OKC Bombing Trial Transcript - 05/07/1997 14:50 CDT/CST
05/07/1997
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH,
Defendant.
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REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury - Volume 82)
컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴�
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 9:00 a.m., on the 7th day of May, 1997,
in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver, Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK M. RYAN, United States Attorney for the
Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400,
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
JOSEPH H. HARTZLER, LARRY A. MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON,
JAMIE ORENSTEIN, AITAN GOELMAN, and VICKI BEHENNA, Special
Attorneys to the U.S. Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street,
Suite 1200, Denver, Colorado, 80294, appearing for the
plaintiff.
ROBERT NIGH, JR. and AMBER McLAUGHLIN, Attorneys at
Law, Jones, Wyatt & Roberts, 999 18th Street, Suite 2460,
Denver, Colorado, 80202; and CHERYL A. RAMSEY, Attorney at Law,
Szlichta and Ramsey, 8 Main Place, Post Office Box 1206,
Stillwater, Oklahoma, 74076, appearing for Defendant McVeigh.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 9:00 a.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
Good morning. Are we ready for the jury?
MR. HARTZLER: Yes.
MR. NIGH: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Jury in at 9:00 a.m.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, good morning. We're
ready to resume our trial.
Call the next witness.
MR. HARTZLER: Luule Suozzi. Mr. Goelman will do the
questioning.
MS. RAMSEY: Your Honor --
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. RAMSEY: -- we would object to this witness as not
being given appropriate notice as the Court has ordered that we
be given.
THE COURT: Well, what's the response?
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, they were provided with
notice that there would be a NYNEX records custodian
testifying. At that time, we did not know the exact identity.
It would be our position that the records custodian are
fungible as far as --
THE COURT: Well, what's the testimony going to be
about?
MR. GOELMAN: Simply NYNEX records kept in the
ordinary course of business.
THE COURT: Objection is overruled. Swear the
witness.
(Luule Suozzi affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
State your full name for the record and spell your
last name.
THE WITNESS: My first name is Luule. It's spelled
L-U-U-L-E. My last name is Suozzi. It's spelled S-u-o-z-z-i.
THE COURT: Proceed.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning, Ms. Suozzi.
A. Good morning.
Q. Where do you live?
A. I live in New York.
Q. What do you do in New York?
A. I work for NYNEX as a security investigator.
Q. What kind of company is NYNEX?
A. NYNEX is a telecommunications company. It provides local
service to our providers.
Q. And what area does NYNEX cover?
A. It handles New York state as well as New England.
Q. Does NYNEX coverage extend to the Buffalo area in New York
state?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And what do you do as an investigator of corporate
security?
A. I investigate internal matters concerning our employees. I
investigate subscriber fraud, and I'm also called to testify in
court on company records as a custodian of records.
Q. How long have you worked for NYNEX?
Luule Suozzi - Direct
A. It'll be 20 years this coming August.
Q. And through -- in these 20 years, did you get a chance to
become familiar with the different kinds of records that NYNEX
keeps?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. As a local phone company, how does NYNEX make money?
A. By billing customers for their calling and also for their
services that we provide.
Q. Does NYNEX keep track of every call that's made within its
area?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. And what kind of information does NYNEX record for each
phone call made?
A. It would record the date and the time and the duration of
the call so we could bill you properly and the location that
was called.
Q. When does NYNEX first retain this information?
A. When you actually pick up your phone and make a phone call,
when it's connected to the other location, it starts
registering; and we keep that on magnetic tapes. The tapes are
then retrieved on bill cycle when your bill would be prepared
for you.
Q. Without the information on these magnetic tapes,
Ms. Suozzi, could NYNEX make any money?
A. Unfortunately not.
Luule Suozzi - Direct
Q. Would you please pick up the binder up there that's marked
Government Exhibit 521 and turn to page 77 and tell me if you
recognize that.
Do you recognize that, ma'am?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is it?
A. This is called an AMA tape, which is "automated message
accounting" tape; and it provides information on a particular
call number, all the calls that either originate or terminate
from a particular line on the date.
Q. Is that record something that NYNEX kept in the regular
course of its business?
A. Yes. It's kept because of billing search tape.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, we move to admit page 77,
Government Exhibit 521.
MS. RAMSEY: Your Honor, our objection would be as to
relevancy at this time.
THE COURT: Overruled. Subject to connection is the
way I'll be receiving these.
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Ms. Suozzi, as a local telephone company, does NYNEX also
keep records of who its subscribers are?
A. That's correct. That's how we bill our customers.
Q. And does this include subscriber name and address?
Luule Suozzi - Direct
A. It would give a subscriber name, the location of the phone
as well as the bill address.
Q. Why is location of the phone important to NYNEX?
A. In case you have any troubles on your line, we need to send
a repairman; or if you have any changes on your service, we
need to know where your phone is located.
Q. Can you pick up the other enormous binder that you have up
there, Government Exhibit 520.
A. Sorry. This one opened.
Q. Take a look at pages 142 to 151.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you recognize those records?
A. Yes, I do. In front of me, I have repair records called
DLR, which is "display line record." It would be records kept
in the normal course of business for the repair.
Q. Okay. Are all the pages between 142 and 151 records that
NYNEX would keep in the normal course of business?
A. Yes, they would be.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, we move to admit pages 142
to 151 of Government Exhibit 520.
MS. RAMSEY: Same objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Same ruling. It's received
subject to connection.
MR. GOELMAN: I have nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any questions?
Luule Suozzi - Cross
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Good morning.
A. Good morning.
Q. Ms. Suozzi, in the records that you have provided, which
would be in 521 and 522, I believe, and the pages that you have
looked at, can you tell me who placed a telephone call?
A. No. All I can do is tell you the number that was called
and the number the call came from. We would not be able to
tell you who actually made the call.
Q. So you cannot tell me who placed the call or who received
the call or what the telephone conversation was regarding;
isn't that correct?
A. That's correct, ma'am.
Q. And you cannot tell me that Timothy McVeigh ever made a
phone call either from or to the numbers that you're sponsoring
as being business records; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
MS. RAMSEY: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any other questions of this witness?
MR. GOELMAN: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: Is she excused?
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Government calls Marshall Weldy.
Ms. Behenna will question.
THE COURT: All right.
(Marshall Weldy affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name, please.
THE WITNESS: Marshall Weldy, W-E-L-D-Y.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Are you employed, Mr. Weldy?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Where do you work?
A. I work for General Telephone Company, GTE telephone
operations in Tampa, Florida.
Q. And how long have you worked there?
A. I've worked there 17 and a half years.
Q. What do you do for GTE?
A. I am the manager of security operations.
Q. And your job responsibilities include what?
A. Primarily, job responsibilities include functioning as
custodian of records to comply with subpoenas and court orders
for records.
Q. Are you familiar with the subscriber records kept by GTE
Marshall Weldy - Direct
telephone?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Let me have you look at Government's Exhibit 520, pages 121
through 138.
A. Do you want me to go ahead and browse through them?
Q. Can you identify them?
A. Yes. These are all subscriber records for GTE.
Q. Why does GTE keep subscriber information?
A. Well, the primary reason for keeping subscriber information
is to respond to custom -- customer requirements and requests
for service with their telephone. It -- it basically provides
the service address or the physical location where the
telephone is located.
Q. Is this subscriber information recorded at the time the
customer establishes service with GTE?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And are subscriber records -- let me ask it this way, is it
the regular practice of GTE to keep and make subscriber
records?
A. Yes.
Q. And they are kept in the ordinary course of business with
GTE?
A. That is correct, yes, ma'am.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, at this time I would move
for the admission of Government Exhibit 520, pages 121 through
Marshall Weldy - Direct
138.
MS. RAMSEY: Same objection.
THE COURT: Same objection, I take it, and
conditionally admitted.
MS. BEHENNA: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Mr. Weldy, let me have you look at Government's Exhibit
521. I think it's in the other binder. Pages -- I'm sorry --
75 and 76.
MS. RAMSEY: 75 and 76?
MS. BEHENNA: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Can you identify those?
A. Yes. These are universal message searches, message
searches which was conducted by GTE.
Q. Do they contain toll information on them, toll records?
A. Yes, they do. And I do recognize the two numbers as being
coin telephones.
Q. Why does GTE keep toll records?
A. Toll records are kept just like they would for anybody's
telephone bill, for the purpose of billing for toll calls.
Q. And the records of these calls are made at or near the time
a long distance call is placed?
A. That is correct, yes.
Marshall Weldy - Direct
Q. And it's the regular practice of GTE to make such records?
A. That's correct, also.
Q. And the records are kept in the ordinary course of
business?
A. That is correct.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, at this time, we move for
the admission of pages 75 and 76 of Government's Exhibit 521.
MS. RAMSEY: Same objection.
THE COURT: I think we could have a continuing
objection if that's agreeable to --
MS. RAMSEY: That's fine, your Honor.
THE COURT: The objection as being relevance, really?
MS. RAMSEY: Yes.
THE COURT: And I'll be receiving them conditionally
subject to connection later so -- let's have that understanding
for the next series of witnesses producing the same types of
records.
MS. RAMSEY: That would be fine, your Honor.
MS. BEHENNA: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Mr. Weldy, real quick before you -- I forgot to ask you on
Government's Exhibit 520. Let me -- I think it's the bigger
binder. Let me have you look at page 136. Are you with me?
A. Yes, I am.
Marshall Weldy - Direct
Q. Okay. Can you tell the jury what subscriber has been
assigned the No. (703)289-6958?
A. Yes. The subscriber for that -- and by the way, there was
an area code change on that, and the current area code is 540,
which is reflected on this particular record. But the 703 area
code and 540 are essentially one in the same.
Q. Okay. And whose --
A. And the subscriber for that particular telephone number was
Greg, middle initial, Pfaff, P-A -- excuse me -- P-F-A-F-F.
And the address is 1790-10 East Market Street, Suite 224,
Harrisonburg, Virginia. Zip code is 22801.
Q. Thank you. Let me have you turn to page 17 -- 137. I'm
sorry. And can you tell the jury what subscriber has been
assigned the number, again area code (703)433-3978?
A. Yes. That particular telephone number is assigned to --
it's a second line at Brooklyn's Delicatessen at 2035 East
Market Street, Suite 51, Harrisonburg, Virginia, zip code
22801.
Q. And one more. Let me have you look at page 138.
Mr. Weldy, can you tell the jury what subscriber has been
assigned the number (715)627-7087?
A. The subscriber for that telephone number is Paulsen's,
P-A-U-L-S-E-N apostrophe S, Military Supply, 705-5th Avenue,
Antigo, Wisconsin. And the zip is 54409.
MS. BEHENNA: Thank you. That's all I have, your
Marshall Weldy - Direct
Honor.
THE COURT: Ms. Ramsey.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Mr. Weldy, can you tell me in any of the exhibits that you
have identified anyone who has placed a phone call from any
number?
A. Could you restate the question for clarification, please.
Q. Yes. You've looked at certain records from 520 and 521.
Can you tell me the name of a person who has placed a phone
call from any of the exhibits that you have just discussed with
the Court?
A. No, I cannot.
Q. Can you tell me anyone who has received a phone call from
any of these numbers?
A. No, I cannot.
Q. And can you tell me the content of any conversation with
regard to these particular numbers?
A. No, I cannot.
Q. And can you tell me that Timothy McVeigh ever placed a call
or received a call from either of the numbers that you have
discussed?
A. No, ma'am.
MS. RAMSEY: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Witness to be excused?
MS. BEHENNA: Yes, your Honor.
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Next.
MR. HARTZLER: Government calls Shirley Hiner.
Mr. Goelman will question.
THE COURT: Thank you.
(Shirley Hiner affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name, please.
THE WITNESS: Shirley Hiner, H-I-N-E-R.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning, Ms. Hiner.
A. Good morning.
Q. Where do you work?
A. For Ameritech.
Q. Where is that located?
A. Ameritech is located in Chicago, Illinois.
Q. And is that where you live?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you worked for Ameritech?
Shirley Hiner - Direct
A. 19 years.
Q. And what's your position there?
A. I'm a manager in corporate security.
Q. What kind of responsibilities does that involve?
A. What we do there, we respond to subpoenas, court orders,
and summons that are served on Ameritech. We also obtain,
provide, and interpret Ameritech documents for federal, state,
and local law enforcement agencies as well as private
attorneys.
Q. What kind of company is Ameritech?
A. Ameritech is a local telephone company.
Q. And what areas does it cover?
A. It covers the state of Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio,
and Indiana.
Q. And does Ameritech keep subscribers -- keep information
about subscribers in those states?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. What kind of information do you keep about those particular
subscribers?
A. We keep the subscriber's name, the address where services
are located and the address in case -- where the bills are sent
in case it's different. We also keep credit information on the
subscriber.
Q. Ms. Hiner, can you look in the binder that's labeled
Government Exhibit 520. And take a look at pages 4 to 36 and
Shirley Hiner - Direct
see if they are Ameritech records that you recognize.
A. 426 -- and the alphabetical index --
Q. The numbered pages.
MS. RAMSEY: What pages were those, Mr. Goelman?
MR. GOELMAN: 4 through 36.
MS. RAMSEY: Thank you.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Miss Hiner, did you review this before coming to court?
Did you review these pages?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. Are these records that Ameritech makes and keeps in
the regular course of business?
