OKC Bombing Trial Transcript - 04/28/1997 21:15 CDT/CST
04/28/1997
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH,
Defendant.
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REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury - Volume 67)
컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴�
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 1:35 p.m., on the 28th day of April,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK M. RYAN, United States Attorney for the
Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400,
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
JOSEPH H. HARTZLER, SEAN CONNELLY, LARRY A. MACKEY,
BETH WILKINSON, SCOTT MENDELOFF, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, AITAN
GOELMAN, and VICKI BEHENNA, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
STEPHEN JONES, ROBERT NIGH, JR., and RICHARD BURR,
Attorneys at Law, Jones, Wyatt & Roberts, 999 18th Street,
Suite 2460, Denver, Colorado, 80202; JERALYN MERRITT, 303 East
17th Avenue, Suite 400, Denver, Colorado, 80203; CHERYL A.
RAMSEY, Attorney at Law, Szlichta and Ramsey, 8 Main Place,
Post Office Box 1206, Stillwater, Oklahoma, 74076, and
CHRISTOPHER L. TRITICO, Attorney at Law, Essmyer, Tritico &
Clary, 4300 Scotland, Houston, Texas, 77007, appearing for
Defendant McVeigh.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(Reconvened at 1:35 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
Ready to proceed?
MS. RAMSEY: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Bring in the jury.
(Jury in at 1:36 p.m.)
THE COURT: Bring in the witness.
Please resume the stand.
(Charles Hanger was recalled to the stand.)
THE COURT: You may continue.
MS. RAMSEY: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. I want to turn your attention back to I-35, when you made
the stop of Mr. McVeigh. I believe you testified a few moments
ago, before lunch, that at the time that you made the stop of
Mr. McVeigh, there was not a lot of traffic at that time.
A. I believe I said there was moderate amount of traffic.
Q. Did you see a -- any other vehicles around Mr. McVeigh's
vehicle at the time that you stopped him?
A. I'm sure there were vehicles around it, but none that I
took note of.
Q. None that you thought might be following or traveling with
Mr. McVeigh, either in front or behind him?
A. I couldn't even tell you what was around him. I don't have
any idea.
Q. Nothing called your attention to it?
A. No.
Q. And did you see a brown pickup truck around Mr. McVeigh's
vehicle?
Charles Hanger - Direct
MR. MENDELOFF: Objection, your Honor: Asked and
answered.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Answer the question, please.
A. I don't recall any of the vehicles that were around that
car at the time.
Q. Thank you.
Now I want to direct your attention later to the
interstate, when you were on the interstate. Did you ask
Mr. McVeigh if he wanted to leave his vehicle on the roadway?
A. Yes.
Q. Or was there another option that you gave him?
A. I gave him the option of either me impounding it or he
leaving it there. However, I told him if he left it there, it
would be at his own risk.
Q. And if he -- if you impounded the vehicle, does that
involve towing?
A. Yes.
Q. Would that involve towing charges that Mr. McVeigh would be
responsible for paying?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it normal for you give an option to an individual with
regard to their vehicle?
A. Yes, it is, as long as I feel that they're capable of
Charles Hanger - Direct
making that decision.
Q. And was there any threat of danger to the vehicle that you
knew of at that point or that you were concerned about?
A. The only threat would be there's always a possible threat
of vandalism or someone breaking into it.
Q. Did you anticipate that Mr. McVeigh would go back to his
vehicle in a relatively short time?
A. I didn't have any idea how long it would be.
Q. But certainly within an hour or a few hours to a day?
A. I didn't know how long -- I wasn't privileged to the
courts, how busy they were, and so I didn't know.
Q. When you were in Mr. McVeigh's vehicle in the front seat,
did you notice any of the gauges in the vehicle such as the gas
gauge or anything like that?
A. I didn't look at them.
Q. I want to turn your attention back to the Noble County
Jail. When I believe you testified earlier Miss Moritz took
the valuables of Mr. McVeigh, she put those in a bank bag?
A. Yes.
Q. I believe that bank bag had number "2" on it, which
corresponded to the number that was on the paper sack?
A. That is correct.
Q. Was that paper sack just a grocery sack?
A. Yes, it is a grocery sack, a paper sack.
Q. Okay. When you said the words "Best Yet" as being on the
Charles Hanger - Direct
sack, isn't that the name of a grocery store in Perry?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, the bank bag, though, is a actual plastic bag that is
used by banks to give to their customers in order to put
deposits in; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And is it the custom of the Noble County Jail, if you know,
to reuse those bank bags over and over?
A. Yes.
Q. With every prisoner, a different bank bag is used, and then
when that prisoner gets out of jail, that bank bag can be used
again; isn't that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you help Miss Moritz with the inventorying of the
valuable property and putting it in that bank bag?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Okay. Did you see her do that?
A. I didn't see her put every item in there, but I saw her
putting some items in it.
Q. Was there anything special or unique that was done by Miss
Moritz, in your presence, with the valuables that were put in
the bank bag?
A. She just put them in there, the ones that I saw.
Q. Nothing was being treated carefully or unusually; correct?
A. No.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. Okay. Now, you, I believe, helped Mr. McVeigh with his
clothing or the processing of his clothing; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go into a room with him to change, or did you
direct him to go into a room to change?
A. I went into that room with him.
Q. And did you tell him what to do?
A. Yes.
Q. You actually watched him change the clothes?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what clothing did he take off?
A. He took off his two shirts, his boots, his socks, and his
jeans.
Q. What about the windbreaker?
A. I believe it was already, had been taken off in the booking
area.
Q. And was that placed in the bag with his other clothes?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, this area that you were talking about prior to lunch
about where the property was stored, is that on the south side
of the courthouse but on the fourth floor in the jail?
A. You're talking about where the bag was left?
Q. In that storage area you referred to.
A. Yes, it's across the hall from the booking area.
Q. Okay. And is that locked in any way?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. No, not the door that goes into it itself. But the whole
jail is locked.
Q. Right, I understand that. But there is a door that is on
that room; isn't that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. That that door is not locked; correct?
A. It is not.
Q. Is that the room where a trustee will usually sleep if
there is a trustee at Noble County?
A. I have seen trustees in that room.
Q. And isn't that the normal room where attorneys will
interview clients if they are in jail?
A. I wouldn't be privileged to that information.
Q. Have you ever seen attorneys up there in that room?
A. No, I have not.
Q. And who has access to that room? All law enforcement that
come up there?
A. Yes, and the jailer.
Q. Right. And don't prisoners at times go in there, like
Mr. McVeigh did to change his clothes?
A. Yes, but they are with an officer at the time that they're
in there.
Q. Okay. But they have access to go into that room to change
clothes?
A. Yes, under supervision.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. Okay. And you have seen a trustee in there at times?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, the sack that you used to put Mr. McVeigh's
clothing in, was that a new sack or a used sack?
A. It looked new to me. It didn't have any of the writings on
it, and it appeared crisp and new.
Q. And isn't it the custom of the Noble County Jail to reuse
those sacks if they are in good condition?
A. Not that I'm aware of. I've never seen any with names
crossed through or multiple names.
Q. Okay. And when you pla -- or did you place the clothing
that belonged to Mr. McVeigh into the sack?
A. No, he placed it in there.
Q. And did he then hand the sack to you?
A. I had him place the sack on the floor. In the area where
the other sacks were.
Q. Now, when you say that the sack was a crisp sack,
Mr. McVeigh put his clothes in the sack, did he roll it down at
your direction, or was it paper-clipped closed or closed in any
way?
A. I don't believe it was closed.
Q. So it was left open?
A. Yes.
Q. And was the bag full?
A. It was fairly full.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. With the --
A. Not just running out the top, but it was near the top.
Q. Pretty well came to the top with the boots and everything
in it?
A. I don't recall if the boots were in it or they were sitting
beside it.
Q. Okay. Now, when you asked Mr. McVeigh to put the bag on
the floor, then did you pick the bag up?
A. No, it was left there.
Q. It was just left in the position where you told him to put
it?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it over in a corner or the middle of the floor or was
it under something, or where did he put it?
A. As you walk into the door, it would be about 5, 4 to 5 feet
south of the door and then to the right in an area where all
the sacks are kept.
Q. And when you say all the sacks, that's everyone who is in
custody in the Noble County Jail and has personal property has
a sack; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And the items that are in these sacks are not evidence;
isn't that correct?
A. I would assume that -- no, I don't leave my evidence there.
I can't speak to everyone else.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. But that's not normally where evidence is kept; correct?
A. That's not where my evidence is kept.
Q. For the reason that it's not locked up and can be gotten
to; is that correct?
MR. MENDELOFF: Objection as to Noble County policies.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Now, how long did it take Mr. McVeigh to take his clothes
off?
A. Oh, not very long. I didn't time it, but it would, 2, 3
minutes, maybe 4 minutes.
Q. Nothing unusual?
A. No.
Q. Okay. At that time after Mr. McVeigh put his clothing
down, you two walked out of that room, were you done with him?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Okay. And did you leave the area at that time?
A. No, I remained on the jail floor.
Q. In the booking area?
A. Yes, in the area where the computer is.
Q. And was Mr. McVeigh in that area still?
A. No, he was taken back to a cell.
Q. Did Miss Moritz do that?
A. Miss Moritz and -- I don't know if the sheriff was up
there. Someone else assisted her in putting him in a cell.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. So you didn't remain on the floor in order for there to be
somebody there while she put him in a cell?
A. Not for that specific purpose, no.
Q. Why did you stay there, then?
A. I was still working on my probable cause affidavit and the
confiscated property report.
Q. And how long did you stay on the floor?
A. I think I left around -- about 10 minutes to 1.
Q. Okay. And that's when you went to lunch?
A. Yes.
Q. I want to ask you a couple of questions about the earplugs
that Mr. McVeigh had. Did you know that he had those until he
emptied his pockets?
A. No.
Q. Do you as a trooper have to be certified as far as shooting
is concerned?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that something that you do every year?
A. We do it quarterly.
Q. Quarterly. So four times a year?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you have to practice that shooting, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you, when you are shooting, use some type of ear
covering, either earplugs or larger covering on your ears when
Charles Hanger - Direct
you do that?
A. I use the muffs.
Q. The muffs?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you seen people use earplugs?
A. Usually the troopers that I qualified with use the muffs.
Q. But it would not be unusual to use earplugs?
A. I assume some people do.
Q. Okay. When you went to lunch that day, you had the
property still in the back seat of your car; is that -- or not
the back seat, but in the trunk of your car; is that correct?
A. Could you repeat that, please?
Q. Did you have the -- not property, but evidence in the trunk
of your car?
A. At what time?
Q. When you went to lunch.
A. Yes.
Q. You had filled out at sometime a confiscated property
receipt which is -- has been admitted as Government's Exhibit
422.
Would you please display that, please.
Did you fill this out?
A. Part of it was filled out in the jail, booking area, and
then the remainder was filled out in the sheriff's office.
Q. On the first floor?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you not have Mr. McVeigh sign that -- I believe
about halfway down the page, it says . . . "Did not sign" or
something like that.
A. It says, "Did not sign." It's not my usual custom to have
him -- have the defendant sign that. Unless I have a drug case
that I felt might enhance my case, that he's going to be
provided a copy of that, and I didn't need his signature.
Q. Okay. So there was nothing unusual or special with regard
to the evidence that you have written on this confiscated
property receipt that would lead you to have him himself sign
that?
A. I didn't feel like it was necessary.
Q. Okay. Thank you.
Now, you testified on direct examination -- let me
back up just a moment.
When you put Mr. McVeigh in the passenger side of the
front seat; is that normally where you put prisoners?
A. Yes, when I have just one.
Q. Do you ever put a prisoner in the back seat when you have
just one?
A. No.
Q. You don't have a cage in your car, do you?
A. No.
Q. If you were concerned about your safety, would you put a
Charles Hanger - Direct
prisoner in the back seat?
A. I don't -- with the kind of cars that we drive, I don't
think that offers you any more protection because they can
still access you through the -- between the bucket seats.
Q. I believe you testified on direct examination that you had
had the vehicle since January of 1994; is that correct?
A. June.
Q. June?
A. June 29.
Q. June of 1994. So you had had it approximately 10 months --
A. Yes.
Q. -- at the time?
Now, when was the last time that you checked your
seats?
A. In what regard? How I checked them.
Q. In relation to April the 19th.
A. You mean digging around in the seats?
Q. Yeah, uh-huh.
A. I don't remember. I don't know. As far as digging around
in the seats, I don't know.
Q. Well, that's not a directive by the highway patrol as far
as checking the seats every time a prisoner gets out of the car
or something like that?
A. It's not a directive. But as a personal preference, after
I've had a prisoner in custody, I do a more thorough check than
Charles Hanger - Direct
I do when I go to work every day, by just visually looking
around.
Q. On that particular day, your wife went to lunch with you;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. In your patrol car; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And isn't it usual and customary, if you were to go to
lunch or go to dinner or whatever your shift would be, while
you were using your patrol car, that you might have someone sit
in that passenger seat, as well as in the back seat; correct?
A. I don't think I understand your question.
Q. If you are driving your vehicle on duty and you go to
lunch, or you go to dinner, if you go pick somebody up, they
usually sit in your car, don't they?
A. Yes.
Q. In the front seat, or if you have more than one person,
people get in the back seat; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you found this card that you were questioned about
on direct examination, did you pull the seat out of your
vehicle?
A. Did I pull it out just to locate it?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. No, it was in plain view.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. But did you pull it out after to see what makeup the seat
was?
A. Could you define which seat we're talking about?
Q. You testified earlier that you had taken the seat out in
order to determine the makeup of it, to see if something could
fall back. Is that the first time you had done that?
A. I don't believe that I took it out.
Q. Okay. Tell me what you said on direct examination about
your seat, then.
A. That I had examined it by sticking my hand down into the
bottom area of the seat where the bottom of the seat and the
bottom of the back come together to see if something could pass
through there.
Q. And is that the only time that you've done that?
A. I've had prisoners in there before that when I got done, I
felt around in the seats to make sure nothing was stuffed down
in my seats.
Q. All right.
A. But I couldn't tell you when that last time was.
Q. I want to turn your attention now to the roadways to and
from Arkansas, Oklahoma City, and to Kansas, which is
Government's Exhibit 410. Do you have that on your screen?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Isn't it true that the roadways of either 60 or 177 or 74
would be a much-less-traveled roadway than the Interstate 35?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. And isn't this -- any one of these roadways a logical
roadway to go from Oklahoma to Kansas?
