OKC Bombing Trial Transcript - 05/14/1997 14:38 CDT/CST
05/14/1997
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH,
Defendant.
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REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury - Volume 95)
컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴�
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 9:00 a.m., on the 14th day of May,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK M. RYAN, United States Attorney for the
Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400,
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
JOSEPH H. HARTZLER, SEAN CONNELLY, LARRY A. MACKEY,
BETH WILKINSON, SCOTT MENDELOFF, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, AITAN
GOELMAN, and VICKI BEHENNA, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
STEPHEN JONES and ROBERT NIGH, JR., Attorneys at Law,
Jones, Wyatt & Roberts, 999 18th Street, Suite 2460, Denver,
Colorado, 80202; and CHERYL A. RAMSEY, Attorney at Law,
Szlichta and Ramsey, 8 Main Place, Post Office Box 1206,
Stillwater, Oklahoma, 74076, appearing for Defendant McVeigh.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 9:00 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
Are we ready for the jury?
MR. HARTZLER: We are, thank you.
THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Nigh, are you ready?
MR. NIGH: Yes.
(Jury in at 9:01 a.m.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, good morning.
You will recall when we recessed yesterday afternoon,
we were hearing testimony from Mr. Charles Edwards.
Mr. Edwards, if you'll come in and resume the witness
stand under the oath you have taken.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
(Charles Edwards was recalled to the stand.)
THE COURT: Questioning by Mr. Nigh on
cross-examination. Mr. Nigh, you may resume.
MR. NIGH: Thank you, your Honor.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Edwards.
A. Good morning, sir.
Q. You will recall that yesterday we were talking about the
number of keys in a box of keys and lock sets which might have
the same key code.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I believe that we determined, if my math was correct,
that out of an order of 400, as many as 120 locks and keys
might be coded the same.
A. I'm glad you asked me that. I thought about that
overnight.
Q. Oh, you did?
A. I did. That wouldn't happen because of the way we build
the locks. And let me explain how we do that. We cut -- our
key building equipment is set to cut 50 keys per code. Two of
Charles Edwards - Recross
each of those keys are rung together in tags, so you have 25
sets of keys. We then begin to build the locks. Our locks are
built in batches of 25 per code, so you have 25 bins of locks
coded alike. That's how we process the locks through the
building. So if you had an order for 400 pieces, you would
have 16 batches of locks comprising that order; so you would
have 16 different codes in that 400-piece order.
Q. Okay. So as many as 25 --
A. 25. That's correct.
Q. All right. Do you know how many lock sets Hurd Corporation
provided to Ford in 1993?
A. Millions.
Q. Would it be more than 25 of those locks that had the same
key code?
A. I really don't know. We -- the way we processed the codes,
we had to cycle through all of the ignition codes, and there's
1,051 ignition codes. We had to cycle through all 1,051 I
guess initial codes before -- per part number we sold Ford.
Some car lines have up to three or four different lock
sets associated with them. So for each one of those lock sets,
we had to go through all 1,051 codes before we could repeat.
Each time we changed codes -- and like I said, we cut 50 keys
to the same code, then indexed down to the next code in series.
Each time we indexed down on the ignition code, we indexed down
to the next door code.
Charles Edwards - Recross
Q. All right. I'm not sure I understand you. You think that
there were 50 keys that were the same for each code?
A. There were 50 keys, two keys per set.
Q. Okay. But 25 lock sets for the same code?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And you don't know how often that process would
be repeated in an order for Ford during the year 1994 -- or
1993, rather?
A. No, sir. There were 253,000 possible combinations.
Q. All right. Do cars and trucks use the same key codes
sometimes?
A. Yes, sir, they do.
Q. So there might be Ford cars that have precisely the same
key code as a Ford truck might have?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is Hurd Corporation the only supplier to Ford for keys and
lock sets?
A. We supplied all of the North American operations between
1985 and all of 1995. During that period there were some car
lines -- for example, the Probe and the Capri -- that had locks
supplied from another supplier.
Q. All right. Can you tell by looking at a key, just by
looking at it, yourself, and visually inspecting it, whether or
not it's a key to a car or a truck?
A. The design of the head of the key on some models I can
Charles Edwards - Recross
tell. For example, the Escorts had a particular shape on --
the head of the key was molded in plastic. And it had a very
distinctive shape. The Ford and Mercury keys have unique logos
on them, as does the Lincoln; so there's -- to a degree, I can
differentiate between the different keys.
Q. Leaving those few examples aside, can you tell just by
looking at a key, generally, whether or not it's a key to a car
or a truck, a Ford key?
A. No. I'd say no.
Q. If I understood your testimony correctly, you didn't do any
work in this case in reference to creating key and lock sets
until the summer of 1996; is that right?
A. Yes, sir, that's right.
Q. And then eventually you were asked to take Government's
Exhibit 699, the key, and see if it would fit in and function
the lock sets that you had made?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know where -- were you told where Government 699
came from?
A. No, sir.
Q. You don't know how it came into the possession of the FBI
at all?
A. No, sir, I don't.
Q. Do you know why it took until 1996 for them to ask you to
do this?
Charles Edwards - Recross
A. No, sir, I don't.
Q. Do you know if the key was tested for fingerprints before
you were asked to perform your work?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or explosives residue, whether those kinds of tests were
performed on it?
A. No, sir, I don't.
Q. Did the key that was provided to you appear to have any
damage to it, either from abrasives or --
A. None that I could see.
Q. Were you provided with anything associated with the key,
such as a Ryder tag or a key chain or anything of that nature?
A. No, sir.
Q. In connection with the work that you did with the FBI, you
noticed I suppose yesterday that the key that was marked as
Government's Exhibit 699 had a Q number on it, Q2323, I
believe?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In connection with your work with the FBI, did you conduct
an examination of an automobile-style lock assembly which would
be consistent with the ones made by Hurd Corporation for Ford
which the FBI identified as Q118?
A. No, sir, I don't believe I ever saw that.
Q. To see if the key would fit that lock?
A. No, sir.
Charles Edwards - Recross
Q. Did you ever examine a door-lock assembly identified by the
FBI as Q1183 which appeared to be a Ford-style double-sided
lock set to see if the key would fit that set?
A. No, sir, I don't recall doing that, either.
Q. Did you examine a lock assembly identified by the FBI as
Q2134, a damaged lock set, to determine whether the key would
fit that lock?
A. I don't recall that, sir. Let me say one thing. It seems
during my first visit to Denver, they showed me pieces of
another lock set, but it wasn't a Ford lock set.
Q. All right.
A. I didn't try any keys in it or anything.
Q. Well, let me ask you this, if I may, Mr. Edwards. Did you
ever examine a lock set taken from the scene of the Murrah
Building to determine if that key would fit the lock set?
A. No, sir, I didn't.
Q. The work that you performed began in 1996, the summer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is all that's necessary to build a lock set and a key --
for somebody who's familiar with that kind of process, is all
that's necessary a VIN number so that you can find the key
code?
A. I just need the key code and the model of the car line or
truck.
Q. Do you know whether if you have the VIN number from the
Charles Edwards - Recross
vehicle, you can determine what the key code is by contacting
the manufacturer?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Do you know when it was that the FBI discovered what the
VIN number was?
A. No, sir, I don't.
Q. Now, I'm assuming -- you've done a little thought since we
were here yesterday; right?
A. Didn't sleep a lot last night, yes, sir.
Q. Well, I'm sorry about that.
A. That's okay.
Q. One of the things that you did, I'm sure -- you tell me if
I'm wrong -- is to take what I marked as Defendant's Exhibit
U1A, the duplicate key --
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- and see if it would fit in and function the lock set
that you made. Did you do that?
A. Did I try it or did I think about it?
Q. Either one.
A. I thought about it.
Q. But you didn't do it?
A. No, sir, I didn't do it.
Q. Did you observe anybody else do it?
A. I think I saw one of the . . . I think I saw somebody do it
yesterday afternoon.
Charles Edwards - Recross
Q. And what happened was the key would fit in all the way --
isn't that right?
A. Right.
Q. But it wouldn't turn the lock?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. Went all the way in, but just simply wouldn't turn
the tumbler?
A. That's right.
MR. NIGH: I think that that's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
MR. GOELMAN: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Are you excusing this witness?
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: You're excused to go get some sleep.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. HARTZLER: Government calls Gary Witt.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Gary Witt affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Gary C. Witt, W-I-T-T.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Hartzler.
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Witt. Can you tell us where you're
employed?
A. With the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Q. How long have you worked as an FBI agent?
A. Just over 26 1/2 years.
Q. Where are you currently assigned?
A. Kansas City division at Kansas City, Missouri.
Q. And as part of this case, were you asked to take a walk?
A. I was.
Q. Explain to the jurors and the Court what you did.
A. I was asked to take a walk from the McDonald's restaurant
in Junction City to Elliott's Body Shop in Junction City.
Q. And tell us when you did that, when you left the
restaurant, how long it took you to get to Elliott's Body Shop.
A. I took that walk on February 19 of this year. And let's
see. The walk, total time elapsed, was like 18 1/2 minutes.
Q. Did you try to arrange this so that you left the McDonald's
at the same time that Mr. McVeigh left as disclosed by the
video, the McDonald's video?
Gary Witt - Direct
A. I did.
Q. That was 3:57 in the afternoon?
A. Correct.
Q. And there are two exit -- two public exit doors to that
McDonald's; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. One that exits to the north side and one to the south side?
A. Yes.
Q. So how did you --
A. I departed through the north doorway, and the other agent,
Agent Schaefer, departed through the south doorway.
Q. So there were two of you that completed this assignment?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.
A. Yes.
Q. And both of you left at the same time?
A. Correct.
Q. 3:57?
A. Correct.
Q. In the afternoon.
And what time, approximately -- approximately what
time did Agent Schaefer arrive at the front door of Elliott's?
A. He arrived one minute before me. It was -- exact time was
4 p.m. and 14 minutes, 4:14 p.m.
Q. And you arrived at what time?
Gary Witt - Direct
A. I arrived at about 4:16, just like 4:15 and 50 seconds, or
18 1/2 minutes elapsed time.
Q. He walked faster or has a longer stride?
A. He's slightly, he's younger by 20-some years and taller.
Had a greater stride.
Q. What pace did you keep? Did you work up a sweat and huff
and puff on your way there?
A. No, I was not winded when I got there. It was a brisk
pace, but I was not winded. I could carry on a conversation at
the end.
Q. In your 26 years, have you ever had an easier assignment?
A. Let's say I've had more challenging assignments.
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you very much. Nothing further.
THE COURT: Any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Mr. Witt, when you measured the time, did it take you
18 1/2 minutes? Is that correct?
A. I think it was -- exact time was 18 minutes and 38 seconds.
Q. All right. And you timed your departure at 3:57 and what?
A. And 12 seconds.
Q. All right. But in any event, it took you 18 minutes and 38
seconds?
A. Correct.
Q. So if you had left at 3:59 plus a few seconds -- in other
Gary Witt - Cross
words, if the clock had been slow by 2 minutes -- then you
would have arrived 18 minutes and 38 seconds later; is that
correct?
A. Right.
Q. And if the clock had been 2 minutes slower -- in other
words, if your time had been 3:57 and some odd seconds -- then
you would arrive shortly before the time that you did when you
left at 3:57?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, was there any moisture on your fingers when you
arrived?
MR. HARTZLER: Pardon me.
THE COURT: This is a little confusing. You said
arrive at 3:57. He talked about leaving at 3:57.
MR. JONES: All right. Let me back up. Thank you,
your Honor.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. You left based upon the time shown on the videotape?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Were you aware that the owner of McDonald's
testified that it could be fast or slow by 2 minutes?
A. I was not aware of that.
Q. All I want to establish is is there any reason for you to
believe that if you had left at the earlier time, that it would
have taken you the same amount of time to walk there?
Gary Witt - Cross
A. It would have taken me the same amount of time.
Q. In which case you would have arrived there slightly earlier
than the time you've given us?
A. Yes.
Q. But if the clock was 2 minutes slow, then you would have
arrived 2 minutes later than the time you gave us when you left
at 3:57 plus some seconds --
A. Yes.
Q. -- is that correct?
Now, did you have any moisture on your fingers when
you arrived?