A. Yes, they are.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit pages 4 through 36 of
Exhibit 520, your Honor.
THE COURT: Conditionally admitted pursuant to
agreement.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Ms. Hiner, will you please turn to page 26, that same
exhibit. Does that particular record contain subscriber
information for (313)787-2295?
A. For -- on page 26?
Q. Yes.
A. Not my page 26. Look at the page at the bottom on the
right? The number at the bottom on the right?
Shirley Hiner - Direct
Q. One second, please. It's not the number up top. That says
(810)787-2295; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that 810 area code the same thing as a 313 area
code?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you explain why.
A. With the growth of the -- of the telecommunication
industry, we are running out of numbers; so what happens is
that we started what we call splitting area codes. 818 -- I'm
sorry. 810 and 313 covers the same area. And we had to split
an area code, which means that a person who may have had a -- a
313 telephone number at one point would have the same telephone
number with a different prefix of 810 to just free up some
numbers.
Q. Ms. Hiner, did you respond to the Government's subpoena in
this case yourself?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. And when you're looking at the record on page 26, do
you see whether or not that phone was in service when you
responded?
A. It was not in service when we responded.
Q. When was it disconnected?
A. It was disconnected August 1 of 1994.
Q. So who would the subscriber have been on January 24, 1995?
Shirley Hiner - Direct
MS. RAMSEY: Your Honor, we're going to object.
That's not contained in the record that's been provided.
THE COURT: Yeah. I don't see that on page 26.
MR. GOELMAN: That's why I'm eliciting testimony, your
Honor. She personally has knowledge that there was no
subscriber on that particular date.
THE COURT: How does she get such knowledge?
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Ms. Hiner, did you respond to the subpoena yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you check to see if there was any subscriber for
this particular number besides the one indicated on page 26?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you do that checking?
A. We have a system where we -- where our records are kept and
we will look for the particular month in question. If there is
a subscriber, that information will come up. If there is not
one, then we will get an indication that the number is not in
service.
Q. And did you get that indication for this particular number?
A. Yes, we did.
MS. RAMSEY: Your Honor, we would continue to object
for the reason that these records obviously do not reflect what
she's testifying to.
THE COURT: Well, it shows discontinued 8-1-94,
Shirley Hiner - Direct
doesn't it?
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, it does. But it doesn't show the
subscriber information that I believe she's going to testify
to.
THE COURT: As I understand it, there is no subscriber
information after that date. Is that what you said?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MS. RAMSEY: I mean prior to that date.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. GOELMAN: I have nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Ms. Hiner, in all of the records that you have provided to
the Government, can you tell me who placed a call from any of
these numbers in pages 4 through 36?
A. No, I cannot.
Q. Can you tell me who received a call in the pages 4 through
36 which you have provided?
A. No, I cannot.
Q. And can you tell me the content of any conversation?
A. No, I cannot.
Q. And can you tell me that Timothy McVeigh ever placed a
phone call or received a phone call at any of these numbers in
the pages that you have provided to the Court?
Shirley Hiner - Cross
A. No, I cannot.
MS. RAMSEY: Nothing further, your Honor. I have no
objection to her being excused.
THE COURT: All right. Are you excusing her?
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
MR. HARTZLER: Our next witness is Tamara Winkler.
Mr. Ryan will question.
THE COURT: All right.
(Tamara Winkler affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name, please.
THE WITNESS: Tamara Winkler, W-I-N-K-L-E-R.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Good morning. With whom are you employed, Ms. Winkler?
A. Southwestern Bell.
Q. You'll have to speak up a little.
A. Southwestern Bell.
Q. Where is that located?
A. I'm in Oklahoma City.
Q. Following the bombing in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995,
were you -- was your company, Southwestern Bell, subpoenaed by
Tamara Winkler - Direct
the United States to locate certain records?
A. Yes, we were.
Q. Please try to speak up just a little bit.
A. Yes, we were.
Q. Okay. What did you do?
A. We were subpoenaed to pull certain telephone records and
documents and --
Q. And did you do that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what records, in a general sense, did you locate and
provide to the United States?
A. Well, there were several different documents that we
pulled. Mostly, they were records to confirm subscriber
information on particular phone numbers, where the phones were
located and who they belonged to during a certain time period.
Plus, we also were requested to provide long distance records
on certain numbers.
Q. All right. Now, you did that; correct?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And before coming here today, you've reviewed the records
that you've provided to the United States pursuant to a
subpoena?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. Would you please turn to your binder there
that's marked Exhibit 520. And I'd like to direct your
Tamara Winkler - Direct
attention to pages 169 to 296.
A. Okay.
Q. Take a moment to satisfy yourself that those are the
records of Southwestern Bell, about 128 pages, and let us know
whether those are, in fact, records you supplied from your
company to the United States pursuant to the subpoena.
A. These are all our records.
Q. Speak up just a little bit more.
A. Yes. These are all our records.
Q. All right. Now, what is your position with Southwestern
Bell?
A. I'm manager in the corporate security office.
Q. And is one of your functions concerned as the custodian of
records of Southwestern Bell?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. What are the records we're looking at, generally?
A. Generally, these are records showing particular phone
numbers, who they belong to and where the phones are located.
Q. So did the FBI provide you with a list of numbers and ask
you to provide information as to who they belonged to?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that what these records are?
A. That's correct.
Q. Are these records kept in the ordinary course of the
business of Southwestern Bell?
Tamara Winkler - Direct
A. Yes, they are.
Q. And are these -- are these records created contemporaneous
with the actual installation of service and the various things
that occur regarding a customer's account?
A. Yes.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would move into evidence
pages 169 to 296 of Exhibit 520.
THE COURT: Again, with the continuing objection --
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: -- agreed upon, they are received
conditionally.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, you don't know who made these calls?
A. No.
Q. In fact, these aren't even calls right here. These are
just records of who they belong to?
A. Right.
Q. All right. Would you please turn to page 209. Actually,
turn to page 181 first.
A. Okay.
Q. What information is contained in that particular record
that's been admitted conditionally regarding the name of the
subscriber and the telephone number involved?
A. The telephone number is area code (316)382-3535. The
customer who owns this service is Terry Nichols in Marion,
Tamara Winkler - Direct
Kansas.
Q. All right. Please turn to page 222. What does that record
tell us?
A. The telephone number is (913)258-3400. The customer is
Terry Nichols, Herington, Kansas.
Q. All right. Please turn to page 255. What does that record
tell us?
A. This is a Telephone No. (913)539-2700. It is listed for VP
Racing Fuels in Manhattan, Kansas.
Q. And finally, turn to page 209. And what does that record
tell us?
A. It's for Telephone No. (405)232-6331. It's listed for
Mid-America Chemical, Incorporated. And that's in Oklahoma
City.
Q. All right. Thank you. Now, if you would, please turn to
the other binder in front of you there, Exhibit 521. And
please turn to pages 111 to 125, and take a moment to look at
those records.
A. Okay.
Q. Okay. Are those records that you provided to the United
States in connection with a subpoena in this case?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. And tell us generally what they are.
A. This is what we call a verbatim search, and it's where we
can go in and search our system for calls that originate or
Tamara Winkler - Direct
terminate to a particular number. It's a long distance record.
Q. And do these calls originate or terminate or both?
A. These are -- these are calls originating.
Q. All right. Now, again, I'd ask you the same questions with
respect to you being the custodian, and these are ordinary
business records of the company?
A. Right.
Q. Would that be true?
A. That's correct.
Q. And these are again -- are these calls made to the -- these
records made at the same time the calls are being made?
A. Yes. That's correct.
Q. And is there a consistent phone number with respect to
the -- all of these records, pages 111 to 125 on Exhibit 521?
A. It looks like these are calls that our search was conducted
for all calls originating from a particular number.
Q. What is that number? Or excuse me.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, I'll offer pages 111 to 125 of
Exhibit 521.
THE COURT: Same --
MS. RAMSEY: Yes.
THE COURT: -- agreed procedure here. Received
conditionally.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. RYAN:
Tamara Winkler - Direct
Q. What telephone number was involved with these 15 or so
pages in Exhibit 521?
A. It is -- the calls are originating from -- area code
(316)767-5230 is the originating number.
Q. And is there a terminating number?
A. There is a terminating number. It's area code
(800)793-3377.
Q. Now, if you would, you have -- if you'll close the binder
and set it aside. You should have in the folder that was
handed to you three additional exhibits. Do you see those?
A. Yes.
Q. And are they marked Exhibit 574, 575, and 576?
A. That's correct.
Q. And would you identify these records in a general sense.
A. Okay. Exhibit 574 is a document showing telephone records
for area code (316)382-3535, belonging to Terry Nichols,
Marion, Kansas. It's his -- it's a telephone -- like a
telephone bill.
Q. Yes.
A. It would -- it shows some long distance calls.
Q. And turn to the next exhibit, please, 575.
A. 575 is for area code (316)662-2213. That's for Gary
Mussatto, doing business as Hutchinson Raceway Park in
Hutchinson, Kansas.
Q. All right. And again, please turn to Exhibit 576.
Tamara Winkler - Direct
A. Area code (316)283-4484. It's listing information for
Newton Hobby Center, and this is in Newton, Kansas.
Q. All right. Now, are these all business records of
Southwestern Bell?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Are you the custodian of these records?
A. I am.
Q. And were these records made in the ordinary course of the
business of Southwestern Bell?
A. That's correct.
Q. And were these records at least created within the
Southwestern Bell computer at the same time these calls were
generated?
A. Yes.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would move into evidence
Exhibits 574, 575, and 576 conditionally.
THE COURT: All right. Same reservation; they are
received.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Now, Ms. Winkler, you don't know who made these calls;
correct?
A. No. We do not know.
Q. You don't know who received the calls?
A. No.
Q. You don't know if Timothy McVeigh was on the calls?
Tamara Winkler - Direct
A. No.
Q. And you don't know the content of the calls?
A. No.
Q. You just know the numbers that were used to make the calls
and the numbers at the other end where the person called?
A. Right.
MR. RYAN: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Ms. Ramsey?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. You don't know if Terry Nichols placed any calls or
received any calls from these records, do you?
A. No, I do not.
Q. And you don't know whether the subscriber name for Terry
Nichols or any of these other places are actually true, do you?
A. We know that the phone is listed to who is on the account.
I mean, that's what the information is.
Q. Right. They applied for the telephone number in the name
that's on this account; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. But you don't know whether the person or the business that
applied for that account was telling the truth, do you?
A. When -- whenever we establish phone service, we do a check
on Social Security numbers, or we do a check on -- do credit
checks and such to determine if that person is legitimate.
Tamara Winkler - Cross
Q. Okay.
A. If the information we have is legitimate so that we can set
up phone service.
Q. Can you tell by looking at these records if that was done?
A. It's done on all of our accounts.
Q. Can you tell by looking at these records if that was done?
A. It does not have any record on here to indicate.
MS. RAMSEY: No further questions, your Honor. I have
no objection to her being excused.
THE COURT: May she be?
MR. RYAN: No, your Honor. Yes, she may be excused.
No, I don't have any further questions. Yes, she may be
excused.
THE COURT: Thank you. You may be excused.
Next witness.
MR. HARTZLER: Ralph Cayton. Mr. Goelman will
question.
THE COURT: All right.
(Ralph Cayton affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Please state your full name for the record and spell
your last name, please.
THE WITNESS: It's Ralph Allen Cayton, C-a-y-t-o-n.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Ralph Cayton - Direct
Q. Good morning, Mr. Cayton.
A. Good morning.
Q. What do you do for work?
A. I'm the government and community relations director for the
Arizona Telephone Division of Citizens Utilities Company.
Q. Where do you live?
A. In Kingman, Arizona.
Q. Is that where the company is based?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Describe your educational background real briefly, sir.
A. I have an undergraduate degree in education, majors in
physics and mathematics, and a master's in business
administration from the University of Missouri.
Q. When did you go into the telecommunications industry?
A. Started in 1969. Have been there to the present.
Q. And how long have you been at Citizens?
A. Since 1982.
Q. What's your responsibilities as director of government and
community relations?
A. I handle a lot of regulatory-related matters. I handle all
incoming subpoenas for various types of actions, civil,
criminal, those -- those types of things.
Q. Through your work, are you familiar with the kinds of
records that Citizens keeps?
A. Yes, I am.
Ralph Cayton - Direct
Q. And does Citizens Utilities keep records of every phone
call that's made within its area?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. What is Citizens' area that you're responsible for?
A. Our service area covers basically all Mohave County, which
is in the northwestern portion of Arizona.
Q. At what time is the information about a particular phone
call first recorded by Citizens?
A. The information is reported, in effect, in real time, as
the various call events occur, and they are recorded in memory
in the central office switches.
Q. And why are these particular records kept, Mr. Cayton?
A. All of those record pieces become a portion of what is
later compiled, and calls are rated for billing purposes. And
it's the source data to back up our billing to our customers
for revenue.
Q. Did you receive a subpoena from the Government in
connection with this case, Mr. Cayton?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And did you respond to that subpoena?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. I ask you to pick up Government Exhibit 521, which you have
in front of you. And before coming to court, did you review
pages 1 through 72 of Government Exhibit 521?
A. Yes.
Ralph Cayton - Direct
Q. Did you find that those were business records of Citizens
Utilities?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Records of calls that were made at the time that the calls
themselves were placed?
