OKC Bombing Trial Transcript - 04/25/1997 16:23 CDT/CST
04/25/1997
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH,
Defendant.
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REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury - Volume 62)
컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴�
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 9:00 a.m., on the 25th day of April,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK M. RYAN, United States Attorney for the
Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400,
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
JOSEPH H. HARTZLER, SEAN CONNELLY, LARRY A. MACKEY,
BETH WILKINSON, SCOTT MENDELOFF, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, AITAN
GOELMAN, and VICKI BEHENNA, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
STEPHEN JONES, ROBERT NIGH, JR., MICHAEL ROBERTS,
RICHARD BURR, RANDALL COYNE, and ROBERT WARREN, Attorneys at
Law, Jones, Wyatt & Roberts, 999 18th Street, Suite 2460,
Denver, Colorado, 80202; JERALYN MERRITT, 303 East 17th Avenue,
Suite 400, Denver, Colorado, 80203; CHERYL A. RAMSEY, Attorney
at Law, Szlichta and Ramsey, 8 Main Place, Post Office Box
1206, Stillwater, Oklahoma, 74076; CHRISTOPHER L. TRITICO,
Attorney at Law, Essmyer, Tritico & Clary, 4300 Scotland,
Houston, Texas, 77007, appearing for Defendant McVeigh.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 9:00 a.m.)
THE COURT: Morning.
MR. HARTZLER: Morning, your Honor.
THE COURT: Are we ready for the jury?
MR. HARTZLER: We are.
THE COURT: Then we'll bring them in.
(Jury in at 9:01 a.m.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury, good morning.
ALL: Good morning.
THE COURT: Before we proceed with the calling of the
first witness, I just want to have a little understanding with
you about the possibility -- and it always is a possibility
because of the amount of publicity that has been given and will
continue to be given, I'm sure, to the trial. In the event
that any of you should come across anything inadvertently or
accidentally or somebody should attempt to talk with you or in
front of you about anything connected with the trial, I want to
tell you how to handle that. The thing to do is just write a
note about it. Don't talk to any other jurors about it, of
course. Just write a note with respect to whatever it is that
happened and give it to the staff, who will give it to me; and
then we can deal with it.
You're not sequestered. You're not living in a
vacuum. You're living in the real word; and obviously there
are always, no matter how hard -- attempt to avoid any of the
publicity or comments about the case. It could happen.
So I just wanted to let you know how to handle it if
it does happen. So anytime that something like that has
occurred, you just write a little note -- it doesn't have to be
a little note, it can be a big note, an adequate note -- that
deals with whatever occurred, give it to me, and we'll look
into it, take care of it. So that's just another precaution.
Now, having heard from the lawyers on both sides with
the opening statement as to what you could expect to hear, we
begin now to actually hearing the evidence and call for the
Government's first witness.
MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, the Government calls
Cynthia Lou Klaver, and she will be questioned by Mr. Ryan.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Please come in and raise your right hand to be sworn
by the clerk here .
(Cynthia Lou Klaver affirmed.)
COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you. Would you have a seat,
please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name, please.
THE WITNESS: My name is Cynthia Lou Klaver,
K-L-A-V-E-R.
COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan?
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Good morning.
A. Good morning.
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
Q. Would you tell the members of the jury where you live.
A. Well, I live in Oklahoma City, 2219 Dawn Marie; middle of
Oklahoma City.
Q. And do you have a family?
A. I do. I have a son that's almost one year old and a sister
that lives with me in Oklahoma City.
Q. How long have you lived in Oklahoma?
A. 11 years.
Q. Would you tell the jury what you do for a living in
Oklahoma.
A. Well, in -- I am an attorney -- I have been an attorney for
the Oklahoma Water Resources Board up until last year when I
took a promotion as assistant division chief, so I've served as
an attorney most of the time I've been in Oklahoma.
Q. And not everybody may know what the Water Resources Board
is, so would you take a moment and just explain the functions
and purpose of the Water Resources Board.
A. Well, the Water Resources Board is a state agency in
Oklahoma, and it's responsible for overseeing all the water use
in Oklahoma; sets the water quality standards; oversees the
dams, floodplain development program; has a low interest rate
financial program available for water infrastructure; and we do
technical studies. But planning, that's what the water board
does in Oklahoma.
