OKC Bombing Trial Transcript - 05/06/1997 16:14 CDT/CST
05/06/1997
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH,
Defendant.
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REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury - Volume 80)
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Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 9:00 a.m., on the 6th day of May, 1997,
in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver, Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK M. RYAN, United States Attorney for the
Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400,
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
JOSEPH H. HARTZLER, SEAN CONNELLY, LARRY A. MACKEY,
BETH WILKINSON, SCOTT MENDELOFF, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, AITAN
GOELMAN, and VICKI BEHENNA, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
STEPHEN JONES, ROBERT NIGH, JR., and RANDALL COYNE,
Attorneys at Law, Jones, Wyatt & Roberts, 999 18th Street,
Suite 2460, Denver, Colorado, 80202; JERALYN MERRITT, 303 East
17th Avenue, Suite 400, Denver, Colorado, 80203; MANDY WELCH,
Attorney at Law, 412 Main, Suite 1150, Houston, Texas, 77002;
and CHERYL A. RAMSEY, Attorney at Law, Szlichta and Ramsey, 8
Main Place, Post Office Box 1206, Stillwater, Oklahoma, 74076,
appearing for Defendant McVeigh.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
THE COURT: Please be seated.
Good morning. Are we ready for the jury?
MR. HARTZLER: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Jury in at 9:00 a.m.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, good morning. You'll
recall that when we recessed yesterday afternoon, we were
hearing testimony from the witness Jennifer McVeigh. We'll
continue with her testimony this morning.
Ms. McVeigh, if you will resume the witness stand
under the oath earlier taken.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE COURT: Miss Wilkinson, you may resume your direct
examination.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
(Jennifer McVeigh was recalled to the stand.)
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, may I approach with the
remaining exhibits?
THE COURT: Yes.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Do you have all your exhibits up there, Ms. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Yesterday, we were talking about the photographs of
your brother's car. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. Before we go back to that, I'd like to go over one other
letter that you received in connection with handwriting. And
if you could look at Government's Exhibit No. 9.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you see that?
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that letter?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was that letter to?
A. It's to me.
Q. And do you recognize the handwriting in that letter?
A. It's Tim's.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we move in Government's
Exhibit No. 9.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, may I have just a moment to
find 9?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd make the same objections to
that exhibit as I made yesterday; namely, relevance, prejudice,
and 404(b).
THE COURT: Overruled. Received.
MS. WILKINSON: May I publish, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Ms. McVeigh, let's start at the top of this letter. You
said you recognize this as your brother's handwriting; is that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, up there in the right corner, do you see that date?
A. Yes.
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
Q. Can you read that for the jury.
A. It's the 20th of June.
Q. Do you know in what year you received this letter from your
brother?
A. It was early '95.
Q. June 1995, or June 1994?
MR. NIGH: I object as leading.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Why don't you take a minute to read the letter and see --
you can pull it out of the plastic and see if that refreshes
your recollection.
A. I think it was '94.
Q. Now, if you could start reading the beginning of the letter
for the jury. Hold on one second while I pull it back up on
the full screen. Could you start reading the letter, please.
A. Yes.
"Jennifer, I was cleaning out my files, and came
across some extra paperwork enclosed. Some you may have seen,
some maybe not. But the most important part of this package is
the enclosed reference paper. I would send it right to Todd,
but he may procrastinate and the quicker Cotter & Co. receives
it, the quicker I go from 4.25 to $7 an hour. Please fill it
out as detailed below and return it in the
pre-addressed/pre-stamped envelope. Please do this the same
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
day/night you receive this and drop it in a postal mailbox that
day. (A blue curb-side mailbox or post office.)"
Q. Can you stop right there, please. Okay. Can you read it
just a little slower and continue.
A. Okay. "Just sign Todd Krieger. Sign normally. They don't
have anyone's handwriting. Don't concentrate. Just flow it.
Todd Krieger. Such as that. If your hand screws up, flow with
it. It will look like a natural signature."
Q. Okay. Stop right there, please. Okay. Turn over to page
2; and if you can continue reading.
A. "If you go slow, it will look forged. Anyway, I'm sending
it to you because I need the New York postal mark on the
envelope. I have no lack of people to do it here. Just need
that postal mark."
Q. Okay. Let's start right there. Up there in the top
right-hand corner of that second page, do you see some writing
that you didn't read?
A. Yes.
Q. And what does that say?
A. It just has another example of Todd Krieger's signature.
Q. Now, that's written in cursive writing; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. As well as page 1, where he mentions Todd Krieger?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the only time that you've seen your brother sign a
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
name in cursive writing?
A. I believe so.
MR. NIGH: I object as leading.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear your answer.
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. Now, let's go back to the photographs, if I can find them,
of the car. I think I was about to show you Government's
Exhibit 221, which hasn't been moved into evidence yet. And if
you could also look at 222. Two photographs. Do you see
those?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize these photographs?
A. Yes.
Q. Who did you receive these photographs from?
A. Tim.
Q. And when did you receive them?
A. It was early '95.
Q. When you received them, did he also send you other
documents and other materials?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. What else did you receive from him in early 1995?
A. I got a couple letters in early 1995.
Q. Okay. Did you receive any personal belongings or
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
memorabilia from your brother?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you receive?
A. He sent me a box of all his military records, high school
yearbook, personal belongings.
Q. Did he tell you why he was sending you all his personal
belongings at that time?
A. No.
Q. And these two photographs that I'm showing you,
Government's Exhibit 221 and 222, were part of that package?
A. I think so, yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, the Government offers
Exhibit 221 and 222.
MR. NIGH: Same objection I made yesterday, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled. 221 and 222 received.
MS. WILKINSON: I'd like to publish these just
briefly.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Ms. McVeigh, 221 should be on your screen. Do you see
that?
A. Yep.
Q. Tell the jury what this photo shows.
A. It shows Tim's car with the back end smashed. Same picture
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
as yesterday.
Q. Okay. And 222?
A. Same thing. Closeup of the smashed back end.
Q. And that's that same gray car you said he was driving back
in November of 1994; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I want to turn your attention to early 1995, when you
were working on a paper for school. Do you recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you use your word processor at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did you find when you looked on one of your disks
that was designed for your word processor?
A. A note to the ATF.
Q. And what did you think when you read that note?
MR. NIGH: I object, your Honor, about what she
thought.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. What did you do when you read that note?
Let me ask it to you a different way: Did you leave
the note on your disk?
A. Yes.
Q. Did there come a time when you spoke to your brother about
that note?
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. I think it was sometime early '95 again.
Q. Again, that would be between January and April of 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. And how did it come to be that you actually talked to him
about this? Did he call you? Did you call him?
A. I don't know who called who. But do you want me to
explain?
Q. Yes, please.
A. I asked him if he wanted me to leave it on there.
Q. Well, why don't you tell us -- was there a name of the
document on the file?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the name of the document?
A. "ATF Read."
Q. And did you tell him the content of the document?
A. Not in exact words, but I explained it.
Q. And then you asked him whether he wanted you to get rid of
it, or keep it on the computer?
A. Right.
Q. What did he say?
A. Something to the effect of just leave it there; he didn't
care.
Q. Now, do you have Government's Exhibit No. 7 in front of
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
you?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
A. It's the note to the ATF.
Q. Is that the note that was entitled "ATF Read"?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we offer Government's
Exhibit No. 7.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I object on the basis of
foundation at this point, also relevance, prejudice, and
404(b).
THE COURT: Well, I need another question or two for
foundation.
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, your Honor.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Did you discuss with him whether he had written this
document, or are you aware of whether he wrote this document at
the time he was writing the letter to the American Legion on
your computer back in November of 1994?
MR. NIGH: I object unless she has personal knowledge,
your Honor.
MS. WILKINSON: I asked whether they discussed it,
your Honor.
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
THE COURT: Yes. Overruled on the objection. It
means you can answer.
THE WITNESS: Okay. I only asked him whether I should
take it off.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. And was it your understanding from talking to him that he
had written that document on your word processor?
A. Yes.
MR. NIGH: I object, your Honor.
THE COURT: What's the objection?
MR. NIGH: The objection to that one is leading.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: The answer stands.
MS. WILKINSON: We offer Government's Exhibit --
THE COURT: Well, I think we need to know whether it
was -- who downloaded it, I think they call it.
MS. WILKINSON: Okay. I hate to admit that you're
better with those terms than I am, your Honor.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Was this document, Government's Exhibit No. 7, on a
computer disk that you had at your house?
A. Yes.
Q. And did there come a time when you spoke to the FBI after
the bombing of the Oklahoma City building?
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. And did you consent to turning over the disk to the FBI?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you review the document that was printed from that
disk?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that the document in front of you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you review that document before coming to court to
determine whether it was a fair and accurate representation of
that file that you knew was on your disk?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: At this time, your Honor, we'd offer
Government's Exhibit No. 7.
MR. NIGH: I'd still object, your Honor.
THE COURT: Objection overruled. Received. You may
publish.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Now, Ms. McVeigh, is this document Government's Exhibit No.
7?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Let me zoom in on it. Hold on one second.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, if I could, because of the
language -- I would prefer to read it into the record than have
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
Ms. McVeigh read it.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Ms. McVeigh, I'm going to read it you, and tell me if it's
an accurate representation.
"ATF, all you tyrannical motherfuckers will swing in
the wind one day, for your treasonous actions against the
Constitution and the United States. Remember the Nuremburg War
Trials. But ... but ... but ... I was only following
orders!...... Die, you spineless, cowardice bastards!"
Is that the document that you found on your disk in
early 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you talked to your brother about retaining this
document on your disk, did he tell you why he wanted to leave
it on there?
A. No.
Q. Did he tell you why he had written it?
A. No.
Q. Now, in front of you you should have Government's Exhibit
No. 8, which is the disk. Do you see that? I'm sorry. 6.
Do you have the disk up there?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that the disk that contained this exhibit,
Government's Exhibit No. 7, the short document "ATF Read" and
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
the document that you discussed yesterday, Government's Exhibit
No. 8 that was entitled "Constitutional Defenders"?
A. Yes.
Q. Did that disk have both of these documents on it?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we'd offer Government's
Exhibit No. 6, the disk, into evidence.
MR. NIGH: Same objections, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, what are we do to with it? I mean,
it is -- is it a usable exhibit?
MS. WILKINSON: We don't need it, your Honor. It's to
ensure these documents came from there. I'll withdraw it.
THE COURT: All right. Withdrawn.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Ms. McVeigh, in March of 1994, did there come a time when
you received a letter from your brother that you later
destroyed?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us when you received that letter.
A. Again, it was early '95. I don't know the exact date.
Q. Okay. And did you receive a second letter after that that
you kept?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you receive that second letter on March 25, 1995?
MR. NIGH: I object as leading, your Honor.
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Okay. Do you recall when you received that second letter?
A. It was -- it was after the first one.
Q. Okay. Tell the jury what that first letter, the March --
the early 1995 letter said.
A. It said something big is going to happen in the month of
the bull.
Q. I'm sorry. They are telling me that you went too fast and
they couldn't hear you. Could you tell us again what the
letter said?
A. It said something is going to happen in the month of the
bull.
Q. Something big is going to happen?
MR. NIGH: I object as leading.
THE COURT: Well, there's a difference in the two
answers.
What is your answer with respect to your recollection
of what the letter that no longer exists, as I understand it,
says?
THE WITNESS: It was either something or something big
is going to happen in the month of the bull.
THE COURT: In what?
THE WITNESS: In the month of the bull.
THE COURT: Okay.
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Ms. McVeigh, in your statement of May 2, your sworn
statement where you signed every page, did you tell the FBI
that your brother said something big was going to happen?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did he ever tell you or did he -- did he ever tell you
what that something big was?
A. No.
Q. He never told you what it was?
A. No.
Q. And you never asked him about it, did you?
A. No.
Q. What was your understanding of what he meant by the month
of the bull?
A. It was according to an astrology book I have. It was March
or April.
Q. It was which months?
A. March or April. It's mixed between two months.
Q. Okay. Did you -- did you understand that he was writing to
you in code by writing the month of the bull?
A. If -- I guess if you call it -- yeah. Yeah.
Q. And from your conversations with him back in November of
1994 and through this time period in 1995 and through the
literature, did you have an understanding as to what specific
date he was referring to?
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
A. I have a date that I thought it was.
Q. What date did you think it was?
MR. NIGH: I object, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Did he ever tell you what date it was?
A. No.
Q. When he told you that something big was going to happen,
did you have an understanding as to whether he would be
involved with that event?
MR. NIGH: I object, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained as to her understanding.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Did he tell you whether he was going to be involved with
that event?
A. No.
Q. In that letter, did he also advise you that you should stay
on your vacation a little longer?
A. In a letter and conversation, yes.
Q. Okay. Now tell us about that. Were you planning on taking
a vacation in 1995?
A. Yes. I go on spring break.
Q. And where were you planning to go?
A. Pensacola, Florida.
Q. And during what time period were you planning to be in
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
Florida originally?
A. It was two weeks, I believe it was in April.
Q. And you had conveyed that -- those vacation plans to your
brother?
A. Yes.
Q. So he knew that you were supposed to be in Florida during
April?
A. Yes.
Q. And had you told him that before he wrote you this letter
advising you to stay in Florida or stay on your vacation a
little longer?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did he tell you a few other things in that letter
about what you should do with the letter after you read it?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said I should burn the letter.
Q. What did you do?
A. Burned the letter.
Q. Where did you burn it?
A. In my garage.
Q. When did you do it?
A. Probably the same day I got it.
Q. Did he give you any other information in that letter?
A. I think that's all.
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
Q. Now, you told us that you received another letter that you
kept after that; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit No. 17. Do you
recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you recognize that?
A. That's the second letter.
Q. Do you recognize the handwriting?
A. Yes.
Q. Whose handwriting is that?
A. It's Tim's.
Q. And do you recognize the date?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you receive this letter?
A. Saturday, March 25.
Q. Of what year?
A. 1995.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, we offer Government's
Exhibit 17.
MR. NIGH: Same objections, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled. And 17 is received and may be
published to the jury.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
Q. Ms. McVeigh, did you receive this 25 March, 1995, letter
shortly after the burn letter, as we have referred to it?
A. Yes.
Q. And does this letter reference the letter that you burned?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you read this letter into the record for the jury.
A. "Jenny, still waiting on your letter as to whether you
received my last letter. (About being a rock.) That's what
'confirmation of receipt' means. That had a lot of sensitive
material in it so it's important to know if you received it or
it was intercepted either by G-men or Dad. Also, did Dad get
VHS tapes and did you get Vampire Killer 2000??? Please
respond ASAP, only one letter. If one is already en route,
don't send another. Send no more after the first of April and
then even if it's an emergency, watch what you say because I
may not get it in time and the G-men might get it out of my
box, incriminating you. Enjoy your vacation. T."