A. Yes.
Q. And records that Citizens keeps in its regular course of
business?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, we move to admit pages 1
through 72, Government Exhibit 521.
MS. RAMSEY: Same objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Same continuing objection. They are
admitted conditionally.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. Cayton, can you take a look at one of the pages -- I
guess just page 1. Look at -- look at a couple of the
different pages and tell me if the "to" number is the same on
all those pages.
A. Yes.
Q. What's that "to" number?
A. "To" number is (800)793-3377.
Q. Thank you, Mr. Cayton. Does Citizens also keep records of
the -- of who the subscribers to the various phone numbers in
Ralph Cayton - Direct
its area are?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. Why do you keep these records?
A. It's the basis of a portion of our billing system, also.
We need to know billing information, physical address
information, the types of services the customers have, and so
on.
Q. Did you also produce this type of record in response to a
Government subpoena in this case?
A. Yes.
Q. And can you take a look at Government Exhibit 520, pages 60
through 113. Tell me if this is something that you also
reviewed before coming to court today. You don't have to look
at each page, as long as you recognize it's the same --
A. Yes, it is.
MR. GOELMAN: I move to admit with the same
reservation.
THE COURT: Same reserved objections continuing, and
conditionally admitted.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: 60 to 113?
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. Cayton, to your knowledge, was there an area code split
Ralph Cayton - Direct
in your area of Arizona at some point in the last several
years?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. And what area code was -- was there previously and what are
there now?
A. Previously, Arizona was a single -- single area code, 620.
The --
Q. 620, or --
A. Excuse me. 602. And when the area code split took place,
the Phoenix metropolitan area maintained 602. The remaining
portion of the state is now 520.
Q. So calls that were made to a 602 area code can now be
reflected as either 520 or 602?
A. That's correct.
Q. Let me ask you to turn to page 110 in that same exhibit,
Government Exhibit 520. Who's the listed subscriber for this
particular phone number?
A. This is page 110?
Q. Yes.
A. Listed subscriber is Ryder Truck Rental One Way, Inc.
Q. Mr. Cayton, did you also produce another subscriber record
in response to a subsequent government subpoena?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
Ralph Cayton - Direct
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Can you look inside there and see if you can find
Government Exhibit marked for identification 579.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that also a subscriber record from Citizens Utilities?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And is it also made and kept in the ordinary course of
Citizens' business?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, move to admit Government
Exhibit 579 conditionally to prove -- until we prove up
relevance.
THE COURT: All right. It's received with the same
continuing objection, conditionally.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. What number does this particular record pertain to?
A. The subscriber number is area code (520)757-9154.
Q. Can you tell from the face of that record what kind of
phone this is?
A. Yes. It's a coin telephone, competitive -- COCOT provider.
We provide the public access line to service that phone.
Q. And can you tell from the face of that record where that
phone is physically located?
A. Yes. The physical address page shows that the phone is
Ralph Cayton - Direct
located at 3595 Andy Devine Avenue in Kingman.
Q. Can you tell from that record whether that was the same
location for that phone number on November 14, 1994?
A. It's -- the connect date for service at this location was
10-21-93, with no subsequent disconnect date, which means that
the line is still in service at that address.
Q. And do you have personal knowledge, Mr. Cayton, as to where
this pay phone is located?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How do you have that knowledge?
A. I actually checked out the location at your request at a
Tri-Mart in Kingman on Andy Devine.
Q. And how did you verify that that number was to that
particular pay phone?
A. I called back to the company switchboard from that pay
phone, gave the number that I carried in the subscriber record
to the switchboard attendant, and asked her to call me back at
that number. And she subsequently did, and I answered the
phone.
Q. Mr. Cayton, I think you'll find Government Exhibits marked
202 and 243 for identification inside the accordion folder up
there.
A. I have them here.
Q. Turning first to Government Exhibit 202 for identification,
do you recognize that picture?
Ralph Cayton - Direct
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And what is it?
A. That shows the Tri-Mart on Andy Devine in the location of
Pacific's pay station.
Q. Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the way that
Tri-Mart station appears today?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Moving into Government Exhibit 243, Mr. Cayton, do you
recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is that?
A. It's a closeup view of the same location. It shows the
coin telephone as you're facing the front of the building on
the left-hand side, exterior.
Q. And is that also a fair and accurate depiction of the way
that pay phone appears?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, move to admit Government
Exhibits 202 and 243.
MS. RAMSEY: Your Honor, I believe he asked the
question "Is that how it appears today," not as it appears in
1995.
THE COURT: It wasn't clear as to when the photos were
taken.
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor. I believe Mr. Cayton
Ralph Cayton - Direct
only knows how it appears today.
THE COURT: Well, when -- when were you out there?
THE WITNESS: Within the last, oh, seven or eight
days.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. RAMSEY: Object, your Honor.
THE COURT: I'll receive it for what it's worth. 202
and 243.
MR. GOELMAN: May I publish, your Honor?
THE COURT: Do we really need to do that?
MR. GOELMAN: Not if you don't want to, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, I'd like to keep moving here, and I
don't know whether looking at a pay phone is going to help us
right now.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. Cayton, do you have any idea who actually made or
received any of the telephone calls that are relevant to your
records that you've introduced here today?
A. From the content of the records, we know the -- the "from"
numbers, the "to" numbers, the billing numbers, things of that
type.
Q. Sure. But do you know who actually picked up the phone and
made the phone call?
A. From --
Q. From your records?
Ralph Cayton - Direct
A. From the records, no.
MR. GOELMAN: I don't have anything further, your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Do you have any questions?
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Mr. Cayton, did you receive a subpoena from the defense for
phone records on or about September the 10th and on or about
October the 15th of 1996?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And when did you respond to that subpoena, please, sir?
A. It wasn't until -- I'm going to say the last two or three
weeks.
Q. Could it have been April 1?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And at that time, did you fax some records to
us?
A. I believe they were Fed Ex'ed due to volume; they weren't
faxed.
Q. All right. And I -- you have been handed what has been
marked as Defense Exhibit I-4. And you should have a green tab
on that. Yes. Is that a record that you provided to us as
well as to the Government, I believe?
A. It appears to be.
Ralph Cayton - Cross
Q. And is that a record that you normally keep in the course
of business?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Would you please count the number of phone calls that were
made to (800)793-3377 on that page, please, and tell me how
many there are.
A. On this page, there appear to be 10 entries for 3377.
Q. That's correct. And do you receive funds as a result of
making 800 calls or 800 calls being made from your phone?
A. I don't know.
Q. Okay. And are you aware of the purpose for -- for sending
and supplying these records to the Government?
A. I'm assuming it's -- it's associated with the proceeding
here.
Q. Okay. Can you tell me who made any phone calls relating to
the records that you have provided to the Government and to the
defense?
A. Not based on the records. We can tell the numbers, and
that's it.
Q. Are these all originating numbers that you have provided?
A. I believe this -- the subpoenas asked for originating and
terminating type of records.
Q. And so you have provided terminating records?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell me who received any of the phone calls in the
Ralph Cayton - Cross
terminating records --
A. No.
Q. -- that you have provided?
Can you tell me about any of the conversations?
A. No.
Q. Can you tell me -- you cannot tell me that Timothy McVeigh
made any calls or received any calls from this number, can you?
A. No, I can't.
Q. And when did you make the phone call from the pay phone
back to your office to verify the phone number?
A. I don't remember the exact date. It's been within the last
seven or eight days when I physically went out and looked at
the location.
Q. That's when you took the photographs?
A. I did not take the photographs, no, ma'am.
Q. Someone went with you and took the photographs?
A. No. Nobody -- I didn't take any photographs of that
location.
Q. Okay. There have been two photographs that have been
introduced into evidence. Is that when you checked the pay
phone number?
A. I was requested to go out and just verify that that station
was at that location, and that's what I did.
Q. And you were requested by whom?
A. By the Government.
Ralph Cayton - Cross
Q. Have you ever gone out to check a pay phone like this
before?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. For purposes of what?
A. For purposes of fraud occurrence; for purposes of verifying
that a station was at a location in -- in a legal proceeding;
for maintenance purposes; for coin retrieval, audit-type
situations. A variety of reasons.
MR. GOELMAN: All right. No further questions, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Excusing the witness?
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Agree? Do you agree to excuse the
witness?
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, we do.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. You're
excused.
Next.
MR. HARTZLER: Jeff Smith. Mr. Goelman will question
him.
(Jefferson Smith affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Jefferson Neil Smith, S-M-I-T-H.
Ralph Cayton - Cross
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Smith.
A. Good morning.
Q. Where are you from?
A. Jackson, Mississippi.
Q. And what do you do in Jackson?
A. I'm installation and investigator with LDDS/Worldcom.
Q. What kind of company is LDDS/Worldcom?
A. It is a telecommunications provider.
Q. About how big is it?
A. It's -- we cover the whole United States and international
traffic, also.
Q. And were you formerly an investigator for the same company?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was one of your responsibilities as investigator responding
to subpoenas?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. In the course of its business, does LDDS/Worldcom obtain
information about its subscribers?
A. Yes, sir, we do.
Q. And does that information include the name of the listed
subscriber and the physical address of the telephone?
A. Yes, sir.
Jefferson Smith - Direct
Q. Why does LDDS need that information?
A. It's for billing purposes.
Q. I'm going to ask you to pick up Government Exhibit 520 and
turn to pages 139 to 140.
Do you recognize those as records that LDDS kept in
its ordinary course of business?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, I move to admit
conditionally these two pages of Exhibit 1 -- 520.
THE COURT: They will be received conditionally
subject to the continuing reservation -- or objection.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Mr. Smith, as part of its business, does LDDS resell long
distance service to other smaller companies?
A. Yes.
Q. And is Pacific Bell one of those smaller companies?
A. Pacific Communications?
Q. Pacific Communications.
A. Yes.
Q. What kind of information is retained so that LDDS can bill
its customers?
A. Depending on the contract with the customer itself, we --
we'll do the billing as far as all the calls and length of
calls for their purpose.
Q. And will this information include the date, time, duration
Jefferson Smith - Direct
of call, what the number called was?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Ask you to turn to Government Exhibit 578. It should be --
actually, do we have --
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, may I approach?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. You're being handed Government Exhibit 578.
You may take a moment to look at it and tell me if you
recognize that.
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. What is it?
A. This is a search card for all calls originating from a
particular number.
Q. And is that a business record of LDDS/Worldcom?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Something that is maintained in the regular course of
business?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, we move to admit Government
Exhibit 578.
THE COURT: Was this for a particular date?
MR. GOELMAN: It covers a range of dates, your Honor.
We're only going to deal with one particular phone call
reflected in these records.
Jefferson Smith - Direct
THE COURT: All right. Well, again, we'll admit it
subject to connecting up and over the continuing objection.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Could you please turn to the eighth page of this record.
Did you get there, Mr. Smith?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What particular phone number does this record relate
to?
A. This is the ANI total for (602)757-9154.
Q. You said the ANI?
A. Yes.
Q. What does ANI mean?
A. It's the "automatic number identifier" where the call
originated from.
Q. The number that the call was made from?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: May I publish, your Honor?
THE COURT: Well, why?
MR. GOELMAN: Just to illustrate the specifics of one
particular phone call that's made, the date, the time.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. See about halfway down where it says 11-14-94, sir?
A. On page 8?
Jefferson Smith - Direct
Q. Still on page 8, yes.
A. No, I don't --
Q. You can also look on the screen that's underneath the
witness stand there.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you please describe the phone call that this record is
relating to as far as date, time, and what the different fields
of information mean.
A. It's 11-14 of '94 at 10:46 p.m. It was a call that was
placed.
Q. Sure it was p.m., Mr. Smith?
MS. RAMSEY: Your Honor, can I have just a moment with
Mr. Goelman regarding this exhibit?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: It's a.m., I think.
THE COURT: Just wait a minute.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, it's actually page 9.
THE COURT: Is that what we're looking at, page 9?
MR. GOELMAN: That is what we're looking at, what
we've been looking at.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Getting back to that call, Mr. Smith, you said it was
10:46 a.m.?
A. Yes, sir, it is. I misread it.
Jefferson Smith - Direct
Q. It was made from (602)757-9154 to what number?
A. A number in Lockport, No. (716)434-8992.
Q. Can you tell how long the call lasted?
A. Yes, sir. That was approximately 2.9 minutes.
Q. And you see where it says .30 over in that last column
under "Amount"?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What does that mean exactly? Who -- what does that mean as
far as the cost of the call goes?
A. That would be the cost of the call to the Pacific
Communications Company.
Q. Okay. But not necessarily to the person making the phone
call?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know from this record who made that phone call,
Mr. Smith?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know from this record who received it?
A. No, sir.
MR. GOELMAN: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. From the information that you have provided the Government,
Jefferson Smith - Cross
do you know who the subscriber of this number is, from this
information?
A. On the ANI or the terminating number?
Q. Either one.
A. Just Pacific Communications. I know that they are the
owner of that number.
Q. All right. And do you know whether or not Timothy McVeigh
ever made or received a phone call from any of the records that
you have provided to the Government?
A. No, ma'am.
MS. RAMSEY: No further questions. Your Honor.
THE COURT: I take it he's excused.
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Deborah Revie. Ms. Behenna will
question.