A. I don't know. Like I say, it was logical depending on what
your reasons were and where you were coming from or going to.
Q. But if you are traveling to Kansas, that would be a normal
way to go, any of those roadways; isn't that correct?
A. My preference would be the fastest and the easiest, which
would be Interstate 35.
Q. That's right. There's more traffic on I-35, more chance of
law enforcement on I-35; correct?
A. I wouldn't say there's a more chance of law enforcement on
I-35. We're so short in all areas that we're not
oversaturated.
Q. I understand that. But wouldn't there be a greater chance
of running into law enforcement on a well-traveled and
more-traveled roadway than a less-traveled roadway?
A. Given our current status on being very short on manpower,
no, I can't say that.
Q. Now, you testified also that you had talked with the FBI as
well as the United States Attorney's Office, members of the
office. How many hours would you say that you have actually
discussed the case with either law enforcement or United States
attorneys?
A. Gosh, I don't have anything before me that -- I can guess
Charles Hanger - Direct
at it.
Q. Well, educated guess perhaps.
A. 12 to 14 hours.
Q. And you are aware that the defense requested to interview
you?
A. I had heard that. No one had ever approached me.
Q. Mr. Lindsay with the Department of Public Safety did not
advise you that he would not allow you to be questioned?
MR. MENDELOFF: Objection, your Honor: Hearsay.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. RAMSEY:
Q. Now, on April the 19th when you completed the confiscated
property form and gave the evidence to Sheriff Cook, were you
done with this case?
A. Yes.
Q. You had no further contact with Mr. McVeigh whatsoever; is
that correct?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Now, when you were off duty -- I believe which you said you
were supposed to be off the 20th, 21st, and 22d; is that
correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. But you came back on duty in plain clothes on the 21st?
A. Yes.
Q. And for what purpose was that that you came back on duty?
Charles Hanger - Direct
A. I had received a call from my headquarters around 10 a.m.
on the 21st asking me if I had ran a specific social security
number through the NCIC computer system, and I had recalled the
number being a low digit, beginning like 11 something or a
low-digit number. And I told them I thought it was the
individual that I'd arrested on Wednesday, the 19th, but I'd
have to call the jail to confirm that.
Q. Was this Miss Warnock that was calling you from the Pawnee
headquarters?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Go ahead. And what did you do next?
A. So I called the jail to ask the jailer -- or actually, I
talked to the secretary to ask her if this was the same social
security number that belonged to Mr. McVeigh.
Q. Okay. And as a result of getting that phone call, then did
you go to the courthouse?
A. Yes, I was told to report to Sheriff Cook's office, and
then I would receive a call from the FBI.
Q. And that was on the 21st?
A. Yes.
Q. On the 20th or on the 21st, did you see any composite
sketches of John Doe 1 and John Doe 2?
A. Yes, I don't recall which day.
Q. But prior to the phone call from Miss Warnock on the 21st?
A. Yes.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. Okay. Did you at any time ever contact anyone and advise
them that you had arrested a suspect that might fit that
composite?
A. No.
Q. And did you, until you were actually contacted by the FBI,
have any suspicion with regard to Mr. McVeigh being involved?
A. No.
Q. As far as you were concerned, you were arresting
Mr. McVeigh on unlawfully carrying a weapon; is that correct?
A. That was one of the charges.
Q. And that is a misdemeanor in the state of Oklahoma; isn't
that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And the definition of Oklahoma law as far as a misdemeanor
is some crime that carries punishment of one year or less in a
county jail; isn't that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And possibly a fine.
A. Yes.
Q. You were also -- had written Mr. McVeigh a ticket on April
the 25th for transporting a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle;
is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. That also would be a misdemeanor offense; correct?
A. Yes.
Charles Hanger - Direct
Q. Also you had written him a ticket for failure to display a
current number tag or number plate -- I'm sorry, no license
tag. Is that also a misdemeanor offense?
A. Yes.
Q. And a failure to maintain proof of security would be a
traffic offense or a misdemeanor offense in the state of
Oklahoma; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So there is not anything that you thought was unusual about
this arrest until you were contacted on the 21st by the FBI; is
that correct?
A. Yes.
MS. RAMSEY: May I have just a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. RAMSEY: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
MR. MENDELOFF: Yes, just one question, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. When you left Mr. McVeigh's car out on the highway on the
19th and took him into Noble County Jail, were the doors to the
car locked?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you check all the doors?
Charles Hanger - Redirect
A. Yes.
Q. And is that recorded on your video?
A. It should be.
MR. MENDELOFF: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any question by the --
MS. RAMSEY: No.
THE COURT: Is the witness to be excused?
MR. MENDELOFF: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Free?
MR. TRITICO: Yes.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, the Government calls
Special Agent William Eppright. Mr. Mendeloff will question
him.
MR. MENDELOFF: Your Honor, we've tried to rectify the
exhibits in the envelopes, so hopefully it will be a little
smoother.
THE COURT: Okay. We'll see how it goes.
You'll just be sworn by the clerk here.
(William Eppright, III, affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: William Eppright, III, E-P-P-R-I-G-H-T.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Mendeloff.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Sir, what is your education?
A. I have a bachelor of art's degree in mathematics and law
and justice from Glassboro State College in New Jersey.
Q. After you got out of college, did you take any employment?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Where?
A. With the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Q. How long?
A. That was in 1978, so 18 years ago.
Q. Now, initially when you joined the FBI, what was your --
what were your responsibilities?
A. My first responsibilities, in the identification division.
Later the budget and accounting unit. Then the laboratory
division, and following in our computer division.
Q. All right. After you served those years in support, did
you become a special agent?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. How long ago was that?
A. 11 and a half years ago.
Q. During the time you worked in the FBI, did you pursue any
additional education related to your work in the FBI?
A. Yes, I did.
William Eppright, III - Direct
Q. What was that?
A. I completed the requirements for a master's degree in
forensic science from George Washington University.
Q. When did you obtain that degree?
A. I finished the requirements for that degree in, I believe,
1986 or '87.
Q. In addition to your degree in forensic science, did you
obtain any other professional certifications?
A. Yes, I'm a certified fingerprint instructor.
Q. All right. Where were you -- where are you currently
stationed?
A. I'm currently stationed in Dallas, Texas.
Q. How long have you been stationed in Dallas?
A. For 11 and a half years.
Q. What are your responsibilities there?
A. My responsibilities are general investigative duties.
Q. Now, where were you on the morning of April 19, 1995?
A. I was at my residence.
Q. Did you receive a phone call that morning?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you receive a directive in that phone call?
A. Yes. I received a phone call from a member of the Evidence
Response Team who told me to immediately go to Oklahoma City.
Q. All right. And did you leave?
A. Yes, I did.
William Eppright, III - Direct
Q. How soon?
A. As soon as I could.
Q. Before we go on with your testimony, let me take a few
moments to ask you some questions about Evidence Response
Teams. What is an Evidence Response Team?
A. And Evidence Response Team is a group of agents and support
personnel who are especially trained to recognize, recover,
preserve, and document crime scenes.
Q. Do Evidence Response Teams actually analyze evidence?
A. No, they do not analyze evidence at all.
Q. How are members of that response team specially trained?
A. They are specially trained through classroom training,
practical experience, and specialized courses.
Q. Now, what are the steps Evidence Response Teams undertake
in handling complicated crime scenes?
A. The steps would be to photograph and document pertinent
information at crime scenes and then collect the evidence.
Q. Now, let me return back to April 19, 1995. After you
received the call directing you to go to Oklahoma City, where
did you go?
A. I met the other members of the Evidence Response Team at
the Oklahoma City Police Department.
Q. At about what time?
A. I would have arrived there in the mid afternoon.
Q. On what day?
William Eppright, III - Direct
A. April 19.
Q. Over the next two days, what sorts of work did you perform?
A. I performed different crime-scene searches in the Oklahoma
City area and also conducted the -- participated in the
crime-scene search in front of the federal Murrah Building.
Q. Now, let me take you two days forward, to Friday, April 21,
1995. Did you receive a new assignment on that day?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What was that?
A. I was asked to go to the secured storage location to
coordinate and receive any possible evidence from a vehicle
that was being brought to that location.
Q. All right. What is the secured storage location? What was
that?
A. That was the location where all the evidence recovered from
any location was brought for storage and maintenance.
Q. And what sort of building was it?
A. It was a warehouse-type building that was secured.
Q. And generally speaking where in the Oklahoma City area was
it located?
A. It was in the downtown Oklahoma City area.
Q. Now, at some point that day, did the car that you were to
search arrive?
A. Yes, sir, it did.
Q. What time?
William Eppright, III - Direct
A. The car arrived in the late afternoon.
Q. How was it transported to the warehouse?
A. When I saw the car arrive at the warehouse, it was on a
flatbed trailer.
Q. What was the make and model of that car?
A. It was a Mercury Grand Marquis.
Q. The car have any distinguishing features on it?
A. Yes, sir, it did.
Q. What was that?
A. It had a lot of body putty, rust-type material on the
driver's rear quarter panel.
Q. After the car arrived, did you take note of the car's
vehicle identification number?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Do you have a current independent recollection of what that
number was?
A. No, I do not.
MR. MENDELOFF: Your Honor, may I approach the
witness?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Let me show you Government Exhibit 415A, ask you to look at
that, and tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what that
is.
A. Government's Exhibit 415A is my search log which I recorded
William Eppright, III - Direct
the steps of conducting the automobile search on April 21,
1995.
Q. Is the vehicle identification number of the Grand Marquis
that you received that day listed anywhere on that sheet of
paper?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. When you wrote down the vehicle identification number, was
the information fresh in your mind?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And do you know whether the information was correct as you
wrote it down?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
MR. MENDELOFF: Your Honor, at this time we'd move the
admission of 415A under Rule 803(5).
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I don't have a copy of 415A, so
if I could examine it.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. MENDELOFF: I did show it to Mr. Jones before we
started today, but we certainly can.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 415A received.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Can you read from Government Exhibit 415A the vehicle
identification on that Mercury Marquis?
A. Yes, sir, I can. It's 7Z6OA613847.
William Eppright, III - Direct
Q. By the time the car arrived at the warehouse on a flatbed
truck, had you learned whose car it was?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Whose car was it?
A. It was Timothy McVeigh's.
Q. What was the first thing that happened to the Mercury after
it arrived at the warehouse?
A. The Mercury was transported to the rear of the warehouse by
the operator of the flatbed truck and the tow-truck driver.
Q. And when it got there, what happened?
A. It was moved to the back of the warehouse by the driver.
Q. And then what?
A. And then I secured a perimeter around the vehicle.
Q. Tell the jury what you mean by the words "secured a
perimeter."
A. I at that point located the vehicle in the back of the
warehouse and instructed no one to go anywhere near the car.
Q. All right. Now, after the car arrived at the warehouse
location, did the FBI take any steps to record the external
appearance of that car?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. What did they do?
A. The exterior of the car was photographed from all four
sides.
Q. Let me ask you to direct your attention in the sheaf of
William Eppright, III - Direct
papers in front of you to Government Exhibit 414A.
A. Okay, I have it.
Q. What is that?
A. That is a photograph that I directed to be taken of the
vehicle located in the warehouse, of the passenger rear quarter
panel.
Q. And does that photograph fairly and accurately reflect the
way that rear quarter panel looked when you received the car on
April 21, 1995?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government
Exhibit 414A, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Proceed.
MR. MENDELOFF: Could we publish that, please, your
Honor?
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Now, using the light pen in front of you, would you please
indicate on that vehicle the primer that you had mentioned
earlier.
I think we're having --
A. I can't tell if it's --
Q. -- a technical -- you have to put the pen right onto the
screen there. There you go, draw right onto the screen.
William Eppright, III - Direct
Having trouble there?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. MENDELOFF: Let me -- let me -- I can do it a
different way, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Let me direct your attention to a portion of that photo
contained within a circle. You see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that?
A. That is the primer that I spoke of earlier on the rear
corner panel.
Q. Now, after you directed photos to be taken of the car, did
another group of agents arrive at the warehouse?
A. Yes, sir, they did.
Q. And who was -- who were these people?
A. These were a team of agents from the Chemical Residue
Recovery Team.
Q. Who was leading this team?
A. This team was led by Special Agent Steve Burmeister.
Q. When the Chemical Residue Recovery Team arrived, who
handled the next step in searching the car?
A. The Chemical Residue Recovery Team did.
Q. And approximately when did this begin?
A. This began approximately 6:40 p.m. on the 21st.
William Eppright, III - Direct
Q. How did it begin? Who entered the car first?
A. The car was entered first by Special Agent Steve
Burmeister.
Q. Were the doors opened or closed?
A. The doors were locked.
Q. And how did Agent Burmeister gain entry?
A. Agent Burmeister gained entry into the vehicle by using a
Slim Jim or a car-door opening tool.
Q. To your knowledge, when the FBI entered that car, did it do
so pursuant to a search warrant?
A. Yes, sir, it did.
Q. At approximately 6:47, did something else happen?
A. Yes, sir. At 6:47, there were air samples taken inside the
vehicle.
Q. By whom?
A. By Agent Burmeister.
Q. Were you actively involved in this process?
A. No, I was not.
Q. And what is the reason you know that air samples were
taken?
A. I witnessed it, and he said that's what he was doing.
Q. All right. Do you know anything about chemical residue
recovery?
A. No, I certainly do not.
Q. Now, at 6:51 that afternoon, that evening, what happened
William Eppright, III - Direct
next?
A. At 6:51, photographs of the interior of the vehicle were
taken.
Q. Let me direct your attention to Government Exhibits 466 and
468. What are those?
A. Government's Exhibits 466 and 468 are the interior
photographs of the vehicle which I had directed to be taken,
one from the passenger's side, which would be Government's
Exhibit 468, and the other from the driver's side, which would
be Government's Exhibit 466.
Q. And when in relation to the time that the doors were opened
to this car were these photos taken?
A. They were taken at 6:51, and the vehicle was opened at
6:46.
Q. Do they fairly and accurately reflect the way the interior
of the car looked when the doors were first opened?
A. Yes, sir, they do.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government's
Exhibits 466 and 468.