A. No.
Q. I noticed that you took this trip in February.
A. Yes.
Q. And what was the temperature like that day?
A. It was very comfortable. Had light jacket on. I removed
it. I recall it was around probably 60's. It was partly
sunny.
Q. All right.
A. Dry.
MR. JONES: Thank you very much, sir.
THE COURT: Anything else of this witness?
MR. HARTZLER: No. May he be excused?
THE COURT: Agreed?
MR. JONES: Yes.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, the Government calls Floyd
Zimms. Mr. Mackey will question him.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Floyd Zimms affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Floyd M. Zimms, Z-I-M-M-S.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Zimms, where do you work?
A. Work with the FBI.
Q. And how long have you been an FBI agent?
A. 27 years.
Q. Where are you currently assigned?
A. Oklahoma City.
Q. How long have you been in Oklahoma City?
A. 18 years.
Q. Have you participated in the investigation concerning the
Floyd Zimms - Direct
case now before the Court?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Carried on a number of different tasks?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Let me ask you about one of those only, this morning. In
March of this year, did you undertake to measure the time and
travel -- excuse me, the distance and travel time between the
Regency Towers Apartments in downtown Oklahoma City and 109
South 2d Street in Herington, Kansas?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Tell us what you did.
A. On March the 6th, I drove from in front of the Regency
Towers in Oklahoma City along a route taking Interstate 35 into
Kansas and then U.S. 77 in Kansas up to Herington, Kansas, to
the front of 109 South 2d, drove a speed staying as best as I
could 5 miles an hour under the posted speed limits, measured
the time and distance it took me to get there.
Q. What was the distance between those two sites?
A. It was approximately 244 miles.
Q. And what was the travel time between those two sites?
A. It was approximately 4 hours and 18 to 20 minutes.
Q. And did you clock yourself in a return fashion with a
different route?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Tell us about that.
Floyd Zimms - Direct
A. Driving from 109 South 2d down U.S. 77 in Kansas to
Interstate 35 in Kansas and Interstate 35 back down to Oklahoma
City in front of the Regency Towers, at the same rate of speed,
nonstop, it was approximately 255 miles, took approximately 4
hours and 30 minutes.
Q. Based on this travel trip, if a person left 109 South 2d
Street in Herington, Kansas at approximately 3:30 p.m., what
time would that person arrive at the Regency Towers in downtown
Oklahoma City?
A. Approximately 8 p.m. or shortly thereafter.
Q. And if a person left from downtown Oklahoma City in front
of the Regency Towers at approximately 8:24 p.m., approximately
what time would they arrive at 109 South 2d Street in
Herington, Kansas?
A. Approximately 1:00 in the morning the next day.
MR. MACKEY: I have nothing else, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Mr. Zimms, for your estimate of arriving in Oklahoma City
at approximately 8 p.m. or a few minutes thereafter, you
assumed that the car left Herington at 3:30 in the afternoon?
A. Correct.
Q. Did your assumption also include that it did not stop
en route?
Floyd Zimms - Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So in other words, it drove straight through?
A. I drove straight through to get those calculations, yes.
Q. Yes. Now, of course you've lived in Oklahoma City for 18
years, have you not?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. So you're very familiar with how to get to the downtown
Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, if this automobile that you're referencing had not
left Herington -- or to put it another way, let us suppose it
had left Herington at 3:30, but it had in fact -- instead of
going south, had gone north to Junction City and then had
gotten back on the highway and come down to Oklahoma City, that
would have added at least another hour to your time, wouldn't
it?
A. It would have added time. I have no idea of the amount of
time.
Q. Well, you know that Herington is approximately 30 minutes
from Junction City on the highway, don't you?
A. I don't know the exact distance or time. I haven't driven
that.
Q. Well, it's in the next county, isn't it?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And would you be comfortable in saying that it's at least a
Floyd Zimms - Cross
20-minute drive from Herington to Junction City?
A. I haven't driven it, so I really can't say, sir.
Q. Now, did you measure or do you know what the distance is
between the McDonald's and Elliott's?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. You haven't measured that?
A. No, sir.
MR. JONES: Thank you, sir.
MR. MACKEY: Nothing further.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. MACKEY: May be excused.
THE COURT: You're excusing?
MR. MACKEY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Is that agreed, Mr. Jones?
MR. JONES: No, sir. I would like Mr. Zimms to be
available, but he certainly doesn't have to stay here.
THE COURT: Yes. Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Government calls Mary Jasnowski.
Mr. Ryan will question her.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Mary Jasnowski affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Have a seat, please.
State your full name for the record and spell your
last name, please.
THE WITNESS: My name is Mary, middle initial Y.,
Jasnowski, J-A-S-N-O-W-S-K-I.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: All right.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Good morning.
A. Good morning.
Q. Mrs. Jasnowski, you testified before this Court and jury
last week, did you not?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And at that time you informed us that you were a special
agent with the FBI --
A. Yes.
Q. And that one of the duties that you undertook in connection
with this case was acting as the supervisory agent of the
search of Terry Nichols' home?
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. There was one item of evidence that was not discussed with
your testimony last week, and I'd like to bring it up with you
at this time. Before you, you should have an exhibit that is
marked Government Exhibit No. 250. Do you have that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Can you identify that for us, please.
Mary Jasnowski - Direct
A. Yes. It's a book that was discovered and placed in Item
A19 from our evidence lock, which means the living room of Mr.
Nichols' residence.
Q. And when did you acquire that?
A. On the night of April 23.
Q. And from whom did you acquire it?
A. I -- the seizing person was Joanne Thomas of our evidence
team.
Q. Now, as you sit here today and look at Government's Exhibit
250, do you recall that exhibit?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What did you do with the exhibit after you obtained it?
A. After I obtained it, I -- it was placed with the other
evidence, and it was photocopied by myself and another agent.
Q. And then ultimately what became of this exhibit?
A. We sealed it up and turned it over to the lab personnel.
Q. Now, when you obtained the Exhibit No. 250 from Miss Thomas
in the Nichols home, was it in the exact condition that it's in
today?
A. No. These tabs were missing, and it looks like it's been
discolored from some sort of testing, and there are numbers
written at the bottom that were not there. But generally it is
in the same situation -- or condition as it was.
Q. All of the handwriting, except for the Q numbers at the
bottom of the page, was handwriting that existed at the time
Mary Jasnowski - Direct
that the document was provided to you by Miss Thomas?
A. Yes, that's correct.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer into evidence
Government's Exhibit 250.
MR. JONES: May I see it, your Honor?
THE COURT: Certainly, you may approach and look at
it.
MR. JONES: I'll look at it in greater detail later,
your Honor, but I don't have any objection now.
THE COURT: Thank you. 250 is received.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, may I be permitted to publish
one page of the exhibit?
THE COURT: Well, if it has particular importance.
MR. RYAN: Well, we believe it does, your Honor. I
made a Xerox copy of this exhibit that's a little more legible,
your Honor, and I would offer this copy into evidence as
Exhibit 250A.
THE COURT: What page is it?
MR. RYAN: There are not numbered pages, your Honor.
I'd be happy to hand the Court the --
THE COURT: Well, I'd just like for the record to have
some idea --
MR. RYAN: Yes. If I'd be permitted to count the
pages, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sure.
Mary Jasnowski - Direct
MR. RYAN: Be the 27th page.
THE COURT: Thank you. You may use 250A. You may
publish it.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, Ms. Jasnowski, could you read into the record the
contents of the page there on the right-hand side?
A. Yes.
Q. Beginning with the word "Joe."
A. Yes. It says, "Joe Kyle," K-Y-L-E, the number sign, "40.
Coun," C-O-U-N slash "Gro," G-R-O, slash "Kan." Then there's a
number 10-17 over 94, plus sign, 12-17 over 94. And then on
the next line is "37 Ted Parker," P-A-R-K-E-R. 11 dot 17 9 dot
4 plus 01 dot 31 dot 95. And then "ditto" on the next line.
Q. Thank you.
MR. RYAN: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Jones.
MR. JONES: Mr. Ryan took his bookmark out of it, your
Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Do you have it in front of you now?
A. I can look at the actual exhibit.
Q. All right. Doesn't that stand for Joe Kyle, No. 40,
Council Grove, Kansas, and then give some dates?
Mary Jasnowski - Cross
A. It appears to stand for that.
Q. And do you recognize the No. 40 as a number of a storage
unit?
A. I don't know that, no.
Q. And do you know what these dates correspond with some
rental agreement dates?
A. I don't know that, no.
Q. And the second one, Ted Parker, ditto, would mean Council
Grove, Kansas?
A. I wouldn't know. I would be guessing.
Q. What does "ditto" usually stand for?
A. The same.
Q. Right. Now, from your -- incidentally, where did you find
this in his house?
A. It was in the living room in a closet on a shelf.
Q. And what day did you find it?
A. I believe it was -- well, the night of the 23d or the 24th.
Q. And was it just sitting up on the shelf, or was it in a box
or what?
A. It was in the bottom -- it was in a clothes closet there
were shelves in, and I believe it was on the bottom shelf. I
didn't actually seize it. Miss Thomas did, but I saw where she
seized it from.
Q. You've been an agent that's worked in various aspects of
this case, particularly as it relates to Mr. Nichols and his
Mary Jasnowski - Cross
belongings?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you familiar with a judgment, money judgment, issued
against him for a rather substantial amount of money out of a
state court out of Michigan?
A. No, I'm not familiar.
Q. And a garnishment and an attachment proceeding?
A. No, I'm not familiar.
MR. JONES: Thank you.
THE COURT: Anything else of this witness?
MR. RYAN: No, your Honor. She may be excused.
THE COURT: Agreed, Mr. Jones?
MR. JONES: Yes.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Government calls Jerry Tucker.
Mr. Mackey will question him.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, may I put something there?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Jerry Tucker affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Jerry A. Tucker, T-U-C-K-E-R.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Tucker. Where do you work, please.
A. I work for the FBI.
Q. What is your position?
A. Special agent.
Q. And where are you assigned?
A. Omaha division.
Q. How long have you worked for the FBI?
A. 29 years.
Q. And how many years in Omaha?
A. About 10.
Q. Was that your station of duty in April of 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. And were you and others from that same office responsible
for organizing and executing a federal search warrant at 109
South 2d Street in Herington, Kansas, on April 22, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Describe to the jury and his Honor in an overview your
role.
A. I was assigned as a team member to execute the search
warrant. Mary Jasnowski was the team leader. She assigned us
various areas to search, and I searched it with other
Jerry Tucker - Direct
individuals from the Omaha division and Kansas City division.
Q. In the course of that evening, did you assist in searching
the basement areas of that residence?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And in the course of that search of that area, did you
locate a cardboard box containing plastic bottles with white
substances inside?
A. Yes.
Q. And was a photograph taken of those items?
A. Yes.
Q. Before they were moved?
A. Yes.
Q. Take a look, please, at Exhibit 148A. Do you see that on
the witness stand there?
A. Yes.
Q. And what does that exhibit show?
A. It shows the box containing bottles with the white
substance.
Q. And thereafter did you seize the contents of the items
depicted in that photograph?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Does the photograph accurately depict the contents of the
box at the time of the seizure?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit Government
Jerry Tucker - Direct
Exhibit 148A.
MR. JONES: No objection.
THE COURT: Received, 148A.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Agent Tucker, as part of your duties, then, did you
inventory the contents of that box?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you find inside?
A. There were six bottles containing the white substance, and
there was a plastic bottle on top, a green one. We took the
six bottles containing the white substance.
Q. Did each of the bottles have a label on it?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. And what was on the label?
A. Best of my recollection, it said, "Ammonium Nitrate.
Explosive."
Q. Agent Tucker, I've placed before you an accordion folder.
And reach in, please, carefully, and see if you can find
Government Exhibit 148. 148.
Do you find it?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you recognize it?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And how so?
A. It has my initials on it and the date of 4-22-95.
Jerry Tucker - Direct
Q. And in the course of taking into custody that particular
exhibit, did you take a sample from that same exhibit?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Take a look, please, in the accordion folder for the next
exhibit.
Do you see 148B, as in boy?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that, please.
A. It is a sample that I took at the direction of Mr. Steven
Burmeister from this bottle.
Q. In the course of seizing Exhibit 148?
A. Yes.
Q. And are your date -- is your initials and date on that same
exhibit, 148B?
