IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff, vs. TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH, Defendant. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT (Trial to Jury - Volume 62) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH, Judge, United States District Court for the District of Colorado, commencing at 9:00 a.m., on the 25th day of April, 1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver, Colorado. Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street, P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285 APPEARANCES PATRICK M. RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff. JOSEPH H. HARTZLER, SEAN CONNELLY, LARRY A. MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, SCOTT MENDELOFF, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, AITAN GOELMAN, and VICKI BEHENNA, Special Attorneys to the U.S. Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver, Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff. STEPHEN JONES, ROBERT NIGH, JR., MICHAEL ROBERTS, RICHARD BURR, RANDALL COYNE, and ROBERT WARREN, Attorneys at Law, Jones, Wyatt & Roberts, 999 18th Street, Suite 2460, Denver, Colorado, 80202; JERALYN MERRITT, 303 East 17th Avenue, Suite 400, Denver, Colorado, 80203; CHERYL A. RAMSEY, Attorney at Law, Szlichta and Ramsey, 8 Main Place, Post Office Box 1206, Stillwater, Oklahoma, 74076; CHRISTOPHER L. TRITICO, Attorney at Law, Essmyer, Tritico & Clary, 4300 Scotland, Houston, Texas, 77007, appearing for Defendant McVeigh. * * * * * PROCEEDINGS (In open court at 9:00 a.m.) THE COURT: Morning. MR. HARTZLER: Morning, your Honor. THE COURT: Are we ready for the jury? MR. HARTZLER: We are. THE COURT: Then we'll bring them in. (Jury in at 9:01 a.m.) THE COURT: Members of the jury, good morning. ALL: Good morning. THE COURT: Before we proceed with the calling of the first witness, I just want to have a little understanding with you about the possibility -- and it always is a possibility because of the amount of publicity that has been given and will continue to be given, I'm sure, to the trial. In the event that any of you should come across anything inadvertently or accidentally or somebody should attempt to talk with you or in front of you about anything connected with the trial, I want to tell you how to handle that. The thing to do is just write a note about it. Don't talk to any other jurors about it, of course. Just write a note with respect to whatever it is that happened and give it to the staff, who will give it to me; and then we can deal with it. You're not sequestered. You're not living in a vacuum. You're living in the real word; and obviously there are always, no matter how hard -- attempt to avoid any of the publicity or comments about the case. It could happen. So I just wanted to let you know how to handle it if it does happen. So anytime that something like that has occurred, you just write a little note -- it doesn't have to be a little note, it can be a big note, an adequate note -- that deals with whatever occurred, give it to me, and we'll look into it, take care of it. So that's just another precaution. Now, having heard from the lawyers on both sides with the opening statement as to what you could expect to hear, we begin now to actually hearing the evidence and call for the Government's first witness. MR. HARTZLER: Your Honor, the Government calls Cynthia Lou Klaver, and she will be questioned by Mr. Ryan. THE COURT: Thank you. Please come in and raise your right hand to be sworn by the clerk here . (Cynthia Lou Klaver affirmed.) COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you. Would you have a seat, please. Would you state your full name for the record and spell your last name, please. THE WITNESS: My name is Cynthia Lou Klaver, K-L-A-V-E-R. COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you. THE COURT: Mr. Ryan? MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. RYAN: Q. Good morning. A. Good morning. Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct Q. Would you tell the members of the jury where you live. A. Well, I live in Oklahoma City, 2219 Dawn Marie; middle of Oklahoma City. Q. And do you have a family? A. I do. I have a son that's almost one year old and a sister that lives with me in Oklahoma City. Q. How long have you lived in Oklahoma? A. 11 years. Q. Would you tell the jury what you do for a living in Oklahoma. A. Well, in -- I am an attorney -- I have been an attorney for the Oklahoma Water Resources Board up until last year when I took a promotion as assistant division chief, so I've served as an attorney most of the time I've been in Oklahoma. Q. And not everybody may know what the Water Resources Board is, so would you take a moment and just explain the functions and purpose of the Water Resources Board. A. Well, the Water Resources Board is a state agency in Oklahoma, and it's responsible for overseeing all the water use in Oklahoma; sets the water quality standards; oversees the dams, floodplain development program; has a low interest rate financial program available for water infrastructure; and we do technical studies. But planning, that's what the water board does in Oklahoma. Q. Where were you born and raised? Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct A. I was born and raised in Hutchinson, Kansas. Q. And where did you go to high school? A. Hutchinson High School. Q. Graduating in? A. 1974. Q. Where did you -- what did you do after high school? A. Went to college at Kansas State University and graduated in 1979 from Kansas State, Manhattan, Kansas. Q. With a degree in? A. English, B.A. in English. Q. Now, did you go to law school after that? A. I worked for awhile, and then I went back to law school; and I went to Washburn University School of Law in Topeka, Kansas, and graduated from law school in 1985. Q. Have you continuously practiced law from 1986 until today? A. For the -- for the water board, uh-huh. Q. Your entire employment has been with the Water Resources Board? A. As an attorney, uh-huh, yes. Q. Now, would you tell the ladies and gentlemen where the Water Resources Board is located. A. The Water Resources Board, its address is 600 North Harvey; and it's located at the intersection of 5th Street and Harvey, across the street from the Murrah Building. Q. All right. Now, on the desk there with you is a folder Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct with some exhibits in it. You should have -- and tell me if you do -- a picture on the screen below you. A. I don't have a picture, just a blank, blue screen. Q. All right. Now, would you turn to Exhibit No. 958. A. Okay. Q. Could you identify that for the jury, please. A. It's an aerial photo of downtown Oklahoma City, color Xerox copy. Q. Is it a true and accurate photograph of an aerial view of Oklahoma City? A. It looks to be a true and accurate photograph. MR. RYAN: Your Honor, the Government would offer Exhibit 958. THE COURT: Any objection? MS. RAMSEY: No, your Honor. THE COURT: Received. BY MR. RYAN: Q. Is it on your screen now? A. No. Q. Okay. Well, we'll move forward. MR. RYAN: Would you turn on the computer. Thank you, Miss Hasfjord. BY MR. RYAN: Q. Is it on your screen now, Miss Klaver? Is it on your screen now? Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct A. Yes, it is. I'm sorry. THE COURT: We've got -- I'll explain to the jury that we're using some technology here that may require a little experimentation before we get the rhythm of it, but we seem to be -- do you have it in front of you, I take it, members of the jury? ALL: Yes. THE COURT: All right. BY MR. RYAN: Q. All right. Looking at Exhibit 958, which is on the video here -- do you see the pen that you have at the desk there? A. Yes. Q. Could you show the jury -- why don't you start by circling where the Murrah Building is located. A. The Murrah Building is right here. Q. Okay. Now, would you circle for the jury the location of the Water Resources Board. A. The Water Resources Board is this little, smaller building here. Q. All right. And so what is its proximity to the Murrah Building? A. It's just across the street, so it's probably -- it's less than a hundred feet. MR. RYAN: Your Honor, may I approach the bench to put an exhibit on the easel? Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct THE COURT: All right. BY MR. RYAN: Q. Before I do that, would you look at Exhibit 940 on your -- in front of you there. Could you identify that for the jury. A. Exhibit 940 is a copy or a diagram of the buildings downtown around the Murrah Building and the Water Board. Q. Does it accurately depict the downtown area? A. Yes, it does. Q. And the location of the buildings relative to one another? A. Yes, it does. THE COURT: Are you going to offer this 940? MR. RYAN: I'm sorry. Yes, I would offer Government's Exhibit 940. MS. RAMSEY: No objection. THE COURT: All right, 940 is received. BY MR. RYAN: Q. Do you have a -- is there a view pointer? Could you show the jury on that diagram the location of the Murrah Building. THE COURT: I'm not sure the people in the back row on the jury can see it. Can you? We can just change -- Will you change the angle of that just a little. How's that? Can you see it? MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct BY MR. RYAN: Q. Could you, by use of the pointer there, show the jury where the Murrah Building is located. A. This is where the Murrah Building is on 5th Street. Q. All right. Now show the jury where the Water Resources Board is located. A. Right across the street a little bit at an angle is the Water Board. Q. All right. Thank you. Now, let's turn to April 19th, 1995. And I would like for you just to tell the jury in your own words what happened that morning when you got up and what you did. A. On the morning -- it was a regular -- just a regular day. I got up like I usually do, a little bit after 6:00 in the morning, and fixed my coffee and had a bowl of cereal and fed my dog and got ready for work while I was watching the news and got to work -- drove down to work and got there about 7:30 -- and got to my office and sat down at my computer and started working about 7:30 that morning. Q. What kind of work were you doing that morning? A. Well, I was preparing -- I was drafting up what we call findings of fact, conclusions of law on a proposed board order on a water rights proceeding that I had been a hearing examiner in a little bit earlier that month. Q. And what are -- you -- what takes place in an Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct administrative hearing? A. One of my roles as an attorney is sometimes I serve as a hearing examiner over water rights proceedings to get a permit. An applicant comes to the Water Board, gives notice by publication in a newspaper