OKC Bombing Trial Transcript - 05/08/1997 20:06 CDT/CST
05/08/1997
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH,
Defendant.
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REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury - Volume 86)
컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴�
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 1:25 p.m., on the 8th day of May, 1997,
in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver, Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK M. RYAN, United States Attorney for the
Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400,
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
JOSEPH H. HARTZLER, LARRY A. MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON,
SCOTT MENDELOFF, AITAN GOELMAN, and VICKI BEHENNA, Special
Attorneys to the U.S. Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street,
Suite 1200, Denver, Colorado, 80294, appearing for the
plaintiff.
STEPHEN JONES, ROBERT NIGH, JR., and AMBER McLAUGHLIN,
Attorneys at Law, Jones, Wyatt & Roberts, 999 18th Street,
Suite 2460, Denver, Colorado, 80202; and CHERYL A. RAMSEY,
Attorney at Law, Szlichta and Ramsey, 8 Main Place, Post Office
Box 1206, Stillwater, Oklahoma, 74076, appearing for Defendant
McVeigh.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(Reconvened at 1:26 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
Are we going to go to the Manning deposition?
MR. RYAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: For purposes of our record, I have the
original transcript that was lodged by the court reporter who
took this. I will suggest that we not require the court
reporter in the courtroom to take the audio off of the tape,
that we use the official transcript, but then for purposes of
the -- of giving copies to the people who have been ordering
copies, we could simply have this, take out the
cross-examination that we're going to exclude, and make a copy
available.
MR. RYAN: That's agreeable, yes, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: It is, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. That's the way we'll do it.
MR. RYAN: For the record, we should, I believe at
this time, offer the video deposition or the transcript of the
deposition in evidence at this time.
THE COURT: Yeah. Well, I think we'll do it both
ways. The videotape itself has been marked as an exhibit or --
we don't need it marked as an exhibit. It can just be the
videotape of the deposition of November 7, 1996.
MR. RYAN: Okay. Your Honor, that's fine.
THE COURT: And then we'll use the original transcript
as the court record, and a copy can be made deleting the
cross-examination -- was it Mr. Tigar who did it?
MR. RYAN: It was Mr. Woods, your Honor. And
actually, talking to Mr. Nigh a little further since we
addressed the Court on this subject, we are going to delete
everything after page 79. Prior to that, we have Mr. Mackey's
direct, Mr. Nigh's cross, Mr. Mackey's redirect, and Mr. Nigh's
recross. And then we have Woods, Mackey, Woods. We're going
to delete the Woods, Mackey, Woods, if that makes sense.
THE COURT: So what makes sense to me is nothing after
page 79.
MR. RYAN: Exactly.
THE COURT: Okay. Well, we'll get that done.
MR. RYAN: Okay. Thank you, your Honor.
With the Court's permission, I'm just going to stay
here at the podium in a chair. Mr. Paul Johns is going to
assist me with the video, and we'll present the exhibits --
THE COURT: I'll explain to the jury what -- why this
is a video. This is a health -- the health of the witness;
right?
MR. RYAN: Yes.
MR. NIGH: That is also explained in the context of
the testimony during the deposition, your Honor.
I would also ask that the Court inform the jury that
I've agreed to withdraw the objection --
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. NIGH: -- as to leading questions.
THE COURT: Yes. I'll -- or whatever objections are
in here, they are withdrawn, as I understand it.
MR. NIGH: Except the one that we made by motion as to
the whole thing.
THE COURT: Yes. Of course. Okay. Bring in the
jury.
(Jury in at 1:29 p.m.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, we delayed resuming
for a few minutes because we are setting up the videotape
testimony of the next witness. Under the rules that govern us
in criminal cases, there is provision for the taking of
testimony before the trial in the unusual situation where a
witness is unable to come to the courtroom and testify for any
reason. In this case, Mr. Thomas Manning is the next witness.
Mr. Manning has a health condition that prevents him from
traveling here and testifying. And accordingly, his testimony
was taken earlier, in November 7 of 1996. And it was taken
with the attorneys for both sides there to ask the questions,
and he was under oath and gave answers under oath, everything
pretty much the same except you weren't there and I wasn't
there.
So -- and the fact that a judge wasn't there means
that there are some objections that were raised by counsel in
the course of the taking of this testimony and nobody there to
rule on them. So the objections are in here, but these
objections which were raised by Mr. Nigh in the course of this
videotape have been withdrawn, so they are no longer objected
to. We didn't go back and edit the tape, however. Therefore,
you will hear objections raised, but you just ignore that part.
And of course, what the rule also says is that -- and
this is why we do it on videotape, so you get a chance to see
what the person looks like and the manner in which the person
answers the questions. So you must consider the testimony
taking -- taken by this procedure, insofar as it is possible to
do so, in exactly the same way as you consider the testimony of
all other witnesses who come here and testify at the trial.
So with that, we have the videotape of the testimony
of Thomas Manning ready to play.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
(Videotape deposition of Thomas Manning played.)
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, Exhibits 2 through 9 of the
Manning deposition referred to by Mr. Manning have been marked
for purposes of this trial as Exhibits 273B through 273I, and
the Government would offer these at this time.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. NIGH: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Then 273B through --
MR. RYAN: 273I.
THE COURT: I, thank you. Received.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would also -- the photograph
that Mr. Manning was speaking of regarding his store and the
surrounding buildings was Manning Deposition Exhibit 11, and
that has been re-marked for purposes of this trial as Exhibit
273K; and we would offer that at this time, as well.
MR. NIGH: I'm sorry.
MR. RYAN: 273K.
THE COURT: 27 --
MR. NIGH: Did he identify that? If I may inquire --
MR. RYAN: Yes. In the deposition.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 273K is also received.
MR. RYAN: Could we take a moment right now, your
Honor, and briefly publish these exhibits?
THE COURT: Yes. Yes.
MR. RYAN: This is 273B, 273C, 273D, 273E, 273F, 273G,
273H, and 273I. Next is 273K, which, again, is the -- what the
witness described as the Firestone building and the surrounding
buildings to that store. If I might, your Honor, I would point
out to the jury where the Firestone store is.
Where my finger is right here. Thank you.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Videotape deposition of Thomas Manning played.)
MR. RYAN: Government Exhibit No. 12 to the Manning
deposition, your Honor, has been re-marked for purposes of this
trial as Government Exhibit 273L. We would offer this exhibit
at this time.
MR. NIGH: I'd object on the grounds of relevance and
402, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled. 273L is received.
MR. RYAN: We're displaying to the jury the name of
the defendant on this particular exhibit, this credit
application, 1989, and the signature and date at the bottom of
this 1989 credit application.
(Videotape deposition of Thomas Manning played.)
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, what has been referred to in
this deposition as Manning Exhibit 13 is being re-marked for
purposes of this proceeding as Government's Exhibit 273M, and
we would offer it at this time.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 373M (sic) is received and may be
published.
MR. RYAN: What we're displaying now is what is listed
as the name, address and the city on the exhibit.
And what we are displaying now is the name of the
store on the exhibit form.
What we are displaying now is the time in portion of
the exhibit. And we'll -- there's not a whole lot of other
information on the exhibit. We'll display the entire document
at this time.
(Videotape deposition of Thomas Manning played.)
MR. RYAN: May I have just a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, Exhibit 14 that he referred to
has already been admitted as Government's Exhibit 269. Exhibit
15 Mr. Manning referred to has already been admitted as Exhibit
270. And Exhibit 16 that Mr. Manning referred to has already
been admitted as Government's Exhibit 268. Exhibit No. 17 that
Mr. Manning referred to, I believe has not been admitted and we
re-marked that for admission as Government's 273Q. And we
would offer Exhibits -- we would offer 273Q at this time.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, actually, I think 273Q was
previously admitted under a different number. I believe that
it's 270, which has not yet been admitted, but I don't have any
objection.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. RYAN: Let me take a moment and get this
straightened out, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. RYAN: Let me try this again, your Honor. Manning
Exhibits 14, 16, and 17 have been previously admitted. And
Manning Exhibit 15 is the one, I believe, that has not been
admitted, and we have marked that as Government's Exhibit
273-O -- 270-O, rather. We would offer it at this time. I'll
withdraw what I said earlier.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 273-O is received.
MR. RYAN: And may I publish those at this time, your
Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. RYAN: The jury is looking at Government Exhibit
273N --
THE COURT: Well, not now, it isn't.
MR. RYAN: You're right, your Honor. I've been
corrected.
THE COURT: Why don't we go back to the exhibits
already received.
MR. RYAN: Let's do it a different way. Thank you,
your Honor. Government's Exhibit 268 was one of the exhibits
referred to by Mr. Manning just now. Government Exhibit 269 is
another one of the exhibits Mr. Manning referred to.
Government Exhibit 270 is one of the exhibits Mr. Manning
referred to.
Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you want to show 273-O?
MR. RYAN: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. RYAN: Thank you.
THE COURT: Won't hurt my feelings any.
MR. RYAN: I didn't think it would. We have enough
pictures of that car in evidence, I believe, your Honor. Thank
you.