Q. Where were you born and raised?
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
A. I was born and raised in Hutchinson, Kansas.
Q. And where did you go to high school?
A. Hutchinson High School.
Q. Graduating in?
A. 1974.
Q. Where did you -- what did you do after high school?
A. Went to college at Kansas State University and graduated in
1979 from Kansas State, Manhattan, Kansas.
Q. With a degree in?
A. English, B.A. in English.
Q. Now, did you go to law school after that?
A. I worked for awhile, and then I went back to law school;
and I went to Washburn University School of Law in Topeka,
Kansas, and graduated from law school in 1985.
Q. Have you continuously practiced law from 1986 until today?
A. For the -- for the water board, uh-huh.
Q. Your entire employment has been with the Water Resources
Board?
A. As an attorney, uh-huh, yes.
Q. Now, would you tell the ladies and gentlemen where the
Water Resources Board is located.
A. The Water Resources Board, its address is 600 North Harvey;
and it's located at the intersection of 5th Street and Harvey,
across the street from the Murrah Building.
Q. All right. Now, on the desk there with you is a folder
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
with some exhibits in it. You should have -- and tell me if
you do -- a picture on the screen below you.
A. I don't have a picture, just a blank, blue screen.
Q. All right. Now, would you turn to Exhibit No. 958.
A. Okay.
Q. Could you identify that for the jury, please.
A. It's an aerial photo of downtown Oklahoma City, color Xerox
copy.
Q. Is it a true and accurate photograph of an aerial view of
Oklahoma City?
A. It looks to be a true and accurate photograph.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, the Government would offer
Exhibit 958.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MS. RAMSEY: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Is it on your screen now?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Well, we'll move forward.
MR. RYAN: Would you turn on the computer.
Thank you, Miss Hasfjord.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Is it on your screen now, Miss Klaver? Is it on your
screen now?
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
A. Yes, it is. I'm sorry.
THE COURT: We've got -- I'll explain to the jury that
we're using some technology here that may require a little
experimentation before we get the rhythm of it, but we seem to
be -- do you have it in front of you, I take it, members of the
jury?
ALL: Yes.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. All right. Looking at Exhibit 958, which is on the video
here -- do you see the pen that you have at the desk there?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you show the jury -- why don't you start by circling
where the Murrah Building is located.
A. The Murrah Building is right here.
Q. Okay. Now, would you circle for the jury the location of
the Water Resources Board.
A. The Water Resources Board is this little, smaller building
here.
Q. All right. And so what is its proximity to the Murrah
Building?
A. It's just across the street, so it's probably -- it's less
than a hundred feet.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, may I approach the bench to put
an exhibit on the easel?
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Before I do that, would you look at Exhibit 940 on your --
in front of you there. Could you identify that for the jury.
A. Exhibit 940 is a copy or a diagram of the buildings
downtown around the Murrah Building and the Water Board.
Q. Does it accurately depict the downtown area?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And the location of the buildings relative to one another?
A. Yes, it does.
THE COURT: Are you going to offer this 940?
MR. RYAN: I'm sorry. Yes, I would offer Government's
Exhibit 940.
MS. RAMSEY: No objection.
THE COURT: All right, 940 is received.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Do you have a -- is there a view pointer? Could you show
the jury on that diagram the location of the Murrah Building.
THE COURT: I'm not sure the people in the back row on
the jury can see it.
Can you? We can just change --
Will you change the angle of that just a little.
How's that? Can you see it?
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Could you, by use of the pointer there, show the jury where
the Murrah Building is located.
A. This is where the Murrah Building is on 5th Street.
Q. All right. Now show the jury where the Water Resources
Board is located.
A. Right across the street a little bit at an angle is the
Water Board.
Q. All right. Thank you. Now, let's turn to April 19th,
1995. And I would like for you just to tell the jury in your
own words what happened that morning when you got up and what
you did.
A. On the morning -- it was a regular -- just a regular day.
I got up like I usually do, a little bit after 6:00 in the
morning, and fixed my coffee and had a bowl of cereal and fed
my dog and got ready for work while I was watching the news and
got to work -- drove down to work and got there about 7:30 --
and got to my office and sat down at my computer and started
working about 7:30 that morning.
Q. What kind of work were you doing that morning?
A. Well, I was preparing -- I was drafting up what we call
findings of fact, conclusions of law on a proposed board order
on a water rights proceeding that I had been a hearing examiner
in a little bit earlier that month.
Q. And what are -- you -- what takes place in an
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
administrative hearing?
