and the weight
or the measurement, rather, by the anthropologist?
A. No.
Q. What else is it based on?
A. It's based basically simply on the fact that when we looked
at it under a dissecting microscope, it looked as if the hair
had been shaven. And simply based on that, we think that is
one factor in favor of the leg being female. Obviously, it's
not very definitive because some athletes shave their legs, any
number of things.
Q. And some women do not?
A. That's correct. That is just our opinion. It is not very
scientific. It's just -- we're trying -- we're going to
Frederick Jordan - Redirect
continue to try to identify this.
Q. Sure.
A. And we're just trying to develop any indication, any clue
that we have that might lead us somewhere.
Q. Dr. Jordan, are you familiar with the literature involving
explosions where an entire body can be disintegrated except
just one piece of the anatomy?
A. Yes.
Q. And in fact, that's widely reported in the literature,
isn't it?
A. Yeah. Dr. T.K. Marshall has written about that and
reported it.
Q. And Dr. T.K. Marshall is retired Chief State Pathologist
for Northern Ireland, isn't he?
A. Yes, he is.
Q. Where, unfortunately, they have a lot of bombings?
A. That's correct.
Q. A lot of ammonium nitrate bombings, don't they?
A. My understanding from reading Dr. Marshall's articles.
Q. Is he a recognized authority in the area of forensic
pathology?
A. He certainly is by me. I think he is by everyone. I think
we all admire him for what he's gone through and what he's been
able to do. I personally admire him greatly.
I had breakfast with him, as a matter of fact.
Frederick Jordan - Redirect
Q. Who paid?
A. He did -- No, actually, he didn't. I don't know who paid,
because it was one of those freebie breakfasts.
Q. Well, certainly, you recognize him and regard him as an
expert in forensic pathology and the recovery of remains from
bombs, do you not?
A. Certainly.
MR. JONES: Nothing further.
MR. RYAN: One more question, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Do you know of any instance in your experience or -- where
a person has disintegrated but a leg has been intact?
A. No. I've never seen anything like that, nor have I read
anything like that.
Q. Even by Dr. Marshall?
A. Except that one case that Dr. Marshall reports.
Q. What was the body part in that case?
A. The body part in that case was a penis.
Q. It was hardly a leg, a large leg like you've described for
us?
A. That's correct.
MR. RYAN: No further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Frederick Jordan - Redirect
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Excuse me. I thought you described a small leg, Dr.
Marshall. Which is it? I'm sorry, Doctor. I haven't promoted
you yet. Dr. Jordan. I thought you described a small leg.
A. A small leg?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't know where you're going, Mr. Jones. You've lost
me.
Q. Well, how long is the leg?
A. How long is this leg?
Q. Yes.
A. Oh, 16, 18 inches.
Q. And you thought it belonged to a person that weighed -- or
stood between 5' 4" and 5' 6"?
A. That's right.
MR. JONES: Okay. Thank you.
THE COURT: I think you're going to be excused now.
Is that right? We're excusing Dr. Jordan?
Okay.
MR. RYAN: Yes, your Honor. He may be recalled,
however.
THE COURT: Well, he can go back, however, and --
MR. JONES: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: -- be notified in advance?
MR. RYAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. You may return.
THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
THE COURT: Members of the jury, we'll take the noon
recess at this time, as usual, till a little after 1:30. And
we again, of course, caution you -- I doubt that you would want
to discuss this testimony over lunch; but, of course, you have
to avoid discussion of anything that you've been seeing and
hearing as the testimony and evidence in this case, continue to
be careful, keep open minds, and avoid anything outside the
evidence.
You're excused till about 1:32.
(Jury out at 12:01 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be in recess.
(Recess at 12:02 p.m.)
* * * * *
INDEX
Item Page
WITNESSES
Dan Harris
Direct Examination by Mr. Jones
Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Mackey
Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Jones 10154
Herta King
Direct Examination by Mr. Nigh
Cross-examination by Mr. Orenstein
WITNESSES (continued)
(Herta King)
Redirect Examination by Mr. Nigh
Renda Truong
Direct Examination by Mr. Nigh
Cross-examination by Mr. Mackey
Redirect Examination by Mr. Nigh
Recross-examination by Mr. Mackey
Lenard White
Direct Examination by Mr. Nigh
Cross-examination by Mr. Orenstein
Redirect Examination by Mr. Nigh
Diana White
Direct Examination by Mr. Nigh
Cross-examination by Mr. Orenstein
Frederick Jordan
Direct Examination by Mr. Jones
Cross-examination by Mr. Ryan
Redirect Examination by Mr. Jones
Recross-examination by Mr. Ryan
Redirect Examination by Mr. Jones
Recross-examination by Mr. Ryan
Redirect Examination by Mr. Jones
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS
Exhibit Offered Received Refused Reserved Withdrawn
290 10175 10175
1248 10240 10240
1253 10236 10237
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBITS
Exhibit Offered Received Refused Reserved Withdrawn
D13 10151 10154
F15 10201 10201
* * * * *
REPORTERS' CERTIFICATE
We certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from
the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. Dated
at Denver, Colorado, this 22d day of May, 1997.
_______________________________
Paul Zuckerman
_______________________________
Bonnie Carpenter