(Videotape deposition of Thomas Manning played.)
MR. RYAN: Government Exhibit 20 that was referred to
in the Manning deposition, your Honor, has been re-marked as
Government's Exhibit 273T, and we would offer it at this time.
It's a two-page exhibit.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 273T received.
MR. RYAN: May we publish?
THE COURT: You may publish, yes.
MR. RYAN: This is the title to the Pontiac in the
name of Mr. McVeigh. And then the back side of the exhibit,
which has actually now been made a second page, is contained
on -- what we're looking at here, bears the date of April 14,
1995.
(Videotape deposition of Thomas Manning played.)
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, Exhibit No. 18 of the Manning
deposition has been re-marked as Government Exhibit 273R in
this trial, and we would move its admission.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. 273R is received. May be
published.
MR. RYAN: This is the entire document, and we'll try
to zoom in and go down the page.
(Videotape deposition of Thomas Manning played.)
MR. RYAN: Government Exhibit No. 10 of the Manning
deposition has been re-marked as Government Exhibit 273J for
this trial, your Honor, and we would offer it into evidence.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. 273J is received.
Do you want to publish it?
MR. RYAN: Yes, your Honor. Again, if I may, this is
the Firestone store where my finger is, where Mr. Manning
worked.
(Videotape deposition of Thomas Manning played.)
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, Government Exhibit 19 to the
Manning deposition has been re-marked as Government Exhibit
273S, and we would offer this two-page exhibit at this time.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I object to 19. According to
Mr. Manning's testimony, it has false information on the
reverse side of it.
THE COURT: What's the purpose of this?
MR. RYAN: I think the only purpose of this exhibit,
your Honor, is to demonstrate that Mercury had, in fact, been
sold to Mr. Manning. The one he had sold to Mr. McVeigh is
reflected at kind of the bottom part of the second page. It
has a very limited purpose, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, but it could be a problem with
respect to the odometer reading.
MR. NIGH: That's correct, your Honor. And the other
information that appears there, as well.
MR. RYAN: Then of course, the jury heard
Mr. Manning's testimony with respect --
THE COURT: I'm going to exclude the exhibit.
MR. RYAN: All right.
THE COURT: Objection sustained as to 273S.
(Videotape deposition of Thomas Manning played.)
MR. RYAN: That concludes Mr. Manning's deposition.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Well, we're going to take the recess before we resume,
although I would mention, members of the jury, you'll recall at
the beginning of this videotaped deposition, reference was made
to the presence there of attorneys for Mr. Terry Nichols.
Terry Nichols is named in this indictment, of course, as I
think you know; but he, of course, is going to be tried
separately and is not on trial at this time. Therefore, the
examination that was conducted of that witness by counsel for
Mr. Nichols is not being given to you. It's not a part of this
trial.
We'll recess for our usual 20-minute break; and as you
know, please continue to avoid discussion of the case, keep
open minds and avoid anything outside of our evidence.
You're excused, 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 3:14 p.m.)
THE COURT: Okay. We'll recess.
(Recess at 3:15 p.m.)
(Reconvened at 3:34 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
We're ready?
MR. HARTZLER: We are. Thank you.
(Jury in at 3:35 p.m.)
THE COURT: Next witness, please.
MR. HARTZLER: The Government calls Eric McGown.
Mr. Ryan will question him.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand.
(Eric McGown affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Please state your full name for the record and spell
your last name.
THE WITNESS: Eric Mark McGown. McGown is
M-C-G-O-W-N.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan?
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Good afternoon.
A. Hello.
Q. Mr. McGown, where do you live?
A. I live in the Dreamland Motel in Junction City, Kansas.
Q. And how old are you?
A. I'm 19.
Q. What is your date of birth?
A. My date of birth is April 14, 1978.
Q. Tell us about the Dreamland Motel.
Eric McGown - Direct
A. It's a small motel that is owned and operated by my mom and
me, and it's -- it's just right on the edge of Junction City.
Q. And you say you live there?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And your mother lives there?
A. Correct.
Q. What is your mother's name?
A. My mother's name is Lea McGown.
Q. How many units are in the motel?
A. There is 24 units.
Q. And do you and your mother actually physically live on the
grounds of the motel?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. And do you have a sister?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And how old is she?
A. She's 17.
Q. And where does she live?
A. She lives at the motel with us.
Q. So the three of you live there?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, are you in school?
A. Not at the moment.
Q. Have you graduated from high school?
A. Yes, I have. I've graduated last May.
Eric McGown - Direct
Q. In May of 1996?
A. '6. Yes.
Q. And where did you go to high school?
A. I went to high school at Junction City High School.
Q. Now, what do you do besides work in the motel, or is that
a -- pretty much a full-time occupation?
A. That's pretty much full-time right now.
Q. How many hours a week do you work there?
A. It varies. From -- it varies from what needs done.
Whatever needs done, I do. Usually, a few hours of day, I
work.
Q. Are you married?
A. No, I'm not.
Q. Any children?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any special hobbies or interests?
A. Yes. Computers and cars. That's my interests.
Q. And when you say you have an interest in computers, would
you explain for us what you mean?
A. Basically anything about them from -- I do a little bit of
programming to I play around on the computer whenever I have
some spare time.
Q. Is that something that you advocate (sic) to in the future?
A. Yes. I plan on having a career in a computer-related
field.
Eric McGown - Direct
Q. And tell us about your interest in cars, if you would.
A. Basically, learned on my own how to make cars go faster and
I just have a love for cars. I've owned a few older cars and I
love them, so . . .
Q. Do you consider yourself to have a special knowledge with
respect to being able to identify automobiles?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Let's turn, if we could, Mr. McGown, to the
week of April 14 to 17 of 1995.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you recall that week?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And April 14 again is what?
A. It's my birthday.
Q. All right. And do you recall what you were doing at that
time in that period of your life, from April 14 to the 17th of
1995?
A. Generally, yes.
Q. And you were still in high school?
A. Yes.
Q. And you had how much time before you graduated?
A. I had a full year left.
Q. All right. And did you have access to your automobile on
April 14?
A. No, I did not. It was in the shop again.
Eric McGown - Direct
Q. And what was it in the shop for?
A. I think it was for another turbocharger.
Q. And you did not have access to it then on your birthday,
April 14. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Is that one of the things that helps you remember this
particular period of time?
A. That's one of them, yes.
Q. All right. Now, what were you doing besides being a junior
in high school in April of 1995? Were you working then?
A. I was working for my mom and -- just in school and working
for my mom. That was basically it.
Q. Okay. And back at that time at that period, which is now a
little less -- a little more than two years ago, what kind of
work did you do for your mom at the motel?
A. Basically the same as I do now, just less of it. I did
general maintenance, took care of the pool, the yard. Anything
that needed to be fixed that she couldn't do, I would do.
Q. All right. Let's start with the first thing that someone
sees when they come to any motel, and that's the front desk.
A. Correct.
Q. What duties did you have with respect to the front desk in
April of '95?
A. I would answer the phone. I would check in clientele. I
would check out. If they dropped a key at the office, I would
Eric McGown - Direct
check for the phone records, see if they had any long distance
phone calls they'd have to pay for and check them out of the
rooms. So basically, I was a desk clerk, too.
Q. Okay. That was one of the things you did, then, was work
at the front desk?
A. Correct.
Q. I think you said a moment ago you did something with
respect to the swimming pool. Tell us what that is.
A. Basically when -- generally in April we start up the
swimming pool, we drain it, repaint, repair any cracks it has
over the winter, we fill it back up.
Q. About how long does it take you to get the pool ready at
the end of every spring?
A. About a week, about a full week.
Q. Did it take you a week to do this in April of '95?
A. Yes.
Q. And was it during this same period of time we've been
talking about?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. All right. Now, we've covered the front desk, we've
covered the swimming pool. What other kinds of things did you
do there at the Dreamland in April of '95?
A. In April -- there is -- just general maintenance, whatever
had to be done, I would do.
Q. Lightbulb went out in a room?
Eric McGown - Direct
A. Yeah, I would have to change it. If a phone doesn't work,
I'd have to go get a phone that does work.
Q. Now, I want to show you an exhibit, a couple of exhibits,
actually. And if you'll look in the little folder there on
your desk, and if you would turn to Exhibits 287 and 283, if
you would.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you see those?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Could you identify Exhibit 283?
A. It's an aerial view of the motel.
Q. Of the Dreamland?
A. Of the Dreamland Motel.
Q. And did the photograph -- does it accurately reflect the
way the motel looked in April of '95?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Now, of course, these cars come and go, but I'm talking
about just the general design of the motel, the location of the
pool and where the highway is.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And is the same true for Exhibit 287?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer Government's
Exhibits 283 and 287.
MR. JONES: No objection.
Eric McGown - Direct
THE COURT: They are received, 283 and 287. You may
publish.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Do you see that on your computer screen?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. All right. Now, tell the jury what we're looking at here.
A. We're looking at an aerial view of the motel from across
I-70.
Q. Okay. Now, where is I-70? You have a little marker there.
Why don't you, if you would, put that marker directly on the
screen below your desk.