Q. Is it your understanding that T is Tim?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Let's go back up to the top of the letter. The
first sentence he says: "Still waiting on your letter as to
whether you received my last letter." What was your
understanding as to what he was referring to in that sentence?
A. He was referring to the letter he wanted me to burn.
Q. The one that you did burn?
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. And then he says about being a rock. Did he say something
in the letter that you burned about being a rock?
A. I -- he must have.
Q. And what was your understanding of what he meant by being a
rock?
MR. NIGH: I object, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Did he tell you what he meant when he said be a rock?
A. No.
Q. The next sentence, he says, "That's what confirmation of
receipt means." Was there something in the last letter that
mentioned confirmation of receipt?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did he instruct you to write him a letter that you had
received the burn letter?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you do that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you write that letter before you received this March 25
letter or after?
A. I'm not completely sure.
Q. The next sentence, he says, "that had a lot of sensitive
material in it so it's important to know if you received it or
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
if it was interrupted (sic) either by G-men or Dad." What
sensitive material was in that letter that you burned,
Ms. McVeigh?
A. I think the something is going to happen.
Q. Something big is going to happen?
A. Something big is going to happen.
Q. The next line he asks you did your dad get VHS tapes and
did you get Vampire Killer 2000. What VHS tapes had he sent
you and your father?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. Okay. Do you know what Vampire Killer 2000 is?
A. It's a -- political literature.
Q. About what?
A. Kind of like new world order type.
Q. What is your understanding of new world order?
A. I haven't read it in a long time.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'm going to object.
MS. WILKINSON: That's all right --
THE COURT: Well, I don't know what the phrase is.
You said what is your understanding of the new world order.
MS. WILKINSON: Right. Because she said that's what
the Vampire Killer 2000 -- but I can move on, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. The next line he writes: "Please respond ASAP, only one
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
letter." Did you only write one letter to your brother after
you received the burn letter?
A. I think so.
Q. "If one is already en route, don't send another. Send no
more after 1 April. And then even if it's an emergency, watch
what you say because I may not get it in time and the G-men
might get it out of my box, incriminating you." Did you ever
have a conversation with him about avoiding detection or
avoiding interception of mail?
A. I don't know about a conversation.
Q. What else did he write about it in that prior burn letter?
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'm going to object to it being
referred to as the burn letter.
THE COURT: All right. Rephrase it.
MS. WILKINSON: Okay.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Okay. The letter that you burned, did he mention avoiding
mail being intercepted?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Now, this wasn't the last letter that you received from
your brother before April 19, 1995, was it?
A. No, I don't think it was.
Q. Did you receive another short note from him?
A. Yes.
Q. And was there anything included with that note? Did he
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
send you some clippings?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember what the clippings were that you received
with the note that he sent?
A. There were clippings from The Turner Diaries.
Q. And how long were the clippings from The Turner Diaries?
A. Very short. Maybe a paragraph.
Q. How many were enclosed with the note?
A. Three.
Q. And you received those sometime after this March 25 letter,
but before you left for your vacation in Florida?
A. Yes.
Q. And when did you leave for your vacation in Florida?
A. I don't know the date.
Q. Does -- does April 8 sound familiar?
A. It was -- yeah. It was in that time frame.
Q. So somewhere in that two-week time frame, you received this
other note with the clippings; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall specifically what clippings from The Turner
Diaries were included?
A. No.
Q. Did he tell you why he was sending you those clippings from
The Turner Diaries?
A. No.
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
Q. Did you keep them?
A. No.
Q. Temporarily? Did you keep them temporarily?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you keep the note that he wrote you?
A. Yes. I don't think there was a note in there. I think it
was just a couple pieces of political literature.
Q. Did you take those clippings with you to Florida?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, before you left for your vacation in Florida, did you
get together some of the things that Tim had sent you?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you do that?
A. It was probably the day before I left.
Q. So that would have been April 7, approximately?
A. Yes.
Q. And tell us what you did.
A. I separated his military records and personal items from
the political literature, Waco videotapes, things like that and
letters.
Q. So you had two boxes for his items; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And one box, you put the memorabilia, the yearbooks; is
that correct?
A. Yes.
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
Q. And in the other, you put literature?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you put photographs in that box?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you put letters that he wrote you?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, had you discussed with him whether you should separate
out or somehow remove those items from your home before you
left for spring break?
A. I'm not sure I -- I may have asked him.
Q. Do you recall having a phone conversation with him about
whether you should remove those items from your home?
A. I -- I think I did.
Q. And that would have been sometime in March or April of --
early April of 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you say to him?
A. I think I asked him if he wanted me to get rid of that
stuff or something and he said no, he didn't care.
Q. But you decided to do it anyway?
A. Yeah.
Q. That evening of April 7 when you divided up the materials
in those two boxes, what did you do with the two boxes?
A. I gave one to Rose.
Q. "Rose" being Rose Woods, the friend you mentioned
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
yesterday?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do with the other box?
A. Put it in my closet.
Q. Which box did you keep in your closet?
A. The one with the military records and personal things.
Q. So you gave Rose Woods the box with the letters, the
photos, and the political literature?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you ask her to do with the box?
A. Keep it -- keep it for me while I was on vacation.
Q. Why did you want her to keep it at her house?
MR. NIGH: I object, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Because I -- from what had been
indicated, I thought something might happen while I was on
vacation.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Did you leave the next morning to go to Florida?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you go in Florida?
A. Pensacola, Florida.
Q. Let me go back to one thing. You said you put some
literature into that box that you gave to Rose Woods; correct?
A. Yes.
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
Q. Can you look at Government Exhibits 10, 11, and 12. Do you
see those?
A. Yes.
Q. Start with Government's Exhibit No. 10. Do you recognize
that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize the handwriting?
A. Yes.
Q. Whose handwriting is that?
A. It's Tim's.
Q. Is this one of the documents that you had in the box that
you gave to Rose Woods on April 7?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, Government offers Exhibit
10.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 10 is received.
MS. WILKINSON: May we publish?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Just briefly, Ms. McVeigh, tell the jury what this document
is. Hold on one second. There you go.
A. It has a couple different articles. It has The American
Response to Tyranny, and then it has the John Locke quote
pasted on.
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
Q. You told us yesterday that you had seen this quote before.
Is this one of the documents where you had seen it?
A. Yes.
Q. And this quote is in your brother's handwriting; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, turn to Government's Exhibit No. 11. Do you recognize
that?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this the same quote by itself?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Government --
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Was this in Rose Woods' box -- or the box you gave to Rose
Woods? Excuse me.
A. I think so.
MS. WILKINSON: Government offers Exhibit 11.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 11 received.
MS. WILKINSON: Publish it just briefly, please.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Ms. McVeigh, is this just the handwritten quote that you
just described for us by itself, Government's Exhibit No. 11?
A. Yes.
Q. Finally, if you could turn to Government's Exhibit No. 12.
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
Do you recognize this?
A. Yes.
Q. And was this a document that you put in the box that you
gave to Rose Woods on April 7?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, Government offers Exhibit
12.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 12 received and may be published.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. What is this article, Ms. McVeigh?
A. It's titled "Whatever Happened to Liberty Day."
Q. And does this discuss April 19, 1775?
A. Yes.
Q. And you had all these documents as well as many others in
the box that you gave to Rose Woods on April 7, 1995; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Let's turn to when you moved -- or when you
went on vacation to Florida. Did you tell Rose Woods when you
would be coming back?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. Okay. Did you know at that time how long you were going to
stay in Florida?
A. Yes.
Q. What were your plans at that time?
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
A. Stay two weeks.
Q. So you would have returned on what day if you left on the
8th?
A. The 16th.
Q. Did you stay in Florida longer than that?
A. That's wrong.
Q. Take your time. You can do the math.
A. 24th. Somewhere around there.
Q. And were you in Florida on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you that morning?
A. I was at my friend Dennis's.
Q. Who is Dennis?
A. Dennis Sadler. He's a friend of mine.
Q. And were you down there visiting him and family?
A. Yes.
Q. And where were you when you heard about the bombing?
A. We were picking up Dennis's paycheck. We were driving.
Q. Did you do anything after you heard about the bombing?
A. No.
Q. Did you contact your family?
A. Yes.
Q. And --
A. No. Not after the bombing. After I heard Tim's name.
MR. NIGH: I couldn't hear her last answer.
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
THE WITNESS: Not after the bombing. That was after I
heard Tim's name, I contacted my family.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Okay. Let's turn to that. On April 21, 1995, do you
recall hearing that your brother had been arrested?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you when you heard that he had been arrested?
A. We were driving, and that's what I meant last time. For
the last question.
Q. Meaning you and Dennis were driving?
A. Dennis and I were driving when I heard his name announced.
Q. Were you driving the car, or was Dennis driving the car?
A. I was driving.
Q. What did you do after you heard about your brother's
arrest?
A. Smoked a lot of cigarettes and Dennis drove.
Q. And did you go back to his house?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do when you got back to his house?
A. Well, I got ahold of family. I burned those clippings.
Q. All right. Let's talk about burning those clippings. You
had those three Turner Diary clippings with you?
A. Yes.
Q. And the short note that accompanied them?
A. Yes.
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
Q. Where did you burn those materials?
A. A little laundry room in the back of Dennis's garage and
that's where.
Q. Were you by yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you tell Dennis that you had burned them?
A. Afterwards.
Q. Why did you burn them?
A. I was scared.
Q. What were you scared of?
A. Well, I just heard Tim's name announced, so I figured they
would come around sooner or later and talk to me.
Q. You were afraid that they would take those documents?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, shortly after the -- did the FBI, in fact, come and
find you?
A. Yes.
Q. They found you in Florida?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you talk to them?
A. Not much.
Q. Did you want to talk to them?
A. No.
Q. In fact, you don't really want to be here today talking to
us, do you?
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
A. No.
Q. Are you here pursuant to an immunity order?
A. Yes.
Q. And is it your understanding today that that immunity order
protects you as long as you tell the truth?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know what, if anything, you could be prosecuted
for if you testified falsely today?
A. Just lying.
Q. Let's go back to your discussions with the FBI. Did they
talk to you in Florida on several occasions?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Did you return home to Buffalo after that, to the Buffalo
area?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you speak to the FBI during that time period?
A. Yes.
Q. And that would have been the week after the bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. During that time, did you tell them everything that you've
told the jury today that first week?
A. Yes.
Q. Everything? Let's break it down. You returned back to
your home the Monday after the bombing; is that right?
A. Yes.
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
Q. And during those first four weekdays or five weekdays,
Monday through Friday, did you tell the FBI everything that you
knew?
A. You mean the first statement? Is what you mean?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. And did there come a time when you made a written
statement --
A. Yes.
Q. -- about what you knew? That first statement?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you do that on May 1 of 1995?
A. I believe that was the date, yeah.
Q. Before you signed that statement, were you able to review
the statement and initial each page?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you swear in that statement that you were telling
the truth?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you swear in that statement that you had destroyed
no other documents other than the letter you had burned in
March of 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that true?
A. Yes -- no. I'm sorry.
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
Q. Did you decide then to make a second statement?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that on March (sic) 2, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. And in that statement, did you reveal additional
information to the FBI?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you reveal the conversation about the explosives?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you reveal that you had burned the clippings from The
Turner Diary when you were in Florida after you heard about
your brother's arrest?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, at that point, had you told the FBI everything that
you knew?
A. Yes.
Q. And told them everything that you've told this jury today?
A. Yes.
Q. During that time period when you were revealing this
information, did you feel like the FBI treated you fairly?
A. No.
Q. Did you feel like they were pressuring you to talk?
A. Yes.
Q. After you made those statements, despite that treatment,
did you feel like you had been honest with the FBI about
Jennifer McVeigh - Direct
everything you knew?
A. Yes.
Q. And today, despite your feelings about your cooperation,
have you told the jury the truth?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Nigh.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I have some exhibits for the
witness.
THE COURT: All right. Send them over to the clerk.
Do you -- do you also want these that she already has, or may
we remove them?
MR. NIGH: We may need those, but they could be put to
one side.
THE COURT: Yeah. Let's don't clutter up the witness
stand too much.
MR. NIGH: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Good morning, Ms. McVeigh.
A. Good morning.
Q. Do you kind of wish we'd have finished yesterday so you
didn't have to be back this morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, we'll try to make it relatively quick.
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
What I would like to do first is go back to some of
the personal information that you talked about yesterday with
Ms. Wilkinson. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. And I want to clarify some of the things that you said.
Tim is five years older than you; is that right?
A. Five or six.
Q. You don't remember for sure?
A. No.
Q. When you initially moved out -- you and your mother moved
out of the house -- that was only 10 or 15 minutes away from
where Tim lived; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you continued to live in that house for how long?
A. We were in two different houses, until we moved to Florida
with my mother, in Lockport until the end of my ninth grade
year, so . . .
Q. So it would have been from fourth grade until ninth grade;
is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And that would be five years that you lived pretty close
there to Tim?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And during that time, you saw him relatively
frequently; is that correct?
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Then when you moved to Florida, when you were in ninth
grade, that was the same time that Tim went into the military;
isn't that right?
A. Yes.
Q. While you were in Florida?
A. Yeah.
Q. If I'm wrong, tell me.
A. I'm not completely positive when he went in.
Q. All right. You know -- you know that he served in
Operation Desert Storm; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you were in the 11th grade, you moved back to New
York; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you graduated from high school in New York?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And then Tim returned from the military in
1992, early 1992?
A. Yes.
Q. He had completed his service in late 1991, in December of
1991; is that right?
A. I guess so. Yeah.
Q. If you don't know, you can tell me. That's fine.
A. Okay.
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
Q. And when he got out of the military, did he live with you
and your dad at the house on Campbell Street for a while?
A. I don't remember it that well, but I think he stayed there
for a short time.
Q. And then got his own apartment; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you moved into your own apartment during the
approximate same period of time?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you told the jury yesterday about attending college?
A. Yes.
Q. And which college are you currently attending?
A. Buffalo State College.
Q. How long have you been at Buffalo State?
A. This will be my first year.
Q. Before you attended Buffalo State, did you attend a
community college?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that Niagara County Community College?
A. Yes.
Q. NCCC?
A. Yeah.
Q. How long did you attend NCCC?
A. Two years.
Q. Were you studying elementary education there, as well?
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
A. I started in psychology, and I switched it to elementary
ed., but it was a liberal arts degree.