A. One of my roles as an attorney is sometimes I serve as a
hearing examiner over water rights proceedings to get a permit.
An applicant comes to the Water Board, gives notice by
publication in a newspaper and certified mail to all the -- his
neighbors; and those neighbors that are concerned or object to
their -- the water use protest, and so we have a hearing.
And basically I serve in the role of a judge, very
informal hearing where we let the applicant tell me why the
application -- why he should get a permit; and the protestants
come and say why their neighbor shouldn't use water that way.
And then I draft up these -- from that hearing and all the
testimony and evidence presented, I draft up findings of fact
out of there and propose a recommendation that our board
actually votes and decides whether to approve the water right
or not. So those are the kind of proceedings I work with.
Q. So this is the Water Board's manner in which you afford due
process to the parties who are interested in the water right
involved?
A. Yeah, because water rights has -- as a property right, we
afford due process and notice.
Q. Did you have any matter scheduled for that morning, later
that morning?
A. We had a hearing set for 9:00 that morning at the board
room at the Oklahoma Water Resources Board.
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
Q. Where is your office located in the Water Resources Board?
A. My office actually was on the third floor on the north side
of the building. It's away from the Murrah Building, is where
my office --
Q. About how many people work there in the Water Resources
building?
A. At that time, there were around 80 working at the Water
Board.
Q. Your office is on the third floor, you've told us.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Where is the board room where you hold these administrative
hearings you've told the jury about?
A. When they're in Oklahoma City, we hold them on the first
floor. And the board room was an interior room about halfway
in the middle of the building on the first floor.
Q. All right. Would you briefly tell the jury what matter you
had on for hearing that morning at 9:00.
A. We had scheduled a ground water application hearing on a
farmer from around the Ardmore area, Ardmore, Oklahoma, wanted
to use his ground water under his land to sell and operate a
bottled water company. And some of his neighbors around the
area were real concerned about depleting the basin for
commercial sale of bottled water and had come wanting to
protest that application, and we were getting ready to hold
that and open it up at 9 that morning.
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
Q. What persons were given notice of this hearing and an --
excuse me -- an opportunity to attend it?
A. Roy Weikel was the farmer who wanted to start the bottled
operation, and he published in the newspaper and then he
notified his neighbors that were 1320 feet around his proposed
well locations. And so his neighbors, basically Mr. Sampson
and Mr. Grice, were concerned about the ground water basin and
wanted to protest the application; and the applicant came
with -- I think there were about four or five people came with
the applicant, his family. So we had eight people at the
hearing as well as myself and our recording secretary.
Q. So there were about ten people there in the room with you,
as I understand it?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. All right. Now, what record is kept at these proceedings?
I mean, today we have a lady who is a court reporter in front
of Judge Matsch who's taking down everything that I say and you
say to create a permanent record. What is done in that regard
with respect to the administrative hearing you were going to
conduct that day?
A. We would like to have a court reporter, but we do not have
the funds for that; so we have a little tape recorder that we
record every hearing. The people at the hearing have an
opportunity to appeal to district court any decision that the
board makes, and so we keep a record; and if it's appealed,
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
then we can transcribe off the tape. So we keep a tape of
every proceeding, and then I keep extensive notes as a hearing
examiner.
Q. Now, if you would tell the jury what happened at 9:00.
A. Well, I -- I came down to the board room and we opened up
the hearing. I have a recording secretary with me, and she
started the tape going; and I opened up the hearing, and we had
just gotten underway. I was trying to explain and put them at
ease about being an informal proceeding and how we would go
about holding the hearing, and we had just gotten started
when --
Q. Now, you have looked, have you not, and listen to
Government Exhibit 942, which is an audiotape?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Is that the audiotape that your secretary was maintaining
for the administrative hearing that started at 9:00 on
April 19th?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. I take it that is the standard procedure as you've
described to the jury.
A. Yes.
Q. And is it the customary and ordinary practice of the board
to make a tape recording of all of these hearings?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer Government's
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
Exhibit 942.
MS. RAMSEY: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 942 is received.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. It's a true and accurate recording of what occurred that
day?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Do you know what time -- precisely what time the hearing
started that morning?
A. It started at 9:00.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, I would ask permission to
publish the tape.
THE COURT: You may do so.
(Exhibit 942 played.)
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Mrs. Klaver, what length of time span from the time you
started the meeting at 9:00 until we hear the explosion?