and certified mail to all the -- his neighbors; and those neighbors that are concerned or object to their -- the water use protest, and so we have a hearing. And basically I serve in the role of a judge, very informal hearing where we let the applicant tell me why the application -- why he should get a permit; and the protestants come and say why their neighbor shouldn't use water that way. And then I draft up these -- from that hearing and all the testimony and evidence presented, I draft up findings of fact out of there and propose a recommendation that our board actually votes and decides whether to approve the water right or not. So those are the kind of proceedings I work with. Q. So this is the Water Board's manner in which you afford due process to the parties who are interested in the water right involved? A. Yeah, because water rights has -- as a property right, we afford due process and notice. Q. Did you have any matter scheduled for that morning, later that morning? A. We had a hearing set for 9:00 that morning at the board room at the Oklahoma Water Resources Board. Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct Q. Where is your office located in the Water Resources Board? A. My office actually was on the third floor on the north side of the building. It's away from the Murrah Building, is where my office -- Q. About how many people work there in the Water Resources building? A. At that time, there were around 80 working at the Water Board. Q. Your office is on the third floor, you've told us. A. Uh-huh. Q. Where is the board room where you hold these administrative hearings you've told the jury about? A. When they're in Oklahoma City, we hold them on the first floor. And the board room was an interior room about halfway in the middle of the building on the first floor. Q. All right. Would you briefly tell the jury what matter you had on for hearing that morning at 9:00. A. We had scheduled a ground water application hearing on a farmer from around the Ardmore area, Ardmore, Oklahoma, wanted to use his ground water under his land to sell and operate a bottled water company. And some of his neighbors around the area were real concerned about depleting the basin for commercial sale of bottled water and had come wanting to protest that application, and we were getting ready to hold that and open it up at 9 that morning. Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct Q. What persons were given notice of this hearing and an -- excuse me -- an opportunity to attend it? A. Roy Weikel was the farmer who wanted to start the bottled operation, and he published in the newspaper and then he notified his neighbors that were 1320 feet around his proposed well locations. And so his neighbors, basically Mr. Sampson and Mr. Grice, were concerned about the ground water basin and wanted to protest the application; and the applicant came with -- I think there were about four or five people came with the applicant, his family. So we had eight people at the hearing as well as myself and our recording secretary. Q. So there were about ten people there in the room with you, as I understand it? A. Yes, that's correct. Q. All right. Now, what record is kept at these proceedings? I mean, today we have a lady who is a court reporter in front of Judge Matsch who's taking down everything that I say and you say to create a permanent record. What is done in that regard with respect to the administrative hearing you were going to conduct that day? A. We would like to have a court reporter, but we do not have the funds for that; so we have a little tape recorder that we record every hearing. The people at the hearing have an opportunity to appeal to district court any decision that the board makes, and so we keep a record; and if it's appealed, Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct then we can transcribe off the tape. So we keep a tape of every proceeding, and then I keep extensive notes as a hearing examiner. Q. Now, if you would tell the jury what happened at 9:00. A. Well, I -- I came down to the board room and we opened up the hearing. I have a recording secretary with me, and she started the tape going; and I opened up the hearing, and we had just gotten underway. I was trying to explain and put them at ease about being an informal proceeding and how we would go about holding the hearing, and we had just gotten started when -- Q. Now, you have looked, have you not, and listen to Government Exhibit 942, which is an audiotape? A. Yes, I have. Q. Is that the audiotape that your secretary was maintaining for the administrative hearing that started at 9:00 on April 19th? A. Yes, it is. Q. I take it that is the standard procedure as you've described to the jury. A. Yes. Q. And is it the customary and ordinary practice of the board to make a tape recording of all of these hearings? A. Yes, it is. MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer Government's Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct Exhibit 942. MS. RAMSEY: No objection, your Honor. THE COURT: 942 is received. BY MR. RYAN: Q. It's a true and accurate recording of what occurred that day? A. Yes, it is. Q. Do you know what time -- precisely what time the hearing started that morning? A. It started at 9:00. MR. RYAN: Your Honor, I would ask permission to publish the tape. THE COURT: You may do so. (Exhibit 942 played.) BY MR. RYAN: Q. Mrs. Klaver, what length of time span from the time you started the meeting at 9:00 until we hear the explosion? A. About two minutes. Q. What time was the explosion? A. 9:02. Q. Now, we heard some voices on that tape, someone saying, "Let's get out of here." Whose voice is that? A. That's mine. Q. Tell us, if you would, in your own words what happened after the explosion. Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct A. Well, I thought the whole building was coming down on us. I didn't see any way we were going to make it out; but basically, the building shook and the whole ceiling fell down in on us. And lights continued to fall even after the original cave-in on us. And there was debris, lights, wires, lines hanging down all over. Electricity was still running, but -- so the lights were on, and everyone was very bewildered. And we had some elderly people in the audience that were there for the hearing, so the recording secretary and I -- Connie Siegel Goober and I -- then tried to get everybody out, out the -- at the door and at the exit; and I was yelling at them to get out of the building, to get out of the building because I really -- I thought the whole thing was coming down on us. I didn't realize that it wasn't just our room. When you walk out, you couldn't go out the front door. There was rubble piled so you couldn't get out the front door. So everyone moved to try to go over the back and climbed over all the debris that was in the hall and forced the door open and got out the back door; so we got everybody out, and it was kind of difficult. Q. Who was the last one out? A. I was the last one out. We were trying to get everybody out and out of the building as quick as we could so that they wouldn't get hurt. Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct Q. About how long did it take for you to get out of the building? A. I think it was about five minutes to get outside. Q. And that was because? A. It was -- we were all disoriented and couldn't get out the front door -- the debris in the hall -- and had to change direction and climb over all kinds of masonry and ceiling tiles and things in the hall that were barricading our way to the back door. It was very -- Q. Excuse me? A. That's all right. I just say it seemed like a long time trying to get out of there. Q. Would you please turn to Exhibit 944 before you; 945, 946, and 1003. Do you have those? A. 944? Q. 945, 946, and 1003. A. Yes. Q. Would you tell his Honor what those exhibits are. A. Exhibit 944 is a copy of a picture of 5th Street looking eastward towards the Murrah Building, and it shows me walking down the sidewalk. Q. Just in a real general way, are these the four photographs -- are these pictures that you saw when you exited the Water Resources Board? A. This is what I saw when I came out and walked around the Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct building. MR. RYAN: Your Honor, we would offer Government's Exhibits 944, 945, 946 and 1003. THE COURT: Any objection? MS. RAMSEY: No, Your Honor. THE COURT: They are received. MR. RYAN: May I publish these to the jury? THE COURT: You may. BY MR. RYAN: Q. Would you tell the members of the jury what they're looking at with Exhibit 945. A. This is a picture of -- you're looking eastward down 5th Street, which on the left-hand side of the photograph shows the edge of the Water Board and on the right-hand side shows what's left of the Murrah Building and the -- all the debris that was laying there when we walked out, some of the people standing around. Q. And where is the -- point out, if you would, with your marker there where the Murrah Building is. A. This is the Murrah Building there. Q. And where is the building that you came out of? A. This is the Water Board -- the front -- I did -- the front entrance of the Water Board. Here's their door right here. Q. All right. MR. RYAN: Now, would you erase those marks. Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct BY MR. RYAN: Q. And Exhibit 946 again: Orient us on where we are here. A. Okay, this is -- this, I think, right here is the post office. The Water Board's right behind it on the left-hand side of the picture and shows the intersection of 5th and Harvey. And that's the Murrah Building with the smoke around it, what's left of the Murrah Building. Q. Now, using your pointer there that you have, would you turn to the diagram behind you and show the jury where you are at this point so we'll have a better sense of a vantage point. A. I actually exited the building right here and came around; and in this picture, I'm standing back here. Q. And so you are looking at the Murrah Building from the west? A. Yeah, I'm standing to the west and looking east. Q. All right. Now, may I ask you to look at Exhibit 944. Now, can you see Exhibit 944 on the screen? A. Yes. Q. And where are you? A. I'm -- let me just -- I'm right here, this -- that's me walking down the sidewalk right there. Q. And what are you doing right there? A. I'm walking westward, away from the Water Board and the Murrah Building. I was going down this direction to see if I could find any Water Board employees. We weren't yet sure what Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct had happened and who was where, so I was trying to find my co-workers. Q. What are you -- you see the streets there beside you on left? A. Yes. Q. What are we looking