Q. You mentioned yesterday that this letter "Constitutional
Defenders" that you saw Tim write --
MR. NIGH: If I may publish this, your Honor,
Government's Exhibit 8, which is already admitted into
evidence.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. NIGH: If I could use the ELMO.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. You see that on your screen in front of you?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this the one that you corrected Tim's sentence structure
on?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And that was a letter that he had written to
the American Legion magazine?
A. Yes.
Q. Would have been during the fall of 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, this letter, you actually saw him write; is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And helped him with it a little bit?
A. Yeah.
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
Q. Was that kind of in connection with your occupation -- or
your desired occupation as an elementary school teacher?
A. Yeah. I'm an English person.
Q. You make good grades in college?
A. Yes.
Q. Also, on direct examination yesterday, you testified
about -- in it -- you mentioned it again today -- receiving
materials in the mail from your brother, including memorabilia
and military records.
A. Yes.
Q. And some of that was political literature; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And some of it was Tim's military records that he had
obtained while he was serving in the Army?
A. Yes.
Q. I'd like to direct your attention, if I may, to what I've
marked as Defense Exhibits O -- O-65 and O-66. They should be
right there in front of you. Probably the very last two
documents in that file folder you have in your hand.
A. Okay. I have them.
Q. Directing your attention first to O-65, do you recognize
that?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. That's one of the certificates for a medal.
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
Q. Is that the Army Commendation Medal?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that one of the documents that Tim sent to you in this
letter that you testified to on direct examination?
A. Yes.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission of
O-65.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection.
THE COURT: O-65 received.
MR. NIGH: May we publish this, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Ms. McVeigh, if you would, go ahead and read what is set
forth there.
A. It's -- do you want me to start with the top?
Q. Why don't you read the --
A. Just the bottom four?
Q. Why don't you identify what it is, the title on the
certificate.
A. It's the Department of the Army. It says, "This is to
certify the Secretary of the Army has awarded the Army
Commendation Medal to Sergeant Timothy James McVeigh, Charlie
Company." Do you want me --
Q. And then what is it for, if you go ahead and read that as
well.
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
A. "Meritorious achievement, with valor, during Operation
Desert Storm while assigned as an infantryman to Team Alpha
Task Force 2-16 Infantry on 25 February, 1991 in southern Iraq.
He inspired all members of his squad and platoon by destroying
an enemy machine-gun placement, killing two Iraqi soldiers and
forcing the surrender of 30 other enemy soldiers in dug-in
positions. His actions while under enemy fire reflect great
credit upon himself, the First Inventory Division, and the
United States Army."
Q. Thank you.
Now, if I could direct your attention to Defense
Exhibit O-66. Do you see that one?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is that?
A. It's a certificate for the Bronze Star Medal.
Q. And is that one of the documents that Tim sent to you in
this letter that you referred to previously?
A. Yes.
MR. NIGH: I'd move for the admission of O-66.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection.
THE COURT: Received and may be published.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. And Ms. McVeigh, is that the Bronze Star Medal certificate
that Tim received while he was in Desert Storm?
A. Yes.
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
Q. If you would, just read the part of it which is describing
what it's for, beginning with "meritorious service."
A. "Meritorious service during the period 17 January, 1991, to
3 March, 1991, while a member of the 2d Battalion, 16th
Infantry Task Force, First Infantry Division (Mechanized)
Operation Desert Storm. His selfless actions were key to the
flawless execution of the mission, the liberation of Kuwait,
and the ultimate defeat of the Iraqi Army. Sergeant McVeigh's
flawless devotion to duty truly exemplifies the finest
traditions of the military service and reflects great credit
upon him, the First Infantry Division (Mechanized) and the
United States Army."
Q. Thank you. Now, Ms. McVeigh, what I would like to do is to
return to some of the items that you mentioned on direct
examination while Ms. Wilkinson was questioning you. And I
want to go back first yesterday to some of the things that you
mentioned yesterday. Do you recall talking about seeing a
photograph with Tim wearing biker gear?
A. Yes.
Q. And you did have a photograph which depicted your brother
wearing what? Sunglasses and something that looked like a
Harley-Davidson outfit or something like that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Tim tell you where he had worn that biker garb?
A. He mentioned California.
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
Q. Did he tell you that he had worn that biker garb anywhere
else?
A. No.
Q. You also -- and this was something that was brought up
today -- testified about a letter that you received saying that
something -- or something big would happen during the month of
the bull?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that right? I'd like to direct your attention to --
well, first before I do that, let me ask you this: As a result
of receiving that letter, did you consult your astrological
chart?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, if I could direct your attention to Government's
Exhibit 0 -- I mean Defense Exhibit O-33. It should be pretty
close to the top of that loose stack. Not -- not in that
folder.
A. Actually, it is in this folder. I saw it --
Q. It might be in that big folder.
A. Thanks, Rob.
Q. Do you see it?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is that?
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
A. This is the page out of the book I looked in to find out
what the month of the bull was.
Q. Your astrological chart?
A. Yes.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission of
Defense Exhibit O-33.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection.
THE COURT: O-33 received.
MR. NIGH: If we could publish it.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. When does the month of the bull begin, according to your
astrological chart?
A. April 20.
Q. Thank you. And this is the document that you looked at?
A. Yes.
Q. Also, this morning, Ms. McVeigh, you testified about giving
a box of materials to Rose Woods before you went on your
vacation to Florida.
A. Yes.
Q. Was that a decision you made completely on your own?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Tim tell you to move anything out of the house?
A. No.
Q. You also testified this morning about this "ATF Read"
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
document. Do you recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see your brother write that?
A. No.
Q. Do you know if your brother wrote that, from your own
personal knowledge?
A. I just found it later.
Q. You had seen him write the "Constitutional Defenders"
letter; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see anybody write the ATF letter?
A. No.
Q. Did Tim ever say anything to you about delivering the ATF
letter?
A. No.
Q. Showing it to anyone?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever express concern that anyone would see it?
A. No.
Q. Now, when was the last time that Tim was in your house
where your computer was?
A. November of '94.
Q. And is that when he wrote the "Constitutional Defenders"
letter?
A. Yes.
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
Q. You also testified during the course of your direct
examination that Tim sent you a number of items of political
literature over time.
A. Yes.
Q. Did that begin in approximately 1992?
A. Yes.
Q. And did it continue up until 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you receive it all at once, or was it kind of spread
out a few items here and a few items there?
A. It was spread out. He'd send it to me every now and then.
Q. I'd like to direct your attention, if I may, to what's been
marked as Defendant's Exhibit O-14. Do you have that in front
of you?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that appear to be an article entitled "The American
Response to Tyranny" and overlay from John Locke's "Second
Treatise on Government"?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that one of the documents that Tim sent to you?
A. Yes.
Q. And that you put into Rose Woods' box?
A. Yes.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd move for admission of O-14.
MS. WILKINSON: I'm sorry. I don't have a copy of the
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
materials that Mr. Nigh gave her.
THE COURT: Find it, please.
MS. WILKINSON: I have no objection, your Honor, other
than it's already a Government exhibit, the same one that we
entered.
THE COURT: Well, I was wondering if there was a
duplication.
MS. WILKINSON: I don't know why we need the same
thing twice.
MR. NIGH: We don't, your Honor.
MS. WILKINSON: I believe it's Government's Exhibit
No. 10.
MR. NIGH: Then I don't need to admit a defense one,
your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. It's recognized that it's the
same as what's been received as Government's 10.
MR. NIGH: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Now, if I could direct your attention to -- we don't need
to publish that. It doesn't -- Defense Exhibit O-17. Does
that -- don't publish it yet. It's not in. Does that appear
to be an article entitled "Waco Shootout Evokes Memory of
Warsaw '43"?
A. Yes.
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
Q. Is that one of the items that Tim sent to you of political
literature?
A. I'm not sure about the top, but I remember the quotes at
the bottom, reading those before.
Q. The quotes at the bottom from Thomas Jefferson about the
tree of liberty?
A. Yes.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission of
O-17.
THE COURT: Do you have a copy of that?
MS. WILKINSON: I do. I found it, your Honor. No
objection.
THE COURT: O-17 received.
MR. NIGH: May we publish it?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Do you still have that in front of you, Ms. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. And that one, the beginning of it, the title is -- the
beginning title is "Waco Shootout Evokes Memory of Warsaw '43";
is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And down at the bottom, it appears to be from a
letter-to-the-editor page of the Wall Street Journal on
March 15 of 1993; is that right?
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. And then it also has several quotes at the bottom,
including a quote from Thomas Jefferson about the tree of
liberty; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And a few other quotes, as well.
Do you recognize those quotes as documents that Tim
sent to you sometime between 1992 and 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did he only start sending you this type of thing in
late '94 or early 1995, or had he been sending you this type of
thing ever since 1992?
A. He was sending it ever since he got out of the military.
Q. I'm not asking you to tell us precisely when you got this
one. I'm just asking you whether it started at a particular
point or whether it continued all throughout.
A. I'm not positive. I'm not very good with dates.
Q. And is this the kind of document that you put in the Rose
Woods box?
A. Yes.
Q. I'd like to direct your attention to Defense Exhibit O-18.
Do you have that in front of you?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that as a document that Tim sent to you
during that 1992 to 1995 time period?
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. And does it begin with a quote about how to -- or an
article "How to Beat the Government's Terrorist Goon Squads"?
A. Yes.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission of
O-18.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection.
THE COURT: Received, O-18. You may publish if you
wish.
MR. NIGH: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Ms. McVeigh, does that document on the right-hand side have
a quote from The Gulag Archipelago by Alexander Solzhenitsyn?
A. Yes.
Q. And then lower right-hand side, does it have a quote from
Winston Churchill?
A. Yes.
Q. On the lower left-hand side -- or actually, the entire
left-hand column, does it have a quote from Patrick Henry
ending with the last paragraph, "Many cry peace, peace, but
there is no peace"?
A. Yes.
Q. Had Tim sent this to you during that period of time?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that one of the items that you put in the Rose Woods
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
box?
A. Yes.
Q. If you would, Ms. McVeigh, look at those documents in front
of you and see if you can -- well, first look at O-20, if you
would. Have you found that one?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that appear to be a document of political literature
that Tim sent to you during this 1992 to '95 time period?
A. Yes.
MR. NIGH: I'd move for the admission of O-20, your
Honor.
MS. WILKINSON: Again, your Honor, I believe this is
already in evidence with the Government; but I have no
objection.
THE COURT: Do you have the reference?
MS. WILKINSON: We're looking it up. I'm not sure
which number it is.
THE COURT: Well, we'll admit O-20, even though it may
duplicate another exhibit.
MR. NIGH: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Ms. McVeigh, does this have a picture of the American Eagle
and a quote from Samuel Adams under that, "If ye love wealth
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
better than liberty," etc., etc.?
A. Yes.
Q. And at the bottom, a quote from Thoreau, "There are a
thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking
at the root?"
A. Yes.
Q. Is this one of the documents that Tim sent to you during
that time period?
A. Yes.
Q. And is this one of the documents that you put into the Rose
Woods box?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. I'm not going to cover everything that was put
into that box; but let me ask you: Were there a number of
items containing similar quotes from people like Thomas
Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Thoreau, other individuals like that?
A. Yes.
Q. And Tim had sent you those over time; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And also, did you put a copy of the first ten amendments to
the Constitution in the Rose Woods box?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you put a copy of the Declaration of Independence
in the Rose Woods box?
A. Yes.
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
Q. Were those items that Tim had sent to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Based upon what you know about your brother Tim, would it
have been unusual at all for him to have this type of political
literature in his possession on April 19 of 1995?
A. No.
Q. Now, if we could, I'd like to talk a moment about The
Turner Diaries.
A. Okay.
Q. You said that you received a copy of The Turner Diaries
from your brother; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And that he had parts of it highlighted; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Let's talk about highlighting for just a moment. Did -- in
what manner did Tim highlight documents and books?
A. He highlighted, I think, things he thought were important;
and he highlighted a lot.
Q. Did he highlight in such a fashion that it was sometimes
difficult to determine what he was emphasizing?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he send you clippings sometimes that had highlighting
on both sides?
A. Yes. In fact, the ones that I received earlier were like
that.
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
Q. The clippings from The Turner Diaries that you burned?
A. Yes.
Q. They had highlighting on both sides?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know which side he was trying to direct your
attention to, if either?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever call your attention to that part of the book
which references the FBI truck bombing, or the truck bombing of
FBI headquarters in Washington, D.C.?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever say anything to you about that truck bombing --
A. No.
Q. -- referenced in the book?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever talk to you about ammonium nitrate?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever talk to you about nitromethane?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever talk to you about anhydrous hydrazine?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever make any special mention of aspects of the
Turner Diaries that might have mentioned those things?
A. No.
Q. Now, the clippings that he sent to you that you said that
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
you received in late March or early April of 1995, do you know,
did those reference the truck bombing of FBI headquarters?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Now, Ms. McVeigh, I'd like to turn to the events beginning
on April 21 of 1995. Were you first contacted by the FBI at
Dennis Sadler's house?
A. Yes.
Q. While you were there in Florida during that -- during
April 21 and shortly thereafter, did they search Dennis's
house?
A. Yes.
Q. And did they search your truck?
A. Yes.
Q. You drive a pickup truck, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they search your truck?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they take anything out of your truck?
A. Yes.
Q. What -- what did they take?
A. I don't know everything that they took offhand. I know
they took some cassette tapes I had.
Q. What kind of cassette tapes?
A. They were patriot music.
Q. Patriot music?
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Would you -- would you consider those political
audiotapes?
A. Yeah. Somewhat.
Q. Were those items that Tim had given to you?
A. No.
Q. Those were items you had obtained on your own?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any literature that they took or any documents
that they took?
A. From my truck, I don't know. From Dennis's house, I think
I had a couple political literature, maybe.
Q. Did you have a "Citizens Rule Book"?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that something Tim had given to you, or had you
obtained that on your own?
A. I got it on my own.
Q. Now, on Monday, April the 24th of 1995, did you travel to
Buffalo to meet with the FBI?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you leave your truck in Florida? Did you fly?
A. Yes.
Q. And did your father and FBI agents meet you at the airport?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you go from the airport?
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
A. Straight to the FBI office.
Q. Did they question you that night?
A. They tried to.
Q. You weren't answering their questions?
A. No.
Q. Did they question you the following day?
A. Yes.
Q. For eight or nine hours?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they question you the day after that?
A. For about eight days straight.
Q. Eight or nine hours each day?
A. It was -- yeah. It varied.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. It was varied, yeah, but it was usually -- we were usually
there up until the evening hours.