A. Okay.
Q. And put an X where the highway is.
A. This would be I-70 right here.
Q. Okay. Now, if you would, draw a line from one end of the
motel to the other on the roof of the motel.
A. Okay. That would be it.
Q. And again, how many rooms are there?
A. There would be 24.
Q. Now, if you would erase that mark.
Now, where do you and your sister and your mother
live?
A. We live in an extension behind the office, right there.
Q. All right. Now, if you'd erase that.
And if you would, then, put an X where the
Eric McGown - Direct
registration desk is located.
A. Registration desk is right in front of our living quarters.
Q. Okay. Now, where in relationship to the front -- to the
front desk is the housing quarters where -- excuse me -- your
mom and your sister and you reside?
A. Directly behind the front desk.
Q. Is there an opening there between the front desk and the
living quarters?
A. Yes. There is three doors between the front office and the
living quarters.
Q. So you can -- you can be back in the back of the house
watching TV or whatever and hear the -- someone come into the
registration area?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, let's look at Exhibit 287. Do you see that all
right?
A. Yes.
Q. What are we looking at here?
A. We're looking at a view of someone standing by the
Interstate taking a picture downward of Rooms 26, 25, our
entryway to a laundry room, and the office.
Q. All right. Now, if you would with this -- with your marker
there, why don't you put an X, if you would, where the check-in
area is?
A. That would be right here.
Eric McGown - Direct
Q. All right. Now, do you have a Room No. 25 there at the
Dreamland Motel?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. Is it displayed here in the Photograph 287?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Would you make a circle around the room, front door of Room
25?
MR. JONES: Your Honor, I'd like to ask that be
printed and marked 287A.
THE COURT: All right. We'll delay a moment to get
that done.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now would you erase the mark, please.
A. Okay.
Q. Now, again, we're turning to -- or we're staying with this
Exhibit No. 287. Where would someone park if they were
residing in Room 25?
A. Directly in front of the room.
Q. On the asphalt paving there in front of that door you
circled?
A. Yes, they would.
Q. Okay. Now, let's talk a little bit about registration at
the motel. I'm sure everyone here has registered at a motel
from time to time; but nonetheless, if you would, take us kind
of through the process by which someone goes through when they
Eric McGown - Direct
come in the front door there at the Dreamland.
A. They come through. We ask them if -- how many people and
how many beds. And we quote them a rate for the room for the
time it will be, and then we hand them a registration card and
a pen. We let them fill out the top half of the card and we --
with their name, address, any pets, type of car and license
plate number; and on the bottom half we would fill out the room
rate, the tax, and the dates that they're there.
Q. So the customer fills out some portion of the card?
A. Correct.
Q. In their own handwriting?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you or your mom fills out the remaining portions
of the card?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. And do you assign a room to them on that particular
registration card?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. You mark it on the card somehow?
A. Yes, on the top-hand corner, there is one corner for the
room number, another corner is for the wake-up call.
Q. And how many times do you think that you have assisted a
guest in filling out this registration card?
A. Thousands.
Q. You're quite familiar with it?
Eric McGown - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to show you an exhibit that has not
been offered in evidence and is marked as Exhibit No. 294. And
you should have a copy of it up there either on your screen or
in the folder there at your desk.
Do you have a copy in front of you there?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. All right. Could you tell us what you're looking at there
with Exhibit 294.
A. All right. You're looking at a registration card for Room
25 for the days of April 14, 15, 16, and 17.
Q. Now, is this a business record of your motel?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And are you one of the custodians of these records?
A. I do some of the maintenance on the records, yes.
Q. And you're quite familiar with this record?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. And it's kept, I gathered from what your testimony was,
like all other registration cards in the normal and ordinary
course of your business of running the motel?
A. Correct.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would move into admission
Government's Exhibit No. 294.
MR. JONES: Well, your Honor, we object. I recognize
that it may be a business record, but I don't believe it's been
Eric McGown - Direct
established that this is the gentleman that handled this
particular registration.
MR. RYAN: We can cover some more. I don't think
that's a prerequisite for the submission, but let me ask a few
more questions.
THE COURT: Yeah. He has to be the custodian of the
records and produce it from those.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Are you familiar with these records?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Are you quite knowledgeable about them?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Did you see this particular record during the time in
question here of April 14 through the 17?
A. Over that time, yes, I did.
Q. And is this record created in the normal course of your
business at the same time a guest registers in the motel?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And who was the particular person, if you can tell by the
handwriting on the document, that checked in this customer?
A. The handwriting is my mother's handwriting.
Q. So you weren't there that day?
A. Not at the moment that he checked in.
Q. But you are familiar with these records?
A. Yes, I am.
Eric McGown - Direct
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would reurge the admission
of this exhibit.
THE COURT: I take it -- excuse me -- the bottom of
the card is your mother's handwriting?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
MR. JONES: I also object on the grounds that the
record is hearsay.
THE COURT: It's hearsay as to the guest registration.
Objection sustained.
It isn't with respect to the bottom there on the
assignment of the room. Are you agreed, Mr. Jones?
MR. JONES: Yes, sir, I do.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, I would remind the Court that
Ms. Jennifer McVeigh has seen this document and has identified
the handwriting on this document --
THE COURT: It's hearsay and it's excluded as to the
top.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, during the week here of April 14 through the 18th, did
you have occasion to see Mr. Timothy McVeigh?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And on how many occasions do you have a specific
recollection of seeing Mr. McVeigh?
A. On three occasions.
Q. Excuse me?
Eric McGown - Direct
A. On three occasions.
Q. Now, if I ask you to point out Mr. McVeigh or the gentleman
that stayed there in the motel during this four-day period,
would you be able to do that?
A. Yes, I could.
Q. Then would you please point to Mr. McVeigh and call him by
name, please.
A. Mr. Timothy McVeigh is on the end of the table.
MR. RYAN: I'd like the record to reflect that the
witness has correctly identified the defendant.
THE COURT: He pointed to him, yes.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, you said -- you indicated to us a moment ago that you
saw Mr. McVeigh -- at least you have a current recollection of
seeing Mr. McVeigh on three occasions.
A. Correct.
Q. During this four-day time period.
Could you please tell us about the first time that you
saw Mr. McVeigh.
A. First time was I was working on the pool doing something,
and I had walked past his car and he had hit a button which
buzzed and had an electric trunk and the trunk popped open, and
I thought that was interesting on a car that was that old; so I
went over and talked to him for a brief conversation, a few
minutes at most.
Eric McGown - Direct
Q. All right. Now, if I could, I'm going to put back on the
ELMO Exhibit -- Government's Exhibit 287. Again, it's already
in evidence.
And Mr. McGown, if you would, take your marker there
and put a -- draw the outline -- well, first of all, before you
do that, is where you saw the car that you're speaking of that
Mr. McVeigh had -- is the position or location of that vehicle
displayed here in Exhibit 287?
A. It could be drawn on. It was parked directly in front of
his room.
Q. All right. And why don't you, if you would, draw the
outline of the vehicle where it was parked at the time you had
this first meeting with Mr. McVeigh.
A. Parked directly in front of his room.
Q. The car was parked directly in front of which room?
A. Room 25.
Q. Now, does your motel have a practice of requiring some form
of identification before a guest registers at the motel?
A. Yes, it does, requires a driver's license or ID.
Q. As far as you know, is that process always complied with by
you and your mother?
A. It's complied with always except for -- I know of only
three people that we do not require that; and they have been
paying for rooms for more than two years now, so we do not
require them to have an ID.
Eric McGown - Direct
Q. But all other guests that are there for a night or a few
nights, you always require them to show some form of personal
identification?
A. Yes. That's our policy.
Q. Now, a moment ago, you said you could identify Mr. McVeigh.
If you would, please tell us what he is wearing in this
courtroom.
A. From what I can see, he's wearing a white long-sleeved
shirt and a white undershirt.
Q. Thank you. All right. Now, going back to this first
conversation that you had in front of Mr. McVeigh's room, tell
us what it was again that you and he discussed and how long you
were with him.
A. It was generally just over the car, and I saw he had -- I
guess we talked whether -- I saw he had Arizona tags. We
talked about -- I guess it was the temperature or the heat, and
I was more interested in the car having an electric trunk more
than anything, because I'm interested in cars. It was just a
brief conversation.
Q. All right. Now, I'd like for you to go through your folder
there that you have in front and turn to the Exhibit 414, if
you would.
A. Okay.
Q. Can you recognize the vehicle shown in this photograph?
A. Yes, I can.
Eric McGown - Direct
Q. And what is it?
A. It's a Mercury Grand Marquis.
Q. And where have you seen this vehicle?
A. I've seen it parked over the weekend of the 14th at the
motel, in front of Room 25.
Q. Is this the vehicle that -- that you had the discussion
with Mr. McVeigh about?
A. Correct.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, this is already in evidence,
but I'll place it here on the easel.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. What is it about this vehicle that causes you to recall it
from April 14 of '95, or 15?