A. Yes.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move into evidence
Government Exhibits 148 and 148B.
MR. JONES: No objection.
THE COURT: Received. They're both received.
MR. MACKEY: I have no further questions.
Thank you, Agent Tucker.
THE COURT: Mr. Jones.
MR. JONES: May I approach the witness to look at the
bottles, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yeah, sure.
Jerry Tucker - Cross
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Mr. Tucker, do you have in front of you Government Exhibit
148A, sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And that plastic bottle that you're talking about there,
that looks like some kind of plastic canteen, doesn't it?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. In fact, it says "canteen" on it?
A. Yes.
Q. And these bottles -- pardon me -- of the ammonium nitrate,
you said that contained the word "explosive."
A. Yes.
Q. And of course it does. But it also says "fertilizer,"
doesn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And then it says "prills"?
A. Yes.
Q. And off to the side, it says "explosives"?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you were in Mr. Nichols' house, did you see any
small bags containing ammonium nitrate, ground up?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Did you find a mixer in the kitchen? Kitchen mixer?
A. I don't recall.
Jerry Tucker - Cross
Q. All right. Do you know if one of the other agents did?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you remember any discussion about -- from Ms. Nichols if
this mixer was used to ground up these prills for gun shows?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Now, you also recovered Exhibit 264, Armed and Dangerous,
didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have that with you today?
A. No.
Q. Why didn't you bring it?
A. I don't know why it's not here.
Q. You weren't going to bring Exhibit No. 264, Armed and
Dangerous, the Rise of the Survivalist; right?
A. No.
Q. Were you going to bring it before cross-examination of
Mr. Fortier?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Have you read or looked at Armed and Dangerous?
A. Yes.
Q. And it's published by Hill & Wang out of New York, isn't
it?
A. I don't recall.
Jerry Tucker - Cross
Q. Do you remember Chapter 2 is about The Order?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Do you remember if the book is critical of the survivalist
right?
A. I don't know.
Q. Where is the copy of Mr. Nichols' book Armed and Dangerous
that you found in his house?
A. I assume it's in the evidence maintained by the office.
Q. And you are the one that recovered it?
A. Yes.
Q. At his house.
Okay. So you would have access to it?
A. Yes, I would.
MR. JONES: No further questions, your Honor.
MR. MACKEY: Just one question.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Agent Tucker, the cardboard box you described contained a
total of six bottles much like the one before you as Exhibit
148?
A. Yes.
Q. To your knowledge, was those six bottles the total quantity
of ammonium nitrate found in the Nichols residence?
A. Yes.
MR. MACKEY: Nothing else.
MR. JONES: I don't have anything further. But I'd
like to leave Mr. Tucker on call, please.
THE COURT: Yes. I understand.
All right, you may step down, and you'll be notified
when to appear again.
Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Government calls Richard Nichols.
Mr. Mackey will question.
THE COURT: All right.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Richard Nichols affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Richard Logan Nichols, N-I-C-H-O-L-S.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Nichols.
A. Good morning.
Q. Would you tell the jury where you live.
A. I live in Oklahoma City.
Q. And how long have you lived in Oklahoma City?
Richard Nichols - Direct
A. I've lived in Oklahoma City all my life.
Q. And how old are you?
A. But once -- 40 years.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And to whom?
A. Bertha Nichols.
Q. Do you have children?
A. Yes, sir, I have two boys.
Q. How old are they?
A. I have one boy 13 and one boy 10.
Q. How far did you go in school?
A. I went to the tenth grade, and then I got a high school
equivalence.
Q. And in the course of your life, have you served in the U.S.
military?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When was that?
A. I served from 19, 1974 to 1983.
Q. In what branch?
A. Army.
Q. Are you currently employed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And for whom?
A. I'm employed from Atlantic Projects.
Richard Nichols - Direct
Q. What do you do for them?
A. It's a -- I'm an apprentice millwright. I do metal work.
Q. Have you worked in mechanical fields for most of your life?
A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever work for the Regency Towers Apartments in
downtown Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time period?
A. I worked for them for 10 years. It was 10 years, just
prior to the bombing. I can't think of the dates.
I'm a little nervous.
Q. All right. Did you leave in 1996?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you started there in about 1986?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what did you do for them for 10 years?
A. I was the maintenance -- building maintenance for the
apartments there.
Q. And tell the jury what that entailed. What did you do as
a --
A. I did everything from repairs to the apartments to helping
people at night, emergency problems, backups, water leaks. I
run some of the equipment, heating, air conditioning. I
assisted in operating the boiler system for the hot water. We
cleaned the pools, we operated the swimming pool, just about
Richard Nichols - Direct
anything as far as maintenance was concerned to the buildings,
and also escorted other people, the contractors that we had
come in to do jobs that were a little bit too big for us to do.
Q. A pretty big building?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many units did it have?
A. 273 apartments.
Q. A pretty big job for a maintenance man.
I assume you were on call after hours.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What were your regular work hours, though?
A. We worked Monday through Friday; and me and another
gentleman -- we rotated the shift work, which would be you'd be
on call. One of us would come in from 8:00 to 6; one of the
other one, if you wasn't on call, you came in at 7:00 that
morning till 5 that evening. And you just did work Monday
through Friday. And if you was on call, you was on call that
weekend. And if anything happened, you came in and handled it.
Q. Let me focus our attention, Mr. Nichols, now, on one day.
A. Okay.
Q. April 19, 1995.
A. Yes.
Q. At that date, who was in your family?
A. At that time, we were taking care of my little nephew,
also, Chad Allen. He's approximately the same age as my oldest
Richard Nichols - Direct
son. And he was staying with us, and we was taking care of
him. He needed -- it was just him and his dad there, and he
needed other people to be around. So we brought him with us.
Q. How long had he been living with you and your wife before
April 19?
A. Oh, at least a month to almost two months, maybe.
Q. Now, on April 19, 1995, did you and your wife have plans to
take Chad to a doctor's appointment?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Let's tell the jury a little bit about that day.
A. Okay. Well, we had -- we decided that we was going to go
ahead and take Chad to the doctor. We was going to do it as a
family, being as he was staying with us. We was going to give
him the security that he could come to us, that we was taking
care of him. That's the way we do with my boys. Both of us go
on doctor's appointments. So I made arrangement to go with him
and my wife to this doctor's appointment.
I was supposed to meet my wife downstairs in front of
the building at 9:00 that morning.
Q. What time did you go to work at Regency Towers?
A. I went to work at 7:00 that morning.
Q. And what job were you doing in the early hours of April 19
at the Regency Towers?
A. That morning, I was working on a counter top. And it was
supposed to be 6-foot in diameter with a 45-degree cut at one
Richard Nichols - Direct
end. And we had purchased this counter top. It was supposed
to be 6 feet long, and it was a quarter inch too short. And so
for some reason, I hung around to tell my supervisor that the
counter top was too short, which threw me 2 minutes off.
Q. We've all had the experience where things don't fit.
A. Right.
Q. That's what happened to you that morning?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you stopped and reported that to your boss as you were
making plans to exit the building initially?
A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Q. Where exactly were you to meet Bertha?
A. Down front in front of the Regency Towers Apartments.
Q. What street would that be on?
A. That would be on 5th Street, the same street as the Murrah
Federal Building.
Q. And did you exit the building that morning?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And tell the jury what happened.
A. I'd come down, got off the elevator; and I'd heard my wife
asking the security guard, you know, that she wanted to see me.
And she'd heard my keys. I wear keys on the side of my belt
loop. And she heard them jingling. She started laughing; and
she said: "Well, here he comes now. I can hear him," because
she couldn't see me because the elevator was behind a wall.
Richard Nichols - Direct
And I turned a corner and I told her, "yeah, I'm coming."
As I got up to her, we met there in the -- it's a
little foyer there. There's two glass doors. I went in
through one glass door and met her, and we exited out the glass
doors close to the street.
I took approximately two steps when there was a
horrific explosion. And we felt like heat and pressure.
Pressure, and it kind of spun us around a little bit.
Q. Where was your wife, Mr. Nichols, at the moment --
A. She was right at my side.
Q. What did you do?
A. I grabbed her. And she had asked what happened. And I
thought the -- excuse me.
Q. Mr. Nichols, why don't you take a moment and just pour
yourself a glass of water there.
A. I get this way with my wife, so . . .
Anyways, I grabbed her. And she yelled out, "What's
going on?" And I thought the boilers in our building had
blowed up. I'd just graduated from boiler school that night,
and I was going to get my diploma. And that's what I thought.
So I grabbed her and I told her that the boilers had blown up.
And we made a lunge for the car, and 'cause my little nephew --
he was still in the car --
Q. What kind of a car was it?
A. It's a 1990 red Ford Festiva. We opened up the door. And
Richard Nichols - Direct
my wife bent down to get him out of the seat belt, because all
the stuff was coming down. We was getting showered with glass.
Q. Could you tell where the glass was coming from?
A. Just above us at that time. It was just everywhere. And I
knew the doors behind us exploded. And so as she was -- she
was getting, getting him undone. She was kind of bent down and
kind of setting on the doorjamb itself, trying to get him out
of the car, 'cause like I said, we was thinking that our
building was coming down.
And I heard something from the left of me which would
have been in the direction of the Murrah Federal Building. And
it was up high, and I turned and I looked. And I seen this
humongous object coming to us out the air. And it was spinning
like a boomerang. And you could hear this "woo-woo-woo-woo"
noise. And I looked and I seen it; and I told her -- I said,
"Get down," 'cause this object was coming straight at us.
And I can't remember -- I think I pushed her on down
into the floorboard; and as I did, this object hit the front of
the car on the passenger side of the windshield, which drove
the back of the car up into the air and then shot the car out
of my hand and approximately back about 10 feet. And I run
back. I grabbed my wife, and I grabbed Chad, and I kind of
hovered over them like an old mother hen and took off across
the street with them.
As I just, just as I got across the street, I seen a
Richard Nichols - Direct
block come down, and it crushed this garage door. So I changed
my mind of going that way. And I turned to my left and was
heading back down 5th Street towards Hudson Street, and I got
to a little spot probably about 10 feet more away. And I
looked at them, and I asked them again if they was okay, and
they both reassured me that they was okay.
So that's when I kind of laid Chad down and checked
him over, not knowing if he knew if he was okay or not. And he
was all right. But he had a starting of a bump on the top of
his head, forehead. And I made sure that he was okay again.
And I looked up the street, and I could see all this
black smoke coming up from behind the Water Resources building.
And then I looked over at the car, and that's when I first
noticed that that was an axle that hit us.
And I told my wife -- I said, "It was a car bomb.
Somebody blew up the Water Resources." And still at this time,
I didn't know that the Murrah Federal Building had been
damaged.
So I looked up at my building, and I could see the
curtains coming out of the windows. And pretty near every
window on 5th Street side was blown clean out. There were some
gentlemen on the scaffold up high. I seen them, and I hollered
to them to see if they was okay, and they waved and they
climbed in through the window.
I told my wife -- I says, "You go ahead. You take
Richard Nichols - Direct
Chad and you -- you go on to the hospital." I says, "I got to
get back in my building." I says, "I've got keys. I got to
go, see if anybody's hurt in there and get people out."
Q. Is that what you did, Mr. Nichols?
A. Yes, sir. I started going back across the street. And
that's when I looked up 5th Street towards where the Murrah
Federal Building was. And it was just like there was a, like a
brief pause in the smoke and just everything just kind of
separated; and you could see that the whole front of the Murrah
Federal Building was completely demolished. It was down. And
I told my wife that it was the Murrah Federal Building. But I
said it was another building at the time.
Q. Mr. Nichols, you've described this axle that came crashing
down on your car.
A. Yes.
Q. Was there anything else that struck your vehicle?
A. Yes, sir. There was a trailer hitch that came down by my
feet and hit the driver's -- driver's front tire and mashed the
rim on it, which also shoved the car backwards.
Q. Did you see the path that the trailer hitch took towards
your car?
A. I seen it later. You could tell where it came down and hit
the sidewalk. It chopped off a sign, one of those perforated
signs that's supposed to snap off. It took it off. It took a
sign out for -- it was a Marlboro Cigarette sign. It's one
Richard Nichols - Direct
that you set outside on a little tripod. And it moves in the
wind so it doesn't tip over. And it took that out, and it came
straight on down and hit the front of my car.