(Deborah Revie affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Deborah J. Revie, R-E-V-I-E.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Deborah Revie - Direct
Q. Are you employed?
A. I am.
Q. Where are you employed?
A. At US West Communications.
Q. What do you do for US West Communications?
A. I'm the custodian of records.
Q. And how long have you been in that position?
A. Since 1984.
Q. Are you familiar with the subscriber records kept by US
West?
A. I am.
Q. Let me have you look at Government's Exhibit 520, pages 415
through 430. Can you identify those records?
A. Yes.
Q. What are they?
A. They are subscriber records of US West Communications.
Q. Why does US West Communications keep subscriber records?
A. To bill customers, to be aware of where the service is
located and what type of service they are provided with.
Q. Is that subscriber information recorded at the time the
customer establishes service with US West?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And it's the regular practice of US West to make these kind
of records, subscriber records?
A. Yes, it is.
Deborah Revie - Direct
Q. And those records are kept in the ordinary course of
business?
A. They are.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, we would move for the
admission of pages 415 through 450 of Exhibit 520.
THE COURT: Admitted conditionally with the same
objection.
MS. BEHENNA: Thank you.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Are you familiar with a type of phone record called an AMA
record?
A. I am.
Q. Can you explain what that is?
A. They are the records that are kept when a call is generated
that are to produce billing.
Q. Let me have you look at Government's Exhibit 521, pages 308
and 308A.
A. Okay.
Q. Can you identify that?
A. They are copies of an AMA.
Q. Why does US West keep AMA records?
A. They are what are generated so that we can produce bills
for the carriers and for the customer.
Q. And again, a record is made -- an AMA record is made of a
phone call when that phone call is placed?
Deborah Revie - Direct
A. That's correct.
Q. And it's a regular practice of US West to make these kind
of records?
A. It is.
Q. And they are kept in the ordinary course of business?
A. Yes.
MS. BEHENNA: Again, your Honor, we would move the
admission of pages 308, 308A of Government's Exhibit 521.
THE COURT: They are received conditionally, as well,
with the reservation of objection.
MS. BEHENNA: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. There's no way to tell from the records that you've just
gone over who placed the call?
A. That's correct.
Q. Or who received the call?
A. Correct.
Q. There's no indication as to who -- whether Terry Nichols
made any of those calls or received any of those calls?
A. Correct.
Q. Or whether the defendant in this case?
A. Correct.
MS. BEHENNA: Thank you, your Honor. That's all we
have.
THE COURT: Ms. Ramsey?
Deborah Revie - Cross
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. And you can't tell us whether Timothy McVeigh ever made or
received any of the phone calls that you have provided the
information to the Government?
A. That's correct.
MS. RAMSEY: No further questions.
No objection to her being excused.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. You are
excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. HARTZLER: Call Frank Dottle.
(Frank Dottle affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Frank Dottle, D-O-T-T-L-E.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Dottle.
A. Good morning.
Q. You can face me. Mr. Dottle, you're employed by a
telecommunications company called ENMR; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Frank Dottle - Direct
Q. And where are your offices located?
A. Clovis, New Mexico.
Q. Did your company own and operate a pay phone at the Yucca
Motel near Logan, New Mexico, prior to March 1996?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did your company make and keep records of telephone calls
from that pay phone?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Prior to your appearance -- you're familiar with those
records?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Prior to your appearance, did I ask you to review pages 73,
74 and 120 from Government group Exhibit 520, which is in front
of you? Did you look at those previously and will you look at
them now? 520.
MS. RAMSEY: What were those pages again, please?
THE COURT: 73, 74, and 120 was it?
MR. HARTZLER: 521. Is he looking at 520?
THE COURT: We're looking in Exhibit 520 for pages 73
and 74?
MR. HARTZLER: That is correct.
THE COURT: And 120.
MR. HARTZLER: 120 is in Exhibit 521.
THE COURT: Oh.
MR. HARTZLER: Pardon me.
Frank Dottle - Direct
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: I have those.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Are those records of your company?
A. 73 and 74 -- no.
Q. Look in Government Exhibit 521.
A. Okay. I've got the wrong book.
Q. It was not your fault, Mr. Dottle. It was mine.
A. Yes.
Q. And page 120 in Government Exhibit 520.
A. Yes. Those are our records.
MR. HARTZLER: I move the admission conditionally of
Government Exhibit -- or of page 120 in 520 and 73 and 74 in
Government Exhibit 521.
THE COURT: They are received conditionally with the
continuing objection.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Mr. Dottle, those records reflect that the telephone number
at the pay phone at the Yucca Motel near Logan, New Mexico, is
(505)487-9916; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And they reflect a telephone call that was made to an 800
number, (800)99 -- (800)793-3377, on December 13, 1994; is that
right?
A. Yes.
Frank Dottle - Direct
Q. Do you have any idea who placed that call?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you have any idea who received the call?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any idea what the contents of the call were?
A. No.
MR. HARTZLER: Nothing further.
THE COURT: Ms. Ramsey?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Did you only provide the three pages of information to the
Government that you have been asked to identify here today?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. All right. And you cannot tell us whether Timothy McVeigh
made or received a call at the Yucca Motel, can you?
A. No, ma'am, I cannot.
MS. RAMSEY: No further questions, and no objection to
his being excused.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. You are
excused.
Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Bruce Wells. Mr. Goelman will
question.
(Bruce Wells affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you state your full name
for the record and spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Bruce Alexander Wells. Last name is
spelled W-e-l-l-s.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Wells.
A. Good morning.
Q. Where do you work?
A. I work for MCI Telecommunications in Dallas, Texas.
Q. What do you do there?
A. I am currently the senior manager of the operational
support group for new product development.
Q. How long have you worked for MCI?
A. 14 years.
Q. Are you familiar with the different kinds of records that
MCI keeps when it sells long distance?
A. Very much.
Q. Ask you to turn to Government Exhibit 521, pages 78 to 110.
You don't have to read each one of them. Just tell me if
you've reviewed those particular records before. Are they
records that we asked you to review before coming to court
today?
Bruce Wells - Direct
A. Yes, they are.
Q. And do you recognize these as business records that MCI
made and kept in the ordinary course of its business?
A. Yes, they are.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit with the same conditions,
your Honor.
THE COURT: Received with reserved objection.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Do these records all pertain to a particular 800 number?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. And can you read what that number is, please.
A. It's (800)793-3377.
Q. From these records, Mr. Wells, do you have any idea who
made or received any of the calls reflected therein?
A. No, sir. Certainly, a customer of ours received them, but
I have no idea who made them.
Q. And do you have any idea which customer received them or
who actually picked up the phone?
A. No.
MR. GOELMAN: Nothing further, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. And you cannot tell us today from the records that you have
provided who placed the call; correct?
A. That's correct.
Bruce Wells - Cross
Q. And as Mr. Goelman asked you, you cannot tell who received
the call?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you cannot tell us today that Timothy McVeigh ever
received or placed any of the phone calls in the records that
you have provided to the Government; correct?
A. That's correct.
MS. RAMSEY: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Excused by --
MS. RAMSEY: No objection.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Pat Sain. Mr. Mackey will question.
(Patricia Sain affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Patricia S. Sain, S-a-i-n.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Good morning, Mrs. Sain.
A. Good morning.
Q. Would you tell the jury where you work, please.
A. I work for Sprint United Telephone Company, also known as
Sprint Western Operations.
Patricia Sain - Direct
Q. How long have you worked there?
A. 25 1/2 years.
Q. And where is your place of business?
A. Overland Park, Kansas.
Q. And what did you -- geographical area does Sprint cover?
A. My section of Sprint covers Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska,
Minnesota, Wyoming, Texas, Las Vegas, Washington and Oregon.
Q. I might ask you just about really one place, Junction City,
Kansas. Do you cover there?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. All right. Mrs. Sain, before coming to court today, did
you have an opportunity to review the contents of Exhibits
before you, notebooks 520 and 521?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you find on examination what you recognized from 25
years of service to be the business records of your employer?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. I want to turn your attention first to Exhibit 520; and
specifically, did you look at the records that appear on pages
319 through 403? That's 319 through 403 in Government Exhibit
520. 520.
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Are you satisfied those are the same records that you
looked at before coming to court today?
A. Yes, sir.
Patricia Sain - Direct
Q. All right. And do they consist of subscriber records?
A. Yes.
Q. Created and maintained in the ordinary course of your
employer's business?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we would move to add those
Exhibit pages 319 through 403 contained in Exhibit 520.
THE COURT: They are received conditionally with the
same continuing objection.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mrs. Sain, based on your previous examination, do those
pages include the phone number and location for a pay phone at
the Kansas City airport?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. And do those pages also include the number and location of
a phone subscribed to a Dreamland Motel in Junction City?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. And do they also include the phone number and location of a
company known as Bell Taxi --
A. Yes.
Q. -- in Junction City, Kansas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do they also include the phone number and location of a
number assigned to the Ryder Rental on Golden Bell --
Goldenbelt Boulevard in Junction City?
Patricia Sain - Direct
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And finally, do they also include the number and location
of a pay phone at J & K Bus Depot in Junction City, Kansas?
A. Yes, sir, they do.
Q. Turn our attention, now, Mrs. Sain, to 521, the second
large white notebook before you.
Did you see the contents of Exhibits 126 -- that is,
pages 126 through 307 -- before coming to court?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you satisfy yourself then and now that they are the
business records of your employer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. As a general matter, do they describe and -- the kind of
information your employer keeps concerning billing activity or
telephone activity?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. MACKEY: I would move to admit those pages, 126
through 307, of Exhibit 521.
THE COURT: They are also received conditionally with
the continuing objection.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Ms. Sain, I've got a couple of other additional exhibits
for you, if you don't mind, in the accordion folder.
A. Yes, sir.
Patricia Sain - Direct
Q. Thanks. Take a look at Exhibit 533 and tell his Honor and
the jury what that document appears to be.
A. This is a page from a telephone book for United Telephone
Company of Kansas, at Junction City, Kansas.
Q. And does it contain the page that would have been current
in April of 1995?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Listing -- listing the numbers for Ryder Rentals?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. MACKEY: I would move to admit Government Exhibit
533.
MS. RAMSEY: Your Honor, we would make the same
objection to relevancy at this time.
THE COURT: Overruled and received. 533.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. In the Yellow Pages distributed by your employer in
Junction City, Kansas, in April of 1995, was there a listing
for a Ryder rental agency on Goldenbelt Boulevard in Junction
City?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. With the benefit of that or any other document, what was
the number for that Ryder rental agency in Junction City?
A. For the Ryder rental agency? I'm sorry?
Q. On Goldenbelt Boulevard.
A. 238-8534.
Patricia Sain - Direct
Q. Thank you. Turn now, Mrs. Sain, to Exhibit 577.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recognize what that is?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And tell his Honor and the jury what this is.
A. This is a subscriber listing for Hunam, which is a Chinese
restaurant in Junction City, Kansas.
Q. You know that from the record and because you've also
visited there?
A. I've seen the record and I've also visited there.
Q. All right. Mrs. Sain, does that represent a business
record of your employer?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Does it identify the phone number for the Hunam Palace in
Junction City, Kansas, as it existed in April of 1995?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. MACKEY: I would move to admit Government Exhibit
577.
MS. RAMSEY: Same objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled. Received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. As part of your examination of records in connection with
this case, Mrs. Sain, did you look to identify whether there
were any phone listings in the white pages in Junction City for
Elliott's Body Shop?
Patricia Sain - Direct
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And did you identify two such numbers listed in the phone
book?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What are those numbers, if you know?
Let me turn your attention. I can help you out. I'm
sorry.
A. Okay. That's all right.
Q. Let's go to Exhibit 526.
A. Okay.
Q. I'm sorry. 580. That's my fault. Pages 2 and 3.
A. Okay.
Q. By examining the contents of 580, pages 2 and 3, can you
identify the phone numbers that were listed in the white pages
for Elliott's Body Shop in April of 1995?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Let me ask you first, is Government Exhibit 580 a business
record of your employer?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
MR. MACKEY: I would move to admit 580.
MS. RAMSEY: Same objection.
THE COURT: Overruled. Received 580.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Tell the jury the two phone numbers that one could call to
call Elliott's Body Shop in April of '95 based on your phone
Patricia Sain - Direct
book.
A. 238-2425 and 238-7103.
Q. Ms. Sain, keeping our attention for a moment at Exhibit
580, tell the jury what page 2 consists of. What information
have you captured on page 2 of Exhibit 580?
A. Page 2 consists of the telephone calls placed to the body
shop on April 14, 1995, to number 238-2425.
Q. Okay. How many phone calls went into Elliott's Body Shop
on that phone line on Friday, April 14?
A. Five.
Q. All right.
A. Five telephone calls.
Q. Turn now to page 3 and tell the jury what information is
captured on that page of that document, page 580.
A. This was a telephone call that was placed from a coin phone
in Junction City, Kansas, to the body shop, No. 238-7103.
Q. And how many phone calls, according to your records, went
into Elliott's Body Shop on that line on Friday, April 14,
1995?
A. One.
Q. At what time?
A. 8:44 in the morning.
Q. And how long did that phone call last, according to your
records?