MR. NIGH: No objection.
THE COURT: They are received.
MR. MENDELOFF: May we publish them?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Ask you first to look at Government's Exhibit 466. What is
William Eppright, III - Direct
that?
A. That is the photograph which I directed to be taken of the
front -- front compartment of the vehicle from the driver's
side.
Q. All right. And 468, what is that?
A. That is the photograph which I directed to be taken from
the passenger's side of the front seat and floor.
Q. When these photographs were taken, had anything been
removed from the car, other than the air samples?
A. No, sir, they were not.
Q. And were the items in roughly the same place they were when
you first opened the door?
A. Yes, sir, they were.
Q. After the FBI photographer took photos of the interior of
the car, what was the next step in the examination?
A. After the photographs were taken, the contents were
removed.
Q. Who removed them?
A. Special Agent Burmeister.
Q. And when he removed them, how did he remove them?
A. He removed them individually, at which time handing them
directly to me.
Q. What did you do when you received each item?
A. After I received each item, I gave it an item number, a
description, I marked the evidence for future identification,
William Eppright, III - Direct
and then I packaged the item.
Q. All right. Now, before handling these items, before you
started to receive items, did you do anything to take any
precautions?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What did you do?
A. I put on a pair of clean cotton gloves.
Q. And how long did you wear these cotton gloves?
A. I change the cotton gloves periodically throughout the
search whenever they would become dirty or wet from
perspiration.
Q. From an evidence recovery standpoint, what benefit, if any,
is received from wearing these kinds of gloves?
A. The hands are -- they perspire and they get dirty, and it's
very easy to put fingerprints on an item. And also it protects
the item from destroying or altering any other possible
evidence that may be on an item.
Q. You just testified that as you took the items out of the
car, you gave each item an item number, listed it on a log, and
then marked each item for identification. How were you marking
the items for identification?
A. I marked the items either directly on the item itself or
indirectly, which would mean on the packaging that I placed the
item into.
Q. Did you package them together or individually?
William Eppright, III - Direct
A. No, sir, I packaged each item individual.
Q. When did the process of removing, marking, and inventorying
these items begin?
A. That process began at 6:55 p.m.
Q. Shortly after Agent Burmeister began the process of
removing items from the car, did he hand you a document of some
sort?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. What was it?
A. The document was an 8-1/2-by-11 white sheet of paper that
contained handwriting.
Q. All right. Let me ask you to look -- direct your attention
to Government Exhibit 447.
A. I have that.
Q. What is that?
A. That is the document which would -- which was removed from
the vehicle.
Q. The one you just referenced?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How do you know that that's the document?
A. I know that that's the document because it contains my
initials and date which I placed on the document at the time I
removed it.
Q. Do you also have an independent recollection of that
document?
William Eppright, III - Direct
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Let me direct your attention to Government Exhibit 468.
A. Okay. I have that.
Q. Do you see that document in the picture marked Government
Exhibit 468?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Let me direct your attention to the monitor and ask you
what is contained within the circle that appears on your
document.
A. Contained within the circle is Government's Exhibit 447.
Q. Does Government Exhibit 447 appear any different today than
it did when you recovered it on April 21?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. How does it appear different?
A. It is darker in color, and it also contains additional
notations which would be placed on there by individuals in the
FBI laboratory who would have conducted tests on the document.
Q. All right.
A. And in addition, it has three holes punched in it.
Q. Let me take those one at a time. When you say the document
is darker in color, based on your background in the FBI and
your training, do you know what that coloring is from?
A. Yes, sir, I'm aware of what the coloring is from.
Q. What is it?
A. The coloring is from the processing of the document for
William Eppright, III - Direct
latent fingerprints through different chemicals they would use.
Q. And what do you mean through different chemicals? How does
that work?
A. I'm not a latent print examiner expert, but there's a
number of different types of chemicals. There's a number of
different types of exams that a latent fingerprint examiner
will do to a document in an attempt to get the best latent
fingerprints he can from the document.
Q. Why does the document contain holes punched in it?
A. The document contains holes because the examiner in the
document section would have taken a paper sample of the
document in an attempt to conduct a paper examination to
possibly -- or to match it up with another potential source of
paper to compare the two and see if they were the same.
MR. MENDELOFF: At this time, your Honor, we would
move the admission of Government Exhibit 447.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 447 received.
MR. MENDELOFF: Your Honor, I might need to use the
ELMO.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Okay.
THE COURT: Can you get rid of that arrow in there?
MR. MENDELOFF: Just added one.
I don't know why this is happening. I'll try to take
it out of the plastic. No, that doesn't help.
William Eppright, III - Direct
I feel better.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. MENDELOFF: There we go.
THE COURT: Just a little confusion to have that
there.
MR. MENDELOFF: Yes, it is.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Now, Agent Eppright, you mentioned that there were some
holes on the document. Can you take your light pencil --
that's not working. All right, what am I pointing at?
A. You're pointing at one of the three holes that appear on
the bottom of the document as . . . .
Q. And are there initials next to each of those holes?
A. Yes, sir, there are.
Q. And what would that be for?
A. That would be the markings of the examiner who conducted
that particular test.
Q. Now, would you tell us how this document looks any
different than it did the first time? You described it before,
but now we're looking at it, so if you would just explain.
A. The holes with the markings, the -- I think you can see
from -- I can see on my screen that it's discolored. It looks
like it has a charcoal-type tint to it, and there's other
additional markings that would be placed on there from the
laboratory.
William Eppright, III - Direct
Q. All right. Now, when you first saw this document, what
color was it?
A. It was white.
Q. And would you read what's written on this document, please.
A. Yes, sir. The document says, "Not abandoned," and that's
underlined. "Please do not tow, will move by April 23." And
then in parentheses, "(Needs battery and cable)," end
parentheses.
Q. Now, let me ask you to look --
MR. MENDELOFF: I'm going to need the computer now.
I'm sorry.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. -- at Government Exhibit 466 and ask you if you -- to tell
us what you see within the red circle that I've placed on the
document.
A. What I see within the red circle is a sealed envelope which
was on the front passenger seat of Timothy McVeigh's vehicle.
Q. And I'm going to ask you to look a little more carefully at
that envelope. If I can try to do this. Looking at that
zoomed-in shot of the envelope, how does that photo compare to
the thickness of the envelope when you saw it when you removed
it from the car?
A. It appears to be the same. I noticed that the envelope
appeared to be fairly thick.
Q. And as to its location, how does the location in this photo
William Eppright, III - Direct
compare to the location where you found it when you first
searched the car on April 21?
A. It's exactly where I found it.
Q. All right. After you received the envelope, at some point
did you receive this envelope from Agent Burmeister?
A. Yes, sir, I received the envelope directly from Agent
Burmeister.
Q. And after you received it, did you interrupt the process of
removing other evidence from the car for any reason?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What was that?
A. At 7 p.m. I opened the white envelope.
Q. All right. Now, let me ask you to look at Government
Exhibit 448.
A. Yes, sir, I have that.
Q. What is that?
A. That is a picture which I directed to be taken of the white
envelope after I opened it and the contents within the
envelope.
Q. I'm asking you to refer to Government Exhibit 448, not
448A. 448.
A. Government's Exhibit 448 is a -- is the white envelope with
the end part missing.
Q. All right. Now, does the envelope appear any different
today than it did when you recovered it on April 21, except the
William Eppright, III - Direct
missing end?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. What is that?
A. It's darker in color from the latent fingerprint
processing, and it contains different initials from the FBI
laboratory.
Q. Similarly, does that document appear any different in
thickness than it does now?
A. Yes, sir. It's much thinner because the contents are not
in it.
Q. How do you know this is the same envelope that you removed
from the car?
A. It has my initials and date.
MR. MENDELOFF: I would move the admission of
Government Exhibit 448.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 448 is received.
MR. MENDELOFF: Can we publish it, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Now, looking at this exhibit, can you tell the ladies and
gentlemen of the jury where your initials are located?
A. Yes, sir, I can. They're in the upper left-hand corner of
the envelope.
Q. All right. And how does it appear -- you described the
William Eppright, III - Direct
difference before; but now that we're looking at it, can you
explain how it looks any different now than it did then?
A. Yes, sir. I think from the monitor you can see the
discoloration, which again appears to be a charcoal-type
discoloration; and the other markings in both corners, they
appear as initials and Q numbers.
Q. All right. I believe you testified that you interrupted
your process of examining the materials in the car to make
closer examination of the envelope. Did you take any steps to
prepare for this closer examination?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What did you do?
A. Before opening the envelope, I created a clean work area on
the table I was sitting at.
Q. All right. And what else did you do?
A. I directed the envelope to be photographed.
Q. After you photographed it, how did you open it?
A. I opened it by tearing it along one end.
Q. What was the reason you opened it that way as opposed to
using a letter opener?
A. I did not want to insert any foreign object into the
envelope.
Q. From your initial examination of the contents, what did you
see about the organization of the contents?
A. I noticed that the contents were in two stacks which each
William Eppright, III - Direct
stack folded into thirds -- if I can kind of demonstrate.
Q. Yes.
A. Appeared to be two fairly thick stacks of documents folded
into thirds and laying one on top of each other.
Q. All right. Now, other than organization, what was the
first thing you noticed about the papers when you removed them
from the envelope?
A. The first thing I noticed was the -- that the outside of
one of the stacks contained a handwritten notation.
Q. All right. Did you unravel those papers when you noticed
that handwritten notation?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. What did you do with the papers at that point?
A. I read the notation and directed that a photograph be
taken.
Q. And let me ask you to look at Government Exhibit 448A.
What is that?
A. 448A is the picture which I directed to be taken of the
envelope with the torn edge and the contents contained within
the envelope with the handwritten-notation side facing up
towards the camera.
Q. Does it fairly and accurately depict the way those
materials looked when you photographed them that day?
A. Yes, sir, it sure does.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government
William Eppright, III - Direct
Exhibit 448A, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. MENDELOFF: May we publish it, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Now, let me ask you first to direct your attention to the
top half of this photo. What is located there?
A. The top half of the photo shows the envelope with the torn
edge.
Q. And the bottom half?
A. The bottom half shows the stacks of paper and the
handwriting, the handwritten notation.
Q. Now, how many stacks were there?
A. There were two separate stacks.
Q. Let me ask you to focus your attention on what was written
on the stack of paper as you pulled it out of the envelope.
Can you read that to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury?
A. Yes, sir, I can. Written on the outside of the envelope
was, "Obey the Constitution of the United States and we won't
shoot you."
Q. After you removed the two stacks of paper from inside the
envelope and had them photographed, did you continue to examine
them?
A. No, sir, I did not.
William Eppright, III - Direct
Q. What did you do with them at that time?
A. At that time I put the contents and the envelope in a
Baggie-type envelope which I sealed.
Q. What was the reason you didn't continue to examine those
documents?
A. After removing the contents and reading the handwritten
notation on the outside, because of the nature of the crime, I
felt that the contents might provide very valuable information,
evidence, and I wanted to continue processing the car and focus
my attention on the contents after the car was completed, after
the processing of the car.
Q. All right. And what was the reason you placed Government
Exhibit 448, the envelope and its contents, into a plastic
container and sealed it?
A. To protect it.
Q. After you secured these materials in that manner, did you
return to searching the car?
A. Yes, sir. The chemical residue recovery agents continued
their search of the vehicle.
Q. And did that include removing several additional items?
A. Yes, sir, it did.
Q. At some point did that search -- was that search completed?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. After the items were removed, did the -- did you take part
in the residue analysis of the internal part of the car?
William Eppright, III - Direct
A. No, I did not.
Q. All right. Now, at some point did the search of the car
shift from the internal -- excuse me, from the internal part of
the car to the trunk?
A. Yes, sir, it did.
Q. And what did that search entail?
A. That search was more or less the same search as the
interior: The Chemical Residue Team did certain -- what they
told me were chemical recovery-type steps, and then removed the
items from the trunk.
Q. All right. When did the process of searching the car end?
A. The process of searching the car ended at approximately
8:40 p.m.
Q. After that, did you focus your attention on any particular
piece of evidence?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What evidence was that?
A. I returned to the envelope and its contents.
Q. Did you take any steps to prepare for a continued
examination of this envelope and its contents?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do?
A. I again created a clean work area on the table top that I
was sitting and put on a pair of clean white cotton gloves.
Q. And did you make any -- take any steps to make sure that
William Eppright, III - Direct
what you were removing from the envelope would be documented in
some way?
A. Yes, sir, I did. I directed that the photographer
rearrange his equipment, particularly his lighting equipment,
to photograph the contents.
Q. Were there any other FBI personnel there in addition to the
photographer?
A. Yes, sir, there were.
Q. And they included whom?
A. They included Special Agent Bill Davitch; Special Agent Jim
Elliott; and Lou Hupp, who is a fingerprint examiner -- latent
fingerprint examiner.
Q. When you began this continued examination of the envelope,
what was the first thing you did?
A. The first thing I did was to remove the contents and to
place them on the newly created table top and sealed the
envelope.
Q. All right. Now, when you say the newly created table top,
what do you mean?
A. I put down sheets of 8-1/2-by-11 white paper on the table
top, clean sheets.
Q. And the purpose of that was?
A. To create a -- to create a clean work area.
Q. And you said that you took the envelope and put it in a
sealed plastic container. What was the reason for that?
William Eppright, III - Direct
A. To preserve it for shipment to the FBI laboratory.
Q. Now, at this point what did you do?
A. At this point I directed that a photograph be taken of the
contents.
Q. And after you did that, did you begin to examine the --
those contents?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When you unfolded the sheets of paper, could you see
whether the papers varied in size and shape?
A. Yes, I could tell that they varied.
Q. In reviewing the items in the envelope, do you notice
whether the documents in the envelope bore any markings of any
kind?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. What kind of markings?
A. The -- some of the documents contained handwritten
notations, and some of the documents contained portions which
are highlighted with a yellow marker.
Q. As you opened the sheets of paper, did you do anything to
preserve what you were reviewing as you did it?
A. Yes, sir. At each step I directed that a photograph be
taken as I removed documents from the stacks.
Q. Did you do anything else?
A. I initialed and dated each sheet of paper as I removed it
and placed it in an individual plastic envelope, which I
William Eppright, III - Direct
sealed.
Q. All right. Now, let me ask you to direct your attention to
Government Exhibit 453.