Q. Did you ask for a day off?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you given a day off?
A. No.
Q. Did you have a phrase during that period of time for your
presence at the FBI office in Buffalo?
A. Yes. After I got Joel, we referred to it as camping out at
the FBI office.
Q. You referenced Joel. Who is Joel?
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
A. My lawyer.
Q. Did you have a lawyer during that initial period of time?
A. No.
Q. Now, during the course of that eight or nine days, did the
FBI ask you for more and more details about what they were --
you were telling them?
A. Yes.
Q. I want to go back to something that you mentioned
yesterday, a conversation with Tim about having some explosives
and almost being involved in a wreck. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. And you told the FBI that -- or at least your written
statement to the FBI says it was up to a thousand pounds. Is
that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that -- is that a number that you selected?
A. I wasn't sure, but they wanted a number. That's why it
says up to a thousand pounds.
Q. Do you recall Tim ever saying anything about a thousand
pounds?
A. He gave me a number, but I don't remember exactly what the
number was.
Q. Now, going back to when you first arrived in Buffalo on
April 29, did the FBI have some pictures of you?
A. Yes.
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
Q. Would you -- did they also have some pictures of your
brother, Tim?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you describe those pictures.
A. They had big posters on the walls all over the room.
Q. What kind of posters?
A. They had -- can I stop for a minute?
THE COURT: Yes. Want some water? Why don't you have
some water.
THE WITNESS: They, of course, had Tim's time line of
what they thought he had done. They also had a time line for
me.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. A time line for you? Did they have a picture of you?
A. Yes. My high school picture. They took it off my kitchen
wall.
Q. How large -- had they enlarged it?
A. Yes.
Q. How large had they made it?
A. I don't know. It was maybe that big or around there.
Q. Indicating about two feet tall or -- or a foot and a half
tall?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did they have anything under your picture?
A. They had -- I don't know if it was together or separate,
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
but they also had a list of charges on posters which were
larger.
Q. Charges as to you or to your brother?
A. To me.
Q. Was -- did they show you a statute, also?
A. Yes.
Q. A law book?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me direct your attention, if I may, to Defendant's
O-35. Have you found that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that document?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that a copy of what the FBI showed you and told you that
you could be charged with when you met with them in Buffalo?
A. Yes.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission of
Defendant's O-35.
MS. WILKINSON: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: O-35 received. It may be published.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. If I could direct your attention, Ms. McVeigh, to parts of
that document. Page 57 is what it references in the lower
right-hand corner. Do you see that? Principals?
A. Yes.
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
Q. Is that one of the statutes that they showed you?
A. Yes.
Q. And does it have anything handwritten after: "Whoever
commits an offense against the United States or aids, abets,
counsels, commands, induces or procures is punishable as a
principal"?
A. Yes.
Q. What did they write in there?
A. I.e., death.
Q. Is that something you wrote or the agents wrote?
A. The agents wrote it.
Q. If I could direct your attention to the next page, section
3, clause 1. Treason. Is that one of the statutes that they
called to your attention?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they tell you you could be charged with treason?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they mention to you that you could only be charged with
treason during time of war?
A. No.
Q. What did they write after the statute?
A. "Penalty equals death," underlined.
Q. Does -- the message that they conveyed to you was that you
could receive the death penalty?
A. Yes. In fact, that was on the large posters which were
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
much larger than the pictures.
Q. Did there come a time when the FBI asked you to go see your
brother?
A. Yes.
Q. What did they ask you to do?
A. They wanted me to talk to him on their behalf.
Q. Did they want you to try to obtain information from him --
A. Yes.
Q. -- about any knowledge he might have of the Oklahoma City
bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that their idea or your idea?
A. That was their idea.
Q. Afterwards, did they have you prepare a written statement?
A. Yes.
Q. What did that written statement say?
A. That they had never asked me to work as an agent of the
FBI, basically.
Q. Was that statement the truth?
A. No, it was not.
Q. Why did you sign it?
A. They asked me and then they went and talked to someone, I
guess, higher officials, and were told they couldn't do that.
So then they had me sign a statement, and I really didn't know
what it was and right after -- I did read it, but I really
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
didn't understand it; and right after that is when I got my
attorney because they tried to have me sign a different
statement around the same time.
Q. Yesterday, the Government showed you a number of exhibits
that had Tim's handwriting on them?
A. Yes.
Q. That you recognized as Tim's handwriting?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they ever show you a document that appeared to be a
Ryder rental contract or a document from Ryder trucks bearing
the signature Robert D. Kling?
A. I don't think so, but I'm not sure.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, may I have just a moment?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Ms. McVeigh, you were not involved at all in the Oklahoma
City bombing, were you?
A. No.
Q. You did not facilitate the bombing of the Murrah Building
in Oklahoma City --
A. No.
Q. -- in any way? Did you have any prior knowledge of it?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any knowledge about your brother being
involved in it in any way, shape, or form?
Jennifer McVeigh - Cross
A. No.
MR. NIGH: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any follow-up questions?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Ms. McVeigh, Mr. Nigh just asked you about the Ryder rental
contract. Did you tell the Government that you don't recognize
your brother's writing if he writes in cursive?
A. Yes.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, I'd like to put back up
Government's Exhibit 7 which was previously admitted into
evidence.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Ms. McVeigh, you were asked about this during
cross-examination. This is Government's Exhibit No. 7 that you
found on your computer. Do you recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you write that?
A. No.
Q. Did your father type it?
A. I don't think so.
Q. When you discussed it with your brother, was it your
Jennifer McVeigh - Redirect
understanding that he was familiar with the document you were
talking about?
MR. NIGH: I object, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained as to understanding.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. Did you --
A. Yes.
Q. Did you discuss the document with your brother?
A. Yes.
Q. When you talked to the FBI, did you tell them that that
document was on the disk?
A. Yes.
Q. They hadn't found the disk, had they?
A. No.
Q. You pointed it out for them?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, let's talk a little bit about things that you put in
the Rose Woods box. You told Mr. Nigh that you put some
political literature in there; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Didn't you also put some letters that you received from
your brother in there?
A. Yes.
Q. Look at Government's Exhibit No. 15. Do you recognize
that?
Jennifer McVeigh - Redirect
A. Yes.
Q. And in this, this is where your brother tells you that Mike
and Lori Fortier are trustworthy; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you also hide that letter in the Rose -- put that
letter in the Rose Woods box?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you put other letters that you had received from
your brother in that box?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I'd like to clarify something because I'm confused.
You told Mr. Nigh that you know that your brother never talked
to you about the truck bombing in The Turner Diaries; is that
right?
A. Right.
Q. I thought you told us during direct examination that you
had never really discussed The Turner Diaries with your
brother. Is that true?
A. I'm confused.
Q. Well, why don't you tell us. Have you ever discussed The
Turner Diaries with your brother?
A. No, I don't think I have. Not in conversation.
Q. So he wouldn't have any reason to point out the truck
bombing or any of the components that are discussed in that
book; is that correct?
Jennifer McVeigh - Redirect
MR. NIGH: I object, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. You never discussed any of the details of The Turner
Diaries with him, did you?
A. No.
Q. Another thing I'd like to clear up are these clippings that
you received from him back in March or early April of 1995.
You told us on direct that you didn't recall anything about the
clippings. Is that true?
A. That's true.
Q. So you don't know whether they mentioned the truck bombing
or not, do you?
A. No.
Q. Now, you told us both during direct and cross-examination
that you spoke with the FBI continuously right after the
bombing; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And they were keeping you there for long periods of time,
trying to ask you questions during those initial days when you
were back in Buffalo; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And despite that, you didn't tell them everything you knew,
did you?
A. Not in the first statement.
Jennifer McVeigh - Redirect
Q. And not even -- I'm talking about even before the first
statement. That Monday through Friday when you were there nine
hours a day, you didn't tell them the things that you knew, did
you?
A. No.
Q. Then on Saturday, I believe you told us they showed you
this charges that Mr. Nigh showed you Government's -- I mean
Defense Exhibit O-35.
A. I don't know which day they showed it to me.
Q. Okay. Do you recall whether they showed you those charges
before or after you made your first written statement?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Okay. But once you made your first written statement, you
still didn't tell the truth, did you?
A. I left things out.
Q. Okay. Well, you didn't just leave things out. You also
lied about destroying documents, didn't you?
A. Right.
Q. Now, when the FBI showed you these charges, which you've
clearly told us were very upsetting to you, did they make you
want to lie, or did they make you want to tell the truth?
A. I think they were intended to just get me to talk to them
by scaring me.
Q. Did you understand them to be intended to make you tell the
truth or to lie?
Jennifer McVeigh - Redirect
MR. NIGH: I object, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: To tell the truth.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q. And did you do that?
A. Yes.
Q. You told us that the FBI at some point asked you to go see
your brother; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, after those agents asked you to see -- go see your
brother, you said they went and spoke to higher officials, you
called them. Is that your understanding?
A. Yeah. I don't know who they spoke to exactly.
Q. But it was your understanding it was someone that was above
them?
A. Yes.
Q. And didn't they come back and tell you that they didn't
want you to go see your brother on their behalf?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. And in fact, you never went to see your brother to find out
any information for the FBI, did you?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Despite repeated requests by your family to cooperate with
the FBI; isn't that correct?
A. That's true.
Jennifer McVeigh - Redirect
Q. Your father asked you to cooperate, didn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. And didn't your mother?
A. Yes.
Q. You told Mr. Nigh that you were upset by the charges that
the FBI agents showed you; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you made a statement on May 1 where you revealed a lot
of information; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the FBI let you go home and sleep overnight -- sleep at
night, and come back the next day before you reviewed the
statement and signed it?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you sign every single page at the beginning, at the
end of that statement?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you swear at the end of that statement that it was
true?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you made your second statement, did you follow the
same procedure? Did you go home that night and were you able
to sleep and think about the statement?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were able to come back and make any changes,
Jennifer McVeigh - Redirect
weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You made some changes to that statement, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. When you didn't like the wording?
A. Yes.
Q. You made those changes --
A. Yes.
Q. -- correct? So when you told Mr. Nigh and the jury that
that thousand pounds was just a number that you had to come up
with, that wasn't a number that the FBI gave you, was it?
A. They -- pressured me for a number. And that is what I
thought to be the number.
Q. That's the number you thought Tim told you, a thousand
pounds of explosives; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So nobody put those words into your mouth, did they?
A. No.
MS. WILKINSON: No further questions, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Nigh, any recross?
MR. NIGH: Yes, your Honor.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Ms. McVeigh, at the beginning when the FBI had you in the
office in Buffalo, did they tell you that they were going to
Jennifer McVeigh - Recross
objectively investigate this case and find out whether or not
your brother was responsible?
A. No. They -- they told me he was guilty and she said that
he was going to fry.
MR. NIGH: That's all I have, your Honor.
MS. WILKINSON: No further questions.
THE COURT: What is her status now?
MS. WILKINSON: She's excused on behalf of the
Government.
MR. NIGH: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You're excusing her, as well?
MR. NIGH: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. You're now
excused.
Members of the jury, we'll take our mid-morning recess
at this time. During this recess, please continue to, of
course, avoid discussion about anything that has been presented
to you in the case, remembering what I've said so often about
keeping open minds and, as well, avoid anything in any
communications or publications that could relate to the issues
that are being tried in this case.
You're excused now. 20 minutes.
(Jury out at 10:21 a.m.)
THE COURT: Recess, 20 minutes.
(Recess at 10:22 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 10:42 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 10:42 a.m.)
Next witness, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Government calls Special Agent Luke
Franey. Ms. Behenna will question him.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand.
(Luke Franey affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: My name is Luke Franey, F-R-A-N-E-Y.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Are you employed, Agent Franey?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Where do you work?
A. The United States Treasury Department, the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
Q. And how long have you worked for the ATF?
A. Since July 5 of 1988.
Q. Where are you stationed, or where is your office located?
A. I work in the Oklahoma City field office.
Luke Franey - Direct
Q. And how long have you been in that field office?
A. Since I hired on with ATF.
Q. Do you have college?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Where did you attend college?
A. I attended Sam Houston State University in Huntsville,
Texas. I graduated in 1986 with a degree in criminal justice.
Q. After your graduation from college, did you go immediately
into the ATF, or did you have some other employment?
A. No, I did not. I worked for the Port Aransas Police
Department through '87. Then I was hired by the U.S.
Department of Health and Human Services, Office of Inspector
General, which is their investigative branch. I worked there
until July of 1988, when I was hired by ATF.
Q. What is your job with the ATF?
A. As a criminal investigator or special agent assigned to the
Oklahoma City field office, I investigate crimes that come
under our jurisdiction that occur in the Western Judicial
District of Oklahoma, or the western half of the state, and a
small portion of the eastern part of the state.
Q. And those violations would include what?
A. They would include violations of the federal firearms laws,
explosive laws, arson laws.
Q. Where was the ATF located on April 19, 1995?
A. It was located in the alpha -- Alfred E. Murrah Federal
Luke Franey - Direct
Building at 200 N.W. 5th in Oklahoma City.
Q. On what floor was the ATF office located?
A. Our office was on the 9th floor, in Suite 965.
Q. Let me show you what's already been admitted as
Government's Exhibit 952.
MS. BEHENNA: And with the marshal's assistance, your
Honor, I would like to put the 9th floor up on the easel for
the ease --
THE COURT: All right.
We'll have to bring it forward enough so the jurors
can see it.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Agent Franey, you have in front of you --
MS. BEHENNA: Toward Luke?
MR. RYAN: Towards the witness.
MS. BEHENNA: Could you move it over to the witness
stand a little bit more.
THE COURT: Well, now the jury can't see it.
MS. BEHENNA: May I?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Agent Franey, you have a light pen in front of you, if you
would like to use that, or there is a pen that you can actually
mark on the computer with. Can you describe for the jury the
ATF office space that was located there on the 9th floor of the
Luke Franey - Direct
Murrah Building.
A. Yes, ma'am. Our office here, which is highlighted in -- it
would be in the southeast corner of the 9th floor of the
building. I'll just touch it. There we go.
That would be the entrance to our office, which was
our outside waiting room.
If you enter through this door here, which came into
the secretary's bay as you proceeded down the hallway here, you
would find our supervisor's office, Alex McCauley at the time.
If you continue down the hall, you would come to Special Agent
Donald Gillispie's office. Continuing eastbound, you would hit
Special Agent Harry Eberhardt and Mark Michalic's office.
If you continue down again, the last office on the
southeast side would be the office of Special Agent Delbert
Canopp, Tim Kelly, and Karen Simpson. There were actually
three agents that worked out of that office.
If you go to the end of the hallway, there would be
our computer room, where our LAN system was set up.