A. Other than it -- the electric trunk, other than it was in
running condition, the primer spots on one side and the gray
spot on the hood where there was some kind of silicone kind of
putty put on.
Q. And you recall that from when you saw the car in front of
Room 25?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, do you know when it was that you saw and had this
conversation with Mr. McVeigh about his electric trunk on this
Mercury Marquis?
A. I do not know, sir.
Q. You don't know whether it was Friday, the 14th, or
Eric McGown - Direct
Saturday, the 15th?
A. I do not know.
Q. Can't help us with that.
A. I can't remember.
Q. All right. When was the next time that you saw
Mr. McVeigh?
A. The next time I saw Mr. McVeigh was when he was backing up
a Ryder truck next to our pool.
Q. Where were you when you saw Mr. McVeigh backing up a Ryder
truck next to the swimming pool?
A. I was probably inside the building.
Q. Do you have a recollection of where you were?
A. No, I do not. I have a recollection of my mom telling me
to go and tell him he can't park there because the person
having Room 34 is a long-time resident and gets upset when
someone parks back there.
Q. All right. Now, I'm going to put Exhibit 283 back on the
ELMO for you.
A. Okay.
Q. And if you would, take your marker --
A. Okay.
Q. -- and show us what you saw the truck doing and where the
truck parked prior to your mother giving you some instruction.
A. Okay. Truck was backing up slowly next to the pool and
stopped with the rear of it facing the creek that we have right
Eric McGown - Direct
there.
MR. JONES: Your Honor, I'd move to print this.
THE COURT: All right. Again, if we can wait a moment
to get that done.
MR. RYAN: Certainly.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: It's done.
THE COURT: Done? Okay.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. So if I understand then correctly, has the truck stopped
moving at the time that you went out there to talk to
Mr. McVeigh?
A. By the time I got to the truck, he had stopped and was
starting to get out of the truck.
Q. All right. Now, where is the front of the truck facing?
A. The front. Truck is facing our sign or the front office.
Q. So it's facing towards the front of the motel or the office
of the motel?
A. Correct.
Q. And the back is towards -- looks like some grass and trees
and whatnot there to the left of the photograph?
A. Correct.
Q. All right. Tell us what you did there when -- after your
mom told you to go out there and tell him to move the truck.
A. I went out to the truck. He was starting to get out of the
truck, and I asked him if he could move the truck up next to
Eric McGown - Direct
the sign because the person in 34 was kind of grouchy, so --
Q. What did he say?
A. He was really polite about it. He said yes and went and
moved it right away.
Q. All right. And where did he move it to?
A. He moved it to -- on the sign -- parked next to the sign on
the other side that's not connected.
Can I mark it? It would be easier for me to mark it.
Q. Tell you what: Let's use another exhibit here.
A. Okay.
Q. And see if this won't help you more.
I'll tell you what: Before we do that, why don't you
use this photograph here, Government's Exhibit 283, and mark on
it in a general way the movement of the vehicle towards
ultimately where you had him park the Ryder truck.
A. Okay. He drove it from where it was parked, at a normal
pace, and he parked right there to the side of the sign.
Q. Okay. Now, if you'll erase that mark.
Does this photograph, 287, help you demonstrate where
it was you parked -- or excuse me -- Mr. McVeigh parked the
Ryder truck?
A. Somewhat, yes.
Q. Would you draw on the -- on this photograph where the
vehicle was then parked.
A. The vehicle was parked right up next to our sign with two
Eric McGown - Direct
tires in the dirt, rear tires, and two tires on the pavement.
MR. JONES: Your Honor, I ask to print this.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, did you walk around the Ryder truck?
A. Not to my knowledge, no.
Q. Did you see only one side of the Ryder truck?
A. Yes. The side facing the office. That's the only side I
saw.
Q. What side, the passenger or the driver's side, of the truck
did you see?
A. The driver's side.
Q. Now, if you would, describe the truck that you saw and that
Mr. McVeigh was in.
A. It was a Ryder truck, one medium-sized. It wasn't one of
the newest models.
It was not so rounded. It had a different compartment
for the one cab, and it had the trailer portion.
Q. Now, did you actually see Mr. McVeigh in the car driving?
A. In the Ryder truck?
Q. Excuse me. Pardon me. Of course. In the Ryder truck.
A. Yes.
Q. You saw him behind the wheel?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you see during this occasion that you saw him in
Eric McGown - Direct
the Ryder truck, the time that you asked him to move it from
the swimming pool area -- did you see this Mercury Marquis that
you have -- had earlier discussed with Mr. McVeigh?
A. No. Once I saw the Ryder truck, I never saw that Marquis
again.
Q. Never saw it again at the Dreamland Motel?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay.
MR. RYAN: If you will turn this off from the jury's
standpoint, please.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Can you see what I placed before you, Exhibit 306A? Do you
have that on your screen?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Now, have you seen this particular exhibit before?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. When did you see it?
A. During some kind of questioning more than a year ago.
Q. All right. And were you asked to look at this series of
Ryder trucks and see if you could identify the size and type of
the Ryder truck that you had seen Mr. McVeigh in?
A. Yes, I was asked.
Q. And did you do that?
A. I identified the third one down.
Q. All right.
Eric McGown - Direct
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, I would move into admission
Exhibit 306A.
MR. JONES: No objection.
THE COURT: 306A received.
MR. RYAN: May I publish, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, if you would, Mr. McGown, would you please circle the
vehicle that most closely resembles the size and type of Ryder
truck that you recall seeing Mr. McVeigh in.
MR. RYAN: And we would like a copy of this to be
marked as 306B, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, what day between this time frame of April 14 to the
17th was it that you saw Mr. McVeigh parking this Ryder truck
next to the swimming pool?
A. I do not know.
Q. Now, Mr. McGown, you have given a jillion interviews,
haven't you?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. You've talked to the FBI?
A. Correct.
Q. You've talked to defense investigators?
A. Think so.
Eric McGown - Direct
Q. You've been hounded by the media, haven't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever said before that you thought the vehicle,
this Ryder truck, was there on Sunday, the 16th?
A. I have said I thought it may have been, but I was not -- I
was never sure it was there.
Q. Are you sure today?
A. No, I'm not.
Q. All right. Let's go to the third time that you saw
Mr. McVeigh.
A. Okay.
Q. And if you would, please tell the Court and jury when it
was and under what circumstances that you saw Mr. McVeigh the
third time.
A. The third time was at sometime after he had parked the
Ryder truck by the sign. The rear of the Ryder truck was
facing the sign, and he had -- was trying to close the rear
tailgate of the Ryder truck but he was having trouble closing
it. He was leaning on it and trying to close it shut instead
of lifting it up and letting it slam shut.
Q. And then after he -- did he finally get it shut?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did you ever see any moving boxes?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you ever see any luggage?
Eric McGown - Direct
A. No.
Q. Did you ever see any sign that anyone was moving, other
than the fact that a Ryder truck was on the premises?
A. Other than the Ryder truck, no.
Q. Now, what did you see after Mr. McVeigh got the back end,
rear end, of the Ryder truck closed?
A. After he got it closed, that's all I -- I turned around and
I was in the front office and I went to the back to the living
quarters.
Q. Did you see him secure the vehicle in any way?
A. I did not see that -- him secure it.
Q. Now, tell us about what happens or what the system is in
your motel with respect to people making telephone calls from
their room.
A. Whenever someone picks up the phone and dials numbers, our
computer system prints out the numbers they have dialed,
whether it's local or long distance. It prints immediate
printout when they hang up, and it saves the records in the
computer. We save it and print out approximately -- we print
out daily reports and we print out monthly reports and all the
phone calls that all the rooms have made.
Q. And if you would turn in the folder you have there and turn
to Exhibit 295.
A. Okay.
Q. And would you please identify for us what that exhibit
Eric McGown - Direct
consists of?
A. This is a chronological report for almost the month of
April that we printed out.
Q. What's the earliest date displayed by this record?
A. The report period, it says from April 2, '95, to April 25,
'95.
Q. Now, this is a business record of the Dreamland Motel?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. When does the internal computer regarding time and
telephone calls record the making of a telephone call from
within the room?
A. It saves it as soon as the person hangs up. It saves it
into memory. The call is started when he picks up the
telephone.
Q. And are you the custodian of the telephone records for the
Dreamland?
A. One of them, yes.
Q. And do these -- does Exhibit No. 295 record the calls of
Room 25 during the time that Mr. McVeigh stayed there from
April 14th to the 18th?
A. Yes, they do.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we'd move into admission
Exhibit No. 295.
MR. JONES: All of it?
MR. RYAN: Well, I'm just going to talk about the ones
Eric McGown - Direct
that have the calls to Room 25. I mean -- I don't know if you
want to delete some of the pages. We certainly don't have any
objection.
MR. JONES: I think all of the pages should be
introduced -- I have no objection -- for that period of time.
THE COURT: All right. 295 is received.