A. I have that.
Q. What is Government Exhibit 453?
A. Government's Exhibit 453 is a small clipping from pages 61
and 62 of The Turner Diaries.
Q. Is it an entire page or just a portion of that page --
those pages?
A. No, sir, it's just a small clipping of a portion of it.
Q. When you say 61 to 62, how do we get two pages there?
A. The pages were back to back.
Q. So you have one side of the page and the back as well, and
those are the two pages?
A. Correct.
Q. Where did you find Government Exhibit 453?
A. The document was contained within the closed -- the sealed
envelope on the front seat of Timothy's McVeigh's vehicle.
Q. How does the condition of this clipping from The Turner
Diaries compare to the state of the clippings when you removed
it from the envelope out of Defendant McVeigh's Mercury?
A. It is different in color. It contains additional
handwritten notations from FBI lab personnel and myself, and
the highlighting is no longer on the document.
Q. What highlighting?
William Eppright, III - Direct
A. Parts of this document were highlighted in, with the yellow
marker I spoke of earlier.
Q. All right. What side of -- both sides of the document or
which side?
A. No, sir, just the side from page 62.
Q. All right. Now, you said that the document was darker. Do
you know what that is from?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What's that from?
A. That's from the latent fingerprint processing.
Q. Do you know what happened to the highlighting on this
document?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What happened?
A. It was removed from the latent fingerprint processing.
Q. It was removed from the latent fingerprint processing?
A. By the latent fingerprint processing.
Q. Are you an expert in how that would happen?
A. No, sir, I'm not.
Q. Now, let me ask you, are your initials located anywhere on
this document?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Where are they located?
A. They're located on the page 62 side on the left side of the
document.
William Eppright, III - Direct
MR. MENDELOFF: Your Honor, we move the admission of
Government Exhibit 453.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 453 is received, and you may publish it if
you wish.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Would you read that to the ladies and gentlemen of the
jury.
A. Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Can't see it.
MR. MENDELOFF: I'm sorry. There you go.
THE WITNESS: The document reads: "Staffers," end of
sentence. "But the real value of our attacks today lies in the
psychological impact, not in the immediate casualties," end of
paragraph.
"For one thing, our efforts against the system gained
immeasurably in credibility. More important, though, is what
we taught the politicians and the bureaucrats. They learned
this afternoon that not one of them is beyond our reach. They
can huddle behind barbed wire and tanks in the city or they can
hide behind the concrete walls and alarm systems of their
country estates, but we can still find them and kill them. All
the armed guards and bulletproof limousines in America cannot
guarantee their safety. That is a lesson they will not
forget."
William Eppright, III - Direct
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Now, which portions of this exhibit were highlighted when
you recovered it from the envelope out of Defendant McVeigh's
car?
A. The portion that was highlighted was, "But the real value
of our attacks today lies in the psychological impact, not in
the immediate casualties." And then skipping down,
"credibility," period. "More important, though, is what we
taught the politicians and the bureaucrats. They learned this
afternoon that not one of them is beyond our reach. They can
huddle behind barbed wire and tanks in the city, or they can
hide behind concrete walls and alarm systems at their country
estates."
Q. Let me just interrupt you. Shortly after this point, did
the highlighting -- type of highlighting change?
A. Yes, sir, it did.
Q. As you're reading, would you indicate how it changed.
A. The remainder of that sentence appeared as a double
highlighting.
Q. More thick highlighting?
A. Yes, sir. It appeared to be highlighted twice. It
appeared to be twice as thick.
Q. Are you aware of any record that preserved the appearance
of Government Exhibit 453, this clipping, as you found it when
you first opened the envelope?
William Eppright, III - Direct
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. Let me direct your attention to Government Exhibits 451B
and 453A.
A. 451B and 452A.
Q. 453A.
A. I have those.
Q. And what are those?
A. Those are two separate photographs depicting the contents
of the envelope at various stages.
Q. And do they reflect the -- excuse me, both sides of
Government Exhibit 453 as it appeared when you removed it from
the envelope?
A. Yes, sir. Government's Exhibit 451B would reflect how it
appeared when that particular stack was first unraveled.
Q. And do we see one side of the excerpt on 451B and another
side on 453A?
A. Yes, sir, you do.
Q. Do they fairly and accurately depict the way that document
appeared on that day?
A. Yes, they do.
MR. MENDELOFF: We move in the admission of Government
Exhibit 451B and 453A.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. MENDELOFF: May we publish 451B?
William Eppright, III - Direct
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. MENDELOFF: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Directing your attention to Government Exhibit 451B. What
side of the clipping is depicted in that photo?
A. That would be the side from page 61 of The Turner Diaries.
Q. Does that contain any highlighting?
A. No, sir, it does not.
MR. MENDELOFF: Sorry, your Honor, that's not it.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. And let me ask you now to look at Government Exhibit 453A.
What is that?
A. That is a photograph from the page 62 clipping of The
Turner Diaries.
Q. Does that contain the highlighting you referenced?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And can you point out on that page -- or let me ask you
what is enclosed in the circle, underlined. If I can do it.
What is enclosed within that circle?
A. The writing, but we -- "But we will find them and kill
them."
Q. And when you referred to the more bold highlighting, is
that what you were referring to?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Now, let me ask you to direct your attention to Government
William Eppright, III - Direct
Exhibit 454.
A. I have that.
Q. What is Government Exhibit 454?
A. Government's Exhibit 454 is a clipping containing a quote
from S. Adams, and it also contains a handwritten notation.
Q. Where did you retrieve Government Exhibit 454?
A. The exhibit was retrieved from the sealed envelope
enclosing the stack of documents located on the front seat of
Timothy McVeigh's vehicle.
Q. How does the condition of this clipping and handwritten
note compare to the state in which you found it when you first
opened the envelope on April 21, 1995?
A. It appears darker in color and contains additional
handwritten notations. Put on there by individuals from the
FBI laboratory.
Q. Are your initials included?
A. Yes, they are.
MR. MENDELOFF: We move the admission of Government
Exhibit 453, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. MENDELOFF: May we publish this, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes. Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. And, sir, would you read what is written on this exhibit
William Eppright, III - Direct
into the record, please?
A. Yes, sir. The clipping reads: Quote, "When the Government
fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the
Government, there is tyranny," end quote, S. Adams. And then
in the handwritten notation states: "Maybe now, there will be
liberty."
Q. All right. Did you make any record to preserve the
appearance of Government Exhibit 454, the clipping with the
handwritten notation as you found it when you first opened the
envelope that day?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Let me ask you to direct your attention to Government
Exhibit 454B. What is that?
A. That's a photograph which I directed to be taken of the
clipping containing the quotation as it appeared in the
envelope and the contents of the envelope.
Q. Does that fairly and accurately reflect the appearance of
Government Exhibit 454 when you first found it?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government
Exhibit 454B, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. MENDELOFF: May we publish that?
THE COURT: Yes.
William Eppright, III - Direct
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Is that it?
MR. MENDELOFF: That's it. Thank you.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Does that accurately reflect where in the stack of
documents you found it?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Let me ask you to direct your attention to the outer margin
of this page, where your hand -- where there is a hand with a
pencil. Whose hand is that?
A. That would be my hands.
Q. Okay. And what is the reason you have a pencil in your
hand?
A. I have the pencil in the hand to initial and date each
document.
Q. And what is the other reason you had a pencil in your hand?
A. To complete a log that I was keeping.
Q. Let me ask you to direct your attention next to Government
Exhibit 456. What is this?
A. I have that.
Q. What is this?
A. It's an 8-1/2-by-11 sheet of paper containing a number of
clippings that have been cut and pasted to it and a Xerox copy
of a document contained in the middle.
Q. All right. Where did you obtain this document?
A. This document was obtained from the sealed envelope located
William Eppright, III - Direct
on the front seat of Timothy McVeigh's vehicle.
Q. Does the condition of this page with pasted-on clippings --
how does the condition of the page with pasted-on clippings
compare to the state in which you found it when you first
opened the envelope?
A. It is darker in color from the latent fingerprint
processing and portions of the document contain highlighting
which have been removed by the latent fingerprint processing,
and it also includes additional initials and markings from FBI
laboratory personnel.
Q. Are your initials located on this document?
A. Yes, sir, they are.
Q. Do you know what happened to the highlighting?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. What happened?
A. It was removed by the latent fingerprint processing.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government
Exhibit 456, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. MENDELOFF: May I use the ELMO for this one, your
Honor, please?
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Now, sir, first, can you indicate for us, does this
William Eppright, III - Direct
document indicate or display the cut-and-pasted method of its
construction?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Let me direct you to a portion of the document as I pick up
a page, a portion of a page. Is that what you're referring to?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Pasted together?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you make any record to preserve the appearance of
Government Exhibit 456 as you found it when you first retrieved
it from the envelope?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Let me direct your attention to Government Exhibit 456A.
A. I have that.
Q. What is that?
A. That's a picture which shows how the document appeared,
enclosed in the sealed envelope.
Q. Does it fairly and accurately reflect the appearance of
that page when you first retrieved it from the envelope on the
21st of April?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government
Exhibit 456A, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: No objection.
THE COURT: Received. You may show it.
William Eppright, III - Direct
MR. MENDELOFF: Yes, your Honor, please.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Now, Agent Eppright, I'm going to ask you to read the
various portions of this document, starting with the portion on
the left-hand side. What is the heading of that cutting?
A. The heading is "The American Response to Tyranny."
Q. All right. And how does that begin?
A. That begins, "At sunrise, on Wednesday, April 19, 1775 --"
Q. Let me stop you there. You said April 19. What does the
printed portion of this document state as the date?
A. The printed portion states April 29.
Q. Has there been a change made?
A. Yes, sir, there has.
Q. What change is that?
A. The change has been that the 29th has been altered to
reflect the 19th.
Q. All right. Go ahead and continue to read, please.
A. "At sunrise, on Wednesday, April 19, 1775, 400 government
troops arrived in Lexington, Massachusetts, to disarm the
citizens so as to destroy any potential resistance to the
growing tyranny of government in that time. About 100
colonists, none of whom had any strictly personal reason for
becoming involved in what was about to occur, gathered with
their assault rifles on the green just above the bridge.
No family members were in jail, neither had they been shot by
William Eppright, III - Direct
the British. No economic gain motivated those men to stand
against the British forces. No monetary value could have been
placed on the risk to life that they faced. They stood, and
fought, on principle for their rights and for liberty. And
once that historic day-long battle began, farmers and merchants
from miles around came to join the fight against the
government.
"How many of us have thought about the brave stand at
Lexington -- the armed confrontation which started the War For
Independence and resulted in the creation of our beloved United
States of America? Today, however, most people will not become
concerned enough about their freedom to shut off their
televisions and look out their doors until something affects
them personally and directly. The motto of many American
militias was, quote, 'Don't tread on me,' end quote, which was
symbolized by a coiled rattlesnake -- an animal which when left
to exist peaceably threatens no one but when trodden upon
strikes as viciously and with as deadly an" effort (sic) "as
any creature on earth."
Q. Now, that last portion of the sentence was highlighted with
a Magic Marker; is that right?
A. Yes, the portion that reads, "which when left to exist
peaceably threatens no one."
Q. And does that -- does that highlight continue after that?
A. Yes, sir. It continues with, "when left to exist peaceably
William Eppright, III - Direct
threatens no one, but when trodden upon strikes as viciously
and with as deadly an" effort "as any creature on earth."
Q. Is there another portion of this document which is also
highlighted?
A. Yes, sir, there is.
Q. What portion is that?
A. In the middle of the document, there is a Xeroxed quote
taken from John Locke.
Q. The Xeroxed quotation you're talking about is -- the one
that you're talking about is the one that I'm focusing on here
now?
A. That's correct.
Q. Would you please read the highlighted portion into the
record.
A. Yes, sir. Quote, "I have no reason to suppose that he who
would take away my liberty, would not, when he had me in his
power, take away everything else; and therefore, it is lawful
for me to treat him as one who has put himself into a 'state of
war' against me and tell him if I can, for to that hazard does
he justly expose himself, whoever introduces a state of war and
is aggressor in it -- John Locke, 'Second Treatise of
Government.'"
Q. All right. Now, below that, is there another portion which
ends with another highlighted section?
A. Yes, sir, there is.
William Eppright, III - Direct
Q. Ask you to focus on that.
I'm sorry. I only ask you to return to the John Locke
quote and the last sentence. I think you misread it. Starting
with "and," after the semicolon: "state of war."
A. ". . . state of war and is aggressor in it." End quote.
Q. No, no. I'm sorry, John Locke. ". . . 'state of war'
against me"; semicolon. See that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Read the rest of that sentence, please. I think you
misread it.
A. ". . . 'state of war' against me; and kill him if I can,
for to that hazard does he justly expose himself, whoever
introduces a state of war and is aggressor in it. John Locke."
Q. Let me direct your attention to the bottom portion of that
page, where there's another highlighted section, and ask you to
read that section beginning with "The recent," beginning with
the words, "The recent 51-day . . ."
A. "The recent 51-day siege and massacre of nearly 100 men,
women and children in Waco, Texas, was a crime of the greatest
magnitude. It was a cruel, sadistic, brutal crime. It was a
crime which violated nearly every article of the Bill of Rights
and every civil right of the" rebellious "religious group which
lived at that facility. It resembled the burning and
obliteration of Christian cities and the annihilation of their
inhabitants by Mogul hordes in earlier centuries."
William Eppright, III - Direct
Q. As you read this next subparagraph, would you indicate what
part is highlighted.
A. Yes, sir. It continues, "There is no longer any doubt,"
and then in capital letters that are highlighted, "the U.S.
Government has declared open warfare on the American people."
Q. Finally, let me direct your attention to the second and
bottom portion on the right side of that page, where there is
also highlighting. Please read that paragraph.
A. "However, the enemies of freedom -- who are the enemies of
America, must be made to know that we will not only resist
their evil agenda, their imposed decadence, and their
oppression, but we will physically fight! They must know that
we will not shrink from spilling their blood. The great Thomas
Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and third
president of the United States set the example for patriots
when he said, quote, 'The tree of liberty must be refreshed
from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants, it is
its natural manure.'"
Q. Thank you. Let me ask you -- let me direct your attention
to another document which was previously admitted, Government
Exhibit 451B. And is this exhibit, Government Exhibit 456 the
cut-and-pasted page captured within this photograph?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Where is it located?