Directly north of that in here would be our outer
vault and then our evidence vault.
If you went westward back down the hall, you would
come to my office right here, Special Agent Darrell Edwards'
office here. We had a large conference room here, and then
this last office would be our fingerprinting room and
refrigerator room.
Luke Franey - Direct
Q. I believe there is a button on that pen. If you will keep
pushing it, all those -- there you go.
Approximately how many employees worked at the ATF
office?
A. There were 10 employees in the law enforcement office and
there were three employees who were inspectors, and they worked
on the -- actually the east end -- or the west end of the
building down there on the other side of the Secret Service
office.
Q. Can you point that out for the jury?
A. Yes, down in here. They actually had three inspectors that
worked there: Vernon Buster, Jim Staggs and Bruce Anderson.
Q. Is that what's called the compliance section of ATF?
A. That's correct. They handled the licensing and compliance
for alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives.
Q. And as criminal investigators of the ATF, agents like
yourself, you investigate criminal violations, much that you
described, or as you described earlier in our testimony?
A. That's correct.
Q. The compliance section does something different?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Can you tell the jury what you were doing the evening of
April 18, 1995?
A. On April 18, 1995, myself and several other agents in our
office were working a joint investigation with the Norman
Luke Franey - Direct
Police Department on an individual by the name of Anthony Wolf.
Anthony Wolf was a convicted felon, and we were at that time
making undercover purchases of firearms and narcotics from
Mr. Wolf. We worked late into the evening, actually into the
early morning hours of April 19, arriving back at home at about
1:30 that morning.
Q. Did you go into the office the morning of April 19?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you remember what time you got to the office?
A. Yes. I got there early. The night before, I talked with
my supervisor, and he instructed me to obtain an arrest warrant
on Mr. Wolf; so I arrived at the ATF office at approximately
7:30 that morning.
Q. And you went in to work on the arrest warrant?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you see any other ATF employees the morning of
April 19?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Can you tell the jury who you saw?
A. That morning when I arrived at work, I was the first one
there. The first person I heard come to the office besides me
was our secretary, Valerie Rowden. I didn't actually see her
that morning until after the bombing, but she was surprised
that someone was there before she was. And she called out to
see who was in the office; and I, of course, was back in the
Luke Franey - Direct
far east end and hollered that it was me, I was preparing an
arrest warrant. So she went on with her normal morning
procedures.
Shortly after that, my supervisor, Alex McCauley, came
in; and he and I were working around the office and discussing
me preparing and obtaining the arrest warrant.
Shortly after that, Harry Eberhardt came in the
office, and he and I had a brief conversation. He said he had
to run across the street because he had a jury out on an arson
trial and -- in the Federal Courthouse that was just south of
the Murrah Building; and he advised that he was going to run by
the credit union before he went.
And he left shortly before 9:00.
Q. Where was the credit union located?
A. The credit union was in the Murrah Building on the 3d
floor.
Q. Do you know where Don Gillispie was the morning of
April 19?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Where was he?
A. He was in Ponca City, testifying at a state arson trial.
Q. What about Delbert Canopp?
A. Delbert Canopp was actually on his way back to Oklahoma
City. He had picked up a witness for the federal grand jury,
and he was on his way back to the courthouse with the witness.
Luke Franey - Direct
Q. You didn't see either one of those guys in the office that
morning?
A. That morning, no, ma'am.
Q. What about Mark Michalic?
A. Mark Michalic worked late with me the evening before, and
he was on his way into the office.
Q. What about Karen Simpson?
A. Karen Simpson was actually in the Federal Courthouse just
south of the building. She was working with Delbert Canopp on
the investigation where they were presenting witnesses to the
federal grand jury.
Q. Tim Kelly?
A. Tim Kelly was in Ponca City working with Agent Gillispie
doing the state arson trial.
Q. Vernon Buster: Who was he?
A. Vernon Buster was in the ATF compliance office, which is on
the west end of the 9th floor.
Q. What about Jim Staggs?
A. Jim Staggs was also in the compliance office.
Q. Bruce Anderson?
A. Bruce Anderson was -- he was not in the office. He was on
his way to do a compliance inspection.
Q. What about Darrell Edwards?
A. Darrell Edwards was at home. He had worked late with me
the night before. And he was shot in the line of duty several
Luke Franey - Direct
years ago and has a lot of problems with his neck. And I had
called him on the phone right before 9:00 to tell him he needed
to get in there because we were going to arrest Mr. Wolf if I
obtained the arrest warrant.
Q. And you stated that you called him just before 9:00 on the
morning of April 19.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Can you tell the jury what happened shortly after 9:00?
A. I was talking to Agent Edwards on the phone, sitting at my
desk, which is going to be right in that area right there. My
desk actually abutted up to the common wall with DEA. I was
talking with Darrell about executing the arrest warrant on
Mr. Wolf, if we obtained it.
We were having a conversation relating to that when I
heard an explosion or a loud bang. I heard the girls in the
DEA office scream.
Q. What girls are you referring to?
A. The employees, the female support staff that worked for
DEA.
Q. Did you know them?
A. Yes, I did.
Yeah, you know, most of the agencies in Oklahoma City
are field offices, they're not division offices; and on the 9th
floor, we all worked together on various occasions, and we also
celebrated together holidays and whatnot. Everybody was a
Luke Franey - Direct
small outpost (sic), so we all knew each other fairly well on
the 9th floor. And I know Carol was in there. Her desk was
basically right across the wall from me. And we could beat on
the wall back and forth and talk; so I knew -- I could hear
them that morning when I was at my desk preparing the
warrant -- I could hear people in there talking. Specifically,
I didn't know who it was; but I could hear the conversation
through the wall. They were laughing and joking. But I heard
the loud bang, I heard all the girls scream; and then I heard a
loud rumbling sound.
At that point, I didn't know what was going on. And
it happened so fast, but I remember the three distinct actions.
Q. What happened to the phone?
A. I was talking on the phone with Darrell. After the
rumbling noise, that's when everything came apart. I remember
the walls coming in, the ceiling falling down. My most
distinct memory is the fluorescent lighting fixture above my
desk falling at me, and I threw up my arm to attempt to block
it.
The next thing I remember is just being hit with a
very strong gust of wind or a pressure blast. And the next
thing I remember, I ended up back in this hallway, in this area
right here, kind of halfway in my office and halfway in the
hallway, covered with some rubble.
I really didn't know what happened at that point. I
Luke Franey - Direct
looked around, clouds of dust and smoke in the office.
I could hear people yelling and screaming. I had no
idea what had happened.
Q. So what did you do? Did you stay there? Did you get up?
A. First thing I did -- I still had the phone in my hand, what
was left of it, the phone and the cord -- and you know, I mean,
there was nothing on there -- calling for Darrell on the phone.
I didn't know what had happened.
I threw that down, and I jumped up. And I could run
to about this point right here, you know, about three or four
steps; and that's where the building collapsed, basically.
Q. You could see that it was gone?
A. Oh, yes. I could see the drop-off straight down to the
rubble. At that point, I could see out the north side of the
building.
Q. What did you see as you looked out the north side of the
building?
A. What I remember the most was a big wall of orange flame
that was coming out from where the Athenian Building was across
the street.
Q. What else did you do?
A. At that point, I mean I didn't think I could get out of the
building because the -- the way it kind of ended like --
Q. Are you drawing where the floor was?
A. Yes, ma'am. I'm drawing on here where I could get to; and
Luke Franey - Direct
at that point, I couldn't get out of the building. The floor
basically dropped off to all the way to the south retaining
wall; so I just had kind of had like a little area I could get
in.
Q. And the little area is that east end of the building that
you're --
A. Yes, ma'am. That's correct.
Q. Why don't you go ahead and take all those dots off, Agent
Franey, and we'll do it again.
A. Okay.
Q. Go ahead and just mark again where you remember the
building -- the floor was.
A. Okay. At the time, that's what I could see right there,
was this was my position in this area back here, was where I
could walk around in.
Q. Did you see Alex McCauley?
A. At that time, I did not.
Q. What about Valerie Rowden?
A. No, ma'am, I did not see them.
Q. I assume you attempted to get out of the building and you
could not. What did you do next?
A. At that point, I was confused to really what had happened.
I performed a -- just checking myself, you know. I didn't know
if I was injured or not. I had some minor scrapes and cuts but
no major injuries. I walked around. I looked out the south
Luke Franey - Direct
side of the building. I could see people running up to the
building, you know; and there were people down on the bottom
floor.
I really couldn't tell what had happened or how bad it
was at that point.
I found in the rubble in the office a handheld radio
that we utilize; and I turned the radio on, and I began calling
for help, see if I could get anybody to respond.
Q. What did you say?
A. I said that somebody blew up the building and if anybody
can hear this, they needed to get in there because we needed
help. There was a lot of people hurt. I could hear people
screaming.
At that time, I didn't know how bad it was.
Agent Michalic was coming into work, and he was right
at the point work where our radios were just kind of --
sometimes he could hear me, sometimes he couldn't. And he kept
saying, you know, What are you saying, what are you saying?
Okay, somebody, the building is gone, it's destroyed;
you guys need to get in here.
And I think at that point, he started realizing just
through my voice about how urgent was.
Agent Canopp came in -- he was on the radio. He was
on the way bringing a witness over to the grand jury, and he
asked me what was going on. And I told him something bad
Luke Franey - Direct
happened at the building and he needed to get down there.
Q. After you made the call on the radio, did you continue to
walk around the office, what was left of the ATF office?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do next?
A. I found an evidence poster board, something similar to
that, that we had used at a previous trial. And I flipped it
over on the back and wrote "ATF trapped, 9th floor," put it in
the window, over here in this office looking out over the front
side of the building, which is the south side of the building.
Q. Agent Franey, would you mind clicking the pen and getting
those lines off; and let me show you a photograph that I don't
believe has been introduced. This won't go to the jury.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: What's the number?
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1012 and ask you if
you can identify that.
A. Yes, I can.
Q. And what is that?
A. That is a photograph of the south side of Alfred E. Murrah
Building that -- after the bombing.
Q. That's the plaza level?
A. That is correct.
MS. BEHENNA: I move for the admission of Government's
Exhibit 1012, your Honor.
Luke Franey - Direct
MR. JONES: No objection your Honor.
THE COURT: 1012 is received.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Let me show you a closeup. In particular, let me have you
look to the window section. And can you tell the jury what
that is?
A. Yes, ma'am. That appears to be a photograph of the top
three floors of the southeast portion of the Murrah Building;
and that white sign there appears to be the sign that I placed
in the window.
Q. That is the ATF space, the south side of the ATF space?
A. That's correct. This top floor here is.
Q. Let me have you look at Government's Exhibit 976. And I
don't believe this has been introduced.
Can you identify that?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. What is that?
A. That is photograph of me.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, I move for the admission of
Government's Exhibit 976.
MR. JONES: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 976 received.
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Can you tell the jury what they're seeing?
A. That is a photograph that was taken the morning of the
Luke Franey - Direct
bombing. I'm standing in the -- what's left of our offices
there looking out the back window.
Q. The south side?
A. I'm sorry. The south side of the building, looking over
the plaza level. The sign to the right there is the sign that
I made to put in the window, hoping that someone would be able
to get up there and get me out.
Looks like I'm either talking or yelling to people
down on the plaza level.
Q. Were some of your agents down to plaza level?
A. Yes. I mean at that time, I could see Alex McCauley, my
supervisor, and also Valerie Rowden. Prior to me being able to
see them on the plaza, I thought that they were killed or lost
in the explosion. I saw them down there. I also saw Agent
Michalic and Agent Edwards. I saw some of the agents from DEA
that were down there.
Q. Did you sometime that morning while you were waiting to be
rescued look for survivors?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Can you tell the jury about that?
A. When I realized I couldn't get out and I was in there, and
I called on the radio and advised the agents that I could get
ahold of that we needed help. I remembered at that time
hearing the screams of the girls in DEA. I couldn't get out
the front way to get to their office; so I went back to our
Luke Franey - Direct
evidence vault area, which is on the east end almost, where the
letter F is.
Q. Agent Franey, I went ahead and put up on the screen for you
the 9th floor floor plan. Go ahead. I'm sorry.
A. Okay. I came through here. I entered our outer evidence
vault. I climbed up through what was left of the ceiling on
some pipes and dropped down here into our evidence vault.
I proceeded to this wall right here and kicked the
shelves out and kicked a hole into what was left of the DEA
office.
When I got through, I realized that there wasn't
really a lot left of the DEA office. It -- best I can
remember, it was like this. There was just a very small
portion of the office there that I could get in.
You know, I looked for the girls and I called out a
little bit verbally to see if I could get any responses. I
thought at that time they might have been trapped in the rubble
there, but I realized that that wasn't the case.
Q. Couldn't find them?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. What did you do next?
A. I climbed back through the hole and into our evidence
vault, back into the little island I could get around on back
in here, and talked to Agent Michalic on the radio, advised him
that, you know, I didn't find anybody over in DEA and it looks
Luke Franey - Direct
like they were all lost.
And he advised me to stay away from that portion of
the building at that time. On the ground, I guess they were
getting reports that it was very unstable, wanted me to stay
back in that corner.
So at that point, for an hour, hour and a half, I was
kind of stuck in that office. There were several escape plans
they were trying. They had tried to get a helicopter to come
in from the National Guard. It was going to sling-load me out
of the window, but they cancelled that due to the dangers, you
know, of knocking debris down on rescuers or hurting injured
people. They just kept on saying, Hang on, we're going to get
you out, we're going to get you out.
Q. How long were you in the Murrah Building?
A. Till approximately 10:30.
Q. Before we move on and talk about that, let me show you
Government's Exhibit 968, which I believe has already been
admitted. That's the north side of the Murrah Building.
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you see it?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And can you with your pointer show the jury -- I mean,
you've drawn it on the floor plan. Can you show the jury where
you looked for the DEA girls?
A. It would be in this area here, behind that -- the tarp or
Luke Franey - Direct
roof that is --
Q. Is that part of the roof that's hanging down?
A. Yes, ma'am. That's correct.
Q. You stated earlier that you were in the building for about
an hour and a half?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What happened later that morning?
A. Well, I saw several people coming up to the 9th floor.
They were looking for survivors, and I talked to Larry Morgan
with IRS CID. He had come somewhere around 10:00. He had come
up to the 9th floor to the west side of the big crevice there.
I talked to him briefly; and he said, "Hang on, we're going to
try to get you out." You know, obviously, couldn't get across
the hole there; but they were working on things.
A short time after that -- I don't know exactly how
long -- I heard a bunch of loud screams coming from the south
side of the building out on the plaza level, ran to the window,
and looked. And I could see a large group of people, all the
rescuers and whatnot running from the building.