And while we're talking exhibits, I have checked; and
Exhibit 294, the top half, was identified by Jennifer McVeigh
as being the handwriting of Timothy McVeigh. So I'll receive
the top half of that exhibit based on that testimony. The
bottom half of the exhibit based on the business records
exception.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: So 294 is received as well.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. We were talking about the telephone records, 295, but I
think what we'll do now -- we'll come back to that in a minute.
A. Okay.
Q. Let's go back to the -- let's go back to Exhibit 294, the
registration.
A. Okay.
Q. You have a copy of it there at your -- in your folder.
Okay. Why don't you, if you would, Mr. McGown, just
take us from the top down the front page here of this exhibit.
A. The first -- the very top is which room they're putting in,
Eric McGown - Direct
in this case Room 25, and whether they want a wake-up call or
not. This indicates that he didn't want a wake-up call. And
that -- those two things, we usually fill in, the desk clerk.
Then the name filled in. The street, the city, the
state, the car license, the state of the license, the make of
the car, the number of people and the pets are all filled in by
the customer.
Q. I'll tell you what, here. Let's do this: Tell me what in
this exhibit, 294, you recognize as your mom's -- your mother's
handwriting.
And if you would, just take your pen there and circle
what is her writing and what is not. Only circle what is hers.
A. This is her writing right here.
The room number is hers and that he didn't want a
wake-up call is hers.
Q. So what did -- if you would, then, read the portion there
that the guest would have recorded on this registration card.
A. His name -- would be Tim McVeigh. The street address that
he put down would be 3616 Van Dyke. The city was Decker. The
state was Michigan. His car license plate was LZ6 -- I
can't --
Q. If you're not sure, don't guess. Tell us what you're sure
of.
A. -- 034. The state was Arizona. The make was Mercury.
Number of people was one, and the pets was no. No pets.
Eric McGown - Direct
Q. All right. Now, he recorded -- or the guest here,
Mr. McVeigh, recorded there was only one person staying in the
room.
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you ever at any time during these occasions that you've
told us about seeing Mr. McVeigh, see him with anyone else?
A. I've never seen him with anybody else.
Q. When you saw this Ryder truck, was anybody else in the
Ryder truck?
A. No, it was just him.
Q. Did you ever see anyone around the Ryder truck?
A. Not with him.
Q. Did you ever see anyone else around the Mercury Marquis?
A. Not with him.
Q. All right. Now, let's go back to the areas that you have
circled here, and starting at the top tell us the portion that
your mother wrote, if you would. Read that into the record.
A. At the top part under the box that says "Room," she put
in -- she put "25" down for stating Room 25. And on the other
side, on the box that says wake-up, she put a slash into the
box. That means no wake-up call.
Q. What about then after the information that Mr. McVeigh
wrote?
A. He checked in on Friday, so she -- and he paid for the four
days, so she circled both Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday.
Eric McGown - Direct
Those were the nights he was staying. It was in April of '95.
The rate he had, $20 a night, so she put down -- 4 times $20
would be $80. Tax is 8.95. Would be 88.95 for the four
nights.
Q. And what are the four nights?
A. That would be April 14, 15, 16 and 17.
Q. And which day of the week is the 14th?
A. 14th is a Friday.
Q. And the 17th?
A. 17th would be the Monday.
Q. Now, did you ever see Mr. McVeigh on the 18th, which is
typically the day that someone would be leaving, if they stayed
there the night of the 17th?
A. No, I did not.
Q. So the only four choices for these three times that you saw
Mr. McVeigh then would be 14th, 15th, 16th, and 17th?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, as to any of these three times that you saw
Mr. McVeigh, can you tell us what days those were?
A. No, I cannot.
Q. Let me go back, if I might, to a -- the conversation that
you had with Mr. McVeigh when you first saw him the first time
there next to the Mercury Marquis. Did you talk to him about
where he was from or where he was going?
A. Yes. I saw his Arizona license plates and I asked
Eric McGown - Direct
something about how hot it was there compared to -- it was kind
of chilly, I guess, in April here. So I said, "Well, you're
from nice and hot, and I bet you wish you were from there"
(sic). And it was just casual conversation.
Q. Did he indicate to you where he was going?
A. He said was from, oh -- I do not know where he was from.
He -- I know he said something, but I'm not sure what he said.
Q. At the time that you saw him there in front of Room 25 with
the Mercury and the Arizona plates, had you seen his car and
his registration card indicating his address?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. Now, if we could, let's turn to the -- to these telephone
records we were talking about earlier. Have you -- you
reviewed these before coming here today, didn't you?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And can you tell us how many telephone calls were made from
Room 25 on either -- this time frame from April 14 through
April 17 of 1995?
A. There was four -- four phone calls placed from his room
during the days that he stayed there.
Q. All right. I'm going to put one of the pages of this
exhibit on the ELMO. We'll try to zoom in here a little bit.
Can you tell us here the first indication of a phone
call involving Room 25?
A. Yes, there is one on April 15 at 9:50 a.m.
Eric McGown - Direct
Q. All right. And would you please circle that.
Now, would you read into the record the time of the
call?
A. The time of the call was at 9:50 a.m.
Q. On what date?
A. On April 15, 1995.
Q. And what number was called?
A. 1(800)793-3377.
Q. All right. Then there is a column, the next column. What
is that for?
A. The destination, whether it's local or which state it's to;
or if it's a free call, it would put the SS.
Q. And SS signifies what?
A. All the phone company told me was that is a non-charged
phone call, so . . .
Q. All right. And then the next column is what?
A. It would be the trunk number, which trunk is used to call
out. We have that disabled -- we have it disabled since
beginning of the phone system.
Q. So we're not going to learn anything from that column.
A. Correct.
Q. The next column tells us what?
A. It's the room number that dialed out.
Q. And what room number are we talking about?
A. Room 25.
Eric McGown - Direct
Q. Now, what was the duration of the call?
A. The duration of the call was 36 seconds.
Q. And was there any charge?
A. No charge.
Q. And why is that?
A. It's a collect call.
Q. It was not charged to the room?
A. It was not charged to the room.
Q. Okay. Now, do you see on further down that page any other
calls from Room 25 on April 15?
A. No, I do not.
MR. RYAN: I'm going to get my reading glasses, if I
might, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Look on down about two-thirds or three-quarters of the way
down the page there, Mr. McGown, if you would. See if you
don't see two calls there involving Room 25.
Excuse me. That's probably the reason you can't see
it -- is I don't have it on the ELMO.
A. Yes, now I see two more calls.
Q. See it okay now?
A. Yes, now I see two calls.
Q. I was wondering.
Okay. Tell us here which one -- what is the second
Eric McGown - Direct
call? You've already told us about the first call. Tell us
about the second call made from Room 25 there on April 15.
A. It was made on April 15 at 1713 military time. It was to
local phone number, 238-8888, and it lasted for a minute 42
seconds.
Q. Military time, 1713, is 5:13 in the afternoon. Is that
right?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. Now, take us to the third call that day, April 15.
A. Okay. The third call was April 15 at 1801 military time,
would be 6:01 standard time. Same number. It was 238-8888.
It was a local call from Room 25. Lasted only 30 seconds.
Q. All right. Now, let's turn to the fourth and final call
from that room while Mr. McVeigh stayed there.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you see it on the screen?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And would you circle what it is? Just the 25 portion so we
can get focussed on it.
A. All right.
Q. I'm sorry. Faked you out there, didn't I?
A. Yes.
Q. Sorry. Okay. Start again.
Now, tell us about that telephone call.
A. It was placed on April 17 at 9:40 a.m. to a 1(800)793-3377.
Eric McGown - Direct
It was placed from Room 25, lasted a minute 36 seconds. It was
free.
Q. So this is the same free 800 number that he had made the
very first call from?
A. Correct.
Q. So he really called two different phone numbers twice.
A. Correct.
Q. While he was at the motel?
A. Yes.
MR. RYAN: May I have just a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Do you have brochures there at the motel regarding local
restaurants for your customers?
A. Yes, we do. We have several local restaurants that come
and put brochures in the front office advertising their
restaurant.
Q. Do you remember the names of any of them?
A. Pizza Palace. We have Pizza Hut. We had Cone's when it
was still there. We had Stacey's. We had several restaurants
and several fast-food places.
Q. Do you have any Chinese delivery places?
A. At certain -- when they bring up photos, yes, we put them
up. We had I think two Chinese places.
Q. Do you remember their names?
Eric McGown - Direct
A. Only the name of one.
Q. What was that?
A. That would be Hunam Palace.
Q. Have you ever eaten there?
A. Not myself.
Q. And I guess you don't know their phone number?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Now, did there ever come a time, Mr. McGown, that you saw
that same 1977 Mercury that you had seen Mr. McVeigh in --
around in front of Room 25?
A. The old Mercury? I saw it again on TV later.
Q. And in what connection?
A. In connection with someone who was arrested, a suspect of
the Oklahoma City bombing.
MR. RYAN: I believe that's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Jones?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Mr. McGown, this motel, the Dreamland Motel in Junction
City, has how many rooms?