Q. And how far were from you that position when it struck the
driver's side tire?
A. Three feet.
Q. Mr. Nichols, take a look at the accordion folder that's up
there and see if you can't find four photographs that I've
marked 631, 632, 633, and 959.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do each of those four photographs depict the damage
done to your vehicle and its proximity to the other buildings
in downtown Oklahoma City as it appeared on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, for the record, 633 has
previously been admitted; but I would move at this time the
other three exhibits: 631, 632, and 959.
MR. JONES: No objection.
THE COURT: They are received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Nichols, we'll start with 631, and you can either look
at it on the screen or the original photograph in front of you.
A. Okay.
Q. Just tell the jury what we're looking at.
A. Down in the lower left-hand corner is the passenger's side
Richard Nichols - Direct
front of my car. And we're looking up 5th Street towards the
Murrah Federal Building. The Murrah Federal Building would be
in the upper right-hand corner.
Q. Let me ask you: You can't tell from the photograph, but is
the Regency Tower on the same grade as the Murrah Building?
A. No, sir. We're at a slight downgrade from the Murrah
Federal Building.
Q. How high in the air was this axle that you saw when it came
whirling through the air?
A. It was above -- if you look at the left-hand side of the
picture, upper left-hand side, you'll see some -- it's an
awning over the building. When I seen the axle coming, it was
coming from the Murrah Federal Building, and it was above this
awning.
Q. You're referring to this awning that appears --
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- that I'm pointing to right now?
A. Yes, sir. Right in this area.
Q. And that's when you got the first glance of this flying
axle?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What's the distance, if you know, from this position here
at the Ford vehicle to the front public entrance on 5th Street
of the Murrah Building?
A. I walked it off one day, and it took me 190 paces. And if
Richard Nichols - Direct
I'm taking a 30-inch stride, I calculate approximately
175 feet, so I'd say anywhere from 4- to 500 feet.
Q. Thank you, Mr. Nichols. Let me ask you to look at 959 now.
A. Okay.
Q. Tell the jury what you're looking at there, please.
A. We're looking at the damage to my car on April 19.
Q. Using this photograph, describe how it was that the axle
actually struck your vehicle.
A. The axle itself . . . okay -- hit in this area. It damaged
the window. It knocked the dash out along here into the
passenger's seat. It bent this door out. It drove the back of
the car upward. And this is approximately halfway, this pole
right here, from where we was parked. We was parked 8 to
10 feet up this way. This is the trailer hitch that hit this
tire on this side of the truck -- car, and drove it backwards.
And it just completely demolished out the car and the top of
the engine. It just crushed it.
Q. Which part of your car did the axle first strike?
A. It struck it right -- right here at this dash and
windshield and then kind of laid across this whole area right
in this area right here.
Q. At the time it hit, was anybody seated in that passenger
seat?
A. Yes, sir, my little nephew was in the passenger rear -- I
mean the driver's rear, which is right back here. My wife was
Richard Nichols - Direct
setting down onto the doorjamb, and was trying to get out his
seat belt. And I was holding onto the door.
Q. And had Chad moved from his position in the front to the
back while waiting for you?
A. Yes, sir. He did that prior to my wife -- as my wife came
into the Regency Tower, he got out and got behind the driver's
seat.
Q. Let me show you Exhibit 632.
A. Yes.
Q. Can you show the jury where the trailer hitch is that you
were referring to in this photograph?
A. That trailer hitch is right here. And it struck my tire.
It's real hard to see. But it's -- yes, sir; right there, on
the back side, and it just flattened the rim in that area.
Q. Now, based on this picture, looks like the back end of your
Ford is up on the curb.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is your wife a better driver than this?
A. Oh, a lot better driver.
Q. All right. Was the car on the street --
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- when the axle hit?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did it end up on the curb as a result --
A. Yes, as a result of the axle coming down, forcing the back
Richard Nichols - Direct
of the car in an upward position and then this piece hitting it
at the same time the axle, it drove it backwards and kind of
cocked it back in and up on the curb. And that's probably
about a 7- to 8-inch curb that it went up on.
Q. Mr. Nichols, now turn to your folder and see if you can't
find a series of Exhibits marked 670A. There should be a total
of 27 of them in a group exhibit.
A. Okay. Okay.
Q. You've looked at these photographs before coming to court?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recognize the scenes that are depicted in each of
those 27 photographs?
A. Yes, sir. These are the still photographs from the video
camera of the Regency Tower.
Q. And which video camera?
A. It was on the entry into the building.
Q. Looking out onto 5th Street?
A. Looking out onto 5th Street, yes, sir.
Q. Do some of these photographs capture some of the events in
your testimony?
A. Yes, sir. They capture myself coming off the elevator.
They capture my wife pulling up to the front of the building.
You can see her waiting out there for me, because usually, like
I say, I'm usually prompt and I'm usually there. It shows her
entering into the building, and then it shows her getting ready
Richard Nichols - Direct
to go out of the building.
Q. Mr. Nichols, with your help, I want to publish these to the
jury.
MR. MACKEY: They're previously admitted, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. And ask you to describe what you see in each scene.
A. Okay, this is the entry door to the Regency Tower
Apartments as looking out to 5th Street.
Q. Mr. Nichols, can you take your pen and clean the screen
there.
A. Yes.
Q. Shows the scene on 8:55:48 looking out onto 5th Street?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what do we see in the next photograph, 8:55:50?
A. Same view, but this is my wife. If I can get it up there.
Right here in our little Ford Festiva, she's pulling up to the
front.
Q. Get a better shot of that vehicle in the next photograph,
8:55:52.
A. Yes, sir. Which is right here.
Q. Does 8:55:53, this photograph, show where your wife parked
the Ford Fiesta (sic) that morning?
A. Yes, sir. This is where she was setting at, which is right
there.
Richard Nichols - Direct
Q. What's the approximate distance between that parked spot
and the support pole that you've previously identified?
A. I'd say it was anywhere from 8 to 10 feet, which is right
here where the car ended up. The front of the car was almost
even with this pole right here.
Q. And you were a little bit late, so she had to sit there for
a while; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And 8:56:50, you see another scene and the car is in the
same position?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Describe what you see in the photograph bearing the frame
8:56:53.
A. This is the -- looking out the same, which my wife is still
parked here in this area. And this is a Ryder truck.
Q. And had you observed that Ryder truck in the previous
photograph?
A. Not in the previous photograph, no, sir.
Q. So this is the first photograph, 8:56:53, which shows what
appears to be a Ryder truck across 5th Street?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And are both vehicles in the same position in the next
frame, 8:56:56?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Same position at 8:56:58?
Richard Nichols - Direct
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Both vehicles in the same position?
A. Yes, sir. Both vehicles.
Q. 8:57:01?
A. Yes, sir. They're both still setting there.
Q. You see some foot traffic out front of the Regency Towers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Both vehicles in the same place at 8:57:05?
A. Yes, sir. They're both setting in the same place.
Q. 8:57:08?
A. Yes, sir. They're -- both vehicles are still setting in
the same spot.
Q. 8:57:11?
A. Same.
Q. 8:57:12?
A. They're still setting in the same spot.
Q. 8:57:13?
A. They're still in the same spot.
Q. Take a moment, Mr. Nichols, and study the position of the
Ryder in this vehicle (sic), 8:57:13.
And now let me show you 8:57:15.
A. The Ryder truck is starting to move.
Q. How do you know that?
A. From this -- if you'll watch the doorjamb here, the tire of
the Ryder truck is approximately even with it. On the one
Richard Nichols - Direct
previous to it, the tire was back in this area, the back of the
truck.
Q. The next frame, one second later, 8:57:16?
A. It's still setting in approximately the same spot.
Q. It's moved forward --
A. Moved forward and then stopped.
Q. And 8:57:18, what do you see?
A. It's gone. My wife's car is still there, but the Ryder
truck has left its area.
Q. Let me jump ahead, Mr. Nichols, now, to 8:59:55. And what
do we see there, please.
A. That's my wife. She's coming into the entry door. She's
starting to look for me.
Q. 8:59:58?
A. That's her coming into the door. She's talking to the
security guard.
Q. Straight up 9:00?
A. She's still waiting at the -- talking with the security
guard at the front.
Q. 15 seconds after 9:00?
A. That's me getting off the elevator. And at the lobby and
heading towards the front door.
And that's a picture of my wife. I'm approximately
right at the door because she's getting ready to exit the door.
Q. 20 seconds after 9:00?
Richard Nichols - Direct
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was this the last image recorded by the security camera --
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- on April 19 at the Regency Towers?
A. Yes, sir, this one right here was.
Q. Mr. Nichols, in the course of working 10 years at Regency
Towers, did you become familiar with the tenants? Did you know
them by name and sight?
A. I knew quite a few of them by name, the majority of them by
sight.
Q. And did you know whether on April 19, 1995, the tenants at
your building included Baylee Almon, Aaron and Elijah
Coverdale, Woodrow Brady, and John Moss?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Nichols, what route would you have taken on April 19
after leaving the front of the Regency Tower?
A. I would have drove right past the Murrah Federal Building.
Q. Had you been on time, where would you have been at the time
of the explosion?
A. Approximately, either in the intersection or just going to
the Murrah Federal Building at the time, in that little car.
Q. Mr. Nichols, thanks for coming up.
A. Thank you.
MR. MACKEY: Nothing else.
THE COURT: Any questions.
MR. JONES: I have no questions for Mr. Nichols.
THE COURT: Then I take it he may be excused.
MR. MACKEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
MR. HARTZLER: The Government will call Regina Bonny.
Ms. Behenna will question her.
THE COURT: This will take a while?
MS. BEHENNA: It could take about 20 minutes.
THE COURT: We'll take our recess.
Members of the jury, we'll take our morning rest stop,
and as usual I'll caution you to refrain from . . . .
Refrain from any discussion with respect to the case
or any aspect of it and continue to avoid things outside of our
evidence.
You're excused.
(Jury out at 10:14 a.m.)
THE COURT: Court's in recess, 20 minutes.
(Recess at 10:15 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 10:35 a.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
(Jury in at 10:35 a.m.)
THE COURT: All right. Ms. Bonny.
You'll have to stand and raise your right hand.
Face the clerk there, please.
(Regina Bonny affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
Please state your full name and spell your last name
for the record.
THE WITNESS: Regina Bonny. Last name is spelled
B-O-N-N-Y.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Where do you live, Ms. Bonny?
A. In Oklahoma City.
Q. Are you employed?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. For the jury, did you recently have back surgery?
A. Neck surgery.
Q. Last week?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's the reason for the collar?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell the jury where you're employed?
A. For the Midwest City Police Department.
Q. How long have you been with the Midwest City Police
Department?
A. Approximately 12 1/2 years.
Q. What is your rank or title with the police department?
A. Narcotics investigator.
Regina Bonny - Direct
Q. Do you have a rank?
A. Corporal.
Q. Were you assigned to the Drug Enforcement Administration
Task Force?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell the jury a little bit about that task force?
A. Yes. I was assigned there in 1993. My duties were to
purchase narcotics, sell narcotics, work conspiracy cases on
narcotic traffickers.
Q. And you do that along with agents of the DEA?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said you've been doing that how long?
A. With the DEA?
Q. With the Task Force; right.
A. Since 1993.
Q. Did you office in the DEA space?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was the DEA space located in Oklahoma City?
A. It was on the 9th floor.
Q. Let me have you look on the computer monitor on the witness
table at Government's Exhibit 952, the 7th floor, which has
previously been admitted.
Do you see it? Well -- there we go. Do you have it
in front of you?
A. Yes.
Regina Bonny - Direct
Q. Can you tell the jury first of all what space the DEA had
in Oklahoma City?
A. They had the 7th floor and the 9th floor.
Q. I believe in front of you, you have the 7th floor.
A. Yes.
Q. Can you describe that space for the jury.
A. That space is the Drug Enforcement Administration's
diversion office.
Q. And was there -- were there employees, DEA employees, that
officed there?
A. Yes. There was five employees there.
Q. And who were they?
A. That was -- my mind went blank.
That was Lola Donetta, Betty Robins, Dave Friday, and
Ruth Carter.