A. 52 seconds.
Patricia Sain - Direct
Q. Let's turn our attention back finally, Mrs. Sain, to two
other exhibits, 525 and 526. Do you have those in front of
you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. As part of your preparation for testimony, did you research
the records of your employer to identify how many phone calls
were made to 800 numbers from the J & K Bus Depot pay phone
previously identified?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that information captured on Exhibit 525?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
MR. MACKEY: I would move to admit Government Exhibit
525.
MS. RAMSEY: Same --
THE COURT: This is with respect to a particular date?
MR. MACKEY: I'm sorry, your Honor.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Does it capture the information only as to April 14?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor.
MS. RAMSEY: Same objection.
THE COURT: Overruled, received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Would you tell the jury what information you learned by
researching the activity for 800 number calls placed from --
Patricia Sain - Direct
from that J & K Bus Depot?
A. There were four calls placed from the J & K No. 762-9765.
Two were placed to an 800 number, 793-3377. One was placed to
(800)225-5288, and one was placed to (031)297-8667.
Q. So there are four phone calls listed on that record?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Two of them are to the same 800 number?
A. Yes, sir. (800)793-3377.
Q. Based on the record, when did the first phone call to that
800 number take place at J & K Bus Depot?
A. At 9:52:05 in the morning.
Q. And when did the second phone call to the same 800 number
take place at the J & K Bus Depot pay phone?
A. At 9:54:07.
Q. Finally, Mrs. Sain, Exhibit 526, please. And tell his
Honor and the jury, generally speaking, what information is
captured in that exhibit.
A. This exhibit contains two telephone calls which were
received at 238-8534 on April 14, 1995.
Q. And is that the same number previously identified as that
listed in the Yellow Pages for Ryder rental in Junction City on
Goldenbelt Boulevard?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And how many -- excuse me. Is that information captured as
part of your business records?
Patricia Sain - Direct
A. Yes, it is.
MR. MACKEY: I would move to admit Exhibit 526.
MS. RAMSEY: Same objection.
THE COURT: Objection overruled. 526 received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Again, this is only as to April 14, 1995; is that right?
A. Yes -- yes, sir.
Q. According to the research you've done and the record that
you have identified, how many phone calls came into Ryder
Rental in Junction City on Goldenbelt Boulevard on Friday,
April 14?
A. Two.
Q. When was the first?
A. 9:54:35.
Q. And when was the second?
A. I'm sorry?
Q. When was the second?
A. And 1441:48.
Q. The first phone call that was dialed into the Ryder
company, how long did that phone call last?
A. 7 minutes 34 seconds -- 7 minutes 34 5/10 seconds.
MR. MACKEY: I think that's all I have, your Honor.
Thank you.
MS. RAMSEY: Your Honor, I expect to ask her some
questions. Could we perhaps take a break at this time?
THE COURT: Well, how long will you take?
MS. RAMSEY: Probably take about ten minutes, I would
think.
THE COURT: All right. Well, you can step down now,
and we'll take a recess.
THE WITNESS: All right. Thank you.
THE COURT: And have you back in about 20 minutes.
Members of the jury, I'm sure -- I'm sure with your
adrenaline levels as they are from this exciting testimony,
you'll want to take a break now, so we'll recess for 20 minutes
with the usual cautions, of course, of not discussing anything
about the case. You're excused 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 10:28 a.m.)
THE COURT: Okay. We'll recess.
(Recess at 10:28 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 10:49 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 10:49 a.m.)
THE COURT: Ms. Sain, if you'll resume the stand.
Ms. Ramsey, you may inquire.
MS. RAMSEY: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. You received a subpoena on or about April 20 of 1995 with
regard to the call details placed from (913)238-8534,
Pat Sain - Cross
(913)238-2425 and 7103; is that correct?
A. I would think so. I'd have to see it.
Q. And the dates of April 14 and 15?
A. Could I see it to see? We've gotten a lot.
Q. I understand.
A. Thank you.
Yes.
Q. Is that your initial contact with the Federal Government
with regard to the phone calls on April 14 and 15?
A. I would think so, yes.
Q. And how many times have you met with the Government with
regard to these particular days of phone calls?
A. Twice.
Q. Okay. And was that on or about April 20 for the first
time?
A. Yes, I think so.
Q. And when was the second time?
A. Monday night.
Q. All right. Now, these calls are in what community?
A. Junction City, Kansas.
Q. All right. And is Fort Riley military post, I believe, in
Junction City?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. All right. Now, you have prepared a report, did you not,
to Sid Younger with regard to the two phone calls that you
Pat Sain - Cross
discussed earlier?
A. A report?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. I may have responded to a letter.
Q. Okay. And did you tell him that on 4-14 of '95 at 8:44 a
number or a phone call was placed from (913)762-9638 to
(913)238-7103?
A. I don't know. Could I see the document?
Q. Yes.
A. Thank you.
Q. That's the first highlight.
A. Okay.
Q. And is there a second number that is highlighted on that?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And what is that?
A. 238-2425.
Q. And what time?
A. 1423.
Q. And are those the two calls that you testified about on
direct examination?
A. These calls are from a different printout.
Q. But are they the same calls?
A. Can I look at the exhibit?
Q. Sure.
A. Thank you.
Pat Sain - Cross
No.
Q. And who owns the terminating call -- terminating numbers on
those calls?
A. The terminating numbers?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't know who the (913)922 would be.
Q. All right. And who owns the (913)238-7103?
A. Elliott's Body Shop.
Q. And is that also reflected at the -- I believe the 1426
time that you discussed earlier on direct examination? There
were two calls you said went into Elliott's Body Shop?
A. There were several calls that went into Elliott's Body
Shop. The 7103 call is on here.
Q. And what was the time of the second call?
A. The second call on here -- there was no second call to
7103.
Q. Okay. And what was the number of the second call that you
discussed on direct examination?
A. You're talking about 2425?
Q. I'm asking you. I don't know.
A. No, I'm asking you --
Q. You testified that there was one call at approximately 8:41
and then one call at 1446 something.
1441:48.
A. That call was not to 2425.
Pat Sain - Cross
Q. Where was that to?
A. 8534.
Q. And who owns that number?
A. Ryder Rental.
Q. And where was that from?
A. A coin phone in Junction City.
Q. All right. Now, is that coin phone that you're talking
about in Junction City reflected on page 3 of Exhibit 580 that
was introduced into evidence?
A. Not on page 3.
Q. All right. What's reflected on page 3?
A. A call to 7103.
Q. And can you tell me where that was from?
A. The call to 7103?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. It was to 76 -- it was from -- excuse me -- 762-9638.
Q. 9638?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Where that is on 580? What page that is on where you have
that number?
A. It would be on page 3.
Q. Looking at page 2, can you tell me what number does that
have -- that is from?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. All right. Can you only determine that that was a 762
Pat Sain - Cross
prefix?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. How many prefixes are there in Junction City?
A. Approximately five, I think, unless they have a new one I'm
not aware of. There may be six.
Q. Can you tell me that the 844 call -- now I'm looking at the
page that I gave you. Is your report to Sid Younger -- your
letter to Sid Younger, (913)762-9638: Is that from actually
Fort Riley, as opposed to just a toll or a coin number?
A. I'd have to look at the listing for 9638 to determine where
it was. I know it's a telephone number in Junction City, but
I'd have to look at the listing and see where it's from.
Q. You can tell us that that is not from the pay phone?
A. It may be from a pay phone. I don't know.
Q. Not from the pay phone?
A. Which pay phone?
Q. The pay phone that you're saying is from the bus depot,
(913)762-9765.
A. I do not show that 9765 reflected on 580.
Q. Okay. Fine. Now, you cannot tell whether -- or can you
tell from these records whether phone calls are long distance
calls or whether they are local calls?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. Can you tell particularly from that pay phone record that
you have?
Pat Sain - Cross
A. Now, which one are we talking about?
Q. The pay phone at the bus depot.
A. The bus depot is not on these records.
Q. Anywhere?
A. Are we talking about 9765?
Q. Talking about -- yes.
A. No.
Yes, I'm sorry. It's on a different -- it's on 525.
Q. Okay. Can you tell me the calls that were placed from that
number, whether they were to a long distance number or whether
they were to across town?
A. I can tell that 9765 placed four calls to a long distance
number.
Q. Okay. And can you tell me for certain that there was a
number -- there was a call from that pay phone to a number at
the Ryder rental truck or Elliott's Body Shop?
A. Not on this printout, I cannot.
MS. RAMSEY: Okay. If I might have a moment, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Can you prove that any phone calls went to Elliott's Body
Shop from any of the printouts that you generated?
A. Not on these printouts. I can show that two calls went to
the Ryder Rental.
Pat Sain - Cross
Q. But you can't tell me where they're from?
A. No.
MS. RAMSEY: Nothing further.
No objection to her being excused.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Ms. Sain, look at Exhibit 525, please.
A. All right.
Q. Do you have that in front of you?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's a record you testified that shows calls from the
J & K Bus Depot?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When Sprint captures phone information, someone dials it,
what number do they record?
A. They record the originating number and the terminating
number or the number the call was placed to.
Q. So if a person had an 800 number that they would enter
first, is that the information that Sprint would record?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is that the information reflected on 525?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. If that caller then dials in the destination number they
truly want to call, does Sprint record that?
Pat Sain - Redirect
A. The only time we would record that number is if the call
terminated in our area. And it would be on a different
printout. It would be on a terminating call.
Q. So Sprint doesn't have a record that would show both the
800 number and the destination number?
A. Not -- not with this record, no, sir.
Q. So you'd have to go to the company that kept the records
for that 800 card?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. To get that information?
A. Yes, sir, I would.
Q. You're better at numbers than I am, but I want to see if I
got it straight. There are three phone lines that go into a
business that has the same address at 1430 Goldenbelt Boulevard
in Junction City, Kansas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Two of those lines go to Elliott's Body Shop; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And a third and separate lines goes to the Ryder rental
agency at that same address?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Based on your research, you found a total of six phone
calls going into the body shop phone lines on Friday, April 14.
Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Pat Sain - Redirect
Q. And one of those six phone calls going to the body shop
lines happened at 8:44 in the morning?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they lasted 52 seconds?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then you looked at this third line, the Ryder lines, to
the activity there; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. That's what's called a reverse toll?
A. Right. We were asked to look at any calls terminating at
that number.
Q. And you found looking at the Ryder number that a call came
into the Ryder number Friday, April 14, at about 9:54 in the
morning?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. MACKEY: That's all I have, your Honor.
MS. RAMSEY: I just have one question, or a couple of
questions.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. But you cannot prove where that call came from. Is that
correct?
A. Not with my records, no.
Q. And would a call from the J & K Bus Depot to Elliott's Body
Pat Sain - Recross
Shop be a local call?
A. If it was dialed directly to the bus depot. If it went to
an 800 number or a credit card number, it would be a long
distance call.
Q. But they're both in Junction City; isn't that correct?
A. Yes.
MS. RAMSEY: Nothing further, your Honor.
MR. MACKEY: Nothing.
THE COURT: All right. I take it she's excused.
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, your Honor.
MR. MACKEY: Yes.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're now excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Nelda Nolan. Mr. Ryan will question.
(Nelda Nolan affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name, please.
THE WITNESS: Nelda Nolan, N-O-L-A-N.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Good morning.
A. Good morning.
Q. Could we ask you to speak up just a little bit?
Nelda Nolan - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. A little bit more.
A. Yes.
Q. And what do you do, Mrs. Nolan?
A. I'm a supervisor for Bell Atlantic.
Q. Where are they located?
A. In Baltimore, Maryland.
Q. And are you a records custodian for Bell Atlantic?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Did the FBI subpoena certain records from your company in
connection with this matter?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. What did they subpoena?
A. They subpoenaed subscriber information.
Q. Would you please turn to the booklet there that's marked
Exhibit 520 and turn to pages 40 and 41.
A. Yes.
Q. Would you identify those records, please.
A. Yes. Page 40 is a telephone number in Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania, and it was --
Q. Don't need to give the information. Just tell us what they
are.
Are these records from your company?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Both these two pages?
Nelda Nolan - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. They're business records?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. And are you the records custodian?
A. Yes.
Q. Were these records created and prepared in the ordinary
course of the business of Bell Atlantic?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. And are these records created within the computer of Bell
Atlantic at the same time the calls are made?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. All right. And these particular records: Are they
recorded at the time the customer provides the information or
work is done regarding these numbers?
A. Yes, they are.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would move the admission of
pages 40 and 41 from Exhibit 520.
MS. RAMSEY: Same objection.
THE COURT: Yes, they're received conditionally with
the same objection.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. These records are simply identifying within the records of
Bell Atlantic certain telephone numbers and associating them
with certain individuals or companies.
A. That's correct.
Nelda Nolan - Direct
MR. RYAN: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. You cannot tell who made any phone calls or received any
phone calls from the records that you have in front of you; is
that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. You cannot tell what the content of the conversation was;
is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you cannot tell whether Timothy McVeigh did or did not
place any phone calls or received any phone calls from the
numbers that you have in front of you.
A. That's correct.
MS. RAMSEY: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Excusing the witness?
MR. RYAN: Yes, your Honor.
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused. Thank
you.
MR. HARTZLER: Call Fran Murphy.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. HARTZLER: Mr. Goelman will question.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Francine Murphy affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Francine Murphy, M-U-R-P-H-Y.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning, Ms. Murphy.