A. It's the bottom sheet that encases a number of other
William Eppright, III - Direct
documents placed on top of it.
Q. And what is the proximity of Government Exhibit 456, the
cut-and-pasted page, to The Turner Diaries, "Value of our Tax
Today" clipping?
A. It encloses it.
Q. What is the proximity of Government Exhibit 456 to the
cut-and-paste page "maybe now, there will be liberty" clipping?
A. It encloses it, also.
Q. Let me direct your attention to Government Exhibit 27.
A. I have that.
Q. What is that?
A. That is a copy of Government's Exhibit 456, a Xerox copy of
Government's Exhibit 456, with one part missing.
Q. Was Government Exhibit 27 among the materials you removed
from the envelope out of Defendant McVeigh's Mercury on
April 21, 1995?
A. No, it was not.
Q. Do you know from your own knowledge where Government
Exhibit 27 came from?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Now, let me ask you to look back at Government Exhibit 456
and focus your attention on the pasted portion in the center of
the page.
Did you find any other version of that quote in the
envelope out of Defendant McVeigh's Mercury?
William Eppright, III - Direct
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Let me ask you to direct your attention to Government
Exhibit 451.
A. I have that.
Q. What is Government Exhibit 451?
A. It's an original handwritten quote that is the same as the
John Locke quote.
Q. Does it appear to be the source of the photocopy that
appears in the center of Government Exhibit 456?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Where did you find Government Exhibit 451?
A. Enclosed in the sealed envelope which was located on the
front seat of Timothy McVeigh's vehicle.
Q. How does the condition of this quote, handwritten quote,
original copy, compare to the condition that you found it in
when you first opened that envelope?
A. It is darker in color due to the latent fingerprint
processing and contains additional notations of FBI laboratory
personnel.
Q. Did this document have any highlighting?
A. No, it did not.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government
Exhibit 451, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
William Eppright, III - Direct
MR. MENDELOFF: May we publish that, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Now, what steps have you taken to determine whether this
version of the John Locke quote that you read to us a few
minutes ago was the original version of that handwritten
excerpt that was included within Government Exhibit 456?
A. I had compared the two and attempted to match unique
characteristics of each document.
Q. And were you able to do that?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Let me show you Government Exhibit 458. Please direct your
attention to that.
A. I have that.
Q. What is Government Exhibit 458?
A. Government's Exhibit 458 is an 8-1/2-by-11 sheet of paper,
which one side appears to be a cartoon with an article
entitled, "Waco Mission a Success," and the reverse side
contains "The American Response to Tyranny" article and two
other articles.
Q. Did it contain highlighting when you removed it from the
car?
A. Yes, sir, it did.
Q. Is that completely gone at this point?
A. No, sir. It is not.
William Eppright, III - Direct
Q. Has it been faded in any way?
A. Yes, it has.
Q. And for the reason you described earlier; is that right?
A. That's correct, from the latent fingerprint processing.
Q. Did you put your initials on this document?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government
Exhibit 458, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Are you aware of any record that preserved the appearance
of Exhibit 458 when you opened it?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. What is that?
A. A photograph that I directed to be taken.
Q. Let me direct your attention to Government Exhibit 458A.
What is this?
A. That's a photograph of the document as it appeared in the
sealed envelope enclosed which was located on the front seat of
Timothy McVeigh's vehicle.
Q. All right. Does it fairly and accurately depict the way
the document -- one page of the document looked that day?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government
William Eppright, III - Direct
Exhibit 458A, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. MENDELOFF: May we publish it, Judge?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Would you please direct your attention to the portions of
this document where there is highlighting. Let me direct you
first to the column on the left side where it says, "Waco
Mission a Success." Is there highlighting in the first
paragraph?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. Can you tell us what the highlighted portions read?
A. "Executions" is highlighted.
Q. All right.
A. And then -- do you want me to continue?
Q. Yes, please.
A. "They deployed in a military manner against American
citizens. They slaughtered 80-plus people, committed acts of
treason, murder, and conspiracy . . ."
Q. Now, is the bottom paragraph -- does the bottom paragraph
include any highlighting as well?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Would you read that paragraph and tell us which portion was
highlighted.
William Eppright, III - Direct
A. Do you want me to read the whole paragraph?
Q. Yes.
A. "If the heat gets a little high they'll throw us some
yellow-livered piece-of-shit bureaucrat to quiet us down, but
all in all, they'll get away with it." And then highlighted
is: "This country's in trouble guys, bad trouble, and it isn't
coming from any street criminal."
Q. Now, let me direct your attention to the center portion of
that page. Is there a column that begins with the name George
Washington?
A. Yes, sir, there is.
Q. Is there any portion of that column that is highlighted?
A. Yes, there is, the bottom portion.
Q. Would you read the entire paragraph and the highlighted
portion.
A. "But no issue has drawn the military into civilian law
enforcement like the 'war on drugs.' Under that banner, the
government has begun an orgy of seizures that make mockery of
the supposed sanctity of private property and constitutional
guarantees of reasonable search and seizure, and due process of
law."
Q. And that's the end of the highlighted portion on that
paragraph?
A. On that paragraph, yes, sir.
Q. Why don't you -- for completeness' sake, why don't you
William Eppright, III - Direct
finish reading that paragraph?
A. "Citizens are given assurances we must surrender a liberty
here and a constitutional right there to regain domestic
security."
Q. Now, the next paragraph, does that begin with highlighting?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Is that highlighting different in quality or size from the
other highlighting on the page?
A. Yes, sir, it's thicker and darker.
Q. Would you read that paragraph indicating where the
highlighting exists.
A. "While sifting the foul ashes of Waco, where power gone mad
backed Lady Liberty into a corner and shot her in the head,
Soldier of Fortune has learned the 'drug issue'. . ."
Q. Now, where did the highlighting end?
A. The highlighting ended at "shot her in the head."
Q. And for completeness' sake again, please finish that
paragraph.
A. ". . . Lady Liberty into a corner and shot her in the head.
Soldier of Fortune has learned the 'drug issue' may be more of
a ruse than a reason for this march down the slippery slope
toward martial law."
Q. And finally, does the last paragraph also contain some
highlighting?
A. The next paragraph does, yes, sir.
William Eppright, III - Direct
Q. I'm sorry, next paragraph. And would you read that
paragraph in total, indicating where the highlighting exists?
A. The paragraph reads: "As the Waco trial slowly unfolded in
federal court in San Antonio, testimony" -- and then
highlighting -- "by Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearm
agents, the Gestapo of G-men" -- end of the highlighting --
"reluctantly revealed that ATF's raid training was led by Army
Special Forces." Do you want me to continue?
Q. Just to the end of the page.
A. "Reporters ran for the phones, and Army spokesmen confirmed
involvement of Green Berets in training some 80 ATF agents, as
part of final preparations for the bloody raid on the Branch
Davidians' religious compound."
Q. Finally, at the top of the page, is there a cartoon?
A. Yes, sir, there is.
Q. And let me focus the monitor on that cartoon and ask you to
read what the bubble says within the cartoon.
A. It says, "This is the FBI! We are currently poking holes
in your house to inject CS gas! Do not panic! Send out your
children! We know you're in there and we know you have Bibles
and a copy of the Constitution!"
Q. Now, on the reverse side of the page, I believe you
indicated you found a copy of "The American Response to
Tyranny" article that you had mentioned earlier?
A. Yes, sir.
William Eppright, III - Direct
Q. In addition to that, was there another article, two other
articles contained on that page?
A. Yes, there is.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: What exhibit?
MR. MENDELOFF: I'm sorry, Government Exhibit 458.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Has it been admitted?
MR. MENDELOFF: It has. That's the one we were just
looking at. This is the other side.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Okay.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. And let me direct your attention to the article located on
the right-hand side of the page. That begins, "Justice is not
done until the guilty . . ." Is that right?
A. That's correct.
THE COURT: I suggest we take a break from this.
MR. MENDELOFF: Very well. We're going to move on.
THE COURT: No, we're going to recess first.
MR. MENDELOFF: Okay.
THE COURT: You may step down. And we'll have you
back in 20 minutes.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Members of the jury, we'll recess at this
time with the usual caution. Please don't talk about anything
connected with the case during the time of this recess and
we'll resume in about 20 minutes.
William Eppright, III - Direct
You're excused.
(Jury out at 3:15 p.m.)
THE COURT: 3:35.
(Recess at 3:15 p.m.)
(Reconvened at 3:35 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
(Jury in at 3:46 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please continue.
MR. MENDELOFF: Thank you.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Agent Eppright, let me direct your attention to another
document, Government's Exhibit 450, please.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And can you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what
Government's Exhibit 450 is?
A. Government's Exhibit 450 is a photocopy of a number of
individual articles, and it's entitled, "How to Beat the
Government's Terrorist Goon Squads," and it's on an 8-1/2-by-11
sheet of paper.
Q. You said it was entitled, "How to Beat the Government's
Terrorist Goon Squads." That is the title of the entire
document, or is that the title of a portion of the document?
A. It's the title of a portion.
Q. Where did you find Government's Exhibit 450?
A. I found Government's Exhibit 450 in the sealed envelope
William Eppright, III - Direct
which was located on the front seat of Timothy McVeigh's
vehicle.
Q. How does it compare to its appearance when you took that
document out of the envelope for the first time on April 21?
A. It is darker in color due to the latent fingerprint
processing.
Q. Anything else?
A. Yes. I believe it had yellow highlighting on it.
Q. And is that highlighting still present, or has that been
removed by the latent fingerprint process?
A. It's been removed by the latent fingerprint processing.
Q. And is there any other item that's different on this
document than it was when you first reviewed that document?
A. Yes, sir. It has additional notations from FBI laboratory
personnel.
Q. Are your initials contained on this document?
A. Yes, they are.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government's
Exhibit 450, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. MENDELOFF: May we publish it?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. MENDELOFF: Sorry, Judge -- is it coming? We're
having technical problems.
William Eppright, III - Direct
THE COURT: I guess you may do it. The question is
can you do it.
MR. MENDELOFF: I have that problem a lot, your Honor.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Now, let me ask you to look at Government's Exhibit 450.
You mentioned that a portion of it had been -- was entitled,
"How to Beat the Government's Terrorist Goon Squads." At what
portion was that?
A. The portion on the right-hand side of the document.
Q. And then is the document made up of two other separate
documents?
A. It appears to be at least two and, I think, more than two.
Q. All right. Now, are you aware of any record that was made
to preserve the appearance of this document when you first
retrieved it from the envelope?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. And what is that?
A. A photograph which I directed to be taken.
Q. Let me direct your attention to Government's Exhibit 450A.
A. I have that.
Q. All right. What is that?
A. That is a copy of the photograph which was taken of the
document as it appeared in the sealed envelope located on the
front seat of Timothy McVeigh's vehicle.
Q. And does that fairly and accurately reflect the appearance
William Eppright, III - Direct
of the document when you first removed it from the envelope?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government's
Exhibit 450A, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. MENDELOFF: May we publish it?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Without getting into the content of this document, let me
ask you to look at it and tell us whether that photograph
accurately reflects where the highlighting was on this document
when you retrieved it from the car?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Now, let me direct your attention next to Government's
Exhibit 452.
A. I have that.
Q. What is it?
A. It is a small sticker.
Q. And where did you retrieve this sticker from?
A. I retrieved the sticker from the sealed envelope which was
located on the front seat of Timothy McVeigh's vehicle.
Q. Does it look any different from when you retrieved it from
the envelope?
A. Yes, sir. It is discolored due to the latent fingerprint
William Eppright, III - Direct
processing.
Q. Did it have any highlight?
A. No, it did not.
Q. Did you place any identifying marks on this document?
A. Yes, sir. I placed my initials and date, and it also
contains other markings from FBI laboratory personnel.
MR. MENDELOFF: The Government moves the admission of
Government's Exhibit 452, Judge.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. When you've noted your fingerprints -- excuse me -- your
initials are on the document, do you see your initials on this
document?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Let me ask you to look within the red circle. What is
that?
A. That is my initials and date, which I placed on the
document at the time of my retrieval.
Q. Are similar initials -- do similar initials appear on all
the other documents that you've mentioned?
A. Yes, sir, they do.
Q. Let me ask you to direct your attention to Government's
Exhibit 459.
A. I have that.
William Eppright, III - Direct
Q. What is that?
A. It is an 8-1/2-by-11 sheet of paper with an article
entitled, "U.S. Government Initiates Open Warfare Against
American People."
Q. And where did you obtain this exhibit?
A. I obtained this -- I obtained this exhibit from the sealed
envelope which was located on the front seat of Timothy
McVeigh's vehicle.
Q. And how does the condition of this document compare with
the way it looked when you first retrieved it?
A. It is darker in color due to the latent fingerprint
processing, and it also contained highlighting which has been
removed by the latent fingerprint processing.
Q. All right. Did you place your initials on this document?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government's
Exhibit 459, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. MENDELOFF: And may we publish that, Judge?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. And how many sides does this document have?
A. This document has two sides.
Q. Did you create any record of the way that document looked
William Eppright, III - Direct
with its highlighting after you removed it from the envelope?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And what record was that?
A. A photograph, which I directed to be taken.
Q. Let me direct your attention to Government's Exhibit 459A.
What is that?
A. That is a -- that is the photograph which I directed to be
taken of the document as it appeared in the envelope.
Q. Does it fairly and accurately reflect the appearance of the
document complete with the handwriting -- excuse me -- complete
with the highlighting?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government's
Exhibit 459A, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. MENDELOFF: May we publish that?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Let me move next to Government's Exhibit 460. What is
this?
A. Government's Exhibit 460 is a continuation of the previous
document entitled, "U.S. Government Initiates Open Warfare
Against American People," on one side; and on the reverse side
an article entitled, "Waco Shootout Evokes Memory of Warsaw,
William Eppright, III - Direct
'43," and it's on an 8-1/2-by-11 sheet of paper.
Q. Where did you obtain Government's Exhibit 460?
A. I obtained the document from the sealed envelope which was
located on the front seat of Timothy McVeigh's vehicle.
Q. How, if at all, does it look different from what it looked
like when you retrieved it from the envelope?
A. It is darker in color due to the latent fingerprint
processing, and it contained portions of yellow highlighting
which have been removed by the latent fingerprint processing.