Q. Now, the DEA had other space on the 9th floor. Is that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. Of the Murrah Building?
A. Yes.
Q. I believe in front of you, you should have the 9th floor.
A. Not yet.
There it is.
Q. All right. Can you describe the DEA space that was located
on the 9th floor of the Murrah Building for the jury?
Regina Bonny - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. I'm sorry, Officer Bonny. There is a pen on the desk, if
it would assist you in diagraming the space where people were
located.
A. Do I write directly onto --
Q. On the screen.
A. Okay. DEA had two office spaces on the 9th floor, one on
the -- both of them were on the north side of the building.
And one was on the east end and one was on the west end.
Q. Okay. Why don't you describe the east-end office for us
first.
A. Okay. How do you want me to describe it?
Q. Well, can you just show where the entrance was with the
pen?
A. Sure. The entrance to DEA on the east end is right here.
Q. And what was that that you walked into? Was that a
reception area?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that -- why don't you just describe for us who officed
in that space. Maybe that would be easier.
A. Okay. There were five secretaries in that office, and
there were nine agents in that office.
Q. DEA agents?
A. It was Task Force officers and DEA agents in that office.
We were -- they were in this office and in the other office,
Regina Bonny - Direct
because the office space was small.
Q. And can you show the jury where the other -- the west-end
space was, the DEA space?
A. Yes.
Q. You can just mark that.
A. The entrance was right here.
Q. And that was the task force space?
A. That was Task Force and agents.
Q. Okay. And who officed in that space?
A. I officed in that space, Agent Frank Marino, Agent Kevin
Waters, Task Force Officer Steve Day, Task Force Officer Eddie
Joe Dillard, Task Force Officer V. Underwood.
Q. When you refer to them as Task Force officer, are those
police officers that are on loan from different police
departments around Oklahoma City?
A. Yes.
Q. Officer Bonny, were you on the 9th floor of the Murrah
Building on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. What time did you get to the Murrah Building?
A. It was approximately about 8:15.
Q. And what did you do when you got there?
A. I went to my office, dropped off my briefcase and my purse,
and then walked back to the other end of the office to get
coffee.
Regina Bonny - Direct
Q. And the other end you're referring to would be the east
end, the main office?
A. Yes.
Q. Of the DEA office that's looking out on the northeast side
of the building?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do when you got there? Who did you see that
morning?
A. The first person I saw was Rona, and she was one of the
secretaries. And I saw Carrol. She was also a secretary. I
saw Dave Schickendanz. He was an agent. And then I saw Carrie
Lenz.
And then I went and got coffee; and then I was there
probably five or ten minutes, and then Shelly had come in,
Shelly Bland.
Q. And did you stay there and discuss things with them that
morning?
A. Yes, I did. Carrie Lenz was pregnant and she had brought
in her ultrasound, so all the girls were looking over the
ultrasound and cutting up about where all the body parts were
where the baby was located at.
Q. And then you spent a few minutes with them. And then did
do you go back to the Task Force space?
A. Yes. I probably spent -- I spent quite a while down there.
It was probably about 20, 25 minutes, maybe a little longer
Regina Bonny - Direct
than that there; but then I went back down to the other end,
yes.
Q. Did you see Agent Kenny McCullough that morning?
A. No, I did not.
Q. You walk into the Task Force, west end of the building.
A. Yes.
Q. What do you do when you get there?
A. I start typing up a report. I had been there approximately
five or ten minutes typing, and the first thing that happened
was the lights went out and my computer went off. Then I stood
up and then I heard the explosion, and the last thing I saw was
a coat rack.
Q. Were your knocked unconscious?
A. Yes.
Q. At some point in time after the explosion, did you come to?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you find yourself?
A. I was against a filing cabinet, and there was debris all on
top of me; so I just tried to get my way out.
Q. And can you mark on the screen where you ended up? If you
could click it, the pen, those red marks will come off.
There you go.
A. I was right in here.
Q. That is where your desk was located, or is that where you
ended up?
Regina Bonny - Direct
A. This is where my desk was located, and I ended up back over
up in here.
There was -- there was no walls or ceilings or no
doors.
Q. After the explosion?
A. Right.
Q. So you come to and you find you're covered with debris and
you start digging yourself out. What did you do next?
A. Once I was able to get out, I stood up. I looked around,
and I figured that a bomb had went off. I started hollering to
see if I could get a response from anybody, and I heard cries
for help; and I went to two men who was crying for help.
Q. Where were the men located?
A. They were over in here, that area.
I'm sorry.
Q. Did you know who they were?
A. Yes. They were Jim Staggs and Vernon Buster.
Q. Who did Jim Staggs and Vernon Buster work for?
A. The Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
Q. They were in that Attachment TF space?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do next?
A. The first person I got to was Vernon. He was covered in
debris, and he had a piece of metal stuck in his body and he
couldn't get up. So I pulled it out and took all the debris
Regina Bonny - Direct
off of him.
Then he was able to get up. He was bleeding a little
bit everywhere, but it wasn't bad bleeding; so I told him to
stay with me and we went to Jim. And he was bleeding bad from
the head. I took off his shirt, and I stuck part of the shirt
down to the hole of his head; and I wrapped the rest of the
shirt around his head.
Q. Did you help them out of the building?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do?
A. We couldn't find our way at first because there was -- you
know, the doors were gone and the walls were gone and there was
debris and wires everywhere; so it took us a while to find our
way out. And we went out --
Q. Are you trying to draw on the screen?
A. Yeah.
Q. Is it not working?
A. Yeah. I was trying to find where we come out at.
It was over in here.
Q. Did you make it to the stairwell?
A. Pardon me?
Q. Did you make it to the stairwell?
A. Yes.
Q. Which stairwell?
A. It would be the one on the west side. There was two
Regina Bonny - Direct
stairwells, one on the west and one on the east.
Q. Can you mark it?
A. Right here.
Q. Okay. So you took both of the gentlemen down the stairs
there --
A. Yes.
Q. -- Officer Bonny?
A. Yes.
Q. You take them all the way down to where?
A. To outside. When I got outside, I saw Agent Schickendanz,
Betty Robins, and I took both of the men to them and said to
get them help. I asked Dave where the girls were at, and he
had said they were still up there.
Q. What girls are you talking about?
A. I'm talking about the secretaries, Carrol and Carrie and
Rona and Shelly.
Q. That you talked to just minutes before?
A. Right.
Q. Do you go back in the building?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Up to the 9th floor?
A. Yes. I couldn't go through on this side. I couldn't get
through here, so I went through this way.
And once I get -- I don't think it was that far. Once
I get -- it was about right in here -- our whole office is
Regina Bonny - Direct
gone.
Q. Do you hear -- do you know Agent Luke Franey?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you hear him?
A. Yes. When I see that our office is gone, I start
hollering, hoping that maybe they can hear me. And then Luke
hollers back at me, so I try to find where he's at; and I come
back over in here. And I can't get to him because there is a
big hole in between us. I told him that I would go get some
help because he couldn't get out.
Q. And you leave the building?
A. Yeah. I leave off the 9th floor, and I stop on various
other floors hunting for people.
Q. Officer Bonny, do you know how many employees of the DEA
were killed on the morning of April 19, 1995?
A. Five.
Q. I'm going to have you look -- I believe in front of you is
a folder, and in it should be Government's Exhibit 1082.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, with the marshal's
assistance . . .
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. There is a chart right behind you.
Yeah. If you would just show that.
Officer Bonny, can you look at the chart that the
Regina Bonny - Direct
marshal has?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you familiar with that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know each of the employees of the DEA?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission
of Government's Exhibit 1082.
MR. JONES: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received. You may display it.
MS. BEHENNA: With your assistance, can you make it
more -- there you go, so Officer Bonny can see it well. Bring
in that left a little bit further. There you go.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Are you able to see that, Officer Bonny?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you briefly identify and describe what each employee
did for the DEA?
A. Yes.
Q. Just briefly.
A. Ken McCullough was an agent with DEA, and I worked several
cases with him.
Q. You're talking about Kenny McCullough, whose picture is on
the bottom right side?
A. Yes.
Regina Bonny - Direct
Q. And next to Agent McCullough?
A. Pardon me?
Q. Next to Agent McCullough?
A. Carrie Lenz. She was the one that I was talking about that
was pregnant, and she was the person who handled all of our
seized assets.
Q. Okay. Up on the top row?
A. Is Carrol Fields. She had worked with DEA for 30 years.
She was the main secretary, the rock of the office.
Q. And next to Carrol?
A. Is Rona Chafey, and she was a secretary who helped type our
reports, agent reports.
Q. And next to Rona on the top row on the left side?
A. Is Shelly Bland. She also helped type agent reports.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, again with the marshal's
permission -- or assistance, I'd like to put up the 9th floor
chart.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Officer Bonny, in front of you in an envelope are name
plates.
Officer Bonny, can you get down from the witness stand
and on that board place each name where that employee's office
or desk was located?
A. Rona's desk was right in here.
Regina Bonny - Direct
Q. Officer Bonny, it's okay. If you want to go ahead and
place the names up there, you don't have to describe them.
A. Okay.
MS. BEHENNA: That's all I have.
THE COURT: All right. Do you have any questions,
Mr. Jones?
MR. JONES: I do. Just a few, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Ms. Bonny, how long had you been assigned to the Task Force
before April 19?
A. Approximately two years.
Q. And that's where you worked full-time?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the DEA have an evidence locker there in the Alfred P.
Murrah Building?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know where that was?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was it?
A. Do you want me to show you --
Q. Well, if it's more comfortable at the desk, that's fine.
A. It's not on this screen.
Q. All right. Then was it on the 9th floor?
Regina Bonny - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. All right. I think there is a pointer, perhaps.
Can you just point to where it is easily?
A. I'll have to get down.
Q. Don't do that. Just tell me, was it on the east side?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Whose desk is closest to it?
A. I'd say it would be a tie between Carrol Fields and Don
Webb.
Q. Is it one of the rooms where the east wall --
A. No.
Q. What ordinarily was kept in that evidence locker?
A. Seized paperwork.
Q. Drugs?
A. Guns.
Q. I'm sorry? What?
A. Guns.
Q. Guns.
A. There was -- no drugs was ever kept in there.
Q. Were there any type of diversionary devices or stun guns or
flash bangs, anything like that?
A. No.
Q. Now, on the night of April 18 -- that is, Tuesday night
before the morning -- was the DEA engaged in any type of
operation other than the one in Norman, Oklahoma?
Regina Bonny - Cross
A. Would you ask that question again?
Q. Sure. On the night of the 18th, which would be Tuesday
night, there has been -- let me back up and put it this way:
There has been previous testimony in this case that there was a
joint DEA/ATF operation I believe down in Norman, Oklahoma, the
night before involving some agents from the ATF. My question
to you is leaving aside that operation, which was ongoing, were
there any other DEA operations on Tuesday night that, say,
involved more than two agents?
A. It's possible, but --
Q. Are you aware of any?
A. No.
Q. Specifically since you're from Midwest City, are you aware
of any around Interstate 40 between Oklahoma City and Midwest
City?
A. I don't know. I couldn't answer that.
Q. All right. Ms. Behenna asked you about your neck brace,
and I think you indicated you had surgery about a week ago?
A. Yes.
Q. When were you first notified you would be a witness in this
case?
A. I don't -- I don't remember.
Q. Was it before the start of the trial? That would have been
on March 31.
A. Yes -- it was possible, they said. Possible.
Regina Bonny - Cross
Q. Okay. When did you know for sure you would be a witness?
A. They sent me a letter in the mail.
Q. And do you recall when that was?
A. No, I don't. I don't remember.
Q. Has it been in the last two or three weeks?
A. It was longer than that.
Q. All right. Now, is the operation that you had related to
your injuries in the bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. And in what sense?
A. What do you mean?
Q. What type of operation? Can you describe it for me?
A. They fused the vertebrae and took ruptured disks off of the
spinal cord.
Q. And was that injuries you sustained as a result of falling
or something hitting you, if you know? I mean --
A. They just said it was from impact.
Q. Impact?
A. Yeah.
MR. JONES: Thank you very much.
MS. BEHENNA: Nothing else, your Honor.
THE COURT: I take it she's excused.
MS. BEHENNA: Yes.
THE COURT: Agreed.