A. Good morning.
Q. Where do you work?
A. Ameritech Corporate Security.
Q. Where is that located?
A. Cleveland, Ohio.
Q. What do you do for Ameritech?
A. I maintain records to -- for billing purposes and provide
them --
Q. I'm sorry.
A. I'm sorry. And provide them.
Q. How long have you worked at Ameritech?
A. 23 years.
Q. Are you familiar with subscriber records that Ameritech
keeps?
A. Yes, I am.
Francine Murphy - Direct
Q. Can you please pick up the binder that's labeled 520 in
front of you and turn to pages 37 to 39A. And tell me if
they're Ameritech subscriber records.
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Records that Ameritech kept routinely in its ordinary
course of business?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, move to admit pages 37 to
39A, Government's Exhibit 520.
THE COURT: Received conditionally with the same
objection.
MR. GOELMAN: I have nothing further.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Ms. Murphy, you cannot tell from the records that you have
in front of you who placed, who received a call, can you?
A. No.
Q. And you can't tell the content of the conversation?
A. No.
Q. And you cannot tell whether or not Mr. Timothy McVeigh ever
placed or received a phone call from any of the records that
you have in front of you?
A. No.
MS. RAMSEY: No further questions. No objection to
her being excused.
Francine Murphy - Cross
THE COURT: You may step down. You are excused.
Next?
MR. HARTZLER: John Hooper. Ms. Behenna will
question.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(John Hooper affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: John Lowell Hooper, H-O-O-P-E-R.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Are you employed, Mr. Hooper?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Where are you employed?
A. I'm employed with Century Telephone.
Q. How long have you worked there?
A. Approximately eight years.
Q. What is your job title with Century Telephone?
A. I'm the region customer service manager.
Q. What do you do as part of your job?
A. I'm in charge of all customer service functions, including
new orders, removals, billing and collection, retention of
John Hooper - Direct
records.
Q. Are you familiar with the subscriber records kept by
Century Telephone?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Let me have you look at Government's Exhibit 520, pages 50
through 57.
Can you identify those?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. What are they?
A. They are telephone records that was furnished from my
office.
Q. Do they have subscriber information on them?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. Why does Century Telephone keep subscriber information?
A. Well, for active customers, it's to keep track of their
account and for billing purposes.
Q. Is the subscriber information recorded at the time the
customer establishes service with Century Telephone?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And it's the regular practice of Century Telephone to keep
these records?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. They're made in the ordinary course of business?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Do the information pages 50 through 57 -- is that just
John Hooper - Direct
subscriber information? Is that right?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. There is no toll call information or long distance
information contained on any of those records?
A. No, there is not.
MS. BEHENNA: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Are you going to offer the pages?
MS. BEHENNA: Oh, yes, I would, your Honor. Sorry.
THE COURT: All right. Pages 50 through 57 of Exhibit
520 received conditionally with the same reserved objection.
You may cross.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. You cannot tell me who placed or received any phone calls,
can you?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. You cannot tell me the content of any conversation with
regard to the records that you have in front of you, can you?
A. No, I cannot.
Q. You cannot tell me whether Timothy did or did not receive
or make any phone calls from the records that you have in front
of you; is that correct?
A. No, I cannot.
MS. RAMSEY: No further questions.
THE COURT: Excusing the witness?
MR. RYAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Steve Sackrider. Mr. Ryan will
question.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Stephen Sackrider affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Stephen L. Sackrider, S-A-C-K-R-I-D-E-R.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Good morning.
A. Hi.
Q. Where do you work, Mr. Sackrider?
A. I work for Wamego Telephone Company in Wamego, Kansas.
Q. Where is that located?
A. It's 100 miles west of Kansas City, in northeast Kansas.
Q. And are you the records custodian for Wamego Telephone
Company?
A. I am.
Q. Did you bring certain records to the FBI pursuant to a
subpoena from your company?
Stephen Sackrider - Direct
A. I did.
Q. And would you please turn to Exhibit 520. It's in the
notebook there in front of you, pages 431 to 443.
A. Yeah.
Q. Are those business records of Wamego Telephone Company?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Tell us what they are generally.
A. The --
Q. Without specifics to the document itself, just what the
records consist of.
A. The one is the service order that has the information of a
customer that we keep in the computer. And the next is the --
next page has the actual bill that was sent to the customer on
that certain date.
Q. Do they contain information with respect to telephone
calls?
A. They -- yes, they do.
Q. Are these records kept in the ordinary course of the
business of Wamego Telephone Company?
A. They are.
Q. And are these records created contemporaneous with the
calls themselves?
A. The -- you'll have to repeat that.
Q. Yeah. Are the records that are kept within the computer of
Wamego Telephone Company -- does it record that information at
Stephen Sackrider - Direct
the time the calls are made?
A. The -- where this information is is in the billing system;
and the billing system is done -- these things are created as
customers are installed.
Q. Okay.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer pages 431 and --
to 443 of Exhibit 520.
THE COURT: With the continuing objection, the
exhibits are admitted conditionally.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. You don't know who made the calls?
A. No.
Q. You don't know who received the calls?
A. No.
Q. There is no video recording or tape recording of what was
discussed?
A. No.
Q. You don't know whether this defendant or any other person
made the calls or was involved in the calls.
A. No.
MR. RYAN: That's all, your Honor.
THE COURT: Ms. Ramsey?
MS. RAMSEY: No questions.
THE COURT: If you wonder why everybody is laughing,
it's because Mr. Ryan trumped her card and asked the questions
she's been asking.
You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: We'll call Evelyn Sanchez. I think
with the next group of witnesses, we're finished with 521 --
group Exhibit 521.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Evelyn Sanchez affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Evelyn R. Sanchez, S-A-N-C-H-E-Z.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Good morning, Ms. Sanchez.
A. Good morning.
Q. Please tell us where you work.
A. Sprint Telephone Company, Las Vegas, Nevada.
Q. What are your responsibilities there?
A. I -- custodian of records.
Q. Could you look at the exhibit in front of you, the binder
that's marked Government's Exhibit 521, and review pages 297 to
312.
Evelyn Sanchez - Direct
I said 521. I keep getting this number wrong. It's
520.
A. Yes, that's correct.
297 to which? I'm sorry.
Q. 312.
A. Okay.
Q. Are those the same records that you previously had an
opportunity to review?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what are they?
A. They're subscriber records for our company.
Q. And those records are created at the time that you take on
a new subscriber; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And they're maintained in the ordinary course of your
business?
A. That's correct.
MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, I move the admission of
pages 297 of 312 of Government's Exhibit 520.
THE COURT: They're received conditionally with the
continuing objection.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Ms. Sanchez, those are largely subscriber records --
correct -- not reflecting telephone detail except maybe in one
instance; is that right?
Evelyn Sanchez - Direct
A. That's correct.
Q. So they don't actually reflect telephone calls, do they?
A. No, sir.
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you. Nothing further.
THE COURT: All right.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. In the information that you have provided to the
Government, does it include any phone calls being made
whatsoever?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. It is only subscriber names and telephone numbers; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And is there any listing in that information for a Timothy
McVeigh?
A. May I look again?
Q. Sure.
A. No, ma'am.
MS. RAMSEY: No further questions, your Honor.
MR. HARTZLER: She may be excused. Thank you.
MS. RAMSEY: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. You're
excused.
Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Darrel Santos. Mr. Goelman will
question.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Darrel Santos affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Darrel Santos, S-A-N-T-O-S.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Santos.
A. Good morning.
Q. Where do you live?
A. In Danville, California.
Q. What do you do there?
A. I'm a special investigator for Pacific Bell Telephone
Company.
Q. What do you do as a special investigator?
A. I coordinate electronic investigations. I'm also a
custodian of records for Pacific Bell, and I investigate
electronic crimes against our company.
Q. How long have you worked for Pacific Bell?
A. 25 years.
Q. In those 25 years, did you get a chance to become familiar
Darrel Santos - Direct
with different subscriber information that Pacific Bell keeps?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When does Pacific Bell obtain information relevant to
subscriber name and physical location of telephone number?
A. As soon as the customer calls us to request telephone
service.
Q. Mr. Santos, can you pick up Government's Exhibit 520, turn
to pages 152 to 155.
A. Okay.
Q. Just quickly look at that and tell me if you recognize them
as Pacific Bell business records.
A. Yes, they are.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, we move to admit pages 152
to 155 of Government's Exhibit 520.
THE COURT: They're received conditionally with the
continuing objection.
MR. GOELMAN: I have nothing further. Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. What is this information that you provided?
A. These are telephone records, address and customer name off
certain telephone numbers.
Q. And what is the date?
A. The dates of these telephone records are -- some have been
established since 1985. Exhibit (sic) 153 was established in
Darrel Santos - Cross
'90. '54 has been with us through -- through '94. And Exhibit
(sic) 155 has been with us since '93.
Q. Are any of these Timothy McVeigh?
A. No, they're not.
Q. Do you only keep -- do you keep these kinds of records for
how long?
A. We keep these for six years.
Q. But you do not keep any call records for any longer than
six months; is that correct?
A. That's incorrect.
Q. How long do you keep those?
A. Six years.
Q. Also?
A. Yes.
Q. Didn't you respond to a subpoena saying that you don't have
any records from 1994?
A. I don't recall that.
MS. RAMSEY: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Excusing him?
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. You're
excused.
Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Barbara Richardson. Ms. Behenna will
question.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Barbara Richardson affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Barbara Richardson, R-I-C-H-A-R-D-S-O-N.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Ms. Richardson, are you employed?
A. Yes, I am. Yes.
Q. Where are you employed? I'm sorry.
A. Tri-County Telephone.
Q. How long have you worked there?
A. Since 1984.
Q. What do you do for Tri-County?
A. I'm a billing clerk.
Q. Are you familiar with the subscriber records and the
billing records and the service records of Tri-County
Telephone?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me have you look at Government's Exhibit 520, pages 404
through 414.
Are you able to identify those records?
A. Yes. These are Tri-County's telephone records, customers'
Barbara Richardson - Direct
records.
Q. Why does Tri-County keep subscriber information?
A. So that we know telephone number location of the customer,
so we can bill the customer, toll records, billing records.
Q. Is the subscriber information recorded at the time the
customer establishes service with Tri-County Telephone?
A. Yes.
Q. And it's a regular practice of Tri-County Telephone to make
such records?
A. Yes.
Q. And they're kept in the ordinary course of business?
A. Yes.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, I move for the admission of
pages 404 through 414 of Government's Exhibit 520.
THE COURT: Admitted conditionally with the continuing
objection.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Ms. Richardson, can I have you look at page 406.
Can you tell the jury where that pay phone was
located?
A. It is located in the town of Lincolnville, Kansas.
MS. BEHENNA: Thank you, your Honor. I have nothing
further.
THE COURT: Questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Barbara Richardson - Cross
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Where is Lincolnville, Kansas?
A. It's south of Herington, Kansas.
Q. Okay. And are the records that you furnished, pages 404
through 414, from just that pay phone?
A. No. They're from -- also from subscribers, telephone
subscribers.
Q. Are there telephone records, or only subscriber records?
Isn't page 411 a telephone record?
A. 411 is actually a customer's telephone bill. It's a
microfiche record.
Q. Right. Do you see any listing in your subscriber
information in these pages for Timothy McVeigh?
A. No, I do not.
Q. And can you tell me on the listings of the personal
subscriber, were any phone calls made to or from numbers by
Timothy McVeigh?
A. I would have no way of knowing that.
Q. Can you tell us the content of any conversation?
A. No.
MS. RAMSEY: No further questions.
No objection to her being excused.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. You are
excused.
Next?
MR. HARTZLER: Bertha Coffin. Mr. Goelman will
question.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Bertha Coffin affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Bertha L. Coffin, C-O-F-F-I-N.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning, ma'am.
Where do you live, Mrs. Coffin?
A. Council Grove, Kansas.
Q. What do you do there?
A. I'm president and general manager of Council Grove
Telephone Company.
Q. How long have you worked at Council Grove Telephone
Company?
A. Since 1947.
Q. And how big is Council Grove Telephone?
A. We have 2100 access lines.
Q. Did you recently start another business, Mrs. Coffin?
A. Yes.
Q. What kind?
Bertha Coffin - Direct
A. Wireless.
Q. And in addition to being president and general manager of
Council Grove Telephone, are you also a majority owner?
A. Yes.
Q. And records custodian?
A. Yes.
Q. And in your 50 years at Council Grove, are you familiar
with the kind of records you keep?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you keep records of subscriber names and the physical
location?
A. Yes.
Q. Of telephones?
I'm going to ask you to pick up the book labeled
Government's Exhibit 520.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Please turn to page 118.
Is that one of those business records that Council
Grove Telephone keeps?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you keep this in the regular course of your
business?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you personally respond to the Government's subpoena in
this case, ma'am?
Bertha Coffin - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. And do you remember whether or not this account was active
when this record was sent to us?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it active?
A. Yes.
Q. One final question --
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit page 118, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received conditionally, same continuing
objection.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Who is running Council Grove Telephone while you're up
here, ma'am?
A. My assistant general manager.
MR. GOELMAN: Nothing further.
THE COURT: Questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Ms. Coffin, this is a pay phone; isn't that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So there is no name attached to the subscriber information?