Q. Did you place your initials on this document?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government's
Exhibit 460, Judge.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
MR. MENDELOFF: May we publish that?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Let me ask you first to look at the side of the document,
which you say is a completion of the article that you had just
looked at on Government's Exhibit 459, "U.S. Government
Initiates Open Warfare Against American People." What side of
the page is -- excuse me. What side of the document is this
continuation located at?
A. On the side beginning, "Mania to Outlaw Handguns."
William Eppright, III - Direct
Q. All right. And on the other side of the document, what do
we find?
A. We find the article entitled, "Waco Shootout Evokes Memory
of Warsaw, '43."
Q. Are you aware of any record that preserved the appearance
of Government's Exhibit 460 as you found it when you first
opened the envelope?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. What is that?
A. A photograph which I directed to be taken.
Q. And does this preserve the appearance of both sides of that
document, or one side?
A. No, sir, it only preserves the appearance of the document
as it appeared in one of the two stacks which I was in the
process of removing.
Q. Ask you to direct your attention to Government's Exhibit
460A. What is that?
A. That's the photograph which was taken as the document
appeared.
Q. Is it in the same condition that it was when you retrieved
it out of the envelope?
A. No, sir, it's not.
Q. How is it different?
A. It's different from the distortion due to the latent
fingerprint processing, and the highlighting has been removed
William Eppright, III - Direct
from the -- by the latent fingerprint processing, also.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government's
Exhibit 460A.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
Yes, you may publish it.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Does that fairly and accurately reflect where the
highlighting existed on this document?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Let me ask you to move next to Government's Exhibit 461.
What is that? What is Government's Exhibit 461?
A. Government's Exhibit 461 is an 8-1/2-by-11 sheet of paper.
One side contains photocopies of a number of articles and
clippings, portions of articles and clippings, and the back
side again has a number of quotations and the Amendments to the
Constitution.
Q. Let me ask you whether or not this looks -- how does this
look different from it did -- from its condition when you
removed it from the envelope?
A. It's different from the distortion due to the latent
fingerprint processing. It contains additional notations from
the FBI laboratory.
Q. And this didn't have any highlighting. Is that right?
A. That is correct.
William Eppright, III - Direct
Q. Are your initials and date on this document?
A. Yes, sir, they are.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government's
Exhibit 461.
MR. NIGH: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
You may publish it.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Let me direct your attention to the quotation copied to the
top of the page. Have you seen that before?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. What is that?
A. That is the quotation by John Locke, the "Second Treatise
of Government."
Q. That's the one that you read previously and pointed out on
a number of occasions; is that right?
A. That is correct.
Q. Let me have you move to Government's Exhibit 462.
A. I have that.
Q. That's a photocopy of the Declaration of Independence; is
that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Where did you find this?
A. This was also enclosed in the sealed envelope which was
located on the front seat of Timothy McVeigh's vehicle.
William Eppright, III - Direct
Q. Was something written on the other side of this document?
A. Yes, sir, there was.
Q. What was that?
A. The handwritten notation, "Obey the Constitution of the
United States and we won't shoot you."
Q. That's the one that we observed in the photograph earlier
today; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And does that actually appear on the back side of
Government's Exhibit 462?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government's
Exhibit 462, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
It may be published, if you wish.
MR. MENDELOFF: Kathi . . .
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Agent Eppright, did the Declaration of Independence side of
this document contain any highlighting of any sort?
A. Yes, sir, it did.
Q. Has that been captured anywhere?
A. Yes, sir. Some of it is still visible on this document.
Q. And has it been captured -- was any record made of that
highlighting?
William Eppright, III - Direct
A. Yes, sir. A photograph was taken of that side of the
document, also.
Q. Is that Government's Exhibit 462A?
A. I have it as Government's Exhibit 462, I think.
Q. The photograph?
A. The photograph I have is 462B.
Q. Okay. 462B: Is that the photograph that was taken of that
document?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does it fairly and accurately reflect the appearance of the
document with the highlighting right after you took it out of
the envelope?
A. This shows the reverse side of the handwritten side. This
is how it appeared as I was removing the documents. This would
have been the last document in the envelope. Yes, it does
appear that way.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government's
Exhibit 462B, your Honor.
MR. NIGH: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
Publish.
MR. MENDELOFF: Nothing further, your Honor. Thank
you.
THE COURT: Do you have questions, Mr. Nigh?
MR. NIGH: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Please proceed.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I have some defense exhibits I
would like to provide to the Government and to the Court and to
the witness.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I also have a list of the
exhibits for the Court.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. NIGH: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Mr. Eppright, my name is Rob Nigh. I'm one of the
attorneys for Tim McVeigh. You and I have never met before,
have we?
A. No, we have not.
Q. First what I would like to do is direct your attention to
some of the exhibits you referred to during your direct
examination. And if we could, do you still have them in front
of you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Or copies?
A. I do. They're pretty much out of order at this point.
Q. We'll try to work with that. First I'd like to direct your
attention to Government's Exhibit No. 27.
A. I have that.
William Eppright, III- Cross
Q. And that contains the article on "American Response to
Tyranny"? Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, that one you did not find in Mr. McVeigh's car; is
that right?
A. That is correct.
Q. So it came from a source independent of Mr. McVeigh?
A. I do not know where it came from.
Q. At least you know it didn't come out of his car?
A. That's correct.
Q. That same article appears in another exhibit, which I
believe you read into evidence. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Do you know which exhibit that is, with the article on
"American Response to Tyranny"?
A. The "American Response to Tyranny" article appeared twice,
and this particular Government's Exhibit 27 appeared in its
entirety -- in its entirety with the Thomas Jefferson quote on
the side not attached to it.
Q. And the one that you read into the record was Government's
Exhibit 456; is that right?
A. I believe so.
Q. Can you take a moment there and find 456 and see if that's
it?
A. I believe that's it.
William Eppright, III- Cross
MR. NIGH: 456, I believe, is already admitted into
evidence.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Now, the "American Response to Tyranny" article: That
contains a description of the Battle of Lexington and
Concord -- is that correct -- in 1776?
A. 1775.
Q. 1775. Pardon me.
And you -- you indicated on your direct examination
testimony that the printed version said April 29, but this had
been marked through and it indicated April 19. Is that right?
A. On Government's Exhibit 456; that's correct.
Q. On the other one, was it not marked through?
A. On the other one, it is April 29; that's correct. It's not
marked through.
Q. Do you know whether the Battle of Lexington and Concord
occurred on April 19 or April 29?
THE COURT: From his own knowledge?
MR. NIGH: He looked pretty old to me, your Honor.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. As a matter of historical fact.
A. I believe that April 19 is a holiday in the Massachusetts
area.
Q. April 19.
William Eppright, III- Cross
A. I believe that's correct.
Q. So that April 19 would be the correct date?
A. I believe that's correct.
Q. All right. So it appears to be a correction to the
article; is that right?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Now, the article itself, I think you pointed out during
your direct examination testimony, about a third of the way
down, or actually about two-thirds of the way down, contains a
reference to the motto of American militias. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it says, "The motto of many American militias was,
'Don't tread on me,' which was symbolized by a coiled
rattlesnake -- an animal which when left to exist peaceably
threatens no one, but when trodden upon strikes as viciously
and with as deadly an effect as any creature on earth." Is
that right?
A. That's what it says, yes, sir.
Q. In the course of your work in this case, Mr. Eppright,
you've investigated other aspects of the case, other than Tim
McVeigh's car, have you not?
A. I did conduct a number of other crime-scene searches; that
is correct.
Q. And you are aware in connection with your duties as an FBI
agent that there was a large investigation involving Michael
William Eppright, III- Cross
and Lori Fortier; correct?
A. I'm not really aware of that particular part of the
investigation; but I've certainly heard their names, yes, sir.
Q. You were conscious of the investigation?
A. I certainly was.
Q. And did you know about a flag that they had in front of
their mobile home?
MR. MENDELOFF: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. I want to direct your attention again to "The American
Response to Tyranny" article: Did that article continue
towards the end, "The willingness to come to the aid of fellow
Americans is the very heart-throb of the spirit of liberty.
The willingness to defend our neighbors, as we would ourselves,
is the meaning and spirit of America. This spirit was missing
while the Waco siege was going on, because the American people
were being lied to and" being (sic) "subjected to propaganda by
the government and the media. Americans are better informed
and wiser now. If such a thing occurs again, the response may
well be different."
Is that what the article says?
A. With one correction. It says "lied to and subjected to."
I think you added a word in there.
Q. I apologize. With that correction, is that what it says?
William Eppright, III- Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there any indication in the article that such a thing
as Waco had occurred again?
A. Yes, sir, down below.
Q. And which part are you referring to now?
A. The recent 51-day siege.
Q. Well, wasn't that the siege at Waco itself?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. So my question is was there any indication in the article
that such a thing as the 51-day siege at Waco had occurred
again?
MR. MENDELOFF: Objection, your Honor. The article
speaks for itself.
THE COURT: Well, but he's read it; and we don't want
to have to read it. I mean, now.
Do you recall whether that's in the article anywhere
else?
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I understand the question.
There is two references to Waco.
THE COURT: The reference is the 51-day siege at Waco
had occurred again.
THE WITNESS: Since Waco?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Not that I'm aware of, your Honor.
BY MR. NIGH:
William Eppright, III- Cross
Q. Now, on the same piece of paper which you found in
Mr. McVeigh's car, there was also a clipping attached to the
page which contained a quote from Thomas Jefferson. Is that
right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And the quote was, "What country can preserve its liberty
if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people
preserve the spirit of resistance?"
Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. You made reference during your direct examination testimony
to a piece of paper which you found in the car which said, "Do
not tow. Will move by April 23." I believe that was
Government's Exhibit 447.
A. That's correct.
Q. I believe that's previously been admitted.
A. 447?
Q. Right.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that's the piece of paper you found in Mr. McVeigh's
car.
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Do you know what year of car it was?
A. I can look in my notes and tell you. I believe it was a
very old car.
William Eppright, III- Cross
Q. Let's try it this way: Does -- do you recall it was a 1977
car?
A. I don't recall specifically.
Q. Do you have your notes right there with you?
A. I don't see the year in front of me. I don't know. I was
more concerned with capturing the VIN number, but I know it was
a very old car.
Q. All right. We'll leave it at that.
The sign that is Exhibit 447: Does it say April 23 of
what year?
A. No, sir, it does not.
Q. Do you know what car Mr. McVeigh had prior to the time he
had the Mercury Marquis?
A. No, I do not.
Q. And do you know anything about had how old that car might
have been?
A. No, I sure don't.
Q. Did you look at the battery in the car, Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. We opened the hood.
Q. Did you look at the battery?
A. We would have looked at the contents under the hood, yes,
sir.
Q. All right. Did you pay any particular attention to the
battery or the cables?
A. I did not.
William Eppright, III- Cross
Q. Did the engine appear to be the engine of an old car?
A. I don't recall. That wasn't part of the search that we
were concerned with at the time.
Q. Did the car leak anything, while you had it there
conducting your search, onto the floor of the examination area?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Not anything that you checked for, anyway.
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, I'd like to direct your attention to Government's
Exhibit 450, which was previously admitted.
If it's easier, it's on the screen in front of you,
also.
A. Okay. I have it.
Q. Now, this one was entitled -- or the article on the right
was entitled, "How to Beat the Government's Terrorist Goon
Squads." Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. At least that was the occasion?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you read what appeared under it?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And in fact, what it is is an excerpt from Alexander
Solzhenitsyn's book The Gulag Archipelago, is it not?
A. Yes, sir, it appears to be that way.
Q. And what that book was about was, if you know, Russian
William Eppright, III- Cross
prisons?
A. I wouldn't know.
Q. You didn't obtain a copy of The Gulag Archipelago?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Part of the article that appears in the exhibit talks about
taking defensive actions; is that right?
A. Part of the "How to Beat the Government Terrorist Goon
Squads"?
Q. That's the one I'm talking about.
A. You might want to point it out. I don't know where you
talk about it taking defensive actions.
Q. The middle paragraph. Doesn't it state, "Or during periods
of mass arrest, people had not simply sat there in their lairs
paling with terror at every bang on the downstairs door and at
every step on the staircase but had understood that they had
nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an
ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or
whatever else was at hand."
A. Yes, sir, that's what it says.
Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to another part of the
document. Does the entire left column feature a quote from
Patrick Henry?
A. I don't believe I can read who the quote is from.
Q. Well, let me direct your attention to the last paragraph of
the quote. Does it say, "Many cry, 'Peace, peace,' but there
William Eppright, III- Cross
is no peace. The war has actually begun. Why stand we here
idle? Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at
the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God. I
know not what course others may take; but as to me, give me
liberty or give me death"?
A. Yes, sir, that's what it says.
Q. Does that sound familiar to you?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Would you associate that with Patrick Henry?
A. I would.
Q. And does it appear to be a continuation of what appears
above it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, let me, if I may, direct your attention to the bottom
right-hand part of the page. And does that appear to be a
quote from Winston Churchill?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. And does that quote read, "Still, if you will not fight for
the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you
will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so
costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight
with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for
survival. There may be a worst case: You may have to fight
when there is no chance of victory, because it is better to
perish than to live as slaves"?
William Eppright, III- Cross
Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And this was another document that you found in
Mr. McVeigh's car on April 21.
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, if I understood your testimony on direct examination,
all of these were taped to a single sheet of paper; is that
right?
A. On this particular document?
Q. Right.
A. I believe it appeared to be a Xerox copy of these various
articles.
Q. Which had appeared in other documents that you found in
Mr. McVeigh's car; is that right?
A. That's correct. I believe so.
Q. And so he had several copies of the same thing all there in
that envelope? Is that right?
A. In some instances, that's right.
Q. Now, you've indicated during your direct examination
testimony that there was highlighting on these pages. Correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. The highlighting had faded, had it not, even at the time
that you opened the envelope on April 21 of 1995?
A. I'm not a qualified document examiner; but it looked pretty
fresh to me in some places.
William Eppright, III- Cross
Q. Well, let's look, for example, at Government's Exhibit
450A, which has previously been admitted.
A. Okay. I have that.
MR. NIGH: Can we display that, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. That's a photograph that you took. Is that right?
A. I'm sorry. I have the wrong exhibit.
Yes, sir.