MR. JONES: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next witness.
MR. HARTZLER: Government calls Phil Long.
Ms. Behenna will question him.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand.
(Philip Long affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Philip David long, L-O-N-G.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Are you employed, Sergeant Long?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Where are you employed?
A. I'm employed with the Oklahoma City Police Department.
Q. And how long have you been with the Oklahoma City Police
Department?
A. Since 1980.
Q. And your rank is sergeant?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Were you also assigned to the DEA Task Force?
A. Yes, ma'am. In June of 1992, I was assigned to the Drug
Philip Long - Direct
Enforcement Administration Task Force out of the Oklahoma City
district office.
Q. And the Oklahoma City district office of the DEA was
located where?
A. At 200 N.W. 5th in Oklahoma City.
Q. The Murrah Building?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. On the 9th floor?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And is that where you officed?
A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
Q. Did you have a partner that you worked with at the Task
Force?
A. Yes, ma'am. Special Agent Kenneth McCullough.
Q. He's a DEA agent?
A. Yes, ma'am. He's a DEA agent.
Q. How long have you known Special Agent Kenny McCullough?
A. I first met Ken in approximately June of 1990, while I was
still at the Special Projects Unit of the Oklahoma City Police
Department. When I was assigned to the DEA Task Force out of
the Oklahoma City office in June of 1992, Agent Ken McCullough
and I started working cases intensively at this time.
Q. And you worked all of your cases together?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Can you tell the jury what you and Agent McCullough were
Philip Long - Direct
doing the evening of April 18, 1995?
A. On April 18, the -- all the agents in the office during the
daytime up till late hours on the 18th had been involved in
numerous search warrants in the Oklahoma City area. Myself and
Agent McCullough were also involved in another case in the
Oklahoma City area that after we had got back to the office
late that evening, Ken McCullough and myself had decided to go
out later that evening, plus early the next morning, to do a
trash collection on a residence in Oklahoma City.
Q. Now, you and Agent McCullough, along with other agents of
the DEA, were involved in a search warrant earlier on the 18th?
A. Yes, numerous search warrants.
Q. Do you remember the name of the case?
A. I believe it was the Ed Studson case.
Q. And then after you returned to the office, you and Agent
McCullough went out and did what you called a trash run?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And approximately what time did you do that?
A. I believe we met at the office in Oklahoma City at the
Murrah Building approximately around 10 or 11:00 the evening of
the 18th.
Q. Do you recall the case that you and Agent McCullough were
working on?
A. Yes, ma'am. It's a case under the name of Alvarado.
Q. And you went and did a trash run?
Philip Long - Direct
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And for the members of the jury who don't understand what
that is, can you just briefly explain what that is?
A. Yes, ma'am. A trash collection is where on specified days
you place trash out at the curb of your residence or up by your
house. On specified days that the trash is collected, we'll go
out and go through the trash for any type of evidence involved
in a case that we may be involved in.
Q. Sergeant Long, what time did you then get back to the
office?
A. I believe approximately the morning of April 19, around 2
or 3:00 in the morning, myself and Act McCullough returned to
the lower level of the Murrah Building, where the parking was
of the Murrah Building.
Q. Underneath the Murrah Building?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Did you all agree to meet up again on the morning -- later
in the morning on April 19?
A. Yes, ma'am. Ken and I talked on the way back to the office
that we had found some possible evidence that was involved in
the case that we had just come back from the trash collection.
We had agreed to meet at the office at the Murrah Building at
9:00 that morning. Once we got to the office at 9:00, we were
going to go to the Oklahoma City Police Department forensic lab
and meet with Chemist Richard Dawes.
Philip Long - Direct
Q. Sergeant Long, did you make it to the Murrah Building at
9:00 in the morning on April 19?
A. No, ma'am, I did not.
Q. But that's the time you were supposed to meet Agent
McCullough?
A. Yes, ma'am.
MS. BEHENNA: May I have just a moment?
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. BEHENNA: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MR. JONES: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. I take it he's excused?
MS. BEHENNA: Yes, your Honor, he is.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next.
MR. HARTZLER: We'll call Eli Lopez. Ms. Behenna will
question him.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Elias Lopez affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Elias Lopez, L-O-P-E-Z.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Elias Lopez - Direct
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Agent Lopez, where do you live?
A. At the present time I'm assigned to Tegucigalpa, Honduras.
Q. Are you employed?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. How are you employed?
A. I'm a senior criminal or supervisor criminal investigator
for the Department of Justice, Drug Enforcement Administration.
Q. The DEA?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And how long have you been with the DEA?
A. I've been with the DEA approximately 13 years. Pardon me.
18 years.
Q. Prior to your assignment at Honduras, where were you
assigned?
A. I was the agent in charge of the Tulsa, Oklahoma, DEA
office.
Q. And how long had you been in Tulsa?
A. I stayed in Tulsa approximately 4 1/2 years.
Q. From what year to what year?
A. October, 1991, to March of this past year, 1996.
Q. If you can address your answers to me, Agent Lopez?
A. Okay.
Q. Prior to your assignment in Tulsa, where were you assigned?
A. I was assigned to Bogota, Colombia.
Elias Lopez - Direct
Q. On April 19, 1995, you were assigned to the Tulsa office,
though.
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Can you tell the jury where you were the morning of
April 19, 1995?
A. I was at my office in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Q. And did you hear that there had been an explosion in
Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what did you do after you heard that there had been an
explosion?
A. Well, the first thing I did, I did some -- I verified it by
news media. I notified our Dallas office, which is our res --
field division office and also notified the headquarters in
Washington, D.C. I assigned four DEA agents that work for me
to head to Oklahoma City, because at that point I could tell it
was the federal building where DEA office was housed. And I
started making some phone calls and setting arrangements for a
trauma center in Oklahoma City, getting trauma team members,
the clinicians, to assist. And then I went to Oklahoma City.
Q. You knew that it was the Murrah Building?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you knew that the DEA office was located in the Murrah
Building?
A. Yes, I did.
Elias Lopez - Direct
Q. And how did you know that?
A. During that period of time, I was going to Oklahoma City
about every -- every week, sometimes twice a week; and I'd go
to the office every time.
Q. Did you know the agents that were working in the Oklahoma
City office of the DEA?
A. Yes, I did. I knew them all.
Q. Later that morning, I assume you headed toward Oklahoma
City yourself?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What time did you arrive?
A. I arrived in Oklahoma City approximately about 10:30, 10:40
that morning.
Q. Okay. Where did you go when you got to Oklahoma City?
A. I went to -- the initial place, the Oklahoma City Special
Projects Office, which is about three blocks north or four
blocks north of the Murrah Federal Building.
Q. And did you learn at that time that there were some DEA
employees missing?
A. Yes. I met with -- with Don Webb, the agent in charge of
the Oklahoma City office. He had mentioned who had been
missing, or who was in the building and who was suspected as
still being in the building. And at that point, I went to the
building.
Q. Was that your assignment then, to stay at the site?
Elias Lopez - Direct
A. Well, self-imposed assignment, yes. I told Don Webb at
that point that I would send his office members to the special
office building and that I also had a trauma center being set
up at the hotel and the agents that I brought down, a lot of
the agents that would be arriving, would take over the office
site.
Q. What was the purpose for you to be down at the site on the
19th of April?
A. I was one of two people that knew the five people that we
suspected of being missing at that time for body
identification, recovery of records, DEA records.
Q. Were you then involved in the recovery of some of the DEA
employees?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Can you tell the jury -- and you're at the site for how
long?
A. I'm at the site for approximately 12, 13 days before I went
back to Tulsa.
Q. Beginning April 19, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell the jury if you were present when Carrie Lenz
was recovered from the building.
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Did you know Carrie?
A. Yes, I did.
Elias Lopez - Direct
Q. And were you able to identify her?
A. Yes, I was able to identify her.
Q. Were you also present when Agent Kenny McCullough was
recovered from the building?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Did you know Kenny McCullough?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Had you worked cases with him before?
A. I had worked with him, had numerous conversations with him,
yes.
Q. Were you also at the building site when Carrol Fields was
recovered from the building?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And you knew Carrol Fields?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you were able to identify her?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Were you present when Michelle Bland and Rona Chafey were
recovered from the building?
A. Not at the site, no.
Q. I believe in front of you in a folder, Agent Lopez, you
have Government's Exhibit 1089.
A. Excuse me.
Yes, I do.
Q. Can you identify that?
Elias Lopez - Direct
A. This is an appointment -- an affidavit of appointment for
Kenneth Glenn McCullough, appointing him as criminal
investigator for the Department of Justice, Drug Enforcement
Administration, at Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, I move for the admission of
Government's Exhibit 1089.
MR. JONES: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
MS. BEHENNA: And just for purposes of publishing it
to the jury, if I could have the ELMO.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. What's the date of that appointment affidavit?
A. The date is 7 February 1990.
Q. And an appointment affidavit is a document that describes
somebody as being a special agent of the DEA?
A. Yes, it's an oath of office and appointing him as a
criminal investigator and our title, special agents.
Q. Is that the date that Kenny McCullough became an agent of
the DEA?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Let me have you look at Government's Exhibit 1090.
Can you identify that?
A. Yes, I can. It's a standard Form 50. It's a government
form. It's a notification of personnel action.
Q. And is it for who?
Elias Lopez - Direct
A. The personnel action of Kenneth G. McCullough.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, I move for the admission of
Government's Exhibit 1090.
MR. JONES: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
MS. BEHENNA: May I publish it, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. My copy is not very good, Agent Lopez. Can you describe
for the jury what this is.
A. Yes. It the effective date of April 19, 1995. The action
and the nature of action is the -- is death and lists his --
Kenneth McCullough's name and his job series as a 1811, which
is a criminal investigator. And his location where he was
assigned was the Dallas field division, Oklahoma City,
Oklahoma, resident office.
Q. And that document describes him as being a special agent of
the DEA?
A. Yes, it does. It doesn't say "special agent," but the
occupation code on No. 9, which is a 1811, which is a criminal
investigator for the United States Government.
Q. Let me have you look now at Government's Exhibit 1091. Can
you identify that, Agent Lopez.
A. These are DEA credentials and a DEA badge in the name of
Kenneth Glenn McCullough as Special Agent, with his credential
Elias Lopez - Direct
numbers.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, I move for the admission of
Government's Exhibit 1091.
MR. JONES: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
MS. BEHENNA: May I publish it, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Had you seen these credentials before, Agent Lopez?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. You had seen them before April 19, 1995?
A. I don't think I've seen them before that, not these
particular credentials. I saw them on that day -- actually, I
saw them on the 21st of April.
Q. And how did you see them on the 21st of April, 1995?
A. I recovered these credentials from Mr. -- Special Agent
McCullough's body.
Q. Do you understand that Agent McCullough's death is the
subject of a murder count?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And was Agent Kenny McCullough killed while engaged in the
performance of his official duties on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, he was.
MS. BEHENNA: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you have any questions?
MR. JONES: No questions. Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: All right. I take it no objection to
excusing him?
MR. JONES: No objection, your Honor.
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next.
MR. HARTZLER: Government calls Pat Daly.
Ms. Wilkinson will question him.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, to expedite the
presentation of the evidence, we would like to move a series of
pieces of evidence and uncover this. If we could have about 5
minutes to do that, and we'll be able to go through this
witness' testimony rather quickly.
THE COURT: 5 minutes?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes.
THE COURT: I guess we'll recess for that 5-minute
period to assist in that.
So, members of the jury, we're going to excuse you for
about 5 minutes. And remember, that's lawyer's time; but we'll
let you know when we're ready. And of course, like all
recesses, please continue to follow the instructions at all
recesses.
You're excused.
(Jury out at 11:22 a.m.)
THE COURT: That's a generic jocularity, not a
personal insult.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. We'll be in recess subject to
call.
(Recess at 11:23 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 11:28 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
Congratulations.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well done.
Bring in the jury.
(Jury in at 11:28 a.m.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, I take it all back.
Ms. Wilkinson got things done in less than 5 minutes.
We'll bring the witness in.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Patrick Daly affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Patrick J. Daly, D-A-L-Y.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Proceed.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Good morning, Agent Daly. How are you?
A. Fine, thanks.
Q. Tell the jury how you're employed.
A. I'm a supervisory Special Agent for the FBI in the Chicago
office.