A. 24.
Q. And you identified from an exhibit that Mr. Ryan introduced
with you Government's Exhibit No. 283. I'll show it to you
now. Do you have it in front of you, sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Eric McGown - Cross
Q. Now, you showed me where Room 25 would be. Would you just
take that aerial photograph and show the jury where the numbers
start and how they go around?
A. The numbers start at Room 10 back on our L portion back
here.
Q. All right.
A. And they get numbered 10, 11, 12, starts at 14, and it goes
on to 24 right here on this side of the office; and 25 is the
first room on the other side of the office, goes 25 to 34.
Q. All right. So 25 then is the first room west of the
office.
A. Correct.
Q. And which means that it's the first room west of the
residence that you and your mother and your sister Kathleen
have there.
A. Yes.
Q. And then 24 is the first room east of the office.
A. Correct.
Q. And then I take it that 23 is east of it, and so forth.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Room 25: Is it the first door west of the office, or
is there a door between 25 and the office?
A. There is a door between 25 and the office that's the door
to our maid's room.
Q. To the maid's room?
Eric McGown - Cross
A. We have a storage area for the maid's carts and supplies.
Q. I'm sorry. Is that room numbered in any way?
A. No, it is not.
Q. So it's just a door?
A. It's a white screen door in front of another door.
Q. And is it any different from the other rooms other than the
fact that it doesn't have a number?
A. It's a small hallway instead of a room.
Q. All right. But I mean the door is painted the same and
looks the same?
A. No, it is not.
Q. All right. Then tell me how it's different, please.
A. It's -- instead of a wooden door, it's a metal door, plus
it has a white screen door in front of it.
Q. All right. Room 24 and 23 and so forth: Do they all have
the same type of doors as Room 25?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. I noticed when you were telling me about the rooms over
there, you said 10, 11, 12, 14.
A. Yes.
Q. So I take it there is no Room 13.
A. Correct.
Q. And has there ever been a Room 13 since you and your mom
had it?
A. No.
Eric McGown - Cross
Q. All right. Now --
MR. JONES: Could I see the photographs, please.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. You have previously identified Government's Exhibit 295 as
the phone records, the first page of which looks like this.
You remember that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. All right. Do you have a set in front of you, or do you
need it shown on the ELMO?
A. I'd like it shown.
Q. All right. I'll show you what's been marked as page 22 of
Government's Exhibit 295. Can you see that?
A. Could you enlarge it some, please.
Q. Sure.
A. Okay.
Q. Now can you see it?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. Now, I'm just going to use my pencil and ask you, do you
see this -- where I'm pointing?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And that would indicate, would it not, that on April 16, a
call was placed at 2136 to a 238-6560, it looks like, from Room
13. Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Which lasted about a minute?
Eric McGown - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Now, of course, there -- as you pointed out, there is no
Room 13, is there?
A. Correct.
Q. All right. So this is some type of code, isn't it?
A. At this point in time, we were changing from -- our calling
system from dialing 23 to get Room 23 to 13 because people were
getting woke up because the local number to dial out was 238;
and people were dialing 23 and getting connected to Room 23,
and so we changed Room 23 from 23 to 13.
Q. Sure. And that was a system that your mother arranged to
change, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And so when it says Room 13 here, what it really means is
Room 23?
A. Yes.
Q. Because there is no Room 13?
A. Correct.
Q. And you're confident in your own mind as much as anything
that this is a call from Room 23.
A. Correct.
Q. Now, Mr. McGown, on April 16, was there a registered guest
in Room 23?
A. I do not recall.
Q. You have the records, do you not?
Eric McGown - Cross
A. Not in front of me.
Q. Have you looked in the past? You're familiar with this
here, aren't you?
A. With the phone records, but I do not have the records in
front of me as to who was renting each room over that weekend.
Q. Have you previously looked up to see if any guest was
registered in Room 23 on that day?
A. Not in the past two years.
Q. Are you aware that no guest was registered?
A. I'm not aware whether there was or was not.
Q. You had problems at the motel off and on over the years
with phone numbers and being charged to the wrong room and
phone calls charged that were not made, haven't you?
A. We have guests that said that, yes.
Q. Well, you have had more than one guest that said that,
haven't you?
A. We've had guests that said that.
Q. In fact, your mother has said it?
A. Yes, we've had that trouble.
Q. You remember back from September, 1994, to April 6, 1995,
just a few days before this that there was a dispute about
whether some phone calls were being made from the hotel to the
Dominican Republic?
A. I do not recall that incident.
Q. You're not familiar with that?
Eric McGown - Cross
A. No, I'm not.
Q. Okay. You're not familiar with Room 26 on March 19, 1995,
showing two calls from the Dominican Republic when the room is
not rented?
A. I do not recall that incident.
Q. What about phone calls made to the Blakesley residence in
Iowa? You remember that incident?
A. I remember Bruce Blakesley, a resident of the motel, but I
do not recall the incident with his number.
Q. Do you know a Joseph Nave, N-A-V-E?
A. No, I do not.
Q. All right. Has your mother been subpoenaed?
A. I think she may have.
Q. Is your mother going to be here?
A. I do not know.
Q. You don't know whether your mother is going to testify in
this trial?
A. I do not know. My mom's testimony is her testimony, and
mine is mine.
Q. You still live there with her?
A. I live in a different part of the motel.
Q. Now, Mr. McGown, Mr. Ryan asked you if you had previously
made statements that you saw Mr. McVeigh and the Ryder truck
there on Sunday, and you said that you had.
A. I said I may have saw the truck then. I was never sure of
Eric McGown - Cross
that. I've never said I was positive of that fact.
Q. Do you know Jayna Davis of Channel 4 in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Were you interviewed by her on behalf of KFOR shortly
before the first anniversary of the bombing on or about May 16,
1996?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you tell her that you saw the Ryder truck there and
Mr. McVeigh on Sunday evening?
A. I said I thought I saw it there.
Q. Have you seen that film again?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Your recollection is that you told her that you thought you
had seen it there?
A. I have told everybody I thought I saw it.
Q. I'm asking what you told Jayna Davis.
A. I told her the same as I told everybody else: I thought I
saw it.
Q. Has your mother said that she saw it there on Sunday
evening?
MR. RYAN: Objection, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: I do not know.
THE COURT: Just a moment.
Sustained.
Wait before you answer so an objection can be raised.
Eric McGown - Cross
BY MR. JONES:
Q. You didn't tell Jayna Davis you thought you saw it there on
Monday night, did you?
A. I don't recall.
Q. You don't recall. You didn't tell her that you thought you
saw it there on Saturday night, did you?
A. I don't recall.
Q. What you told her, according to you, is that you thought
you saw it there on Sunday night?
A. Correct.
Q. And that was a year after the anniversary about, wasn't it?
A. About.
Q. Did you tell Jayna Davis that you were confused and you
didn't know which night you saw it?
A. I said I was not sure which night I saw it.
Q. That's what you told her?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, you were also interviewed by the FBI
shortly after the bombing incident, were you not?
A. Correct.
Q. In fact, you were interviewed on April 20 and April 21. Is
that correct?
A. I do not remember the dates.
Q. Well, have you seen these 302's?
A. I briefly looked at it.
Eric McGown - Cross
Q. You briefly looked at them. When was the last time you
looked at them?
A. I think two days ago.
Q. Well, as a matter of fact, you read them then, didn't you?
A. I read a paragraph of it, yes.
Q. Well, they're not very long, are they?
A. No, they are not.
Q. Which paragraph did you read? The paragraph talking about
Sunday night?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. And what does the 302 say?
A. It says I think I may have saw it.
Q. Actually, what you told the FBI was that the man who came
to the motel with the Ryder truck, "He thinks the man came
there with a truck on April 16, 1995, and that the Ryder truck
sat at the motel all day on April 17, 1995."
A. I said "I think." I wasn't saying I was sure.
Q. I understand that you said you think. That's what the FBI
agent wrote down, isn't it?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Now, you and your mother have given numerous other
interviews to the media, haven't you?
A. That is correct.
Q. Yeah. ABC, Washington Post?
A. I do not recall.
Eric McGown - Cross
Q. Well, you've given other interviews?
A. Yes, many.
Q. Can you think of any interview where you ever said that you
thought you saw that Ryder truck there on Monday afternoon or
Monday evening?
A. I have never told at any time that I was sure I saw it
then. I always have said I think I may have saw it.
Q. Mr. McGown, how many hours did you spend with the
prosecutors before you testified here today?
A. Between two and three hours.
Q. And they called your attention to this Sunday night
sighting, didn't they?
A. Briefly, yes.
Q. Briefly?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you discuss with them and did they discuss with you
how to answer the question that I was going to ask?
A. Yes, they told me to answer it honestly.
Q. I see. That's all they said.
A. Yes.
Q. Well, did the FBI want you to answer it honestly when they
interviewed you?
A. Apparently. I think they might have said that, yes.
Q. You know that the FBI says that this truck was rented on
Monday.
Eric McGown - Cross
A. I was not aware of that.
Q. You're not aware of that at all?
A. No.
Q. You've never heard that?
A. That has nothing to do with me.
Q. I didn't ask you that. Have you ever heard that the FBI
thinks it was rented on Monday?