A. There is a name attached to the subscriber information.
Q. What is that name?
A. Pay Phone Concepts, Inc.
Q. All right. And you cannot tell us whether or not Timothy
Bertha Coffin - Cross
McVeigh ever made a phone call from this pay phone, can you?
A. I do not know who made calls from the pay phone.
MS. RAMSEY: No further questions, your Honor.
No objection to her being excused.
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You're excusing? All right.
You may step down. You are excused.
Next?
MR. HARTZLER: Ms. Fortner. Mr. Ryan will question.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Kathleen Fortner affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My name is Kathleen Fortner. That's F,
like in Frank, O-R-T-N-E-R.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Good morning. Are you employed?
A. Yes, I am, sir.
Q. By whom are you employed?
A. I'm employed by Alliant Communications, Lincoln, Nebraska.
Q. Are you the record custodian for your company?
A. I am, sir.
Q. Did the FBI subpoena a record from your company in
Kathleen Fortner - Direct
connection with this case?
A. They did.
Q. Would you please turn to Exhibit 520, page 141.
MS. RAMSEY: What page?
MR. RYAN: 141.
Do you have that?
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Do you have that?
A. I do, sir.
Q. Would you identify it generally?
A. This is a customer identification record from Alliant
Communications. It indicates when the customer applied for
telephone service, telephone number, who the services
subscriber is, the location of the telephone, any activity up
to the time these records were required to be given to the FBI.
Q. It doesn't contain any telephone calls?
A. No, sir.
Q. This just tells one -- what someone's telephone number is?
A. That's correct. Subscriber information.
Q. Is this a business record of your company?
A. It is, sir.
Q. Is it kept in the ordinary course of your business?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is this record created as your company performs work for
that particular customer?
Kathleen Fortner - Direct
A. That's correct, sir.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer page 141 of
Exhibit 520.
THE COURT: What's the name of your business?
THE WITNESS: Alliant Communications, formerly Lincoln
Telephone.
THE COURT: Oh, it was Lincoln Telephone.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Well, I'll receive it conditionally with
the same continuing objection.
Ms. Ramsey?
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. This isn't Mr. McVeigh's number, is it?
A. No, sir.
MS. RAMSEY: No questions.
THE COURT: Okay. You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Dianna Stamps.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Dianna Stamps affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
Dianna Stamps - Direct
THE WITNESS: Dianna Stamps, S-T-A-M-P-S.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Good morning, Ms. Stamps.
Can you tell us the name of the company where you're
employed.
A. Bell South Telecommunications.
Q. What are your responsibilities?
A. Compliance assistant, and the responsibilities are that we
comply to the subpoenas that come to Bell South.
Q. Does your company make and maintain records of subscribers?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you look at the binder in front of you that's marked
Government's Exhibit 520 and look specifically at pages 158 to
168.
A. Okay.
Q. You've had an opportunity to review those?
A. Yes.
Q. By the way, the current name of your company is different
than it used to be -- is that right -- or did you acquire
Southern Bell?
A. Used to be Southern Bell.
Q. Are those records for a period of time when the company was
named Southern Bell?
A. Yes.
Dianna Stamps - Direct
Q. And those are records which were created at the time the
information was received and are maintained in the ordinary
course of business?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, I move the admission of
pages 158 to 168 of Government's Exhibit 520.
THE COURT: All right. They're received conditionally
with the continuing objection.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Those records reflect subscriber names and the times in
which they had service; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And none of the subscribers were Timothy McVeigh, were
they?
A. No.
MR. HARTZLER: Nothing further.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Do you know who Mr. Davis is?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. Do you know who Mr. Davis is?
A. No, I don't.
MS. RAMSEY: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: And I take it South Central Bell was also
a previous name.
THE WITNESS: A part of it, yes.
THE COURT: You're excusing her, I assume.
MR. HARTZLER: Yes, we are.
MS. RAMSEY: Yes.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
MR. HARTZLER: Dennis Devoy. Mr. Goelman will
question.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Dennis Devoy affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you. Would you have a
seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Dennis Robert Devoy, D-E-V-O-Y.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Devoy.
A. Good morning.
Q. Where do you work?
A. Chariton Valley Telephone.
Q. What do you do for them?
A. I'm the comptroller.
Q. Did you receive a subpoena from the Government after the
Oklahoma City bombing, sir?
A. Yes, I did.
Dennis Devoy - Direct
Q. And that subpoena requested subscriber information for the
telephone number (816)486-5505?
A. That's correct.
Q. And did you attempt to retrieve this information?
A. I did.
Q. What did you learn?
A. That that number has never been a working number in the
Ethel exchange, which is the 486 exchange.
Q. No one has ever subscribed to that number?
A. That's correct. The only numbers that have ever been
issued in that exchange have been in the 32- to 3400 range.
Q. And, Mr. Devoy, because no one has ever subscribed to this
number, does that mean this defendant nor anyone else ever
could have subscribed to that number?
A. Correct.
MR. GOELMAN: Nothing further.
MS. RAMSEY: No questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down.
Next?
MR. HARTZLER: David Ropiequet. Ms. Behenna will
question.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(David Ropiequet affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you. Have a seat.
David Ropiequet - Direct
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My name is David C. Ropiequet. Last
name is spelled R-O-P-I-E-Q-U-E-T.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Mr. Ropiequet, are you employed?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Where are you employed?
A. I'm employed with Consolidated Communications in Mattoon,
Illinois.
Q. How long have you worked for Consolidated?
A. 26 years.
Q. What do you do for Consolidated Communications?
A. I am presently the risk manager for Consolidated
Communications.
Q. Are you familiar with the subscriber records of
Consolidated Communication?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Let me have you look at pages 114 through 117 in
Government's Exhibit 520.
Can you identify those?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. What are they?
A. They are subscriber billing information records from
David Ropiequet - Direct
Consolidated Communications' database dealing with billing
information and also plant subscriber information.
Q. Is subscriber information recorded at the time the customer
establishes service with Consolidated Communication?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And it's the regular practice of Consolidated Communication
to keep such records?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And they're made in the ordinary course of business?
A. Yes.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, I move to admit pages 114
through 117 of Government's Exhibit 520.
THE COURT: They're admitted conditionally with the
reserved and continuing objection.
MS. BEHENNA: Thank you, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Who is the subscriber for this number?
A. The subscriber for this number is the Motel U.S. Grant.
Q. And if calls were placed from the U.S. Grant Motel to an
800 number, should those or should those not be recorded on
phone records?
A. Not on U.S. Grant Motel --
Q. They would not be?
David Ropiequet - Cross
A. They would not be, no.
Q. Would they be recorded anywhere?
A. They would be actually sent with the message and sent to
the -- to where the billing is established and billed from.
Q. I don't understand. Who would get the bill for the 800
number?
A. Whoever subscribes to that 800 number.
Q. So it would not necessarily be U.S. --
A. U.S. Grant Motel, no, it wouldn't.
Q. But there would not even be a record of an 800 call at the
U.S. Grant Motel; is that what you're saying?
A. At the motel, no. Not on their billing information, no.
Q. All right. And you don't -- never mind.
MS. RAMSEY: I have no further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: I'm just curious: Is U.S. Grant Motel in
Mattoon?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
THE COURT: Did Ulysses Simpson Grant have some
connection with Mattoon?
THE WITNESS: Not the motel but with Mattoon. He
mustered his first troops in Mattoon to head south.
THE COURT: Thank you. Irrelevant, but we appreciate
that bit of history.
You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Shari Stephens.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Shari Stephens affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Shari Stephens, S-T-E-P-H-E-N-S.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Good morning, Ms. Stephens.
Where are you currently employed?
A. Cellular One, Kansas City.
Q. And does Cellular One provide cellular service?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you maintain records of the numbers that are assigned to
Cellular customers?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the series of numbers that are assigned in the
Lawrence, Kansas, area?
A. Yes.
Q. What are those?
A. (913)766-0000 through 9999.
Q. Have all those numbers been assigned yet?
A. No, no. They've not all been assigned yet.
Q. Did you produce a record reflecting the -- a particular
Shari Stephens - Direct
telephone number in that area, (913)766-6088?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you look in the book in front of you at page 46.
A. Yes.
Q. That is a record that your company produces and maintains
in the ordinary course of its business?
A. Yes.
MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, I move the admission of 46
of group Exhibit 520.
THE COURT: Received conditionally with the same
objection.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. And does this record reflect that the number (913)766-6088
was not even assigned until June 30, 1995?
A. That's correct.
Q. And at that time, it was assigned to somebody whose name
has nothing whatsoever to do with this case. Is that fair?
A. That's correct.
MR. HARTZLER: No further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Can you tell me if that number was active from March 9 of
1993 and 6-30 of 1995?
A. At that time, the number had never been assigned.
Q. Never?
Shari Stephens - Cross
A. Never been assigned.
Q. It has just since been assigned. Is that correct?
A. Correct. June 30 of '95 was the first time it has ever
been assigned.
Q. All right. And I believe you were asked: That was not to
Timothy McVeigh?
A. That was not.
Q. And you do not have any knowledge of any connection between
this number and Timothy McVeigh; is that correct?
A. I have no knowledge.
MS. RAMSEY: No further questions, your Honor.
MR. HARTZLER: She may be excused.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Kelly Sutter. Mr. Goelman will
question.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand.
(Kelly Sutter affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Kelly Sutter, S-U-T-T-E-R.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning.
Kelly Sutter - Direct
A. Good morning.
Q. Where do you work?
A. AT&T Wireless Services.
Q. What do you do there?
A. I am the custodian of records for California, Nevada and
Hawaii.
Q. How long have you worked at AT&T Wireless?
A. Six years.
Q. Do you know the procedure that the company goes through
when someone wants to establish cellular service?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Will you please describe that briefly.
A. When a customer wants to establish service, they will go to
either our office or to one of our dealers. They fill out a
subscriber agreement and give some information on themselves.
We assign a telephone number, program the phone and then
activate the service.
Q. Is there -- what information does the subscriber or
potential subscriber have to provide in order to get service
established?
A. Name, address, Social Security number, driver's license
number. They show their photo ID, signature. If they want it
billed to a different address, then they give us a billing
address as well.
Q. Ms. Sutter, I'm going to ask you to turn to pages 47 to 49
Kelly Sutter - Direct
in that book in front of you.
THE COURT: 520? Exhibit 520?
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Page 47, the application that you were just describing?
A. Uh-huh. Yes.
Q. And after a customer fills it out, does AT&T Wireless keep
it in its formal course of business?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. What are the next two pages?
A. Page 48 is a page from an invoice dated November 21, 1994,
and page 49 is the first page of an invoice dated April 19,
1995.
Q. And do all these records reveal subscriber information?
A. Yes, they do.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, move to admit pages 47 to
49, Government's Exhibit 520.
THE COURT: On this index, I see a different entity
there.
THE WITNESS: Probably Cellular One.
THE COURT: Yes, it is.
THE WITNESS: It probably states Cellular One, what
AT&T Wireless formerly did business under the name of. We
became AT&T Wireless two years ago, so the records are under
the name Cellular One for that time frame.
Kelly Sutter - Direct
THE COURT: Thank you for the explanation.
The exhibits -- these pages are received
conditionally. Same objection.
MR. GOELMAN: I have nothing else, your Honor.
THE COURT: Ms. Ramsey.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Page 47 of the pages that you have is not an application by
or on behalf of Timothy McVeigh, is it?
A. No, it is not.
Q. That is for someone totally different; isn't that correct?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And I believe you said this was in Las Vegas?
A. Correct.
Q. According to the first page?
A. Yes, ma'am. I don't know if I stated that or not, but it
is in Las Vegas.
Q. Okay. And on page 48, those are actually listings of phone
calls -- is that correct -- incoming to a number?
A. I'm sorry. I didn't hear the question.
Q. Is page 48 a list of incoming phone calls?
A. Incoming and outgoing phone calls.
Q. And 49 is a bill; is that correct?
A. It's the first page of the billing invoice. It does not
show call records, just the summary.
Kelly Sutter - Cross
Q. And page 49 does not have anything to do with Timothy
McVeigh, does it?
A. No. It does not state his name.
Q. And you cannot tell me on page 48 who made a call, who
received a call, or the content of any conversation, can you?
A. No.
Q. And you cannot tell me whether or not Timothy McVeigh is
associated with page 48 in any of these calls, can you?
A. No.
MS. RAMSEY: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Excusing her, I assume.
MR. GOELMAN: Yes, your Honor.
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
MR. HARTZLER: Call Mr. Ty Rogers.
MS. RAMSEY: Your Honor, as to Mr. Rogers, we would
object -- make the same objection we made previously as far as
notice is concerned.
THE COURT: I take it the notice was for a records
keeper from this entity.
MR. HARTZLER: That's correct.
THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand.
(Ty Rogers affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your --
MR. HARTZLER: Could I have a moment, please.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: State your full name for the
record and spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My name is Ty, T-Y, Rogers, R-O-G-E-R-S.
THE COURT: Proceed, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you, your Honor.
Just to clarify for your benefit and Ms. Ramsey's, we
had notified that the records custodian for this company would
be Deanna Bache, B-A-C-H-E, who is now on vacation out of the
country; so this is a substitute records custodian for the same
company.
THE COURT: And the same records, I take it --
MR. HARTZLER: Of course, yes.
THE COURT: -- which notice was given for.