Q. And what does it mean that you're a supervisory special
agent?
A. I supervise a squad of agents and Task Force officers, and
we investigate domestic terrorism.
Q. How long have you been with the FBI?
A. Over 14 years.
Q. Do you have any prior law enforcement experience?
A. Yes. I was a police officer for six years.
Q. Where were you a police officer?
A. In Oak Park, Illinois, which borders the west side of
Chicago.
Q. You just told us that you're assigned to the Chicago field
division. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. How long have you been with the Chicago field division?
A. Approximately three years.
Q. So I take it you were there -- you were there -- that was
Patrick Daly - Direct
your assignment in April of 1995.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any other special duties or responsibilities in
the Chicago office?
A. I supervise the Evidence Response Team in the Chicago
office.
Q. Is that what's commonly referred to in the FBI as the ERT?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you had those duties as a supervisor of the
Evidence Response Team?
A. Approximately a little over two years.
Q. Tell us briefly what you do as the supervisor.
A. I approve assignments of the Evidence Response Team to
process crime scenes for FBI or local law enforcement
investigations.
Q. And do you, yourself, attend crime scenes and assist in the
collection and cataloguing of evidence?
A. I do on occasion, yes.
Q. Do you have any other specialized training or areas of
responsibilities as a special agent?
A. I've been trained as a bureau bomb technician, and I
perform those functions as needed.
Q. When did you first obtain your training as a bomb
technician?
A. I attended the FBI/U.S. Army school for bomb technicians in
Patrick Daly - Direct
1985.
Q. And after that, were you considered a qualified bomb
technician?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there a recertification process involved when you're a
bomb technician for the FBI?
A. Yes, there is an annual recertification at Redstone Arsenal
in Huntsville, Alabama.
Q. Were you a certified bomb technician in April of 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us briefly what you do as a bomb technician?
A. Well, within the FBI, we who are trained as bomb
technicians normally do not render safe explosive devices.
Q. What do you mean by "render safe"?
A. Cause the device to cease to function in the way it was
designed, make it safe. And my duties as a bomb technician
normally are to train local law enforcement or public safety
bomb technicians in render-safe techniques, as well as to train
public safety personnel in the processing of bombing crime
scenes, post-blast crime scenes.
Q. Approximately how many of those types of classes have you
taught?
A. Between 40 to 50 classes.
Q. Where have you taught those classes?
A. Around the country, in the Chicago area, and overseas.
Patrick Daly - Direct
Q. Before going to Oklahoma City, had you ever been to any
other major bombing crime scenes?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Which ones had you either viewed or participated in?
A. I was at the World Trade Center bombing, and I participated
in the evidence collection there in New York in 1993. I was
also on temporary assignment in Bogota, Colombia, in 1989, and
observed the explosion -- or the post-blast scene at the DAS
building. DAS, D-A-S, is the equivalent of the FBI in
Colombia.
Q. Let me turn your attention to April 19, 1995. Where were
you early that morning?
A. After arriving at work, I was -- I went to O'Hare Airport
to pick up another agent who was coming into Chicago, Jeffery
Hayes. And he and I were going to drive down to Redstone
Arsenal in Huntsville, Alabama, for our annual bomb technician
recertification.
Q. Were you able to attend that class?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Why not?
A. I was tasked that same day, April 19, 1995, to fly from
Chicago to Oklahoma City.
Q. Did Agent Hayes go to that course?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Was he also sent to Oklahoma City immediately after the
Patrick Daly - Direct
bombing?
A. Yes. He traveled with me.
Q. What did you do once you received your assignment to go to
Oklahoma City?
A. I went home, packed my clothing, packed my protective gear
and my tools that I would use at a post-blast bombing crime
scene.
Q. Tell the jury a little bit about those items that you just
mentioned.
A. The protective clothing would include helmets, coveralls,
shirts, pants, boots, and gloves.
And the tools might include -- or did include
flashlights, evidence collection bags, gloves, scales, etc.
Q. Now, were these clothes freshly laundered?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that your policy after you -- before you attend a
crime scene, to bring clean clothes?
A. Yes.
Q. For what purpose?
A. Two purposes: One, I usually like to wear clean clothes;
and the second -- the second is so that I try to minimize what
I would introduce foreign to the crime scene.
Q. What time did you arrive in Oklahoma City?
A. I would say approximately 6 p.m.
Q. And do you recall what the weather was like on April 19
Patrick Daly - Direct
around 6:00 that night?
A. It was overcast and cloudy; and then it began to rain
heavily, and thunder and lightening followed.
Q. Did you go to the crime scene -- that is, the area around
the Murrah Building -- the evening of the 19th when you
arrived?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Tell us what you did.
A. Myself and some of the other agents who had arrived at
the -- at Oklahoma City as well as some of the personnel
assigned to Oklahoma City went to the crime scene to do an
initial survey of what we would need to process that crime
scene.
Q. Did you see the Murrah Building that evening?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Tell the jury what you saw on the night of April 19 when
you walked the crime scene.
A. At the time, there was severe thunder, lightening, rain;
and we walked from the command post, which was two and a half,
three blocks away, to the building itself. I thought -- when I
first saw the building, it reminded me of the DAS building in
Bogota and the pictures I've seen of the American embassy and
the Marine Corps barracks in Beirut in 1983, which also had
been blown up by vehicle bombs.
I saw severe damage, and I saw a rescue attempt being
Patrick Daly - Direct
undertaken by the Oklahoma City Fire Department and other
people.
Q. What did you see on the streets as you walked towards the
Murrah Building?
A. I saw severe damage to surrounding structures, vehicles;
and I saw various vehicle parts laying on the streets, the
sidewalks, up in the trees.
Q. How did you recognize those to be vehicle parts?
A. I've seen those parts in that type of state, post-blast
state, many times previous, either in the schools I've taught
or in crime scenes I've processed.
Q. That evening as you were walking around the crime scene,
did you pick up any of the pieces of the vehicle parts that you
saw or any other debris?
A. I personally did not.
Q. What did you do that evening?
A. We did an initial survey, then came back to the crime -- or
the crime-scene post, command post, and made plans on how would
we process the scene, divide up personnel, estimates of how
many people we would need to process the scene; and we decided
on an initial briefing in the morning and to begin the
processing the next day.
Q. Were you aware that bomb technicians from all over the
United States were flying into Oklahoma City that day?
A. Yes, I was.
Patrick Daly - Direct
Q. And were you also aware that members of various Evidence
Response Teams were flying in or driving in from all over the
country that day?
A. Yes, I was aware.
Q. And did you determine how you would use these individuals
to search the crime scene for evidence?
A. Yes. At the time -- many of the people that were with me
at the time were -- had experience with major crime scenes; and
we were deciding that we would divide up the area. It was
important to begin processing the exterior portions of the
surrounding streets because it -- they were vulnerable to, you
know, traffic and people entering. And the immediate area
around the building was certainly secured by the local Oklahoma
City Police Department, so we made plans on dividing up areas
within the surrounding blocks to process.
Q. Did you make assignments that next morning, April 20, 1995?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And you said you were going to divide up the crime-scene
area. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. How did you divide it up?
A. We determined from basically a perimeter that we would
search based on finding out where items had been found that
possibly belonged to the truck involved in the bombing and then
extended the area so that we would have a search area that
Patrick Daly - Direct
would be inclusive of the possibility of finding items relating
to the blast.
Q. Did you divide the area into grids?
A. Yes, we divided it into grids and assigned different
Evidence Response Teams and bomb technicians to the various
grids.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, if I could show the
witness Government's Exhibit 727 and 728. I can hand up -- the
large versions are up behind the marshal or next to the
marshal.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Daly, take a look at these two exhibits.
If you could refer to them -- without showing them to
the jury yet, if you could refer to them by exhibit number.
A. Okay. Exhibit No. 728 is a map, a grid map, of the area
surrounding the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. It's
entitled "Central Business District."
Q. Was that the grid map that you used on April 20, 1995, to
determine who would search which areas?
A. Yes. It was a portion of the grid map. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we offer Government's
Exhibit 727.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, may I look at it?
THE COURT: Yes.
Patrick Daly - Direct
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 727 is received. Do you want to display
it?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Daly, if you could turn around and hand it to the
marshal, and he'll put it up on the easel.
You should have a pen in front of you. Do you see the
little laser pen right there in front of you?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: And if the marshal could turn it a
little bit. There you go.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Could you explain to the jury how you used this grid map to
make team assignments?
A. May I stand?
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Here, this black area --
THE COURT: Do you want to move, Mr. Nigh?
Just a moment. Let defense counsel move over.
MR. NIGH: Now I can see, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: The black area would represent the
Murrah Federal Building. The surrounding areas were the
Patrick Daly - Direct
surrounding areas that we searched -- we divided them up
basically into grids for each search team.
Initially, my grid area was Grid No. 1, which would be
the area immediately to the northwest of the Murrah Federal
Building. Grid No. 2 was down to the southwest. 3 would be to
the northeast. 4 would be to the southeast, and 5 would be the
Murrah Building itself.
And we expanded, as we needed to expand, the search
area, if we found other articles. But this was the initial
plan to search the Murrah Building and the surrounding area.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Daly, you said you were responsible for Grid No. 1.
Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Were you assigned to be the team leader for Team No. 1?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Could you explain to the jury where you all started the
search and how you moved in toward the building?
A. The immediate area surrounding the building was secured
that evening of the bombing, April 19, by the Oklahoma City
police and other local and state law enforcement. So our main
concern the next day, the 20th, was to begin a search of the
surrounding areas that really had no security as far as the
local law enforcement and had the public possible access to.
So my team, April 20, began a search of the streets
Patrick Daly - Direct
surrounding between 5th and 9th and Harvey out to Shantrel
(sic), I believe the street is, and went -- we had
approximately 25 people on my team.
We went block to block, alley to alley, sidewalk to
sidewalk, looking for any evidence of debris that was foreign
to that immediate area.
If there was penetration, say, through a broken window
or through the side of a building by fragments, we would search
that building; if it was occupied, with permission. If it was
abandoned, we would look and see if we could get access or find
the owner.
We also did the roofs of all these buildings.
Fortunately, I had some firemen who weren't afraid of heights
like I am; and we had aerial trucks and put them up on the
roofs, and they searched the roof for any bomb-related items,
bomb-fragment items.
We finished this area, I believe, on the 20th and
continued searching towards the Murrah Building on 5th.
Q. You can take your seat.
A. Thank you.
Q. Do you recall approximately how large the search area that
your team and other teams were assigned to search?
A. I believe it was approximately a mile and a half in length
and maybe a mile and a quarter in width.
Q. Was this the largest outdoor crime scene you had ever been
Patrick Daly - Direct
at or investigated?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you look at Government's Exhibit 728. What is that?
A. This is an aerial photograph of the Murrah Building after
the blast, post-blast, and the surrounding blocks.
MS. WILKINSON: Government offers 728.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. And could you put that up on the easel, Mr. Daly.
Just briefly, does this depict a portion of the area
that you and your team searched?
A. Yes, ma'am. Looking again at the Murrah Building, we
basically were searching Grid 1, which encompassed the area to
the northwest, up several blocks to 9th, again several blocks
off this photograph to Shantrel (sic).
Q. Did you search each and every street, alley, rooftop, and
surrounding building in your area?
A. Yes, we did. We went systematically, block by block, doing
the east-west blocks, doing the north-south blocks, parking
lots, rooftops, sidewalks, alleys, interior of buildings that
had been penetrated again by fragments, rooftops. This is the
Regency apartment right here. It's about a 24-story building.
We searched that rooftop, etc.
Q. You told us that you began -- that you made assignments on
Patrick Daly - Direct
April 20, the night of April 20. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you and your team actually begin searching for evidence
on April 20?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Did you give your team members any instructions on how to
conduct the search before you began?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you tell them to do?
A. I made sure that the people had protective clothing; that
they had gloves; that we had bags and other articles to pick up
and package the evidence with. I made assignments for a
photographer, a sketch artist, an evidence-log recorder that
would record the items of evidence that we would collect; and
then I gave them -- many of whom had experience in post-blast
bombing crime scenes. But for those who didn't, I gave them a
summary of what to look for as far as possible fragments or --
of the vehicle itself or possible bomb-type components.