A. About two minutes.
Q. What time was the explosion?
A. 9:02.
Q. Now, we heard some voices on that tape, someone saying,
"Let's get out of here." Whose voice is that?
A. That's mine.
Q. Tell us, if you would, in your own words what happened
after the explosion.
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
A. Well, I thought the whole building was coming down on us.
I didn't see any way we were going to make it out; but
basically, the building shook and the whole ceiling fell down
in on us. And lights continued to fall even after the original
cave-in on us. And there was debris, lights, wires, lines
hanging down all over. Electricity was still running, but --
so the lights were on, and everyone was very bewildered.
And we had some elderly people in the audience that
were there for the hearing, so the recording secretary and I --
Connie Siegel Goober and I -- then tried to get everybody out,
out the -- at the door and at the exit; and I was yelling at
them to get out of the building, to get out of the building
because I really -- I thought the whole thing was coming down
on us.
I didn't realize that it wasn't just our room. When
you walk out, you couldn't go out the front door. There was
rubble piled so you couldn't get out the front door. So
everyone moved to try to go over the back and climbed over all
the debris that was in the hall and forced the door open and
got out the back door; so we got everybody out, and it was kind
of difficult.
Q. Who was the last one out?
A. I was the last one out. We were trying to get everybody
out and out of the building as quick as we could so that they
wouldn't get hurt.
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
Q. About how long did it take for you to get out of the
building?
A. I think it was about five minutes to get outside.
Q. And that was because?
A. It was -- we were all disoriented and couldn't get out the
front door -- the debris in the hall -- and had to change
direction and climb over all kinds of masonry and ceiling tiles
and things in the hall that were barricading our way to the
back door. It was very --
Q. Excuse me?
A. That's all right. I just say it seemed like a long time
trying to get out of there.
Q. Would you please turn to Exhibit 944 before you; 945, 946,
and 1003. Do you have those?
A. 944?
Q. 945, 946, and 1003.
A. Yes.
Q. Would you tell his Honor what those exhibits are.
A. Exhibit 944 is a copy of a picture of 5th Street looking
eastward towards the Murrah Building, and it shows me walking
down the sidewalk.
Q. Just in a real general way, are these the four
photographs -- are these pictures that you saw when you exited
the Water Resources Board?
A. This is what I saw when I came out and walked around the
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
building.
MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer Government's
Exhibits 944, 945, 946 and 1003.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MS. RAMSEY: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: They are received.
MR. RYAN: May I publish these to the jury?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. Would you tell the members of the jury what they're looking
at with Exhibit 945.
A. This is a picture of -- you're looking eastward down 5th
Street, which on the left-hand side of the photograph shows the
edge of the Water Board and on the right-hand side shows what's
left of the Murrah Building and the -- all the debris that was
laying there when we walked out, some of the people standing
around.
Q. And where is the -- point out, if you would, with your
marker there where the Murrah Building is.
A. This is the Murrah Building there.
Q. And where is the building that you came out of?
A. This is the Water Board -- the front -- I did -- the front
entrance of the Water Board. Here's their door right here.
Q. All right.
MR. RYAN: Now, would you erase those marks.
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
BY MR. RYAN:
Q. And Exhibit 946 again: Orient us on where we are here.
A. Okay, this is -- this, I think, right here is the post
office. The Water Board's right behind it on the left-hand
side of the picture and shows the intersection of 5th and
Harvey. And that's the Murrah Building with the smoke around
it, what's left of the Murrah Building.
Q. Now, using your pointer there that you have, would you turn
to the diagram behind you and show the jury where you are at
this point so we'll have a better sense of a vantage point.
A. I actually exited the building right here and came around;
and in this picture, I'm standing back here.
Q. And so you are looking at the Murrah Building from the
west?
A. Yeah, I'm standing to the west and looking east.
Q. All right. Now, may I ask you to look at Exhibit 944.
Now, can you see Exhibit 944 on the screen?
A. Yes.
Q. And where are you?
A. I'm -- let me just -- I'm right here, this -- that's me
walking down the sidewalk right there.
Q. And what are you doing right there?
A. I'm walking westward, away from the Water Board and the
Murrah Building. I was going down this direction to see if I
could find any Water Board employees. We weren't yet sure what
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
had happened and who was where, so I was trying to find my
co-workers.
Q. What are you -- you see the streets there beside you on
left?