That's why I overruled the objection. Go ahead.
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Q. Mr. Rogers, where are you employed?
A. I work for AT&T Wireless Services.
Q. Did AT&T Wireless Services previously do work under the
name Cellular One?
Ty Rogers - Direct
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where are you located?
A. West Palm Beach, Florida.
Q. Do you take records of the company and produce them in
court?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Could I ask you to look at pages 42 through 46 in the
exhibit in front of you.
Do you see those?
A. Yes.
Q. Page 42, 43, 44 and 45 but not 46 are records of your
company?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Are those records -- those records provide subscriber
information?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. Which is created and maintained in the ordinary course of
your business; is that right?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Could you please --
MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, I move the admission of
pages 42, '3, '4 and 45 of group Exhibit 520.
THE COURT: All right. Received conditionally with
the continuing objection.
BY MR. HARTZLER:
Ty Rogers - Direct
Q. And could you look specifically at page 42. Is that in
front of you?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see that -- I believe it reflects that
No. (305)494-4806 was subscribed to by Patricia Davis between
11-13-92 and 11-2-94. Is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And then service was terminated for her on 11-2-94 and that
number was inactive then until it was assigned to Grace Wing on
2-4-95. Is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. None of these records reflect Mr. McVeigh's name. True?
A. No, they do not.
Q. And none of them reflect any individual telephone calls;
correct?
A. No, they do not.
MR. HARTZLER: I have nothing further.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Do you have any idea who Patricia Davis is?
A. No, ma'am, I do not.
MS. RAMSEY: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. You're excusing him?
MS. RAMSEY: Yes.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. HARTZLER: Bonnie Wiley. Mr. Goelman will
question.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Bonnie Wiley affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Bonnie Jo Wiley, W-I-L-E-Y.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning, Ms. Wiley.
A. Good morning.
Q. Where do you work?
A. I'm with AT&T.
Q. What do you do at AT&T?
A. I'm an investigations manager.
Q. How long have you been with the company?
A. Almost 26 years.
Q. In those 26 years, have you had a chance to become familiar
with the procedure that AT&T goes through when it assigns an
800 number?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And does it require assignees of that 800 number to provide
their name and address?
Bonnie Wiley - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Did you respond to a subpoena from the Government in this
case, ma'am?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Can you please turn to pages 1 to 3 in Government's Exhibit
520.
A. Okay.
Q. Do those three pages contain subscriber information from
AT&T 800 customers?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. And are those records kept in the ordinary course of AT&T's
business?
A. Yes, they are.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, we move to admit pages 1 to
3 of Government's Exhibit 520.
THE COURT: They're received conditionally with the
same objection to relevance reserved.
MS. RAMSEY: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Ms. Wiley, are 800 numbers free for callers?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Who pays for these calls?
A. The customer pays for the usage of the 800 numbers.
Q. But not the caller?
A. Not the caller. Correct.
Bonnie Wiley - Direct
Q. So is there any economic reason for someone to use a debit
card to dial an 800 number?
A. No, not that I would be aware of.
Q. And from these records, you don't have any idea, do you, of
whether or not this defendant made any calls to or from that
particular 800 number?
A. No, I do not.
MR. GOELMAN: Nothing further, your Honor.
MS. RAMSEY: No questions.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Next.
MR. HARTZLER: Gary Lynch, our last one.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Gary Lynch affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Gary A. Lynch, L-Y-N-C-H.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Lynch, where do you live?
A. Oklahoma City.
Q. And how long have you lived there?
Gary Lynch - Direct
A. 42 years.
Q. Where do you work?
A. I work for Southwestern Bell Corporation.
Q. Based there in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes.
Q. What's your job?
A. I'm a security manager.
Q. How long have you worked for Southwestern Bell in Oklahoma
City?
A. 23 years.
Q. In the course of those 23 years, have you become familiar
with a broad range of services offered by your employer?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Including the production and distribution of Yellow Pages?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. All right. Can you tell the jury a little bit about the
practices of Southwestern Bell as it existed in 1994 and '95
concerning the production and distribution of your Yellow
Pages?
A. Yellow Pages are produced through business customers that
subscribe to the Yellow Pages. They take ads out. Those books
are published on a yearly basis at different times throughout
the year.
Q. And in 1994 and '95, did Southwestern Bell publish and
distribute Yellow Pages in various cities in the state of
Gary Lynch - Direct
Kansas?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Now, Mr. Lynch, the law requires me sometimes to ask
obvious questions. Does the public use and rely upon the phone
books produced by Southwestern Bell?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. Turn your attention now, Mr. Lynch, to exhibits before you
in the accordion folder. You should find seven of them
beginning with Government's Exhibit 527. You've seen that
before coming to court?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And generally look at all of those for a moment.
All right.
A. Yes.
Q. For the record, have you examined Exhibits 527, 528, 529,
530, 531, 532, and 581?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And are each of those exhibits from Yellow Pages published
by your employer?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. And distributed in 1994 in the state of Kansas?
A. Yes, they were.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit each of
those exhibits.
MS. RAMSEY: We object as to relevancy.
Gary Lynch - Direct
THE COURT: You're seeking conditional admission at
this time?
MR. MACKEY: I am, your Honor.
THE COURT: They are received conditionally, subject
to connection, with the reservation of the objection on
relevance.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Lynch, tell the jury what the Yellow Pages is for
Exhibit 527.
A. This is a page out of 205 of the Wichita, Kansas,
directory.
Q. And does Exhibit 527 show a listing for chemical companies
that would have been distributed in Kansas in the fall of 1994?
A. Yes, it would have.
Q. Let's go to 528.
Is that a listing of hobby shops in the Yellow Pages
in the fall of 1994 in Kansas?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. 529: Is that a listing for racetracks distributed in the
fall of 1994 in Kansas?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. 530: Is that a listing for demolition contractors as
published and distributed in Kansas in the fall of '94?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. 531: Is that a listing for barrels as published and
Gary Lynch - Direct
distributed in Kansas in 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. 532: Is that a Yellow Pages from another Yellow -- another
phone book out of greater Kansas for barrels in the year 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. And finally, 581: Is that the Yellow Pages distributed in
and near Hutchinson, Kansas, in 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. Does it have a listing for racetracks?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. MACKEY: Nothing else, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. When you retrieved these exhibits that you have just
testified to, were these from any particular phone book?
A. Yes. '27, '28, '29, '30, '31 were from the Wichita,
Kansas, telephone book. 532 is from the Kansas City,
Kansas/Missouri, telephone book; and then Exhibit 581 is from
the Hutchinson, Kansas.
Q. Have these pages that you have provided actually been in a
phone book -- these particular pages themselves?
A. I verified these pages here with actual phone books and
Gary Lynch - Cross
verified the listings that they were exact.
Q. There had not been any markings, though, on these
particular pages to show that someone has looked at them and
circled a number or anything like that, is there?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. These came from your actual records, as opposed to coming
from an actual phone book; isn't that correct?
A. I do not know if these were xeroxed or torn out of a phone
book.
Q. Well, do they look like they were torn out of a phone book?
A. No, they look like they're xeroxed, Xerox copy.
Q. I want you to look at 527. While it does have a "Chemical"
listing, doesn't it also have a listing for "Chicken Dinners"?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And on 528, it also has a listing for "Hobbies," doesn't
it?
A. "Hobby" and "Model Construction Supplies, Retail."
Q. As well as "Hockey Clubs" and "Hogs"?
A. Yes, it does. It has -- not necessarily a listing for
"Hogs" but for hogs to see livestock dealers.
Q. And on 529, it also has a listing for "Racquetball
Equipment and Supplies"?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And "Radiators," doesn't it?
A. Yes.
Gary Lynch - Cross
Q. Which could be for a car, I would assume?
A. Yes.
Q. For Clark's Radiator Service at 351 South Laura?
MR. MACKEY: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
It's the whole page; right?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, sir.
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. You will agree that 530, 531 and 532 also list a lot of
other things other than what Mr. Mackey asked you about; isn't
that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
MS. RAMSEY: No further questions, your Honor.
MR. MACKEY: Nothing else.
THE COURT: Can't call any hogs from that --
THE WITNESS: No. No, sir, you can't.
MS. RAMSEY: We can order chicken dinners.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
Yes.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, the Government would offer
Exhibits 523 and 524, which are affidavits with business
records from the Philippine long distance company; and they are
in compliance with 18 U.S.C. Section 3505.
MS. RAMSEY: Same objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Relevance?
MS. RAMSEY: Yes.
THE COURT: They're received with the objection to
relevance, continuing objection. So they're received
conditionally.
What were the numbers again, please?
MR. RYAN: Government's Exhibit 523 and 524, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Well, can we go to lunch now?
MR. RYAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. We'll take the luncheon recess.
And I just am sure you understand, but just to make it
very clear to you, what we've done this morning is, as I was
talking about, foundational material, evidence; and conditional
admission means there have been objections to the relevance of
a lot of these documents; and when I admit them conditionally,
I mean subject to being connected up that makes them relevant.
So we have to do some of these things a step at a
time.
So that's what's been going on here, and that explains
what my rulings are.
Now we're excusing you for the usual luncheon period
of an hour and a half; and of course, please avoid discussion
of anything you've heard this morning and any other time in the
course of the trial, remembering to keep open minds and avoid
anything outside the evidence in the case which could in any
way influence you in deciding on these issues that are going to
be decided in this trial.
You're excused now for the luncheon recess, an hour
and a half.
(Jury out at 12:07 p.m.)
THE COURT: Okay. Recess. 1:38.
(Recess at 12:08 p.m.)
* * * * *
INDEX
Item Page
WITNESSES
Luule Suozzi
Direct Examination by Mr. Goelman
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Marshall Weldy
Direct Examination by Ms. Behenna
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Shirley Hiner
Direct Examination by Mr. Goelman
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Tamara Winkler
Direct Examination by Mr. Ryan
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
WITNESSES (continued)
Ralph Cayton
Direct Examination by Mr. Goelman
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Jefferson Smith
Direct Examination by Mr. Goelman
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Deborah Revie
Direct Examination by Ms. Behenna
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Frank Dottle
Direct Examination by Mr. Hartzler
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Bruce Wells
Direct Examination by Mr. Goelman
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Patricia Sain
Direct Examination by Mr. Mackey
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Redirect Examination by Mr. Mackey
Recross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Nelda Nolan
Direct Examination by Mr. Ryan
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
WITNESSES (continued)
Francine Murphy
Direct Examination by Mr. Goelman
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
John Hooper
Direct Examination by Ms. Behenna
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Stephen Sackrider
Direct Examination by Mr. Ryan
Evelyn Sanchez
Direct Examination by Mr. Hartzler
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Darrel Santos
Direct Examination by Mr. Goelman
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Barbara Richardson
Direct Examination by Ms. Behenna
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Bertha Coffin
Direct Examination by Mr. Goelman
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Kathleen Fortner
Direct Examination by Mr. Ryan
WITNESSES (continued)
Dianna Stamps
Direct Examination by Mr. Hartzler
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Dennis Devoy
Direct Examination by Mr. Goelman
David Ropiequet
Direct Examination by Ms. Behenna
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Shari Stephens
Direct Examination by Mr. Hartzler
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Kelly Sutter
Direct Examination by Mr. Goelman
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Ty Rogers
Direct Examination by Mr. Hartzler
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Bonnie Wiley
Direct Examination by Mr. Goelman
Gary Lynch
Direct Examination by Mr. Mackey
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS
Exhibit Offered Received Refused Reserved Withdrawn
202 7351 7352
243 7351 7352
520 pp. 142-151 7320 7320
520 pp. 121-138 7323 7324
520 pp. 4-36 7330 7330
520 pp. 169-296 7337 7337
520 pp. 60-113 7347 7347
520 pp. 139-140 7358 7358
520 pp. 415-450 7365 7365
520 p. 120 7369 7369
520 pp. 319-403 7375 7375
520 pp. 40-41 7396 7396
520 pp. 37-39A 7399 7399
520 pp. 50-57 7402 7402
520 pp. 431-443 7405 7405
520 pp. 297-312 7407 7407
520 pp. 152-155 7410 7410
520 pp. 404-414 7413 7413
520 p. 118 7417 7417
520 p. 141 7420 7420
520 pp. 158-168 7422 7422
520 pp. 114-117 7426 7426
520 p. 46 7429 7429
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS (continued)
Exhibit Offered Received Refused Reserved Withdrawn
520 pp. 47-49 7432 7433
520 pp. 42-45 7436 7436
520 pp. 1-3 7439 7439
521 p. 77 7319 7319
521 pp. 75-76 7325 7325
521 pp. 111-125 7339 7339
521 pp. 1-72 7346 7346
521 pp. 308-308A 7366 7366
521 pp. 73-74 7369 7369
521 pp. 78-110 7372 7372
521 pp. 126-307 7376 7376
523 - 524 7446 7447
525 7381 7381
526 7383 7383
527-532 7442 7443
533 7377 7377
574-576 7341 7341
577 7378 7378
578 7359 7360
579 7349 7349
580 7379 7379
581 7442 7443
* * * * *
REPORTERS' CERTIFICATE
We certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from
the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. Dated
at Denver, Colorado, this 7th day of May, 1997.
_______________________________
Paul Zuckerman
_______________________________
Bonnie Carpenter