Q. Did you maintain a sign-in sheet each day to determine who
was on your team and who was participating in the search?
A. Yes. Each day, I required that everyone who was on my team
sign their name and initials so that I would know at the end of
the day how many people, since we had 25 or more people each
day.
Q. You mentioned that you assigned someone or had someone be a
Patrick Daly - Direct
sketch artist for the team. Is that right?
A. Yes, I did. For the first few days while we were
processing the surrounding areas, I had a sketch artist that
would on a grid-type sketch try to incorporate approximate
placements of articles that we collected.
Q. Now, how many other teams searched the crime scene at the
Murrah Building beginning on April 20?
A. I think at the beginning there were approximately five or
six teams. Eventually, that increased as time went on.
Q. Tell the jury how many people participated in the
crime-scene search.
A. I think there was -- or I know there was about 250
people -- agents; police; federal, local, state law
enforcement -- doing active collection of evidence and search
for evidence.
Q. Now, were all of those 250 people downtown in Oklahoma
City, or were some of them at another site?
A. There was a group of approximately 80 people at an off
site, doing sifting of debris taken from in front of the
building, from the crater at the Murrah Building and -- they
would receive dumptruck loads of debris and earth and sift
through that.
Q. What is the purpose of sifting? Why, as an evidence
recovery person, would you want someone to sift some of the
crime-scene debris?
Patrick Daly - Direct
A. Well, the purpose is to determine if there is any evidence,
be it minute in size, that would necessarily escape our eye as
we're walking; that it would be sifted from the earth and be
recovered through screens, actual different sizes of screens
that would sift the earth or concrete and eventually will get
to a point where we've screened it fairly minutely so that we
could find wire, fusing, part of the bomb itself.
Q. Now, before -- or once someone from your evidence team
recovered a piece of evidence, what were they supposed to do
with it?
A. I required --
Q. What were your procedures?
A. I required or asked that they come to me and show me or
tell me what they found, so we could make a determination
whether or not it was worthy of collection, whether it was
evidence, and that I could make sure that the logging-in
procedure was done properly and correctly.
Q. Did that enable you then to see each piece in place before
it was actually taken into custody by the investigators?
A. For the most part, except for the pieces recovered on some
of the roofs. I didn't go up on the roofs.
Q. And once you determined that the piece of evidence was
worthy of seizure, what was the procedure that was followed?
A. We would either initial it -- or I would initial it for the
most part directly on the piece, or if it was too small to
Patrick Daly - Direct
initial or I didn't feel that the -- it would be appropriate to
initial directly on the piece, we would initial and date the
packaging, assign it an item number, and do a descriptive log
of what we were collecting to include that item number.
Q. Now, if you were looking for portions of the bomb or other
debris that might be of evidentiary value, why would you make a
determination that certain pieces of evidence that one of your
agents or investigators might see is worthy of seizure and
leave other pieces there?
A. I think because of my experience, I had a better
understanding of what was appropriate for collection. For
example, after we knew there was a truck involved and that
inside there may have been wooden paneling or wooden flooring
on the truck, some of the agents were collecting every piece of
broken wood possible. And, for example, I was in the Murrah
Building when this was happening; and I looked up, and the
ceiling was made of wood, the same wood that the evidence
people were collecting off of the floor; so I made that
determination that it belonged to the ceiling, as opposed to
possibly belonging to the truck.
Q. Despite making these determinations, did you and the other
agents at the crime scene recover thousands and thousands and
thousands of pounds of debris?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how much debris was collected during this
Patrick Daly - Direct
crime-scene investigation?
A. I wouldn't know an exact figure. I would say maybe over
7 tons.
Q. Now, let's turn to your actual evidence collection on
April 20, 1995, and I want to show you several pieces of
evidence.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, may I approach?
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Could Agent Daly step down --
THE COURT: Sure.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. I want to start here with Government's Exhibit 713. Do you
recognize this piece?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Could you keep your voice up, please, because you're not
near the microphone.
A. I'm sorry.
Q. What is that piece?
A. This appears to be a gear from a truck. And we -- I found
this on --
Q. Do you want to come around here so the jury can hear.
A. It's in the middle right here. It appears to be a piece
from a gear from a truck. And this was found on the 400 block
of N.W. 5th, about two blocks from the Murrah Federal Building
to the west. It was in the middle of the block just east of a
Patrick Daly - Direct
body shop, Fred's Body Shop. It knocked --
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, if I may, may we clarify about
whether the witness is testifying about personal knowledge?
MS. WILKINSON: I can do that.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Daly, did you personally recover Exhibit 713 as
you're seeing it?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, at this time we'd offer
713.
MR. NIGH: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. 713 is in.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, could you show on the model -- be careful of this
piece right here -- where you recovered Government's Exhibit
713?
THE COURT: Give him the pointer.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, may I step closer?
THE COURT: Sure. We'll get the pointer, and it may
help.
THE WITNESS: This street here is N.W. 5th, and
this -- this street here is N.W. 5th, and this is the 400
block.
This truck part was found approximately right here.
Patrick Daly - Direct
Fred's Body Shop was here. And there was a chain-link fence
that ran along it, and it knocked down a length of that fence;
and we recovered it from there.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Daly, you're going to need to swing out a little bit
so all the jurors can see you.
THE COURT: Excuse me. Members of the jury, if you
want to stand so you can see better, feel free to do that.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Daly, where you're pointing right now, where you
recovered Government's Exhibit 713, is there a small yellow dot
and a fiber optics to indicate the recovery of that piece?
A. I see the yellow dot. I don't think there is a fiber
optics. There possibly is.
Q. Now, can you tell the jury how heavy approximately
Government's Exhibit 713 is?
A. I'd say about 50 pounds.
Q. Now, did you continue to search for evidence on April 21,
the next day?
A. Yes.
Q. And if you could go up and look at Government's Exhibit
714. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How do you recognize it?
A. I recall seeing this and lifting it into a pickup truck
Patrick Daly - Direct
afterwards. It was in the middle of a block of the 300 block
of N.W. 5th on the south side of the street by the sidewalk, by
the Regency apartments, the large apartment building on the
model.
Q. And does this appear to be a tire rim?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. WILKINSON: Government offers 714.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Again, if you could indicate on the model for the jury
where you found Government's Exhibit 714.
A. Approximately right here between Harvey Street and Hudson
Street on N.W. 5th on the south side of the street by the
sidewalk.
Q. Agent Daly, why don't you lift up this model version of the
Regency Towers. You can just hand it to me for a moment. And
if you could show the jury again where you recovered that wheel
rim.
A. Right here on the sidewalk on the south side, on the 300
block of N.W. 5th.
Q. In that position, is there a small yellow dot and a fiber
optics indicating your recovery position?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. Approximately how far is that from the front entrance of
Patrick Daly - Direct
the Murrah Building?
A. I'd say approximately one block, about 500 feet.
Q. And not to insult your manhood, but were you able to lift
that tire rim, Government's Exhibit 714, by yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you want to show the jury?
A. At another time.
Q. Let me put that back.
Agent Daly, I need to ask you two questions for the
record that I forgot. Government's Exhibit 713, the piece in
the middle there that you've discussed: Is that also known as
Q1019?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And Government's Exhibit 714, the rear wheel rim: Do you
know the Q number for that exhibit?
A. I believe it's 980.
Q. Okay. Now, did you also find Government's Exhibit 715,
which I believe is -- it's the one back here.
Is that Government's Exhibit 715?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And do you recognize this piece?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you also recover this piece on April 21, 1995?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And could you tell the jury what this is or what you
Patrick Daly - Direct
believe it is?
A. What I believe it is is a piece of the truck frame rail
that was severely damaged, as you can see, by the explosive
blast and was thrown from the Murrah Building to the site where
I recovered it.
Q. And does this piece appear to be bent?
A. It's bent and torn and has evidence that it was subjected
to a severe --
MR. NIGH: I'm going to object. I believe this is
beyond this witness' area of expertise.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Again, can you lift this piece?
A. Not by myself.
Q. Do you have any idea how heavy it is?
A. It took three of us to load it into a pickup truck.
Q. And this is marked Government's Exhibit 715. Is that
right?
A. 715, yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Government moves in 715, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received, 715.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. If you could go to the model and show the jury where you
found this piece of frame rail.
Patrick Daly - Direct
A. Should I remove the Regency again?
Q. Yes, please.
A. This was found in the parking lot between the Post Office
and the Regency on the 300 block of N.W. 5th, and again, about
a block from the Murrah Building's entrance.
Q. Now, if you could go up to the photographs there on the
wall and look at that one that's closest to you, right up
there, straight ahead. Should be Government's Exhibit 717. Do
you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that a photograph of Government's Exhibit 715?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we offer Government's
Exhibit 717.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 717 is received.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Daly, remove those other two charts, would you?
MS. WILKINSON: Marshal, could you put those to the
other side, please, because we're going to be using the rest of
those.
Thank you.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Agent Daly, tell the jury what they see in Government's
Exhibit 717.
Patrick Daly - Direct
A. You see Exhibit 715, which is on the floor there, as we
found it in the parking lot between the Post Office and the
Regency apartments.
We then -- I initialed it, and we carried it to a
pickup truck for collection.
Q. Is Government's Exhibit 715 that piece of frame rail also
known as Q1005?
A. Yes, it is.
THE COURT: I think we'll break for lunch at this
point in between these heavy liftings.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
THE COURT: So we'll have you back in about an hour
and a half. You can step out.
Members of the jury, we'll --
MS. WILKINSON: Agent Daly, you can step out. Just
leave that.
THE COURT: Members of the jury, we'll take our usual
recess. During this time, of course, you can talk about
anything except the case. I ask you, of course, to again
withhold any discussion about anything that you have seen or
heard or expect to see and hear in the course of this trial,
remembering that it isn't until it's given to you for decision
that you should have any such discussions. And of course,
avoid anything outside of our evidence that could possibly
influence you in making the decisions that you will have to
make.
We're going to recess till 1:35. You're excused.
(Jury out at 12:04 p.m.)
THE COURT: We have these items sitting out in front
of the jury, but I take it you've seen these before and have
had an opportunity to look at them.
MR. NIGH: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You have no objection to how we're
proceeding, do you?
MR. NIGH: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Good.
MR. NIGH: I don't know -- I think all the -- most of
the items on the table have already been identified and the
bumper. I don't know that they need to stay here once they've
been used.
THE COURT: Well, I don't want to take -- have the
disruption of moving them in and out.
MR. NIGH: I was suggesting maybe they could be moved
over the lunch hour, if the Government is done with that item.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we're not done with that;
but once we are, we'll put it down again and cover it. We
won't have the pieces exposed for any length of time.
THE COURT: Okay. Thanks.
We'll be in recess. 1:35.
(Recess at 12:05 p.m.)
INDEX
Item Page
WITNESSES
Charles Edwards
Recross-examination Continued by Mr. Nigh 8788
Gary Witt
Direct Examination by Mr. Hartzler
Cross-examination by Mr. Jones
Floyd Zimms
Direct Examination by Mr. Mackey
Cross-examination by Mr. Jones
Mary Jasnowski
Direct Examination by Mr. Ryan
Cross-examination by Mr. Jones
Jerry Tucker
Direct Examination by Mr. Mackey
Cross-examination by Mr. Jones
Redirect Examination by Mr. Mackey
Richard Nichols
Direct Examination by Mr. Mackey
Regina Bonny
Direct Examination by Ms. Behenna
Cross-examination by Mr. Jones
Philip Long
Direct Examination by Ms. Behenna
WITNESSES (continued)
Elias Lopez
Direct Examination by Ms. Behenna
Patrick Daly
Direct Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS
Exhibit Offered Received Refused Reserved Withdrawn
148A 8813 8814
148 & 148B 8815 8815
250 8808 8808
250A 8808 8809
631 & 632 8829 8829
713 8890 8890
714 8892 8892
715 8894 8894
717 8895 8895
727 8880 8881
728 8884 8884
959 8829 8829
1082 8851 8851
1089 8867 8867
1090 8868 8868
1091 8869 8869
* * * * *
REPORTERS' CERTIFICATE
We certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from
the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. Dated
at Denver, Colorado, this 14th day of May, 1997.
_______________________________
Paul Zuckerman
_______________________________
Kara Spitler