Q. It depicts the yellow highlighting on various places on the
exhibit; correct?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Doesn't it appear that they are darker in some places than
in others?
A. From this particular photograph, it appears that way.
Q. And it appears that some parts of it have faded over time.
Isn't that correct?
A. I would say that's correct.
Q. Now, during your direct examination testimony, you made
reference to Exhibit 453. It's also on the screen in front of
you, if that's easier.
A. Right. I see it.
Q. Find that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, I understood you to say that that was part of The
William Eppright, III- Cross
Turner Diaries. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Does it say Turner Diaries anywhere on there?
A. No, sir, it does not.
Q. On either side of the paper?
A. No, it does not.
Q. Did you learn that by getting a copy of The Turner Diaries
yourself?
A. I was given a copy of The Turner Diaries and reviewed it
myself, yes, sir.
Q. And you compared the clipping to The Turner Diaries?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And in doing that, you determined that it came from page
62; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the flip side was from page 61.
A. Correct.
Q. And in reading the copy of The Turner Diaries that you
obtained, what that section of the book was about and what
appears on page 62 was about was a fictional account of events
that were supposed to have happened on November 9 of 1991.
Isn't that right?
A. I just compared the clipping with the portion in The Turner
Diaries. I didn't read it any further than that.
Q. You didn't see how that chapter began?
William Eppright, III- Cross
A. No, sir, I didn't.
Q. All right. Well, then, let's look at the back side, which
would have been on page 61. It's talking -- well, first of
all, the front page that you read into evidence during your
direct examination was about these attacks today; is that
right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, page 61, which was the preceding page, talked about
the attacks that are referenced on page 62. Isn't that right?
A. That wasn't the way I read it.
Q. All right. Well, let's look at page 61. Does that
reference attacks?
A. Sounds like it to me.
Q. And the attack referenced is a mortar attack on the Capitol
in Washington, D.C. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what a mortar is?
A. I don't know the contents of it.
Q. Well, suffice it to say, it's not a truck bomb, is it?
A. No, sir. I don't know.
Q. You understand it to be a military weapon that shoots
projectiles? Would that be right?
A. That would be my understanding of it.
Q. All right. Now, if I could, I want to turn your attention
to Government's Exhibit 454, which I believe has previously
William Eppright, III- Cross
been admitted. It's on the screen in front of you, if
that's --
A. Yes, I see it. I see it on the screen.
Q. I think that's sufficient for our purposes.
This is the sticker that "When the Government fears
the people, there is liberty." Is that the one?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Now, there was something on the back of that, was there
not, when you found it in Mr. McVeigh's car on the 21st?
A. Yes, sir, there is.
Q. And it was part of an article about efforts to defeat the
Brady Bill. Is that right?
MR. NIGH: Why don't you put up the back side.
THE WITNESS: It could be read that way. I don't have
the entire contents; but it does indicate that.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Well, the part that you do have: It appears to be an
article, does it not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the article indicates, "Well, that's part of my
contribution to defense of freedom, this call to arms. In the
past, I have put to use the above points. I intend to become
more active in the future. I would rather fight with pencil
lead than bullet lead. We can win this war in the voting
booth. If we have to fight in the streets, I would not be so
William Eppright, III- Cross
sure. Those guys have helicopters and tanks. Assault rifles
and 223's are ineffective against an Abrams tank or Apache
helicopter. All too often in the past, we gutsy gun owners
have lost the battle because we failed to fight. The Brady law
could have been defeated in Congress if gun owners had become
involved in electing officials and communicating to those
officials what was expected of them. The Brady Bill passed by
the thinnest of margins. The next bills will make Brady look
mild. Start your defense today. Stamps are cheaper than
bullets and can be more effective."
Did I read that correctly?
A. Yes, sir, you did.
Q. And is that one of the documents that you found in Tim
McVeigh's car on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. April 21, actually.
Now, I'd like to direct your attention to Government's
Exhibit 458, which has previously been admitted.
A. I have that.
Q. This appears to be three separate articles. Is that
correct?
A. It appears that way to me.
Q. And it's a photocopy of the same thing that appears in
Government's Exhibit 456 and Exhibit 27.
A. "The American Response to Tyranny"?
William Eppright, III- Cross
Q. Right.
A. I don't know for sure if those exhibit numbers are right.
Q. You've seen that before?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you've seen that before on documents you took out of
Mr. McVeigh's vehicle on April 21?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So there were multiple photocopies of "The American
Response to Tyranny"?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Now, on the back of that document, there was a
cartoon. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And there was an article about the armed assault on the
Branch Davidian compound in Waco. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that article about the Branch Davidians: At the end of
the article, does it indicate, "As the Waco trial slowly
unfolded in Federal Court in San Antonio, testimony by Bureau
of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, ATF, agents, the Gestapo of
G-men, reluctantly revealed that the ATF's raid training was
led by Army special forces. Reporters ran for the phones, and
Army spokesmen confirmed involvement of Green Berets in
training some 80 ATF agents as part of the final preparations
for the bloody raid on the Branch Davidians' religious
William Eppright, III- Cross
compound"?
Did I read that correctly?
A. Yes, sir, you did.
Q. Is that one of the items that was highlighted in
Mr. McVeigh's materials?
A. Portions of that paragraph were.
Q. And I believe you identified those under direct
examination. Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, I believe I did.
Q. Now, I'd like to direct your attention to Government's
Exhibit 459. It's on the screen in front of you, if you'd
rather use that.
A. Okay. I have that.
Q. Did you look at that article closely?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did it contain a quote from Thomas Jefferson: "A
government big enough to supply everything you need is big
enough to take everything you have"?
A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
Q. Now, if I could, I'd like to direct your attention to
another reference to Thomas Jefferson, Exhibit 460. That's one
of the documents you found in Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And the very top of the page is a quote from Thomas
Jefferson, is it not? It's on the screen.
William Eppright, III- Cross
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the quote is, "The spirit of the times may alter, will
alter. Our rulers will become corrupt, our people careless.
They will be forgotten, and their rights discarded. They will
forget themselves, but in the sole faculty of making money and
will never think of uniting to effect a due respect for their
rights. The shackles, therefore, will remain on us long, will
be made heavier and heavier, until our rights shall revive or
expire in a convulsion."
Was that pretty close?
A. I think that's exactly right.
Q. Then after that, there is an article about Waco, comparing
it to the memories of Warsaw in 1943.
A. Correct.
Q. And this particular article, the bottom of the page
indicates that it was taken from the letter-to-the-editor
section of the March 15, 1993, edition of the Wall Street
Journal. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, the article itself compares the ATF's armed assault on
the Branch Davidians to the 1943 raid of SS troops on a Jewish
ghetto. Isn't that right?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And the article states, "The BATF invited the U.S. news
media to document the BATF assault to show the American public
William Eppright, III- Cross
how dangerous the Branch Davidians are. The SS had
propagandists to document its assault to show the German public
how dangerous the Jews were." Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. The same page contains the quote from Thomas Jefferson
about the tree of liberty, does it not?
A. Yes, sir. It says, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed
from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants," by
Thomas Jefferson.
Q. And that's just another photocopy of the same thing that
you've identified before. Is that right?
A. I wouldn't say it's just another photocopy, no, sir.
Q. It's a photocopy of the same quote that appears elsewhere
in other documents?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I'd like to direct your attention, if I may, to Exhibit
460A, which is your photograph of 460. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it shows the highlighting that appeared on the document
on April 21.
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Among the items highlighted is the quote from Winston
Churchill; is that right?
A. I don't see that -- I don't see a quote from Winston
Churchill on here.
William Eppright, III- Cross
Q. It's a little bit difficult to tell in the photograph
precisely what's highlighted. Is that right?
Do you see the name "the great Patrick Henry"? Does
that appear to be highlighted, too?
A. The -- yes, sir, "the great Patrick Henry" does.
Q. We won't spend the time to find Winston Churchill.
Let me direct your attention, if I may, to
Government's Exhibit 461, previously admitted into evidence.
Have you found that one?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. This is the photocopied page which has a picture of the
American eagle --
A. Yes, sir; that's correct.
Q. -- prominently; and then it has the -- a photocopy of the
John Locke "Second Treatise of Government" quote again; is that
right?
A. That's correct, yes, sir.
Q. It also has a quote from Thomas Jefferson which indicates,
"The course of history shows that if government grows, liberty
decreases"; is that right?
A. Yes, sir. That's correct.
Q. Then it has the Winston Churchill quote again.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then it also has a quote from Samuel Adams. Is that
right?
William Eppright, III- Cross
A. Yes, it does.
Q. "If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of
servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home
from us in peace. We ask not your counsel or arms. Crouch
down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set
lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our
countrymen."
Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Also found in Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. That's correct.
Q. It also contains a quote from Thoreau. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to
one who is striking at the root." Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, on the back of that same document are the first ten
amendments to the United States Constitution. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, I'd like to direct your attention to Government's
Exhibit 462, previously admitted. It's on the screen in front
of you, also.
A. I see it on the screen.
Oh, here it is. Yes, sir, I have it.
Q. That appears to be the Declaration -- a copy of the
William Eppright, III- Cross
Declaration of Independence; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Beginning, "When in the course of human events it becomes
necessary," etc., etc.
A. Correct.
Q. And it contains the entire Declaration and has a photocopy
of the signatures; right?
A. Mine is very hard to read, but I'll agree with you on that.
Q. You recognize John Hancock's signature on the bottom?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I thought you might.
This is one of the documents you found in
Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. That's correct.
Q. And it had underlining and highlighting?
A. Yes, sir, I believe it did.
Q. You'd agree with me that one of the copies of the
Declaration of Independence found in Mr. McVeigh's car had
highlighting; correct? Whether it was on this one or not, I
don't think matters.
A. I have a -- yes, sir, it does contain highlighting.
Q. Like many of the other documents that you found; right?
A. That's correct.
Q. On the same page is a quote from John Adams, the second
president of the United States. Is that right?
William Eppright, III- Cross
A. Thank you.
Yes, sir.
Q. That quote was, "You have rights antecedent to all earthly
governments, rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by
human laws, rights derived from the great legislator of the
universe." Is that right?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Do you know, Mr. Eppright, from your work in connection
with this case whether Mr. McVeigh gave copies of these
materials to any other people?
MR. MENDELOFF: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Let me ask it this way: Do you have any personal knowledge
about that?
A. Personal knowledge? No, sir.
Q. I want to talk about the process for a moment,
Mr. Eppright, of the actions that you undertook with the
Mercury Marquis on April 21. You were essentially in charge of
the search and the evidence collection from the car. Is that
right?
A. I was in charge with the coordination and the retrieval of
the evidence collected. That's correct.
Q. And if I understood you correctly, the search began at
6:40 p.m. and continued on until almost midnight, till
William Eppright, III- Cross
11:59 p.m.
A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
Q. And people that participated in the search were yourself
and Richard Strobel of the ATF, Edward Bender of the ATF,
William Peters of the FBI, Ronald Kelly of the FBI, Stephen
Burmeister of the FBI, William Davitch of the FBI, and Louis
Hupp -- also Andrew Grindstaff. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, Mr. Burmeister was there from the FBI laboratory
specifically for the purpose of looking for explosives residue.
Is that right?
A. I don't know what his whole entire purpose of being there
was. I know he was looking for -- yes, explosive residues; but
what else he was looking for, I do not know.
Q. Well, you knew that it included looking for explosives
residue. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you said that he started by taking air samples. Tell
us about that. What did he do to take air samples?
A. Well, he actually started by what he said was vacuuming the
door handles.
Q. With a vacuum cleaner?
A. No, sir. I'm not sure what technique he used. I wouldn't
know anything about it.
Q. Were you watching?
William Eppright, III- Cross
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Can you tell us what it looked like?
A. Yes, sir, I can. His procedure, or what he did?
Q. What you observed him doing to the door handles.
A. I just observed him -- what appeared to be to take a sample
of any contents that would be on the door handles.
Q. How did he go about taking that sample of what might be on
the door handles?
A. I couldn't really tell you.
Q. Did he have a brush? I mean --
A. I don't recall.
Q. Okay. Do you know how he went about taking air samples
inside the car?
A. No, sir, I sure don't.
Q. Were you able to see him do that?
A. Yes, sir, I could see him inside the vehicle.
Q. What did it look like he was doing?
A. Looked like he was taking air samples.
Q. I'm kind of slow sometimes, but I don't know -- I don't
have any idea what that would look like.
A. He had a number of different pieces of equipment; and what
they were or what they're called, I can't tell you.
Q. Do you remember what they looked like?
A. I know at one point he took vacuumings, and he would have
used an evidence-type vacuum cleaner; but other than that, I
William Eppright, III- Cross
really can't tell you. I know he had a machine set up and was
testing different things, and I really don't know what he was
doing.
Q. Was he testing for explosives residue?
A. I wouldn't know that.
Q. You understood that he was looking for explosives residue
in conducting these tests; is that right?
A. As part of his test, yes, sir.
Q. Now, you, yourself, in connection with your role in this
case, obtained some swabbings from different locations, did you
not?
A. No, sir, I did not. Agent Burmeister did all the
laboratory field work on the vehicle; and he would have handed
different processes to me. And I was just the evidence
custodian. I accepted what he did and gave it an item number
and a description.
Q. I'm talking now about what occurred on April 24, 1995 at
South Robinson and 5th Street.
THE COURT: What's the question?
MR. NIGH: I'm trying to refresh his recollection,
your Honor, about it.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Let me direct your attention, if I may, to what's been
marked for identification as Defendant's Exhibit O-13. You
should have a file folder in front of you.
William Eppright, III- Cross
A. Yes, I have that.
Q. Does that reflect a report by you which was completed on
April 24 of 1995?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Does that indicate that you took some swabbings at South
Robinson and 5th Street?
A. No, sir, it doesn't.
Q. You just documented the process? Is that what happened?
A. Yes, sir. I accompanied Mr. Bender, Ed Bender, and Rick
Strobel; and they conducted all the analysis work. And I just
received what they handed me and itemized it and made the
paperwork.
Q. All right. And then did you send it on to the FBI
laboratory, or did they take it with them to the FBI
laboratory, if you know?
A. I do not know.
Q. 5th and Robinson: Where is that in relation to the Murrah
Building?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. Were you in the vicinity?
A. I -- I'm not sure. I assisted this same-type procedure on
a number -- I remember one time we were pretty close to the
Murrah Building, yes, sir. I don't know if this is the
specific case or not.