I became alarmed at that time. Obviously, it didn't
appear to be something good.
I got on the radio and I was calling to Michalic.
Q. Agent Michalic?
A. The agent on the ground that I had radio contact with, and
I asked him what the problem was.
Luke Franey - Direct
Q. What did you learn?
A. I learned that some of the rescuers had believed they saw a
bomb and that they thought it was going to go off and that I
should find something sturdy to hang onto.
Q. What did you do?
A. I mean, I was -- the first -- when the bomb went off the
first time, it happened so fast, you didn't have time to get
scared.
When he told me that and I realized at that point I
didn't think I could go anywhere -- you know, I was at the one
little island I could get around on. And when he said that, I
mean, it was just like someone reaches in and grabs your heart
and squishes it, because I had nowhere to go if there was
another one. I didn't really think I could do anything about
it.
Q. Were you scared?
A. Oh, yes. Very scared.
Q. What did you do?
A. And at that point, you just -- I just made a decision that
I'd rather -- I'd rather die falling off the building than go
through something like that again; so I got as far as I could,
as close to the crevice as I could get, and started kicking a
hole in the wall and got through --
Q. Let me go back to the floor plan.
A. Okay.
Luke Franey - Direct
Q. This is Government's Exhibit 952.
A. The crevice started -- the big crater started somewhere in
here. And I could get to about right here; so I kicked a hole
in that wall and got as far as I could till the floor stopped;
and then I crawled on the outside of the building onto the
window ledge and proceeded down the window ledge on the outside
of the building, holding onto the frames and whatnot, and came
down here till the floor started again, jumped in on the floor,
climbed over some rubble and got -- found this stairwell over
here.
When I got to that stairwell there -- I mean at that
time I was still under the impression that there was a bomb;
that it was going to go off. So I went as fast as I could down
the stairwell. I remember when I was running down the
stairwell holding onto the handrail and it being covered in
blood, the floor covered in blood -- sliding, going down some
of the landings and stairways -- from people that had been
carried out or made it out before me.
I got down to the bottom floor and came out; and at
that time, people had already started coming back up to the
building to resume the rescue effort.
Q. Agent Franey, I want to put up Government's Exhibit 1012,
which we previously talked about.
And can you just point for the jury where it is you
climbed on the outside of that window?
Luke Franey - Direct
A. That would be this area right here.
Q. Is that ledge level?
A. No, ma'am, it's not.
Q. Can you tell the jury what it looks like?
A. It's at about 45 degree angle. It's pretty steep. Comes
at about like that.
Q. How did you stand on that?
A. As best as I could. I mean, I just realized -- I really
thought at that time that, you know, that obviously there was
another bomb. I mean, something happened the first time; so I
mean I was just going as fast as I could across that. I was
holding onto what was left of the window frames, you know, the
jagged glass and whatnot. I was just racing against the clock.
And I went across there as fast as I could. Didn't really
think about being how far up or how steep it was at that point.
I just tried not to look down.
Q. After you get down to the plaza level, do you realize that
you've been injured?
A. Yes. Some of the -- some of the marshals that were there
came up and grabbed me. I had some cuts on my head and my
hands. I was bleeding a little bit from the head, and they
brought me to the triage unit there and just wiped me up,
bandaged my hands there.
Q. Were there other ATF employees that were injured in that
building?
Luke Franey - Direct
A. Yes, ma'am, there were.
Q. Do you know how many?
A. There were five employees in the building when the bomb
went off. Two of the employees were hurt severely, our two
compliance officers, Jim Staggs and Vernon Buster.
Jim Staggs received serious head wounds, bleeding very
badly. He was helped out of the building, as was Vernon
Buster, by DEA employee Regina Bonny. She got them downstairs.
They both spent extended periods of time in the hospital.
Our office manager, secretary, Valerie Rowden,
received fragmentation cuts from flying glass and
fragmentation; but she was not injured severely. I think she
just went to a triage unit down front, got Band-Aided up,
bandaged up, and went back to work.
MS. BEHENNA: Can I have just a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. BEHENNA: That's all we have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Jones, do you have questions?
MR. JONES: A few, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Mr. Franey, I want to show you some photographs first
before I show them to the jury to see whether you can identify
them, because you and I have not met before, have we?
A. No, sir.
Luke Franey - Cross
Q. You've not been interviewed by the defense?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. So I simply want to show these and see if you
can identify them; and if you can, just tell me that you can
without further describing them.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So this is just for you and the Government and myself and
the Court.
Do you recognize this picture?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. All right. Do you recognize this one?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And do you recognize this one?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Now, if I may, let me go back to the first one; and I will
mark it and ask you to tell me what it is.
MR. JONES: If I could, your Honor, may I ask
Ms. Behenna what was the number of the photograph that you had
inside the ATF office?
MS. BEHENNA: 976.
MR. JONES: Then I'll just call this 976A.
You don't have a 976A, do you, Ms. Behenna?
MS. BEHENNA: No.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. I'll just call this Defendant's Exhibit 976A; and I'll show
Luke Franey - Cross
it now to you, sir, first and ask if you can identify 976A.
And if so, would you tell me what it is.
THE COURT: 976, I think you said.
MR. JONES: I'm sorry. 976A.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Can you identify this now?
A. This appears to be a photograph taken from the west side of
the ATF office after the bombing.
Q. All right. Are you sufficiently familiar with what's shown
in the photograph to show the jury on the chart where -- what
office this would be? By the chart, I mean the diagram behind
you, sir.
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. All right. Can you just take the pointer and show there on
the chart or floor plan?
THE WITNESS: May I get up, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
THE WITNESS: I believe it's a photograph that would
show a view from this area here, looking this way into the ATF
office.
MR. JONES: All right. Thank you, sir.
Your Honor, I ask to publish this exhibit. First I
ask for its admission.
MS. BEHENNA: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 976A is received and may be published.
Luke Franey - Cross
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Now, as I understand it, Mr. Franey, your office would be
back beyond this way; and then a little bit to the north?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, let me ask you, please, if you can identify what we
will call as Defendant's Exhibit 976B. Can you identify that?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. What is 976B, sir?
A. That is also a photograph taken of the ATF office on the
9th floor after the bombing, taken from the west side, looking
eastward into the office.
Q. And 976B --
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, that's already being
published to the jury. I don't think it's been admitted.
MR. JONES: I'll move its admission.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. 976B is -- shows much of the same thing that's in 976A,
doesn't it, except it's taken from a little further back?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you can see there, can you not, the hole where the
blast of the explosion had blown away the floor?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right.
MR. JONES: Has this been published to the jury, your
Honor?
Luke Franey - Cross
THE COURT: No. It hasn't been offered.
MR. JONES: I'm sorry. I thought that I offered it.
I move its admission.
MS. BEHENNA: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: It's received and may be published.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Now, this area here is where the floor has been blown away.
Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Thank you. Just to publish to me and to myself and the
Government and the Court, I have Defendant's Exhibit 976C and
ask if you can identify this.
A. Yes, sir, I can.
Q. And what is that, sir.
A. That is a photograph of the ATF office on the 9th floor of
the Murrah Building sometime after the bombing.
Q. And again, that's another picture of the same general area
as the first two except from a little different perspective.
Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right.
MR. JONES: I move the admission of Defendant's
Exhibit 976C.
MS. BEHENNA: No objection.
THE COURT: It's received and may be shown.
Luke Franey - Cross
MR. JONES: Mr. Franey -- with the Court's permission,
may I ask Ms. Behenna -- rather than to use another exhibit,
may I simply see your exhibit that's the same as this?
All right. Thank you.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. I'm going to go ahead and show first just you and the Court
and the Government and myself, Mr. Franey, this photograph, so
I won't publish it to the jury yet, and ask you if you
recognize what I have marked as Defendant's Exhibit 976D.
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. And that's you, isn't it?
A. That's correct.
MR. JONES: Your Honor, I move the admission of
Defendant's 976D.
MS. BEHENNA: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Mr. Franey, as I understand it, this is you in the window
and over here is the sign?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, are these the window ledges that you testified to that
you crawled on?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you came out of which window? This one? Or another
one?
Luke Franey - Cross
A. Actually, no, that's not correct. The wall where I was
standing there, right next to me, had a hole kicked through it,
as did the next wall down to the -- moving westward. And after
that wall was kicked through is when I went out on the window
ledge.
Q. All right. So the wall here -- this wall right here, you
kicked a hole in?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then this wall, you kicked a hole in. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then some -- you went beyond this way?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
MR. JONES: And then if I may see . . .
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1012, which has
already been admitted. Do you remember this photograph?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Now, do I understand that you came out from the window
somewhere along here and walked across here to this area?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. Now, that's at an angle of about 45 degrees on
the window ledge?
A. That's just an estimate; but yes, sir, that's what I
believe.
Q. And when you found this barrier or firewall, whatever we
Luke Franey - Cross
want to call it, like right here -- do you see that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Actually, the one you encountered was here, wasn't it?
A. That's correct.
Q. And were you able to go from this 45-degree approximate
slant across into here?
A. Yes, sir; but I went on the inside of the building, on the
inside, stepped around the wall to the inside.
Q. What do you mean on the inside step?
A. Well, it's difficult to show from this angle, but I was
going on the window ledge here holding onto what was left of
the window frames. When I came to that concrete retaining wall
or firewall, however you referred to it, I did not go on the
outside of that. I went on the inside of the building,
stepping across back to the outside of the window frame.
Q. All right. So did you come across -- if I may show you
again 976C -- did you come across this inside ledge here where
my finger is?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. So how much of your journey was actually on the
inside, as opposed to how much was on the outside?
A. The only part where I came inside there, crossing the gape,
or the hole, was where that concrete retaining wall was.
Q. Can you -- you passed one of those?
A. To the best of my knowledge.
Luke Franey - Cross
Q. All right, sir. Now, you have identified the names of the
agents and employees of the ATF and where they were on the
morning of the 19th; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember the name of the arson trial in Ponca
City -- the name of the defendant?
A. I'm trying to recall.
No, sir, I can't recall it right now.
Q. It wasn't one of your cases, was it?
A. No, sir, it was not.
Q. Now, Mr. Franey, you indicated that you and perhaps other
agents had been out on the night of April 18 working on a joint
investigation with the Norman Police Department. Is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And this was an investigation concerning a man named Wolf?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, was the DEA in any way involved in that investigation
along with you and the Norman Police Department?
A. No, sir.
Q. And were your activities with respect to that investigation
also in Norman, or were part of them in Oklahoma City?
A. They were actually in Norman.
Q. So you weren't anywhere in Oklahoma City on the night of
the 18th working on that investigation except if you might have
Luke Franey - Cross
gone to your office?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, within the ATF office there or elsewhere in the
building, you indicated that there was an evidence locker over
on the -- would it be the east wall?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is that that sort of long rectangular space there?
A. That's correct.
Q. What was stored in that room?
A. That room is going to be document evidence and firearm
evidence that was either seized or purchased or retained during
investigations.
Q. Were there any explosives stored in there?
A. No, sir, there were not.
Q. Did -- to your knowledge -- did the ATF have any explosives
stored anywhere in the building?
A. No. All explosive evidence by ATF is kept at the evidence
storage bunker, which is an explosive bunker shared with the
Oklahoma City Police Department's bomb squad, the highway
patrol, and the FBI, which is kept at the Oklahoma evidence
bunker at air depot, at I-240 in Oklahoma City.
Q. I'm sorry. And that's a considerable distance away from
the Alfred P. Murrah Building, isn't it?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, when this alarm was sounded or you heard that there
Luke Franey - Cross
might be another bomb in the building or what was thought to be
a bomb, were you ever able to find out or satisfy yourself what
might have caused that commotion?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what was that, sir?
A. I believe at that time someone had either observed a box
with wires coming out of it, or it could have been an inert Law
rocket or a TOW missile that Customs had. I'm not sure exactly
which one it was.
Q. This was an inert missile that was not held by the ATF?
A. The TOW missile that was found? Yes, I believe so.
Q. It was held by another law enforcement agency?
A. That's correct.
Q. So far as you know, there was nothing in the ATF's
possession that could have contributed to the explosion.
A. No, that's correct. There was not.
Q. Now, these agents that you have identified here: Were any
of these individuals part of the ATF contingent at Mt. Carmel
outside Waco?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. Who were those?
A. Special Agent Mark Michalic and special Agent Harry
Eberhardt were involved in the execution of the search warrant
on February 28, 1993.
Q. Now, is Mr. Michalic still with the ATF?
Luke Franey - Cross
A. Yes, sir, he is.
Q. And is he in the Oklahoma City office?
A. He's actually assigned to Denver now.
Q. All right. And Mr. Eberhardt: Is he still with the ATF?
A. Yes, he is.
Q. And where is he assigned?
A. To the Oklahoma City field office.
MR. JONES: I don't believe I have any further
questions. Thank you, Mr. Franey.
THE COURT: Do you have any follow-up questions?
MS. BEHENNA: Just a couple.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, if I could ask Mr. Jones for
the defense exhibits, since I didn't have copies of them. I
wanted to go over those pictures again.
THE COURT: Yes. All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Agent Franey, let me show you Defense Exhibit 976A. Was
that board there from the morning of April 19, 1995?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Let me show you Defendant's Exhibit 976B. Is that the hole
you observed that morning?
A. Yes, it is. It -- that photograph -- you know, that is
after the rescue efforts had come and they cleared a lot of the
Luke Franey - Redirect
rubble out. But after the explosion on the morning of the
19th, this area back in here was all covered with rubble,
fragmentation, things like that; so that is why at the time I
had to go on the outside of the building and on the ledge and
climbed back through.
Q. And there was no board there for you to leave the building?
A. That's correct.
Q. And if you could have left the building that morning, would
you have done so?
A. Yes, I would have.
Q. I mean, other than going outside the ledge, I mean.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Let me show you Defendant's Exhibit 976D, I believe. Do
you remember that picture?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you have a box in your hand in that picture, Agent
Franey? Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What do you have?
A. That is a lockbox that I kept in my desk.
Q. What's in it?
A. Savings bonds that I'm saving for my daughter's college --
college time.
MS. BEHENNA: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Anything else of this witness?
MR. JONES: Nothing further. Thank you.
THE COURT: Is he to be excused?
MS. BEHENNA: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Agreed.
You may step down. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Next, please.
MR. HARTZLER: Government calls Bill Sweet.
Mr. Mackey will question him.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(William Sweet affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: William Glen Sweet, S-W-E-E-T.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Sweet.