at on the ground there? A. There was twisted -- twisted metal everywhere, glass all over, debris. It looked like a war zone to me when I stepped out. The ground was littered, covered. Q. We'll next turn to Exhibit 1003. And again, if you would, describe for the jury what we're looking at in this exhibit. A. We're, once again, looking down 5th Street eastward. On the left side is the Water Board, and at the main -- on the right hand here is what I saw what the Murrah Building looked like right after 9:02 that morning. Q. As you're standing out there at the intersection of 5th and Harvey, you said that your boss had asked you to try to account for everyone? A. I ran into my boss, Dee Couch, who was saying, "Find -- find Kim," our secretary. We couldn't find her; and so I basically turned, and that's when I started walking down 5th Street, walking west. We park our cars next to that St. Joseph Rectory. Q. Why don't you use the pointer, if you would. A. A lot of us -- some of us parked here; but a lot of us Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct parked right -- there was a parking lot right here. And I thought -- so I went down this way, thinking that when we left the building and this was such a -- I thought most everybody would go this way; so I turned this way to look for Water Board people down here around the car parking lot. Q. All right. What did you find? A. I found a few. There were some people sitting on curbs cut up. It seemed very desolate and quiet and smoke everywhere, and there were -- I found a few Water Board people; but there was still a lot unaccounted for that morning when I was there. Q. All right. Now, did you run into Mr. Mathis? A. I did; down where the cars were, I ran into co-worker Mike Mathis; and he had a deep gash in his forehead. And he was going to drive himself in his pickup down to the south clinic, Southside Clinic in Oklahoma City. And I was aware that head gashes are probably not a good idea to drive; so I then drove his pickup out of that parking lot and took him to the Southside Clinic, where he got stitches when a doctor examined him. Q. What did you do after that? A. I called my sister and had her come get me down at that clinic. Q. And how did you spend the afternoon? A. We all, at the Water Board, began calling each other back and forth to see who we'd seen, who we hadn't seen, who was Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct missing, who was identified; so we were in constant contact calling back and forth to see if anybody seen the people that we hadn't found. So that's what we did that afternoon. Q. And was everyone accounted for? A. No. We were missing one employee, Trudy Rigney -- no one had seen. So we didn't know where she was. We weren't sure where she was. Q. Did you ever see her alive again? A. I did not ever see her again. Q. What about Mr. Chipman? A. He was rushed to the hospital, and he died a few days later from massive head injuries from the glass that was blown into his head. He died. Q. And these were both employees working within the Water Resources Board? A. Yes. Q. All right. Now, did you ever have an opportunity to go back to the Water Resources Board building? A. I was on the first cleanup crew that they allowed in. There was some disaster recovery team there that was cleaning up the Water Board, trying to salvage our records and documents and our computers, things like that, that we could. So they didn't really know the business of the Water Board, so a few of us had to go back in to direct them about, Well, this is so-and-so's office and this goes where. And I was one of a few Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct that got to go in, I guess it was about a week after April 19th. So we went in to direct, and that's when I first went back into the building. Q. Would you tell the jury what you observed when you went into the building? A. The building was virtually destroyed. Inside everything was hanging down, twisted. It was sometimes even hard to recognize where you were in the building because the walls were down. I went to my office, and I couldn't go in my door. I went through a back wall that was now an opening instead of a doorway. And my office -- everything was -- walls were down, the ceiling was down, the windows were out. Everything was wet, ruined. My computer had glass shards embedded all over it. My law books were ruined. Everything was ruined in my office. It was hardly recognizable. I would -- except I knew the floor plan. Q. Did you retrieve anything from the Water Resources Board building when you returned a week later? A. I did not. Q. Excuse me? A. I didn't, no. Q. Would you tell us how the tape that we've marked as Exhibit 942 got to be here with us today. A. The Friday -- the bomb happened April 19th, which is a Cynthia Lou Klaver - Direct Wednesday. And then the following Friday, a few of us, the director and the division chiefs and the attorneys, got together at the capitol and we discussed how we were going to get started again, what we were going to do, where we were going to get together, what to do. And that's when I mentioned that, Well, when I had been making -- I had had a hearing that we had a tape going. So our -- who is now our director -- he was assistant director then -- Duane Smith -- he and the FBI went to the building and got the tape out of the board room. And the FBI recover