A. I've heard of it rented on a Friday, on Saturday, and on
Monday. I do not know when it was rented.
Q. I'm asking you what you've heard the FBI say.
A. I've heard the FBI say it may have been rented Friday, too.
Q. You have? What FBI agent said that?
A. I've heard everything. It's -- it's been over two years of
people I've heard accusing one thing or another. It has
nothing to do with my testimony, so I do not pay attention to
it.
Q. I understand. But on April 20, this was the following day
after the Oklahoma City bombing, wasn't it?
A. I believe so.
Q. And the 21st was two days later.
A. Correct.
Q. Which was the same week, wasn't it --
A. Correct.
Q. -- that Mr. McVeigh, according to your testimony, was
registered there.
Eric McGown - Cross
A. Correct.
Q. So we're only talking about at the most four or five days
after you saw the Ryder truck either on Sunday or whatever day
you saw it.
A. But understand this, sir: They had tooken (sic) out the
bridge to go to school, so I had to drive ex -- to school. My
car was in the shop. I had to repair the motel. I was under
extreme stress that week. I do not remember exact times or
dates. I remember the incidents.
Q. Well, my question to you was, sir, this happened within
four or five days after you saw the Ryder truck, whether it was
Monday or Sunday.
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. Now, as a matter of fact, what you originally said
to them was that you had gone out Sunday afternoon with your
family on Easter Sunday and you all had come back. Isn't that
true?
A. Yes.
MR. RYAN: Could you please show us what you're
talking about, Mr. Jones? Are you --
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan.
MR. RYAN: Excuse me, your Honor. I can't follow
this.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan, that's not an objection; and
it's an interruption that's not appropriate.
Eric McGown - Cross
MR. RYAN: I apologize, your Honor.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Your mother owns the motel, doesn't she?
A. That's correct.
Q. And she works tirelessly there, doesn't she?
A. She works 24 hours a day.
Q. Exactly. She takes two days a year off, doesn't she?
A. Approximately.
Q. Christmas and Easter?
A. Correct.
Q. That's her only time she takes off?
A. More or less, yes.
Q. And you and your sister and your mother run that motel,
don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you know what day is Easter Sunday, don't you?
A. No, not off the top of my head.
Q. You don't?
A. No.
Q. You don't remember Easter Sunday of 1995, one of the two
days your mother took off?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Well, on Easter Sunday, didn't your mother go to church
with some friends?
A. I was sleeping at the time that she goes to church, so I do
Eric McGown - Cross
not know.
Q. Did she pick you up about 1:00 and take you to lunch?
A. Approximately 1:00, yes.
Q. Yeah. And you all went up to Manhattan, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And how long does it take to drive to Manhattan?
A. About 30 minutes.
Q. And so if you left at 1, you would have gotten to Manhattan
about 1:30?
A. Yes.
Q. And you ate where? Carlos O'Kelly's?
A. Correct.
Q. What time did you leave Carlos O'Kelly's?
A. I do not know.
Q. How long did it take you to eat?
A. I do not know. It's two years. I don't remember a meal
two years ago.
Q. I see. Haven't you seen the receipt to show when you left?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Where did you go after Carlos O'Kelly's?
A. I do not recall.
Q. Did you come back to the motel?
A. We may have.
Q. And did you then go back into the apartment?
A. Probably.
Eric McGown - Cross
Q. And when you got back to the apartment on Sunday afternoon
at about 4:00 in the afternoon, didn't your mother tell you,
"Go out there and tell Mr. McVeigh to move that Ryder truck and
get it away from Room 34"?
A. She may have told me that day, or she may have told me the
next day.
Q. Well, you didn't go to Carlos O'Kelly's Monday, did you?
A. No.
Q. And Monday is not Sunday, is it?
A. Correct.
Q. And Monday wasn't Easter, was it?
A. Correct.
Q. And Monday wasn't a day your mother had off, was it?
A. I believe so.
Q. You think your mother took Monday off?
A. I do not know what day she took off.
Q. Were you in school on Monday?
A. I do not recall.
Q. Well, was it a holiday?
A. I do not remember two years ago what day I had off.
Q. So you don't know whether you were in school or not?
A. That is correct.
Q. All right. Now, do you have a long-time tenant in Room 34?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. And is he a day sleeper?
Eric McGown - Cross
A. When he was working, he would work -- sleep both days and
nights.
Q. Well, who was he?
A. It's a Mr. Frank Bigelow.
Q. And where did Mr. Bigelow work?
A. He worked, I think, at that time at a cab company.
Q. And did he work during the day, or did he work at night?
A. He worked both shifts sometimes.
Q. Okay. Do you know what shifts he was working Sunday and
Monday, that Easter Sunday and Monday?
A. No, I do not.
Q. All right. Now, in all of these statements that you have
reviewed that you've made with the FBI, did you ever find one
where you said that you saw the Ryder truck there down by his
room on Monday?
A. No. I've never seen that.
Q. So as far as the Ryder truck, the only time that you
remember seeing the Ryder truck down there, a statement where
you talked about it, was a statement where you said you thought
it was Sunday.
A. I thought it was Sunday. It might have been Monday. I
wasn't sure.
Q. Does the FBI statement say that?
A. No, but it says I was not sure if it was Sunday. It might
have been Saturday, it might have been Sunday, it might have
Eric McGown - Cross
been Monday.
Q. Mr. McGown, do you think the FBI agent would have left out
if you had said Monday?
A. It was a brief statement. He might have.
Q. A brief statement?
A. I've talked to investigators for hours, and that's just a
page or two condensed from hours of talking.
Q. You also said you talked to a defense investigator.
A. I may have. I wasn't sure of that.
Q. You may have.
A. Yes.
Q. What defense investigator of Mr. McVeigh's have you talked
to, Mr. McGown?
A. I do not know.
Q. You haven't talked to any of them because you refused to,
didn't you?
A. I refused to talk to the investigators, yes.
Q. So when Mr. Ryan asked you if you had talked to defense
investigators, you were mistaken. You haven't talked to a
defense investigator for Mr. McVeigh, have you, Mr. McGown?
A. I have not -- I was not sure whether I've had or not,
because we've had -- I recall vividly one person saying he was
an investigator, and then he turned out to be an investigator
for some newspaper. So I'm sure I talked at least to say no, I
will not talk to you, to defense.
Eric McGown - Cross
Q. Well, Mr. McGown, have you talked to a McVeigh defense
investigator or not?
A. To say no, probably.
Q. But you certainly have talked to a lot of media people,
haven't you?
A. Not recently.
Q. I'm not talking about recently.
A. Yes, I have.
Q. In the months after this.
A. Yes.
Q. And you've talked to the FBI?
A. Correct.
Q. And the prosecutors?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you know there is a $2 million reward out in this
case, don't you?
A. I've heard that there was a reward, yes.
Q. And I don't have anything to do with who gets that reward,
do I?
A. I believe you don't.
Q. Now, let's talk a little bit, if we can, Mr. McGown, about
some other matters that you testified to.
As I understand it, you remember Mr. McVeigh's
automobile not only because you're interested in cars --
A. Uh-huh.
Eric McGown - Cross
Q. -- but because of this unusual coloration.
I'll show you Government's Exhibit 414. You talked
about this spot right here, didn't you?
A. The brown primer.
Q. Yes. And then you remember the gray putty?
A. Not that gray putty. There is another gray putty on the
hood that this picture does not show.
Q. I see. All right. So what you remember then from what you
could see on the side without looking up is this area here?
A. That area, yes.
Q. All right. Now, Mr. McGown, from April 15 to, say,
April 19, a period of four days, was there any other automobile
at the Dreamland that had a primer coat like that on it?
A. Not like that.
Q. Okay. Well, was there any other with a primer coat,
period?
A. None that I can recall.
Q. Okay. And you, with an interest in automobiles, would
recall that, wouldn't you?
A. Correct.
Q. And you said that after you saw the Ryder truck, you never
again saw the Mercury.
A. Correct.
Q. Have you talked with any guests at the motel if they saw
the Mercury there on Monday and Tuesday?
Eric McGown - Cross
A. I do not believe I have.
Q. Did you have any other guests at the Dreamland on Sunday,
Easter Sunday, that had a Ryder truck?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any guests there on Saturday that had a Ryder
truck?
A. No, no Ryder truck.
Q. And any truck that looked like a Ryder?
A. None that I can remember.
Q. Okay. How about Monday, other than -- let's just concede
for a moment for purposes of this question that Mr. McVeigh had
a Ryder truck: Were there two Ryder trucks there on Monday?
A. During the days in question of that approximate week, there
was only one Ryder truck there.
Q. So from, say, Saturday, which would be the 15th, to, say,
the 19th, or let's say the 18th, as far as you can recall as a
custodian of the record and as someone that lived at the motel,
there was only one guest with a Ryder truck.
A. Correct.
Q. And you never saw anybody else during that time with a
Ryder truck except Mr. McVeigh.
A. Correct.
Q. Who were the ladies that were employed at the motel as the
cleaning crew?