A. Good morning.
Q. Would you tell the jury where you live?
A. 10141 Wavell Road, Fairfax, Virginia, 22032.
Q. Is that a suburb of Washington, D.C.?
William Sweet - Direct
A. Yes, it is.
Q. How long have you lived in the D.C. area?
A. About 20 years now.
Q. What's your current employment?
A. I'm a self-employed direct response marketing consultant.
Q. And what do you do?
A. It deals with marketing, but the key here is direct
response. What I do is quantifiable. To give an example, if
you were to watch a television program and you saw dial 1(800)
and order the product right now, that's direct response.
Q. You're in sales?
A. Marketing.
Q. Marketing.
A. There is a difference.
Q. Okay. And I should know the difference. I'm sorry.
What's your educational background?
A. I have a degree in accounting.
Q. Was that awarded from college?
A. Yes. Ithica College in New York.
Q. From where?
A. Ithica College in New York state.
Q. Did you ever work for a business known as Liberty Lobby?
A. Yes.
Q. And during what time period?
A. I worked there for approximately 10 years, closer to 11
William Sweet - Direct
now. I resigned from there in November of '95.
Q. So you would have started sometime in '84-85?
A. I believe it was '85.
Q. '85? And what positions did you hold with Liberty Lobby?
A. I started off as a comptroller for one of the subsidiaries.
I had management positions in personnel administration,
subscription, and direct marketing, marketing director, and
operations management.
Q. What were your title and duties during 1993 through the
time period when you left?
A. I was director of marketing in operations management.
Q. Tell the jury what Liberty Lobby is. What business is it
engaged in?
A. It's a populist institution which was originally founded in
1955. They -- an organization that's a conservative
organization. They oppose, to say, the NAFTA treaties. They
believe in right to carry and bear arms.
Q. Do they publish a newspaper?
A. They publish The Spotlight newspaper, yes.
Q. And how long has The Spotlight newspaper been published?
A. It's in its 21st year.
Q. During the time that you were circulations manager, that is
'93, '94, '95 period that I'm focusing on, approximately what
was the circulation for The Spotlight newspaper?
A. The press run was about 110,000.
William Sweet - Direct
Q. Mr. Sweet, let me direct your attention to the fall, late
summer, fall of 1993 and ask if you, on behalf of Spotlight,
were engaged in an offering of a debit calling card to your
readership.
A. Yes, we were.
Q. Were you personally involved in making decisions that would
lead to that offering?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And did, in fact, Spotlight do so?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. And approximately when?
A. The initial decision, I believe, was made at the end of
August, first part of September to go forward with the project.
Q. Could you outline to the jury a little bit about what that
offering was, what the debit card provided, and what service
you would have offered to those readers?
A. It's a prepaid debit calling card. You would prepay an
amount -- in this case it was 30, 50 or $100 for a time. It
was 25 cents a minute. You could call anywhere in the
continental United States at that time for seven days a week,
24 hours a day.
Q. Was it necessary for the purchaser of the card to pay in
advance?
A. Yes. That's correct. Pay in advance.
Q. And was a PIN number assigned?
William Sweet - Direct
A. A PIN number was assigned to each card, yes.
Q. How would that be used?
A. You have to dial in on a 1-800 number and follow the
prompts. The prompts are asking for your PIN number, and then
you can make your phone call.
Q. Once you owned a Spotlight calling card, could you recharge
or apply more dollars to that account?
A. Yes, you can.
Q. How would you do so?
A. Typically, people would send in cash, money order, or
check.
Q. And when you bought or when a customer bought a Spotlight
calling card, did they receive anything from Spotlight or
someone acting on behalf of Spotlight?
A. Yes. They received their card.
Q. And anything in addition to the card itself?
A. There would be a little letter, brochure, and an envelope,
what we call a No. 9 envelope in case they wanted to reorder
more cards.
Q. Were coupons used by The Spotlight customers?
A. Yes. When you -- in the envelope was a coupon book. It
was -- the outside of it was a laminated piece of paper which
had the calling card on it; and immediately following were
eight coupons that you would use to send back to recharge your
card.
William Sweet - Direct
Q. And what was Spotlight's financial interest in this
arrangement? Why did you make the offering?
A. Spotlight received a commission of 5 cents for each minute.
Q. So approximately 20 percent?
A. 20 percent.
Q. And would that 20 percent be of both the initial purchase
as well as any subsequent recharges?
A. That's correct.
Q. Mr. Sweet, look at Government's Exhibit 480 in front of you
in the accordion folder. What is that, please.
A. This is a copy of the wrap that went around The Spotlight
which we used to kick off the program.
Q. Does it describe some of the features of the calling card
that you've described to this jury?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I move to admit Government's
Exhibit 480.
MS. RAMSEY: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 480 received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, did you have a Spotlight calling card yourself?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you use it?
A. Frequently.
Q. Describe to the jury what you would hear if you wanted to
William Sweet - Direct
place a Spotlight debit card call.
A. You would dial in, as I mentioned, the 1(800) number; and
the first thing you would hear is "Welcome to the Spotlight
calling card." Then you'd hear a series of prompts. The first
one would be to enter your opinion number. Then after entering
your PIN number, it would tell you how many dollars you had
left on the card. Then you would prompt it to dial, punch in
the number that you wished to call; and after the number had
gone through it would tell you problems -- well, it would tell
you exactly how many minutes you had remaining on the card.
Q. Was it part of your responsibilities to keep track of the
initial applications and the subsequent payments on these
charges for The Spotlight customers?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And would you tell the jury from a business standpoint what
kind of records were kept and who kept them?
A. Typically, you would respond with a coupon. And you would
indicate the amount that you received -- excuse me -- that you
would want to purchase. That would come in to our mail room.
We would open up your envelope and take out the document and
verify the amount and it would get processed.
There was two ways to go with that. One way, we kept
track of the money; and the other way, the documents were used
for posting. And the two had to balance, so you got your card.
Q. So the envelope that contained that payment: Did it become
William Sweet - Direct
a record that Spotlight used and kept?
A. Yes, the envelope does. We use that -- on the envelope, we
would date-stamp the envelope the day it was opened in the mail
room. The dollar amount that was inside the envelope was
recorded, the initials of the person who opened the thing, and
then we would have a code for the revenue source. In this
case, it was the telephone card; so the envelope would then
be -- is retained as a -- really, a balance against the deposit
of all cash by revenue source.
Q. And what code was written on the outside of the envelope to
tell you at Spotlight that this was a payment on a debit card?
A. TC.
Q. Standing for?
A. Telephone card.
Q. And what use was made of the coupon that was enclosed in
each payment?
A. The coupon was then -- it was also date-stamped and
validated to the amount that was -- of cash that was received.
It was -- then became a part of what we called a remittance
letter and was transferred to Boston Financial Data Services
for actual setup of the account.
Q. Did you keep copies of the coupons on hand at Spotlight?
A. Yes. As a matter of course, we kept copies of the coupons
just to make sure that, No. 1, nothing got lost in the process
and (2) that if there had been any questions, we would have
William Sweet - Direct
copies of them.
Q. Could you by benefit of these records reconstruct the
payment history on any person's account, then?
A. Yes, we could. Once we could establish all the payments
that came through, we could actually trace right through every
payment that was received.
Q. Did you at Spotlight keep the original application -- that
is, the first application for the card on file?
A. The very first application that came in, yes, we did. We
kept that.
Q. Take a look, please, Mr. Sweet, at Government's Exhibit
481. Do you recognize that document?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Let me start by asking you this question: After the
bombing in Oklahoma City, Mr. Sweet, did representatives of the
Government ask you to search your records for any records
concerning the customer named Daryl Bridges?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. And is Government's Exhibit 481 one such record that you
located?
A. Yes.
Q. As to that customer?
A. Yes.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I move to admit Government's
Exhibit 481.
William Sweet - Direct
MS. RAMSEY: No objection.
THE COURT: 481 received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, I apologize for what we've done to your
application there. It has some smudges from Fingerprint; but
let me direct your attention to the date that appears here in
the lower right-hand corner. Can you read that?
A. That is November 12, 1993.
Q. And what does that tell you about when Spotlight received
this application?
A. That was the date that this was opened in the mail room.
Q. And what was the name of the customer and address that was
given to you in this application?
A. It reads, "Daryl Bridges, care of 3616 North Van Dyke Road,
Decker, Michigan, 48426/TDC."
Q. Do you have any knowledge what the initials TDC stand for?
A. I probably at one time understood; but at this point, I
can't recall what that means.
Q. Did you receive a payment -- or you at Spotlight -- in
connection with this application?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Take a look at Government's Exhibit 482 and also
Government's Exhibit 483. Tell the Judge, please, what each of
those are. First, 482 and then 483.
A. 482 is a United States postal money order in the amount of
William Sweet - Direct
$50.
Q. Is that the money order received in connection with the
application of Mr. Bridges?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. What is 483?
A. 483 is the envelope that was received at the mail room of
Spotlight.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I'd move to admit
Government's Exhibits 483 and 482.
MS. RAMSEY: No objection.
THE COURT: They are received.
MR. MACKEY: With the Court's permission, could I
exchange with the witness and give him a better copy?
THE COURT: Sure.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Can you read that now, Mr. Sweet?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. Can you tell the jury what these figures represent? The
numbers, I mean.
A. That is November 7, 1993. That's the year -- the date that
this was purchased.
Q. And to whom is this money order made payable?
A. It's made payable to the Spotlight.
Q. And who is the purchaser or the remitter?
A. It says the purchaser is from -- Daryl Bridges.
William Sweet - Direct
Q. I show you at this time Government's Exhibit 483. Could
you just describe to the jury what that exhibit is, please.
A. That is the envelope in which the application came from
Daryl Bridges.
Q. Does it bear the same date of November 12, 1993?
A. That is correct.
Q. And these notations and handwriting at the bottom:
Describe what those represent.
A. That represented that there was $50 received inside this,
and it was for the telephone card. The CT (sic) means
telephone card.
Q. Mr. Sweet, before coming to court today, did you attempt to
locate any other payments that Spotlight received in the name
of or on behalf of Daryl Bridges?
A. Yes. On several occasions we searched extensively for
documentation.
Q. Let me do it this way, if I can, Mr. Sweet: Can you take a
moment to go through the rest of the exhibits that are in front
of you and see if you can identify those as the subsequent
recharges to that same account after opening the card in
November of 1993.
A. Yes. That's what these are.
Q. You've seen those before coming to the stand this morning;
correct?
A. Correct.
William Sweet - Direct
Q. Do you find Government's Exhibit 485, a money order dated
February 18, 1994; corresponding envelope -- excuse me --
coupon, 486, and envelope, 487?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you see a more legible copy of the coupon marked
Exhibit 486A?
A. Yes.
Q. Do each of those exhibits relate to a recharge of the
Bridges account in the amount of $50 in February of 1994?
A. Yes.
MR. MACKEY: Would move to admit 485, 486, 486A, 487.
MS. RAMSEY: Your Honor, if I might have just a
moment.
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. RAMSEY: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: They're received. 485, 486, 486A and 487.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Did Spotlight receive a third payment on the Bridges
account in or about August of 1994?
A. That is correct. We have one here for September 2.
Q. All right. Take a look, please, at Government's Exhibit
488, 488A, 490, 490A, and 491. Are those in that order the
money order, coupon, and envelope relating to the third payment
on the Bridges account?
A. That is correct.
William Sweet - Direct
MR. MACKEY: Move to admit those exhibits, please,
your Honor.
MS. RAMSEY: No objection.
THE COURT: They're received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Did you find evidence in your records of a fourth payment
in the amount of $30 docketed in at Spotlight in October of
1994?
A. Yes.
Q. Are those exhibits, for the record, 492, being a money
order; 493, being the coupon; 493A, being a more legible copy
of the coupon, and 49 -- excuse me -- 493A, a legible copy of
the coupon, and 494, the envelope? Do you find those records
before you?
A. That is correct.
Q. Are those the records that prove payment or recharge on the
Bridges account of $30 in the fall of 1994?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. MACKEY: Move to admit those exhibits, please,
your Honor.
MS. RAMSEY: No objection.
THE COURT: What are they again? 492?
MR. MACKEY: 493, 493A, and 494.
THE COURT: Yes. They're received.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor.
William Sweet - Direct
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Did Spotlight receive a fifth payment from the Daryl
Bridges customer?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see 495, 496, 496A, and 497?
A. Yes.
Q. And do those records relate to a payment in the amount of
$100 received in November, 1994?
A. That is correct.
MR. MACKEY: Would move to admit those exhibits,
please, your Honor.
MS. RAMSEY: No objection.
THE COURT: They're received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Was a sixth payment received from the Bridges customer in
or about February, 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you find before you Government's Exhibits 498, 499,
499A, and 500?
A. Yes.
Q. For the record, are each of those the money order, coupon,
legible copy of the coupon, and envelope for that payment
received in February, 1995?
A. That is correct.
MR. MACKEY: Move to admit those exhibits, please,
William Sweet - Direct
your Honor.
MS. RAMSEY: No objection.
THE COURT: They're received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Finally, Mr. Sweet, was a seventh payment received from the
Daryl Bridges or on the Bridges account in or about late
February, 1995, in the amount of $100?
A. That is correct.
Q. Do you see before you Government's Exhibit 501, being the
money order, 502 and 502A being the coupon and legible copy
thereof, and 503 being the envelope?
A. Yes, that's correct.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I would move to admit those
exhibits, please.
MS. RAMSEY: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Based on your search of the records of Spotlight, do they
constitute the payment history on the Bridges account for that
card?
A. Correct. We have -- those -- there were some apparently
duplicate credits to the account --
Q. All right.
A. -- which resulted in internal problems that we had just
getting information processed. And there were two occasions
William Sweet - Direct
there was an additional credit, but those were reversed.
Q. The documents that Spotlight received in the way of money
orders: Are all of those before you as you have identified
this morning to the jury?
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you know an individual named Paul Angel?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And who is he?
A. He is a gentleman that worked with me on the prepaid
calling card program.
Q. And do you know an individual named Keith Bower?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And who is he?
A. He was a technical expert in the calling card process
working for West Coast Technologies.
Q. Mr. Sweet, do you have before you Government's Exhibit 484?
A. Yes.
Q. It's been previously admitted in evidence. Would you
simply open the front cover of that exhibit and direct your
attention to the left-hand side of that open exhibit. Do you
see the name Paul Angel?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see the name Bill Sweet?
A. Misspelled, but yes.
Q. How is it spelled in that book?
William Sweet - Direct
A. S-U-I-T-E.
Q. Do you see a phone number beneath or right next to those
names?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you recognize that number?