A. Yes.
Q. What are we looking at on the ground there?
A. There was twisted -- twisted metal everywhere, glass all
over, debris. It looked like a war zone to me when I stepped
out. The ground was littered, covered.
Q. We'll next turn to Exhibit 1003. And again, if you would,
describe for the jury what we're looking at in this exhibit.
A. We're, once again, looking down 5th Street eastward. On
the left side is the Water Board, and at the main -- on the
right hand here is what I saw what the Murrah Building looked
like right after 9:02 that morning.
Q. As you're standing out there at the intersection of 5th and
Harvey, you said that your boss had asked you to try to account
for everyone?
A. I ran into my boss, Dee Couch, who was saying, "Find --
find Kim," our secretary. We couldn't find her; and so I
basically turned, and that's when I started walking down 5th
Street, walking west. We park our cars next to that St. Joseph
Rectory.
Q. Why don't you use the pointer, if you would.
A. A lot of us -- some of us parked here; but a lot of us
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
parked right -- there was a parking lot right here. And I
thought -- so I went down this way, thinking that when we left
the building and this was such a -- I thought most everybody
would go this way; so I turned this way to look for Water Board
people down here around the car parking lot.
Q. All right. What did you find?
A. I found a few. There were some people sitting on curbs cut
up. It seemed very desolate and quiet and smoke everywhere,
and there were -- I found a few Water Board people; but there
was still a lot unaccounted for that morning when I was there.
Q. All right. Now, did you run into Mr. Mathis?
A. I did; down where the cars were, I ran into co-worker Mike
Mathis; and he had a deep gash in his forehead. And he was
going to drive himself in his pickup down to the south clinic,
Southside Clinic in Oklahoma City. And I was aware that head
gashes are probably not a good idea to drive; so I then drove
his pickup out of that parking lot and took him to the
Southside Clinic, where he got stitches when a doctor examined
him.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. I called my sister and had her come get me down at that
clinic.
Q. And how did you spend the afternoon?
A. We all, at the Water Board, began calling each other back
and forth to see who we'd seen, who we hadn't seen, who was
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
missing, who was identified; so we were in constant contact
calling back and forth to see if anybody seen the people that
we hadn't found. So that's what we did that afternoon.
Q. And was everyone accounted for?
A. No. We were missing one employee, Trudy Rigney -- no one
had seen. So we didn't know where she was. We weren't sure
where she was.
Q. Did you ever see her alive again?
A. I did not ever see her again.
Q. What about Mr. Chipman?
A. He was rushed to the hospital, and he died a few days later
from massive head injuries from the glass that was blown into
his head. He died.
Q. And these were both employees working within the Water
Resources Board?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, did you ever have an opportunity to go
back to the Water Resources Board building?
A. I was on the first cleanup crew that they allowed in.
There was some disaster recovery team there that was cleaning
up the Water Board, trying to salvage our records and documents
and our computers, things like that, that we could. So they
didn't really know the business of the Water Board, so a few of
us had to go back in to direct them about, Well, this is
so-and-so's office and this goes where. And I was one of a few
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
that got to go in, I guess it was about a week after
April 19th. So we went in to direct, and that's when I first
went back into the building.
Q. Would you tell the jury what you observed when you went
into the building?
A. The building was virtually destroyed. Inside everything
was hanging down, twisted. It was sometimes even hard to
recognize where you were in the building because the walls were
down.
I went to my office, and I couldn't go in my door. I
went through a back wall that was now an opening instead of a
doorway. And my office -- everything was -- walls were down,
the ceiling was down, the windows were out. Everything was
wet, ruined. My computer had glass shards embedded all over
it. My law books were ruined. Everything was ruined in my
office. It was hardly recognizable. I would -- except I knew
the floor plan.
Q. Did you retrieve anything from the Water Resources Board
building when you returned a week later?
A. I did not.
Q. Excuse me?
A. I didn't, no.
Q. Would you tell us how the tape that we've marked as
Exhibit 942 got to be here with us today.
A. The Friday -- the bomb happened April 19th, which is a
Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct
Wednesday. And then the following Friday, a few of us, the
director and the division chiefs and the attorneys, got
together at the capitol and we discussed how we were going to
get started again, what we were going to do, where we were
going to get together, what to do. And that's when I mentioned
that, Well, when I had been making -- I had had a hearing that
we had a tape going. So our -- who is now our director -- he
was assistant director then -- Duane Smith -- he and the FBI
went to the building and got the tape out of the board room.
And the FBI recover