A. I -- I think they were Teresa DeLeon and Hilda Soster, if I
Eric McGown - Cross
recall.
Q. And do they still work there?
A. No, they do not.
Q. Neither one, or --
A. Neither one does not.
Q. Are they still in Junction City?
A. I do not know where they are.
Q. So you don't know whether they're in Junction City.
A. I do not know.
Q. Now, after the interview that I talked to you about a
moment ago that occurred on April 20th and 21st, you were also
interviewed again on April 25th, were you not?
A. I do not recall.
Q. By a special agent of the FBI?
A. I'd have to know what that interview -- what the
conversation was to remember it. I do not recall that date.
Q. You don't remember it, even though you saw some 302's two
days ago?
A. The only paragraph I was interested in was that one
paragraph.
Q. Did you see a 302 of an interview on April 25, 1995?
A. I do not recall.
Q. How many times in April were you interviewed by the FBI?
A. In April, I do not know.
Q. April of '95?
Eric McGown - Cross
A. I do not know.
Q. Well, then I'll ask you, sir, if on April 25, 1995, you
didn't tell FBI Special Agent Mark Bouton that you saw a yellow
Ryder truck being driven by Tim McVeigh, the man who was a
guest at that time in Room 25 of the Dreamland Motel, arrive at
the Dreamland Motel at about 4:00 p.m. on Sunday afternoon,
April 16, 1995. You saw this Ryder truck when it (sic)
returned from eating at a restaurant from Manhattan, Kansas,
with his family on Easter Sunday?
A. I said I thought I saw it, but I was never sure of that
date or the next day.
Q. So Special Agent Mark Bouton made a mistake?
A. I do not know what he wrote down. All I know is what I
said.
Q. And you don't remember seeing this when you were in the
U.S. attorney's office two days ago?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Now, you were working on the swimming pool, weren't you?
A. That week, yes.
Q. And you also associated the swimming pool with seeing the
Ryder truck, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you worked on the swimming pool on both Sunday and
Monday, didn't you?
A. And on a few other days after school, yes.
Eric McGown - Cross
Q. All right. But you only had Easter Sunday one day, didn't
you?
A. Easter Sunday is only one day.
Q. Yes, sir. And you only left on that Sunday, April 16, to
go eat in Manhattan, didn't you?
A. Correct.
Q. You didn't go to Manhattan on Monday, did you?
A. I don't recall what I did Monday.
Q. Mr. Bouton -- I'm sorry -- Mr. McGown, you are aware, are
you not, that the statements as reflected in the FBI 302's that
you gave on April 21 and April 25 are inconsistent with the
theory that Mr. McVeigh rented the truck on Monday? Aren't
you?
A. If that's the case, it is. I'm not aware of that.
Q. You're not aware of it.
A. I'm not aware of anything that's not dealing with what I
remember.
Q. Well, doesn't this deal with what you remember?
A. That's -- what they think is what they think. What I
remember is what I remember.
Q. Now, one other thing: You said that you always ask for
identification when someone checks in the motel.
A. Yes. That's required that we have to have a form of
identification.
Q. I understand it may be required. I just want to be sure
Eric McGown - Cross
that your testimony under oath is that you always ask for
identification.
A. Yes, I always ask to see a driver's license --
Q. And your mother does?
A. I do not know what my mother does. All I know is what I
do.
Q. So your mother might not always ask?
A. I do not know. That's her, not me. If you want to ask her
that question, you call her here and ask her that question.
MR. JONES: No further questions, Mr. McGown.
THE COURT: Do you have any redirect?
MR. RYAN: Could I have just a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. You're 19 years old, aren't you?
A. Correct.
Q. You were 17 at the time that the entire national media
descended upon you there at the Dreamland Motel in Junction
City?
A. Correct.
Q. Are you nervous?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you feel like you're being picked upon?
A. A little. This is -- it's very nervous for me.
Eric McGown - Redirect
Q. All right. Just slow down for a minute. And I want to
talk to you about two interviews you gave to the FBI.
A. Okay.
Q. Isn't it a fact that on April 21 when you are interviewed
by the FBI, you said, quote, "He thinks the man came there with
the truck on 4-16-95"?
A. Yes.
Q. Isn't that what you said?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you told the FBI a few days later, quote, "He also
associates seeing the Ryder truck with the afternoon that he
was cleaning the swimming pool at the Dreamland Motel. He
cleans the swimming pool on both Sunday, April 16, and Monday,
April 17."
A. Correct.
Q. That's what you told the FBI.
A. Uh-huh. Yes.
Q. You're just not sure.
A. I'm just not sure.
MR. RYAN: That's all, your Honor.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q. When you were interviewed by the gentleman whose names I
mentioned, you knew they were special agents for the FBI?
A. At the time I was doing the interview, I would have been.
Eric McGown - Recross
Q. You were a junior in high school?
A. Yes.
Q. You were 17 years old?
A. Correct.
Q. And you were responsible enough that you've testified here
that you are a custodian of the records of the motel?
A. Correct.
Q. And in fact, your mother depended upon you and counted upon
you to assume responsibility to assist her in managing the
hotel?
A. Correct.
Q. And you had all of those duties?
A. Correct.
Q. Including the registration?
A. Correct.
Q. Supervising people there and helping them?
A. Yes.
Q. And your mother would dispatch you to take care of guests?
A. When it was needed, yes.
Q. Yes. And you have continued those duties.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you weren't 17 on April 16, 1996, when you were
talking to Jayna Davis, were you?
A. No. I would have been a year older.
Q. And Jayna Davis is not with the FBI, is she?
Eric McGown - Recross
A. That's correct.
Q. And you and your mother, in order to have the interview,
you must have consented to the interview?
A. I think one of the very last interviews we did.
Q. I mean, you didn't think you were talking to the FBI when
you were talking to Jayna Davis?
A. Correct.
Q. And when the cameras came on and the lights came on and you
started -- she started to ask you these questions about Sunday,
you knew what she was talking about, didn't you?
A. The questions --
Q. Yes.
A. And I've told her and I told everybody else, I think it may
have been that day. It may have been the next day.
Q. I didn't ask you that, Mr. McGown. I asked you if you knew
what she was asking you.
A. Yes.
Q. And was your mother there present?
A. For part of it, she may have been.
Q. Right. In fact, the interview was actually with both of
you?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes?
A. A portion of it, yes.
Q. Right. And this was a year after the bombing?
Eric McGown - Recross
A. Yes.
Q. A year in which you had to think and reflect back on what
you remember?
A. Correct.
Q. And I take it your mother was not 17 in April of 1995, was
she?
A. Correct.
Q. And how long had she had the motel in April of 1995?
A. Since late 1989.
Q. Okay.
MR. JONES: No further questions. Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Is the witness to be excused?
MR. RYAN: Yes, your Honor.
MR. JONES: No, your Honor. We'd like to have him
available, please. He can certainly leave as long as he's
under the subpoena.
THE COURT: Yeah. Well, I take it you're going to be
back at your home.
THE WITNESS: I would like to go back home, yes.
THE COURT: All right. But you're still under orders
not to discuss your testimony with anyone.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE COURT: And you are particularly not to discuss
your testimony with your mother.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You understand that's my order?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. You can go home. We'll let you
know if you have to come back.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Well, we're, members of the jury, near
5:00; so we're going to be generous and give you extra time off
today. We'll take the recess at this point.
And, of course, please, I know it's difficult, some
days more difficult than others, to not think about what it is
that you've heard today, what it means in the overall picture
here and the like; and of course, I'm telling you, don't do it.
Remember that this trial is lengthy, takes place a witness at a
time, an exhibit at a time; so please withhold judgment in your
own minds until you have heard it all and you hear me tell you
now it's time to talk about it, which will be a while.
So just put it at rest in your own minds; and of
course, don't discuss it with other jurors or with anybody
else. And be very careful now about what you read, see, and
hear in any form of communication or publication so that you
can be true to your oath and decide on the law and the
evidence.
You're excused till 9:00 tomorrow morning.
(Jury out at 4:58 p.m.)
THE COURT: Recess, 9:00.
(Recess at 4:58 p.m.)
* * * * *
INDEX
Item Page
WITNESSES
Thomas Manning Deposition (attached as separate
volume)
Eric McGown
Direct Examination by Mr. Ryan
Cross-examination by Mr. Jones
Redirect Examination by Mr. Ryan
Recross-examination by Mr. Jones
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS
Exhibit Offered Received Refused Reserved Withdrawn
270-O 7728 7728
273B - 273I 7725 7725
273K 7725 7726
273L 7726 7726
273M 7727 7727
273Q 7727
273T 7729 7730
273R 7730 7730
273J 7730 7730
273S 7731
283 7739 7740
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS (continued)
Exhibit Offered Received Refused Reserved Withdrawn
287 7739 7740
294
294 7746 7760 7746
295 7759 7760
306A 7756 7756
* * * * *
REPORTERS' CERTIFICATE
We certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from
the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. Dated
at Denver, Colorado, this 8th day of May, 1997.
_______________________________
Paul Zuckerman
_______________________________
Bonnie Carpenter