A. That is the main phone number going into Spotlight.
Q. Mr. Sweet, as part of your assistance to the Government in
connection with this investigation, did you search Spotlight's
files for any subscriptions to the Spotlight newspaper in
certain names?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did Spotlight subscribe -- or did it have a reader by the
name of Timothy McVeigh?
A. No.
Q. Did it have a subscriber to its newspaper named Daryl
Bridges?
A. No.
Q. Did it have a subscriber named James Nichols?
A. Yes.
Q. At what address?
A. At the Decker, Michigan, address.
Q. Same address that's on the front of the coupon book, 484?
A. Right. 3616 North Van Dyke Road, Decker, Michigan.
MR. MACKEY: Mr. Sweet, thank you very much. That's
all I have.
William Sweet - Cross
THE COURT: Do you have questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, how would you classify the subscribers to the
Spotlight newspaper?
A. They were populists, conservatives.
Q. What does "populist" mean to you?
A. America first.
Q. Pardon?
A. America first.
Q. Would that be antigovernment?
A. I would not say so, no.
Q. Would this be the Rush Limbaugh type subscriber, or would
it be someone who was different?
A. Well, I'm going to answer this question that I'm not
politically in tune with the organization. I did mostly the
business side of Spotlight. The -- I can only tell you
typically that they were involved with populist policies of
Thomas Jefferson's time. They were opposed to the NAFTA
treaties, for example. They are pro gun, antiabortion.
Q. Pro gun and antiabortion?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. Go ahead.
A. And that's basically what kind of people they are.
Q. Is this -- would this be classified as a newspaper, or a
William Sweet - Cross
magazine?
A. This is a newspaper. It's a tabloid newspaper.
Q. Tabloid?
A. Tabloid size.
Q. How often is it published?
A. It's published weekly.
Q. And was it published weekly from its inception in 1955?
A. It's only in its 21st year. My understanding, it has been
published weekly since that time.
Q. And when you say it supports Thomas Jefferson and other
people like Thomas Jefferson, would there be quotes in the
magazine or newspaper with regard to -- that would be
attributable to Thomas Jefferson?
A. I would say so. And I've probably even seen them, but I
can't say that I paid that much attention to it.
Q. To other government officials, such as Mr. Jefferson?
Would there be quotes in the magazine from him, or newspaper?
A. I would guess so.
Q. You didn't regularly read the magazine?
A. I'm sorry, but I did not.
Q. Okay. I believe that you said that Timothy McVeigh did not
have a subscription to The Spotlight newspaper; is that
correct?
A. We did not find one in his name.
Q. Now, tell me about this Spotlight card: How many people
William Sweet - Cross
actually held this card?
A. At that time, I think there was approximately 10,000 cards
outstanding.
Q. I believe you said on direct examination that the
subscription level of The Spotlight was approximately 100,000.
A. That was the press run.
Q. What does that mean?
A. That's how many copies we printed each week.
Q. Okay. And I believe also you've testified previously that
this was passed around between a lot of people --
A. Quite a few.
Q. -- was your understanding of that?
A. Yes.
Q. So do you have any idea what your circulation actually was?
A. There had been estimates that upwards of 200,000 people
would read it every week.
Q. How big was this generally?
A. Excuse me?
Q. How big was this generally? How many pages?
A. It generally was 32 pages.
Q. And did it have advertising in it, also?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And 10,000 approximately had the calling card. Is that
correct?
A. That's what I believe it was at that time, yes.
William Sweet - Cross
Q. What was the dollar amount? Do you know?
A. I can only tell you when we initially launched it, we did
about a quarter of a million dollars in revenue in about a
six-month period of time.
Q. A quarter of a million dollars in Spotlight newspaper, or
quarter of a million dollars generally?
A. For the calling card, it was for -- quarter of a million
dollars in calling card revenues.
Q. So that was not attributable to you -- is that correct --
to Spotlight magazine or newspaper?
A. In terms of?
Q. Well, the quarter of a million dollars was the total amount
that was received from the card. Is that correct?
A. That's total revenue on the card, yes.
Q. And how much revenue was attributable from that quarter of
a million to Spotlight newspaper?
A. From the ads placed in Spotlight? Is that the question?
Q. No, from the Spotlight calling card. Are we talking
about --
A. I think we're on two different subjects here.
THE COURT: Are you asking about the commission?
MS. RAMSEY: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Oh. The commission would have been
approximately 20 percent of that.
BY MS. RAMSEY:
William Sweet - Cross
Q. Of the quarter of a million?
A. Right.
Q. And what -- that was in your initial offering. And was
that where you received the 10,000 people who took the card?
A. Yes.
Q. And after the initial offering, did you continue to have
people who purchased the calling card?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many people have totally purchased the calling
card?
A. At this time, I really couldn't tell you; but it would --
my guess would be something like 20-, 25,000 cards.
Q. And can you tell me how much revenue Spotlight newspaper
has received from the calling card?
A. That, I could not.
Q. At the time that you left in 1995 --
A. I could not give you an exact number on that.
Q. But over a quarter of a million?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any idea who the subscribers were or what type
of people were subscribing to the Spotlight calling card?
A. I can only assume that they followed the same profile as
the reader.
Q. Was there any other advertising with regard to the
Spotlight calling card other than the initial ad that was
William Sweet - Cross
placed -- or I believe you called it a wrapper?
A. Yes, there was quite a bit.
Q. And where was that?
A. They were found in ads within the paper itself.
Q. Only?
A. I would -- at that time, yes.
Q. At any other time, were there other ads?
A. Subsequently well beyond the events, there has been other
ads.
Q. And can you still get a Spotlight calling card?
A. Yes, you can.
Q. Do you still have one?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What do you hear when you first punch in that 800 number?
A. At that time, it was, "Welcome to the Spotlight calling
card."
Q. What is the 800 number?
A. It's 1(800)397-7733.
Q. And after the welcoming line, what would you hear next?
A. You would hear the -- there is a series of prompts that
would ask you to enter your calling card number.
Q. And is the calling card number unique to each individual,
or is it only the PIN number that is unique to teach
individual?
A. The calling card number and the PIN number are the same.
William Sweet - Cross
The only other number you're dealing with is the 1-800 number.
Q. So if anyone were to have the calling card number, which
would include the PIN number, they could call and see what the
balance was in their Spotlight account. Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Go ahead and tell what happens next.
A. Well, after you've entered your PIN number, it prompts you
to -- well, it will tell you how much money -- at that time, it
would tell you how much money you had remaining on the card.
And then it would prompt you to enter the phone number that you
wished to call. And as soon as you have entered the last
digit, it would tell you how many minutes you had remaining.
Q. And did it tell you that in whole minutes, since you billed
25 cents a minute?
A. Yes. It was whole minutes.
Q. Okay. And were duplicate cards -- were duplicate cards of
an account of furnished to anyone?
A. No.
Q. And could the card be copied?
A. As in a Xerox copy?
Q. Right.
A. Sure.
Q. Do people traditionally memorize their card numbers?
A. I know a lot of people did.
Q. Okay. And have you become aware of anyone having problems
William Sweet - Cross
with their calling cards?
A. Yes.
Q. And what kind of problems would you be aware of?
A. Well, typically, for some reason, the call wouldn't go
through if the system was down. That was the -- at the time --
one of our biggest headaches.
Q. The 800 number?
A. The 800 number wasn't functioning properly.
Q. I believe there were some problems with the Daryl Bridges
calling card; isn't that correct?
A. Apparently there was.
Q. And you do not have any idea what those problems were,
though, do you?
A. I'm -- not direct recollection to them, no.
Q. But the Liberty Lobby Spotlight was called on September 15,
September 19, and October 5 with regard to problems with the
card. Is that correct?
A. Apparently.
Q. Are you aware of the term "freaking"?
A. No, I'm not.
Q. "Shoulder surfing" --
A. No.
Q. -- where someone looks over your shoulder or gets your PIN
number or card number and uses that without your permission?
A. I'm not familiar with those terms.
William Sweet - Cross
Q. Have you ever heard of the numbers being stolen and being
used by someone other than authorized?
A. I can recall one or two cases where somebody had claimed
that the card was used without their authorization.
Q. And do you know who Daryl Bridges is?
A. No, I don't.
Q. In your search for subscribers to the liberty -- or to the
magazine, did you find that there was a subscription on behalf
of Mr. Nichols, I believe you said?
A. It was James Nichols.
Q. James Nichols. And was there also a subscription on behalf
of Michael Fortier?
A. Yes.
Q. And there was not a subscription on behalf of Timothy
McVeigh?
A. No.
Q. Do you know who Timothy McVeigh is?
A. Yes.
Q. As a result of the calling cards?
A. No.
Q. All right. Can you tell me if you also searched in your
database as far as subscribers to determine that Mike Havens
had a subscription to The Spotlight newspaper?
A. Yes.
Q. You had no idea with the records that you have who actually
William Sweet - Cross
placed any call using The Spotlight debit card, do you?
A. No, I don't.
Q. And you do not have any idea who received a call using The
Spotlight debit card, do you?
A. I have no knowledge on that.
Q. Do you have any knowledge as to who would call and check a
balance on their Spotlight debit card?
A. It can be done by the individual, just by going, as I've
explained how they call it and tell you what the balances are.
Q. But you don't have any idea who would actually make that
call, do you?
A. It's possible for somebody to call our offices, which
happened hundreds of times, for people who had questions about
their balances or how the system worked to call us; and we
would check the information for them.
Q. If someone were calling the 1(800) number and using their
card number with a PIN number, you would not know who was
actually making that call, would you?
A. No.
MS. RAMSEY: Your Honor, if I might have just a
moment.
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. RAMSEY: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey, do you have any redirect?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
William Sweet - Redirect
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Sweet, there were a number of steps in the chain
between the time the customer bought his money order to renew
and the time the credit got applied. Correct?
A. Correct.
Q. First step was it had to go to you in Washington, D.C.?
A. Correct.
Q. Then it had to go to Boston Financial in Boston?
A. Correct.
Q. Then Boston had to tell the phone company to apply the
credit?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you find over time that there were days and sometimes
weeks that passed before that credit ever got applied?
A. Unfortunately, that's true.
Q. And that would trigger, would it not, complaints from
customers saying, I sent in a renewal and I -- my balance check
doesn't say you got it?
A. Quite a few, yes.
Q. Would you on those occasions pick up the phone and use that
same PIN number and dial and see what balance the computer was
saying?
A. Yes, I would.
Q. And when you did that, would you do that from the offices
of Liberty Lobby in Washington, D.C.?
William Sweet - Redirect
A. Yes, I would.
Q. So that would be a phone call placed from your phone,
dialing somebody else's PIN number?
A. Correct.
Q. For the purpose of customer support?
A. Customer service, yes.
Q. Do you have any recollection that you did that on the
Bridges account in September and October of 1994?
A. I certainly do not.
Q. Ms. Ramsey asked you some questions about the dangers of a
debit card that depends on a peculiar PIN number and how other
people might acquire that through theft or fraud or whatever.
Do you recall those questions?
A. Yes.
Q. With a debit card, two people could purposely decide to
share use of a single debit card account, could they not?
A. Yes.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you.
Nothing else, your Honor.
THE COURT: Did you have any --
MS. RAMSEY: Yes. Just a couple questions, your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. RAMSEY:
William Sweet - Recross
Q. I believe you testified on direct examination that you have
one of the cards. Is that correct?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And I believe you've also testified previously that you
share that card with your children. Is that correct?
A. I've given them their own PIN numbers.
Q. And isn't it common that -- or is there any prohibition
against sharing that PIN number with other people?
A. No, there is no prohibition I'm aware of.
MS. RAMSEY: Nothing further, your Honor.
MR. MACKEY: One omitted question, your Honor. I'm
sorry, your Honor. I know it's the lunch hour.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Mr. Hartzler reminded me: Mike Havens, did you find as a
subscriber to Spotlight?
A. Yes.
Q. He didn't live anywhere near Marion, Kansas, did he?
A. I can't tell you that off the top of my head. I just know
the name.
Q. And finally, do you have any recollection that the Daryl
Bridges card was ever reported stolen?
A. No. It was never reported stolen.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Is he excused?
MR. MACKEY: He is, your Honor.
THE COURT: Is that agreed?
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, your Honor, it is.
THE COURT: Okay. You may step down, and you can go
home. You're excused.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Members of the jury, you can't go home;
but you can go to the jury room. We'll take our noon recess at
this time; and of course, as usual, I must caution you about
keeping open minds and avoiding discussion in the case.
I have the suspicion that this afternoon we're going
to be walking through a lot of documents; so fortify yourselves
within reason, of course, and what's available to you.
So we'll excuse you now for the usual hour and a half
luncheon recess, and you'll follow the usual cautions. You're
excused.
(Jury out at 12:13 p.m.)
THE COURT: All right. 1:43, or thereabouts.
(Recess at 12:13 p.m.)
* * * * *
INDEX
Item Page
WITNESSES
Jennifer McVeigh
Direct Examination Continued by Ms. Wilkinson 7030
Cross-examination by Mr. Nigh
Redirect Examination by Ms. Wilkinson
Recross-examination by Mr. Nigh
Luke Franey
Direct Examination by Ms. Behenna
Cross-examination by Mr. Jones
Redirect Examination by Ms. Behenna
William Sweet
Direct Examination by Mr. Mackey
Cross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Redirect Examination by Mr. Mackey
Recross-examination by Ms. Ramsey
Redirect Examination by Mr. Mackey
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS
Exhibit Offered Received Refused Reserved Withdrawn
6 7042
7
7 7040 7040
9
10 7056 7056
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS (continued)
Exhibit Offered Received Refused Reserved Withdrawn
11 7057 7057
12 7058 7058
17 7047 7047
221 & 222 7035 7035
480 7144 7144
481 7147 7148
482,483 7149 7149
485-487 7151 7151
486A 7151 7151
488A, 490A 7152 7152
488 7152 7152
490, 491 7152 7152
492-494 7152 7152
493A 7152 7152
495-497 7153 7153
496A 7153 7153
498-500 7153 7154
499A 7153 7154
501-503 7154 7154
502A 7154 7154
976 7118 7118
1012 7117 7118
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBITS
Exhibit Offered Received Refused Reserved Withdrawn
976A 7128 7128
976B 7129 7130
976C 7130 7130
976D 7131 7131
O-14
O-17 7079 7079
O-18 7081 7081
O-20 7082 7082
O-33 7075 7075
O-35 7091 7091
O-65 7071 7071
O-66 7072 7072
* * * * *
REPORTERS' CERTIFICATE
We certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from
the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. Dated
at Denver, Colorado, this 6th day of May, 1997.
_______________________________
Paul Zuckerman
_______________________________
Bonnie Carpenter