Q. All right. You don't remember this specific instance, but
William Eppright, III- Cross
you remember doing things like this; correct? Taking
swabbings?
A. I didn't take any swabbings.
Q. Well, documenting the process of taking swabbings,
accompanying other agents that were taking swabbings?
A. I remember doing it on at least the two occasions of the
vehicle and one other time, and perhaps this is the time.
Q. And was the purpose of the swabbings to find explosives
residue?
MR. MENDELOFF: Objection, your Honor. It's way
beyond what the witness testified about.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Your role in this case continued into the fall of 1995, did
it not?
A. I believe in the fall of 1995, I spent 30 days at Oklahoma
City at the task force, yes, sir.
Q. And part of that was to review videotapes; is that right --
and other evidence?
A. I -- yes, as I recall.
Q. And was part of what you were trying to do in November of
1995 -- was part of that trying to identify John Doe No. 2?
MR. MENDELOFF: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. NIGH: If it's beyond the scope of direct, it
William Eppright, III- Cross
seems more expeditious to do this now.
THE COURT: I sustained the objection as being beyond
the scope of direct.
MR. NIGH: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. In the file folder of defense exhibits in front of you, I'd
like to direct your attention to Defendant's Exhibit O-14.
A. I have that.
Q. Does that document in front of you -- does that document in
front of you have the article in reference to an American --
called, "The American Response to Tyranny"?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. And does it also have the John Locke quote?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then does it have the reference to the 51 -- the recent
51-day siege at Waco?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Some of the same quotes that you've identified from
documents taken from Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. That's correct.
Q. And in fact, it appears to be photocopies of them. Is that
right?
A. Well, this is a photocopy, so I don't -- I don't understand
your question.
Q. Well, does it look to be -- the documents -- some of the
William Eppright, III- Cross
documents you found in Mr. McVeigh's car were photocopies;
right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Including "The American Response to Tyranny"?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the -- there was a photocopy of the John Locke "Second
Treatise of Government" quotation. Is that right?
A. Yes. I believe on a document much like this one; that's
correct.
Q. And this appears very similar to some of the same things
you found in Mr. McVeigh's car. Is that right?
A. Very similar, yes, sir.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, I'd move for the admission of
Defendant's Exhibit O-14.
MR. MENDELOFF: I object, your Honor. There is no
foundation for this.
THE COURT: Well what -- yeah, we don't know what this
is.
MR. NIGH: We can link it up later. This is a copy of
an exhibit I expect the Government will admit or attempt to
admit later.
THE COURT: Well, it's not admissible under the
present foundation.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Let me direct your attention, if I may, to Defendant -- let
William Eppright, III- Cross
me go back to O-14 for just a moment, if I may. Defendant's
Exhibit O-14 is not a document that you took out of
Mr. McVeigh's car, is it?
A. I really can't tell by what's in front of me. I wouldn't
know if it was or not.
Q. Does it have your initials anywhere on it?
A. Not on this sheet of paper, it doesn't; but I don't know if
there is a reverse side -- or it looks like part of it may even
be cut off.
Q. Is there anything on this document that indicates that it's
one of the things you took out of Mr. McVeigh's car?
THE COURT: You're asking him about this specific
paper; right?
MR. NIGH: That's correct, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: I don't believe I took it out of
Mr. McVeigh's car.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. It also has an FBI laboratory designation on it, does it
not?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. That's not something that you would have put on something
you took out of Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, let me direct your attention, if I may, to Defendant's
Exhibit O-15.
William Eppright, III- Cross
A. I have that.
Q. Another photocopy of the John Locke quote?
A. That's correct.
Q. Does that have your initials on it anywhere?
A. No, sir, it doesn't; but again, it's just a one-sided copy,
and I'm not going to say that my initials wouldn't be on the
reverse side.
Q. Okay. I won't try to make you say that.
It has an FBI laboratory seal on it? Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Government's Exhibit -- Defense Exhibit O-16.
A. I have that.
Q. That appears to be a small clipping of the John Adams
quotation. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. This appears to be a pretty small clipping.
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Did you remove a clipping, that small from Mr. McVeigh's
car?
A. I removed a similar clipping, yes, sir; but I believe it
was different in contents.
Q. It was the Sam Adams quote instead of the --
A. I believe it was a different quotation.
Q. All right. Do you think that that -- do you think that the
document depicted in McVeigh Exhibit O-16 is one that you
William Eppright, III- Cross
removed from Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. I don't believe it is.
Q. Let me direct your attention to Defense Exhibit O-17. Does
that appear to be another copy of the article which compares
the assault on the Branch Davidians with the assault on the
Warsaw Ghetto in 1943?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. With the other quotes that appear at the bottom?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do your initials appear anywhere on this document?
A. No, sir, they don't.
Q. Does that appear to be one of the ones that you removed out
of Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. It looks a lot like one that I did remove out of
Mr. McVeigh's car.
Q. Is there anything on it that makes you think that it's one
of the same ones that you removed? I mean physically the same
document, or just a photocopy of the same material?
A. There is nothing that would indicate to me that I removed
this one out of his car, no, sir.
Q. And this one has the FBI laboratory designation; right?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Let me direct your attention, if I may, to Defendant's
Exhibit O-18.
A. Yes, sir.
William Eppright, III- Cross
Q. Does that appear to be a photocopy of the Patrick Henry
quote on the left column?
A. Yes, I believe we talked about this one earlier.
Q. And also, the quote from Alexander Solzhenitsyn's book, The
Gulag Archipelago?
A. That's correct.
Q. Does this have any indication on it that it's one of the
ones you removed from Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. Under the same theory as I previously testified to, no, it
doesn't.
Q. And it also has an FBI laboratory designation?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. I'd like to direct your attention to Defendant's Exhibit
O-19. Does this have a photocopy of "The American Response to
Tyranny"?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The quote from John Locke's "Second Treatise of
Government," hand-printed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then a reference to the siege of the Branch Davidians.
A. That's correct.
Q. Is there anything on this document which indicates that
it's one of the ones you took from Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. Again, under the same theory, no, there isn't.
Q. I'd like to direct your attention to Defense Exhibit O-20.
William Eppright, III- Cross
A. I have that.
Q. This is the -- this is a -- appears to be a photocopy of
the American eagle again?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Correct?
The quote from Thomas Jefferson about the course of
history. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. The handwritten quote from John Locke, "Second Treatise of
Government"?
A. Correct.
Q. The quote from Winston Churchill?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is there anything on this document which makes you believe
that you took it out of Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. No, there isn't.
Q. It also has the FBI laboratory designations; is that right?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. I'd like to direct your attention to Defendant's Exhibit
O-21.
A. I have that in front of me.
Q. This is a picture of the cartoon of the assault on a house
with a tank.
A. That's correct.
Q. And this -- a copy of this appeared in the materials that
William Eppright, III- Cross
you took out of Mr. McVeigh's car. Is that right? But it was
superimposed on some other documents.
A. Well, I'd have to compare the two. I don't recall.
Q. Well, look at O-22 for a moment.
O-22 looks more similar to a Government exhibit, does
it not?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And the cartoon which appears in O-21 appears at the top of
O-22?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. And do you believe that O-21 is one of the same documents
you removed from Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. No, sir, I don't believe I removed this document from
Mr. McVeigh's car.
Q. And this one has the FBI laboratory sticker; right?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. O-22 appears very similar to one that you removed from
Mr. McVeigh's car; is that right?
A. Yes, sir, it does.
Q. Does it have any indication on it that it is in fact one
that was removed from Mr. McVeigh's car? In other words, do
your initials appear anywhere on it?
A. No, sir, they don't.
Q. It also has the FBI laboratory designation; right?
A. Yes, it does.
William Eppright, III- Cross
Q. O-23 is another copy of the Declaration of Independence; is
that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are your initials anywhere on that document?
A. No, they're not.
Q. O-25: Is this yet another copy of the quote from Thomas
Jefferson, the article which compares the Waco assault to the
assault on the Warsaw Ghetto?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Does that appear to have your initials on it, or does that
appear to be one of the ones you removed from Mr. McVeigh's
car?
A. It does not have my initials on it, no, sir.
Q. I'd like to direct your attention to O-27. This one has a
quote from Montesquieu. Is that right? Very top?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Do you recall seeing that before in the items that you took
from Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. I don't recall, no, sir.
Q. It does have the quote from Alexander Solzhenitsyn and The
Gulag Archipelago. Right?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And some of the other quotes that you've seen on documents
taken from Mr. McVeigh's car. Is that right?
A. Well, it has the one you mentioned; and it has the same
William Eppright, III- Cross
title as another document. Yes, it does.
Q. But that does not appear to be one of the ones that you
actually took out of Mr. McVeigh's car on the 21st.
A. No, it does not.
Q. If I understand what happened, Agent Eppright, when you
reviewed these materials in Mr. McVeigh's car and a lot of
these quotations and photocopies, some of them appeared more
than once. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And they were contained within a business-size envelope
that could have been addressed and mailed?
A. I didn't hear the last part of your question.
Q. That could have been addressed and mailed?
MR. MENDELOFF: Objection, your Honor. I'm not
sure -- that's vague.
THE COURT: Are you talking about the form of the
envelope was such that it could be addressed and mailed?
MR. NIGH: Precisely.
THE WITNESS: You've lost me. I don't understand the
question.
THE COURT: Well, the question was, were these
materials in an envelope and the envelope was in a form that
could be addressed and mailed?
THE WITNESS: It could be addressed to an individual
in May?
William Eppright, III- Cross
THE COURT: Mailed.
THE WITNESS: Oh, "and mailed." I'm sorry.
THE COURT: Put in the mail.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, sir.
Yes, it did appear that it could be addressed and
mailed.
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. And if I understood you also correctly, the documents that
we just went through contain photocopies of many of the same
things that you found in Mr. McVeigh's car. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
MR. NIGH: Your Honor, may I have just a moment?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. NIGH: That's all I have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you have any redirect?
MR. MENDELOFF: Just half a minute, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Agent Eppright, let me show you Government's Exhibit 454,
which Mr. Nigh asked you about. Do you recall this document?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Do you recall Mr. Nigh asking you or reading to you a
portion of this document which referred on the -- or which was
from the back of the document which indicated, "I would rather
William Eppright, III - Redirect
fight with pencil lead than bullet lead"? Do you remember
that?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Was there any writing on the back of that document?
A. No, sir, there was not.
Q. Where do you find writing?
A. I find writing on the side that says, quote, "When the
government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people
fear the government, there is tyranny." S. Adams.
That contains the handwriting notations.
Q. And the handwriting notation was, "Maybe now, there will be
liberty"?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is there a comma after the word "now"?
A. Yes, sir, there is.
MR. MENDELOFF: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Recross?
MR. NIGH: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: You want the witness to remain available,
I take it.
MR. NIGH: Yes, your Honor.
MR. MENDELOFF: Very well, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Well, it's about 2 minutes to 5. I think
we're going to waste a couple of minutes instead of calling
another witness; so we're going to send you home early again
today, members of the jury. But, of course, please do follow
the cautions that we have always given and will always give to
you to remember to keep open minds until you've heard it all.
And of course, we're just getting under way; so please do not
discuss the case among yourselves or with any persons, nor come
into contact with anything that might appear in any newspapers,
magazines, radio, television, whatever, so that you can do your
duty in this case and decide according to the law and the
evidence.
You're excused till 9:00 tomorrow morning.
(Jury out at 4:58 p.m.)
THE COURT: Mr. Hartzler?
MR. HARTZLER: Could Ms. Wilkinson address the Court
about a couple of logistical issues relating to large exhibits?
THE COURT: All right.
MS. WILKINSON: Your Honor, tomorrow we intend to
introduce the model of downtown Oklahoma City and one of the
large pieces of the truck debris, and we ask that we be
permitted to set up the model tomorrow and have it covered so
it -- it won't be for the first witness but it will be for the
second witness -- so we don't have to take a long break and
also to bring in the large piece and have it covered and sit in
the back of the courtroom.
THE COURT: Have defense counsel seen these?
MS. WILKINSON: Yes, they have, your Honor.
MR. JONES: We have, your Honor.
THE COURT: Any objection to them?
MR. NIGH: No, your Honor, there is not.
THE COURT: All right. Sure.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
THE COURT: How big is this --
MS. WILKINSON: The model is quite large. It will run
the length of counsel table and a little further; and then we
can break part of it off to move it so the jury can see it, and
the rear axle is on a pulley that's --
THE COURT: I'm not so concerned about that as I am
about the size of the model.
MS. WILKINSON: It's quite long, but we --
THE COURT: Are we going to trip over it, or --
MS. WILKINSON: Pardon?
THE COURT: Are you going to trip over it?
MS. WILKINSON: I hope not. We've practiced so that
we can show the entire model to get it in and then removed one
part so we can move it closer to the jury so they can see it as
the witness uses it.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. WILKINSON: Thank you.
THE COURT: You have my permission to do that.
We'll be in recess till 9:00.
(Recess at 5 p.m.)
INDEX
Item Page
WITNESSES
Charles Hanger
Direct Examination Continued by Ms. Ramsey 5372
Redirect Examination by Mr. Mendeloff
William Eppright, III,
Direct Examination by Mr. Mendeloff
Cross-examination by Mr. Nigh
Redirect Examination by Mr. Mendeloff
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS
Exhibit Offered Received Refused Reserved Withdrawn
414A 5400 5400
415A 5398 5398
447 5408 5408
448 5412 5412
448A 5414 5415
450 5446 5446
450A 5448 5448
451B 5424 5424
451 5437 5437
452 5449 5449
453 5422 5422
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS (continued)
Exhibit Offered Received Refused Reserved Withdrawn
453A 5424 5424
453 5426 5426
454B 5427 5427
456 5429 5429
456A 5430 5430
458 5439 5439
458A 5440 5440
459 5450 5450
459A 5451 5451
460 5452 5452
460A 5454 5454
461 5455 5455
462 5456 5456
462B 5457 5457
466 5403 5403
468 5403 5403
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBITS
Exhibit Offered Received Refused Reserved Withdrawn
O-14 5489
* * * * *
REPORTERS' CERTIFICATE
We certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from
the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. Dated
at Denver, Colorado, this 28th day of April, 1997.
_______________________________
Paul Zuckerman
_______________________________
Kara Spitler